Huh? No. I know you're playing music. [snorts] He come out trying to hurry and pull out the chair. I could be. >> So, so the chair was facing the other way. So he hit the back of it with his head and then he hit the floor >> and he went straight to he when I dropped him. [snorts] The chair was like right there and he hit his head and then he just like leaned forward and then after that he leaned forward. >> But he's >> January 2009 Lincolnshire, Illinois. A 16-month-old boy is found badly hurt at a daycare. The woman looking after him says she has no idea what happened. A few hours later, detectives sit down with her and start asking about that afternoon. At first, her story sounds simple, but as they keep asking questions, something starts to feel different. >> Baby goes to sleep cuz it's a lot it's a lot easier to control him. So, I just Why wouldn't you guys just let him keep on sleeping in his chair? I mean, >> because it was just getting towards the end of the day and there to the end of the day. I mean, wouldn't he be >> transfer the kids? That was the reason. >> Transfer them to what? >> Like put them in a different classroom when we went down. >> Was he in this classroom the whole day? Ben, >> my the classroom I was in? >> Yeah. >> I thought you'd made a comment earlier that The reason he tried keeping him awake was it because the parents were concerned that he >> Yeah, that too. He if he did fall asleep though, we would let him. But he can't sleep up until 5. After 5, he had to be awake because the mom would pick him up. >> But this was at like 3:45, right? >> It was like 4:00. Yeah. >> So why wouldn't you just let him sleep till 5? >> Because we were getting ready to start doing diapers, too. And then we had to bring over the kids because they told us as soon you know as you lose another kid. They tapped on the window. They're like, "As soon as you lose another kid, blah blah blah or whatever, bring you can start bringing them over." So we're like, "Okay, but we're going to do diapers first." So we waited a little bit and we were playing because usually he sometimes falls asleep, but he really doesn't. He'll like close his eyes and like open them and just sit there and relax. So that's why I've been keeping him awake. >> When you went up to him, was there anything coming out of his mouth or? >> No. >> So you just went up to him and said, "Ben, Ben." And he didn't respond. >> No. >> And you said you shook his arm. >> Yeah. >> And how did you know that he wasn't just sleeping? Real sounds? >> Because he would have woken up. >> Why were you shouting his name? No, he would have heard me cuz at other times when he would fall asleep on the chair, he would wake up >> if you said his name. >> Yeah. Or I'll be like, "Ben, Ben," and his eyes will open. They really would. And then after that, give like a few seconds, he'd probably try and fall asleep again. But that was why I did the call. I just I'm still trying to even think how he even got the fracture. I'm still clueless, >> right? >> I [clears throat] wish I could tell you. I have no idea. >> That's That's the same question we're trying to get answered. >> Yeah. I have no idea. Um, did you look up anything on like uh your computer at home about injuries to heads or if we didn't subpoena your record? We >> would we be able to find out? >> Would we see anything about you researching anything about infant death or anything in the last couple days? >> No, we wouldn't. And we're not going to find out from your boyfriend that, you know, you told him that you made a mistake and you accidentally dropped Ben. >> Mhm. >> We're not going to find that out cuz if that's the case. >> Yeah, I know. >> You got to tell us because we're not to hurt you. >> I know. >> We don't want to hurt you, honestly. >> Melissa, what what if Nancy accuses you doing this? Then what? >> I'm going to be questionable. I'm going to be like, why? What did I ever What did I do? You know, I've been trained really well to actually do this and I understand she's been there, but I've been trained really well and I handle even little infants younger than he does myself. >> No, I'm just saying what if she facilitates uh you know, >> and says that I did. >> Yeah. So, hey, this is what I saw. >> I'm going to be like, well, why like how what did I actually do? You know what? What is that? >> So there's no there's there's no doubt in your mind that if she >> makes an accusation that she's not going to have anything to back that up with. No doubt in your mind that if if Nancy see she's being questioned right now says, "Look, >> I'm going to come up front with you guys. >> Melissa, you know, she made a mistake. I saw it. Um I didn't know what to do. Um, this is completely out of character for me. I should have said something, but it's her responsibility. She was in there the whole time with them. Um, yeah, this is what she did. >> This is Melissa Kusinski in January 2009. She was working at a daycare in Lincolnshire, Illinois, when 16-month-old Benjamin King was badly injured. Melissa said she had no idea what happened, but when detectives began questioning her, her simple answer wasn't enough. >> Where are we at? >> I would have been like I would tell you. I would straight up tell you that I did make a mistake and I was too afraid to say something. you know, I didn't know it would actually hurt him and I would have came clean and even said to Miss Beth and Miss Sandy, here's what happened [clears throat] and that I this is what you know I his head hit the floor or wherever I this head got hit and I would have said I I am completely so sorry. I didn't mean to do this at all. That's what I would have said and I would have came clean. I wouldn't hide nothing from no one. If I knew I was doing something wrong or if I did something wrong, I would go up and I would talk to them because it would make me feel better. >> Yeah. And it's not nec it's not necessary that you did something wrong. I mean, there's sometimes accidents happen. I mean, they're unavoidable. >> Yeah. >> I mean, we've all been in car accidents. We all I mean, sometimes stuff's just unavoidable. So, if that's the case, it's not like you did something wrong, >> but we need to get to the bottom of this. And I'm sure you understand because if it was your if you had a child, you'd want us to be doing the same thing. >> I'd be questionable and trying to figure out what's going on, >> right? You'd want to know if you said, you know, you left your child in a daycare system and somebody ran into an accident >> and that led to your son, you know, maybe he had some kind of special skull or maybe he had previous injuries. I don't know. He was sick a couple days prior, but maybe this little accident is what caused it. It would just give them some closure and it would have help us clear this case out. >> Yeah, we're not saying we don't know if there was a pre-existing condition and something Sean's point is something may have aggravated it. Um, you know, there there are strange strange physical anomalies, you know, things with people that sometimes you don't know. There's a uh a thing out there where certain adults have uh uh stalls that are like eggshells, >> okay? >> And they go around their whole life without ever having a a head trauma or a head injury and then one sudden um you know, hit or fall or hit to the head and suddenly they're, you know, there could be a pre-existing condition with him. And the reason we're asking you about uh any other injuries that you may have noticed is that this something this is something that may have started, >> okay, >> and then been amplified. Okay. >> Okay. It's sort of like aggravating an old an old injury and that that may also give off the appearance of intensity. >> Yeah. And well like and like you said that too with the injury he has had bumps on his head but that wasn't from us. >> That >> um mom even said I seen him. Billy seen them. >> So was it ever documented? >> Um no because he would do them at home >> like he would do it with mom around. Who else seen that? >> Um me, Gwendy, >> the mom would sit for tell you he had >> Yeah. And she even told the doctors at the hospital that you know with these bumps on his head and hitting his head. >> I was told and >> by who? >> Um by the uh director >> uh Beth and everybody. We were all talking and Billy even asked me. They're like, "Have you noticed about the bump on the head?" And I'm like, "No, I haven't." When was this? >> This was at the hospital when they were all at the hospital with best >> Wednesday or >> Yeah, Wednesday. And they asked me, they're like, "Have you noticed about the big bump on his head?" I'm like, "No, I haven't, you know, I didn't recognize it." But I have noticed though. >> Did he have any bruises on his face? >> No. None. >> None that day. >> None. Absolutely none. >> You would have noticed. I I would notice if he did. He has really light skin. >> So, who was involved in this discussion at the hospital? >> Um, well, Beth went there cuz they wouldn't let her ride in the ambulance, so she had to take her own vehicle. And this is what she found out. And, uh, Billy even was there. >> Who? >> Billy. He even said that they saw That's her husband. >> Okay. >> He even said that he saw a big bump on his head. And they have asked me and I was like, I have not seen it at all. I didn't even recognize it. Every time he would throw his tantrum bits, it would be on the ground, like the carpet, not on the tile. >> What makes this interesting is that Melissa has already described exactly what she would do if an accident happened. She says she would report it, explain what happened, and admit that she was scared at this point. That sounds convincing, but it also gives detectives something very specific to compare against her later. >> Not on the tile. >> You would have noticed if he threw one that day, right? >> Yeah. >> And he did it. You said >> no. >> Cuz the way we're like thinking maybe in an accident, but it would be an accident that someone would know about. They would have to literally, and I don't even think they could do this, drop him, >> hit his head against something while they're walking through a door frame or literally grab him and hit him up against a wall or hit him on the top of the head with something. >> Yeah, I haven't seen anything. I give you my word on that one. I I haven't I have not seen him hit anything. I have not seen anybody pick him up literally and hit him against the wall or anything. If I would have, I report it right away. >> Did you ever report uh NY's behavior when you said she's rough with the kids and throws them into the crib? >> No, she doesn't throw them into the crib. She places them on the cats. She wouldn't throw them. >> But you said, you know, sometimes she gets aggravated. >> Sometimes she gets Yeah, she does. >> She handles them roughly. >> Not rough. Not rough roughly, but sometimes you could see the frustration in her face. >> But you said sometimes like she won't support their head. >> Yeah. >> And so to me that's almost like whip. I mean if they're not supporting their kids >> if they're like this. Yeah. Like and then they she's she's just like holding them on the outside outer side and how she holds them sometimes. And then Ben when he also too here's the thing. when he when we would have to change his diaper, he's like literally you would have to like carry and support his head because he throws his head back quite he was doing that quite a bit this week in the beginning. You just like didn't even want anything to do. He was just like this. He didn't like it when we picked him up to change his diaper. >> Who changed his diaper? >> I >> the entire day. >> Throughout the entire day. I changed him in the afternoon. I believe I changed them in the the second before that last time and that was it. >> Prior to you leaving, I'm sorry, prior to Nancy leaving to sanitize >> uh the plates, you said about an hour prior to that, she she was alone with the kids for a little bit >> cuz I went to use the bathroom, but that was when all the kids were still in seating and snack. >> Besides for that, did you step out of the room at all? No, not even. >> Go talk to your sister. >> Nope. >> Did your sister come in throughout the day? >> She was in and out through the day. Yes, she was. >> Did you Did anyone ever report the way Nancy ever handled the kids there or? >> No, I thought they already talked to her to tell you the truth because I wasn't there that long. >> I haven't been there. >> Who do you think talked to her? >> Um, probably Sandy. >> Why? I just had a curiosity that Cindy would have talen to or someone like Wendy would have talked to her or someone else that would talk into her already >> talk to him say that's not how you handle the kids >> just say like you know I know you're frustrated sometimes but >> why would you say Gwendy is she like the type of person who would would say something to her >> no it's her classroom so you know if >> is a helper too or she comes comes in at 9:00 and she starts breaks. >> Mhm. >> Around like 9:10. That 9 9 10. >> Has uh Wendy ever said anything to you? >> No, >> she hasn't. I mean, when I started and when I'm sure when my partner started, we'll as police work, other people that been doing the job for a while, they'll tell you, "Well, don't do stuff this way. Do it that way." >> They were telling me to like help out. She was telling me sometimes like help out. And then um for art or that they eat and stuff like that that she would explain. She's like we don't do it this way. Yeah. She said that but nothing other than that. No. >> Well Melissa just this this whole time thing and this injury to his head was when you were alone with him. >> I mean I don't know how you could convince us that he did. >> He was sitting. Yeah. He was sitting like there was nothing around him. or anywhere possibly that he could have hit his head. >> I'm clueless. I I don't know. >> I mean, could he dropped out from a changing table when you were changing his diaper and you're afraid to tell us? >> No, I would never do that to tell us. >> I am not going to be afraid to tell you. If I if I dropped somebody from the changing table, I would be stoked and crying, freaking out. But I would go and tell. >> But sometimes, listen, sometimes people make a mistake. >> Uhhuh. and they don't want to tell somebody because they're this economy sucks. They don't want to lose their job and say, "Hey, listen. I just dropped a kid." So then they're going to put that in your record. You get in trouble. You might be afraid and you might be like, "Well, kids fall all the time. He might be okay." And then it kind of this happens. Well, you could understand that happening because you're afraid to tell someone at the time. You don't want to lose your job. I I the only thing I kind of feel guilt a little bit about is that I wish I could have done a little bit more and help out more because of the fact my sister was doing everything because I literally felt guilty because I wasn't doing anything. I just made a call and I was just >> that's that's helpful, >> you know. >> But that's >> that that's some sometimes the most that's sometimes the most important thing you could do is to summon more advanced medical personnel. That's the most important thing. Number one, that's how we're trained, too. The most important thing you could do is get on the phone so more people come that know more than than we do. So, you did do something to help them, but we don't want you to [clears throat] be afraid and tell us cuz you know, you were afraid you're going to lose your job and you thought it would be okay because you see kids fall every day. You probably see a kid fall every day. Literally might fall down. >> We don't want you to be afraid to tell us that cuz at the end of this investigation, like we're going to have so many people working on it, so many specialists, we're going to know exactly probably what caused the injury. Right now, we got a team. They're probably closed down the nursery by now. >> I don't know. You're probably not aware that they're probably closed it down by now, but we got a team of evidence technicians and they're sketching >> crime scene investigators, CSI, >> they're sketching the room, the floors, and at the end of at the end of this might be not today or tomorrow, they're going to know exactly what caused this injury to his head. I mean, because there's there's certain there's certain things that could cause a certain injury. Yeah. >> You know, we actually have um very good photographs of his injury. >> Okay. >> And even though it's not >> Was it in the back of the head or in the front of the head? >> That's what he asked. >> I'm just I'm just kind of curious. Maybe I could rethink, you know, and maybe see if it was from the back of the head. Maybe he, you know, when some Crystal probably when she was doing CPR, when she picked him up and put him on the change table, maybe he hit his head really good cuz it bounced up a little bit. Maybe that could have been the reason when, you know, when she put him down, you know what I mean? So, like for his head to kind of bounce a little bit, but like she didn't bounce him like hard when she put him down. She was doing the CPR. I made sure I had the kids stand back and I got all the kids out of the way because I like I was saying earlier, I had the kids in the kitchen. So, >> maybe you know that's what could have happened when she was performing. >> Did you see his headphones >> a little? Yes, I did. >> And she was only trying to help. >> Yes, she was trying to help him. >> What's the table made of? What is >> um It actually had a It was a It was our changing table. It had a man on it, though. a slight bump. >> The pressure here isn't really about proving she hurt Ben. The detectives are giving her a way to explain an accident without making it sound intentional. And Melissa keeps coming back to the same fear losing her job. That becomes important because now investigators have possible reason for why someone might hide an accident even if they never meant for a child to get serious. >> He would hit his head on the man, right? >> Yeah, but it was kind the man was kind of >> causes injury. >> That's the only thing though. I'm thinking, >> is there any way that there an accident might have happened and you were afraid to tell someone cuz you thought everything would be okay? >> Yeah. No, no accidents whatsoever. >> I never Yeah. >> And what about him hitting his head and um you know, you not paying that much attention to it and then being reagravated on that changing table. Could that have happened? >> That could have with him hitting his head. Yes, but I made sure the clear way when he would when I would pick him up because when I changed him from a nap, he wasn't acting like that. He was fine. He let me change his diaper and everything. But when I place them and when I placed even every kid now in my room, I hold their head and I gently put them on the changing table so that they wouldn't hit anything. And I made sure of that. But when he would like seriously like do this and then he would like try to put him down sometimes he would hit his head on the changing table like on the map though and he would whine and cry because he didn't want to get his diaper changed. So >> and so it's safe to say 45 minutes before he started losing consciousness the only people in this room were you and Nancy. Yes. >> So, if someone did this to him, it' be >> it would be safe to say that the only people that could have done something to him would be be either you or Nancy. Is that a good if it happened within 45 minutes of this? >> I I agree. But I don't even know what I could have done to hit make him hit his head. >> But you would, like I said, this is a substantial injury. If he hit his head to cause this injury, you would know. >> I would. >> You would know. But not saying you meant it to happen, but you would know because I know you're very careful, everything, but I'm very careful with my son and I'm paranoid because of all the [ __ ] that we go through and we deal with. >> But I mean, I've hit my I've hit my son's head to tell you the truth on a door frame carrying him through. I mean, I'm not It happened. It was an accident. I didn't MEAN I THOUGHT >> YOU TOO, >> but there there's stuff I didn't mean to do that, but I mean >> it's hard to believe that there's never any accidents or I'm almost worried when he's on the changing table cuz they flay around so much and they go crazy >> and I'm afraid sometimes when I get his clothes sometimes I have to put them down on the floor because I know he'll jump right off it in one second. They're so quick babies when I put them down he turns on his stomach. I swear to God in two seconds. And he thinks it's a joke. He thinks it's a game. So, it's hard for me to believe that there's never no accidents cuz I'm only watching one. And uh you love these kids. I know you do. But when it's your own kid, you'll see some that you're really really really there's even more love for the child. No. >> And when when that stuff happens to me, even with one kid, I can't imagine how someone could take care of eight kids and they're not big mishaps. I mean, there it it just has to happen. >> Yeah. If I have seen any accident, I do report it. I do. I say something. I let them know and I even ask. >> Have you ever reported an accident before? >> Not there? No. Cuz I've never >> You've been there for a year and two months. >> I've been at the other place. I >> I mean for this company. >> For this company? Yeah. I have reported accidents. >> Like what type of accidents? >> Um bumps on the head. >> Like from what? >> What do you mean? Like did they fall the >> Yeah. When they fall or they clunch together and there would be a mark literally on their heads >> and I would report it. I get an accident report and I fill it out and then when I'm done filling out I sign it. I give it to my boss. >> They look over it and then they sign it and then we have to have the parent signature. I've done that a lot. Sometimes sometimes when all places make people do all that stuff, it's great system, but it's a pain in the butt because you're like, "Shit, he just hit his head. He'll be fine. This kid hits his head every day. I don't want to be filling out reports. I'm the only one in here. I got to watch these kids." So, you continue to watch him thinking everything will be fine. >> I check too for bumps and everything. I feel their foreheads to make sure and everything. Well, I mean, this was real apparent these marks that he had. I mean, but I just I really really Melissa, I need you to know I'm like if like you were like a family member, I would like want to scream and and say, Melissa, if you're involved in any way, please let these guys know. I would like to tell you that we're not here to hurt you, especially if it was an accident. We're not. A lot of people are afraid of the police. There's no need to be afraid of us. >> We're here to get to the bottom of this. If it was your child, we would do the same thing. We're not trying to hurt you, Kurt. >> We don't think you intentionally wouldn't hurt this kid. I swear. I don't think that. >> I I wouldn't. I >> But I I do think an accident happened. >> I agree. >> And we need to know. >> I I really I That's what I want to know though because I every time I have held him, he has been safe. He was had resting on my shoulder or [snorts] in my arms sometimes. But and then we'll walk around. He'll dance with me. We'll, you know, do dancing. But I have never in my life that I've been there even ever would seriously like do that to him because I even know for a fact too that toddlers at his age, they are sensitive. They still have growing skulls. They're very Their heads are still sensitive just like really baby ones, small tiny ones. And I understand that that their heads are sensitive. I But I would never >> We're not saying intentionally. >> I know. And I'm just saying if there was an accident, I could say something. >> I could understand why someone wouldn't. There's stuff that we're supposed to do like at work and it's a lot of protocol. And sometimes, you know, if you hurt yourself, you're supposed to fill out all these forms and you got to go to an accident review board. And it's just like, man, I don't want to deal with all this BS. I'll be fine. I don't want to say anything. So, I understand how that goes. But I want you to understand that after today, you know, we might have to talk to you about a couple things, but after today, it's going to be really hard for you to say, you know what, I was thinking and I dropped him [clears throat] and I forgot about it. You know, it doesn't seem like an accident then. But if you told us today, listen, detectives, I was changing him. He was going crazy. He fell out of the changing table. He seemed fine, so I didn't say nothing. There was no one else in the room. And >> this is where her own history becomes important. Melissa says that when children hit their heads at daycare, she normally fills out an accident report. She even explains the process from beginning to end. So when detectives point out how serious Ben's injuries were, the obvious question becomes, if reporting injuries was already normal for her, why was that? >> Listen, there was no one else in the room and I couldn't leave. I I monitored him. He seemed fine. All of a sudden, I seen him shut his eyes. I decided that at that time, I've got to get help. That he wasn't fine. If that's the case, please tell us. Please don't. >> I am telling you the truth. I did not drop him. >> I anything nothing serious. >> Did you hit him in the head? >> No. >> Did you do anything to contribute [clears throat] any of these marks on his head? >> No. >> Nothing. >> I swear nothing. >> Okay. When you say nothing serious, what do you what do you define as serious? >> That I would never put my hands on him. I don't even recall putting or hitting him. Even if he was crying or whining so bad, I get a little frustrated. Yeah. Because he's screaming, but I would deal with it. I would be like, you know, I it's understandable, but I wouldn't pick him up any other type of way. >> Melissa, you said you don't recall. I mean, it's a lot different than >> Yeah, I know. I yeah I don't I don't pick up objects. I don't want to throw them. >> But you [clears throat] just said you don't recall. >> Yeah, that's what I'm trying to explain. It's hard for me to explain. >> That means that there's a possibility that >> I did not. But I'm telling you right now though, I did not pick up anything. I did not pick up anything. I would never ever >> What do you mean pick up anything? >> I wouldn't pick up anything that had a child. It's not my child. >> So you did pick up anything child. I didn't though. If that comes to the case, if people are saying that, I didn't. >> Why would somebody say that? >> You know what? I don't know. I don't pick up things. I don't I make sure the kids are safe. I make sure they're taken care of, changed, healthy, son's there. You know, they're well taken care of. >> Well, so do you pick something up and hit him in the head with it? >> No, I did not see anything and pick it. The kids, they have back. They had like a plastic bat. Okay. He hits like things. That's it. >> Could someone hit him in the head with the plastic bat? >> The children had it. >> But would a worker a kid? >> Did you lose your patience and hit him? >> No. You sure? >> Yep. Positive. >> Cuz if you did, it's understandable. >> No, I know. >> It's very freaking stressful dealing with one baby. I know. I know. I >> I never knew it till I had my own cuz I never watched babies in my life, but it's it [ __ ] makes you lose your mind. >> I mean, those are the best words. I'm not trying to not be professional. You can lose your mind sometimes because they're go screaming. >> You're trying to get other stuff done. And that's only one. So, I can understand if someone all of a sudden they lose their mind for a second and they hit a kid. I I totally understand why someone would do that. >> We've had incidents where people just flat out black out and the next thing you know, I mean, because they get aggravated, they get frustrated. Um, we we had a lot of that with husbands and wives and domestic arguments, uh, parents with their children. >> Yeah. and he'll just flat out sit there and say, "I just blacked out." Um, and then, you know, when I I finally realized what happened, you know, I composed myself and they just went on from there. >> No, never blacked out. >> Did you ever hit a kid there? >> No. >> No. >> Nope. >> What are the other workers? Are they ever going to say you hit someone? >> No. They will never see them. >> Why? They've worked with me. I never put a hand on them. >> Did you ever scream at a child? >> I would be like, "No, not nice." That's it. >> Did you ever scream? >> Scream. Yeah. Scream. Yeah. But not like scream scream like violently scream. I'd be like, "No, not nice." You know what? >> That's it. >> Do you scream cuz you're losing patience >> sometimes? Yes. But if it gets out of control when it gets out of control, yeah, I will say no. Not nice. And you know, I get a little >> um and that's the whole thing we're getting at is that um you know, I'm going to go back and say that we we don't believe that this was an intentional act. you know, that somebody got in their car, you know, Wednesday morning or whatever or, you know, even Sunday and started thinking this through and saying, they're really at it with this kid and um when I go into work the next time and he's there, this is, you know, I'm just fed up and this is what I'm going to do. No way that that happened. But what we do firmly believe is that if people are human, they get to a point where they're either not thinking clearly, okay, um, and make a mistake, >> um, you know, there's a lot of instances out there now where people just cuz they're tired are crashing cars because they're working so many hours. And is that intentional? No. But they had the same level of uh, intoxication as somebody who was drunk. It's this literally a statistic. It's if you're awake for like 17 hours straight, you're like a 050, which is right near the legal limit. You know, something that you can't control. All right? So, if there's an error made, you can't control the error. It's made. Okay? And at the time, it may not seem like it's a tremendous issue. Okay? It may not seem like, you know, let's say in this case, something may have happened. It didn't seem like it was a major injury, okay? >> Because you don't know with kids realistically. And we were talking uh a little bit this morning about a case that that I had handled where uh and I'm telling you, I'm trying to be honest and factual with you. >> Okay. >> Okay. I'm laying things out here. I'm not I'm not bringing uh props in here and laying things down and saying, you know, we've got fingerprints and we've got that, you know, I'm being completely honest with you. We find out cuz we we do this all the time that lying to a person on our end doesn't achieve anything cuz if we get caught in a lie, our credibility is crap. You're not going to believe a thing I say as soon as you catch me in a lie. Right. >> The detectives have reached a different stage now. They're no longer trying to convince Melissa that an accident is possible. They're telling her that the physical evidence will eventually speak for itself. But science can only establish what happened to Ben's body. It can't explain the emotion, the hesitation, or what happened inside that room. For that, they still need Melissa's version. >> Right? You got to look at it from our perspective. That's the way we feel about you. It's all about credibility and all about honesty. >> Okay? >> You know, it's like God forgives. We don't because once you've told a lie or continue to escalate that it's worse and worse and worse and worse and then at some point when this all comes to fruition and it will it's either going to be through you if it's through somebody else and it will by today's day's end it will be it would preferably be you who tells us exactly what happened and put yourself in a positive light. Don't let somebody else railroad you down the river or don't let these exigent facts paint you into a corner. We believe that something happened. We just want to you know the problem with child victims is children. They can't tell us >> cuz they can't speak. >> They can't. And now in this case forever. Okay. But then we have to rely on everything else. We have to rely on science. Dad talks to us. Okay. But that only gives us a portion of of the fact and the truth. Science can't tell us human emotion. Science can't tell us luck >> or probability or chances or bad luck or accidents. Science can't tell us all that to exact details. Only the person who was involved in that can tell us that. And that's why we're really sitting here frustrated a little bit because I hope you understand we're trying to give you every single opportunity there is. Every single opportunity there is to talk to us and clear the air on this thing and just put it to rest so we can get on the phone. We can call our bosses in Lincolnshshire and say, "Okay, Melissa's been straightforward with us. This is exactly what happened. Here's the timeline. we are convinced that this is what happened during this timeline and we're done here. That's all we're asking. You know, if there was an injury that occurred and by the time your sister who I'm telling you in good faith ran in there um and tried to give CPR, bad people don't do that. They don't care. They walk away. They run away from that. They don't want anything to do with that. Right? Bad people don't have a conscience. You know what I mean? The word sociopath or psychopath. It's one and the same. Those are people who have no emotions. They they operate physically and mentally every day like normal people. You couldn't tell them, but inside they're dead. They have no feelings at all. You could not get away with that working in the environment. That's not you. You've got emotions. You I saw your emotions here. You got upset. You have a conscience, right? Um, you can express love, you can express hate. I'm sure you've got um a love relationship with your boyfriend, your family. You probably love your sister. I think she got really worried and concerned about you leaving today. She loves you. Okay. You have a lot of people supporting you and you have a whole whole life ahead of you. How old are you? 212 >> 22. Do you need to carry a burden like this for the next 60 years or whatever? Nobody does. And you know what? It's this type of thing that eats you up. And it's this type of thing that no matter what haunts you, haunts your reputation cuz there's always a question mark. >> Like I heard him hit his head >> where >> on the carpet though. >> On the carpet or the tile? >> On the carpet. >> Was that Wednesday? >> Yeah. >> Okay. A couple times he's done that when we say no, not nice and he will get upset like he was sitting straight up and he would fall like he would like seriously like fall completely and hit his head. >> What did he get upset after he hit his head? >> Yeah. >> You start crying? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um what do you remember what time he hit his head? >> No, I don't. >> Kind of approximate maybe. Was it >> probably sometime in the afternoon before ahead of time before they had snack? Maybe. Okay. >> Cuz he's >> And what was it? I mean, I know you were saying that you guys have like reading and you have play time. What What event was it during? >> There was nothing going on. It was just plain playtime. >> Okay. >> Because like when he got up from that, I saw him. He was awake. Picked him up. I was like on the recliner or the rocking chair, >> right? >> Just, you know, hanging out with him. And like, you know, we were being silly or whatever. And I know later on out throughout the day he did something to a point probably where you know we would like say no not nice and he took it very very hard. >> You say we would that be you and Nancy or just you? >> Um was well G Wendy was in there too. Okay. >> So [laughter] it could it was Dr. Nap then? >> So what was he sitting on the floor or? He was >> sitting on the floor. >> And can can you I mean how how fast or hard did he fall back? phone like really fast like he would like how he would throw himself like >> he threw himself backwards. >> He threw himself backwards really hard >> and did he start screaming or crying? He did. >> He did. >> Who was in the room? >> Me and Wendy. >> Okay. How did you guys calm him down? Did he calm himself down or >> He calmed down but then we put him in a little the little chair where he usually goes. >> So you just picked him up and put him in a chair. Yeah, we we picked him up and then we were like, you know, you're okay. And he stopped crying once we picked him up though. And then we put him in the chair. >> And then what what did he do in the chair? >> He was fine after that. He was just um just sitting there. He was playing or just moving around, whatever. Had his eyes open, everything. >> Can I ask you why didn't you just tell us that to begin with? >> I wasn't thinking straight cuz I like I said, I am nervous. I've never been in a situation like this. So, it's it's very hard. >> We understand that and that's fine. We just want to know make sure that there's nothing else that you decide not to tell us and we have to drag out because every time we have to pull stuff out or make you know that we're going to find out that you were there or we're going to find out. I promise. >> I just don't want to lose my job or anything. >> Don't worry about your job. You know what >> with the like sometimes I feel like I'm blamed. >> Look look what did he say from the beginning? We're not looking to put blame on anyone. We're looking to find out what happened, >> right? >> And by not telling us 100% the truth, then yeah, people are instinctively going to blame you. They're going to point the finger at you because of the time. You know what I'm saying? You're there. It's not like there were 50 people in that room with you, okay? And I know how important your job is and I know how important your career is. I mean, you have laid out in your mind what your career is going to be, right? You're doing the right thing. You said it yourself that every time something had occurred that was that you reported it. Okay, maybe this time he didn't because oh my god, yeah, you're you're a responsible person and you don't want people to point the finger of blame on you saying you are irresponsible. Okay, this >> then Melissa finally gives them something concrete. The story about Ben falling backward and hitting his head. But the problem isn't only what happened is that she never mentioned this before. The detectives immediately focus on that lay because every new detail that appears only after repeated questioning makes them wonder whether they're hearing a memory or a story being built under pressure. >> Okay. This time the injury was more serious than you could tell. You're you don't have x-ray vision. >> So you didn't do anything. Okay. Like I told you about that story with the ER doctor. Didn't identify and didn't see right away. Sent the child home. I mean you're not even a doctor. Okay. What Sean is saying is she said, "We want to make sure that that's all that happened." Seriously, because of Gwendy tells us something contrary. >> Cuz she saw this, right? >> Yeah. When he threw himself down. >> Okay. >> Threw himself down from where? >> In on the carpet. >> Where was he? >> When he threw himself down >> in the in the center of the room. >> Was he standing? >> No, he was he was sitting up like like crisscross. >> Sitting on the floor on the chair. sitting on the floor >> and he flung himself back. >> He flung himself back >> when his head hit. Can you describe what kind of action it make me? Show me. Show me with your hand. >> Like you just hear like a like a loud punk. >> Did his head bounce off of the carpet? >> I couldn't tell. >> A man. >> Let me ask you this, and this is one of the most important questions you're going to answer. After everything happened and he was taken to the hospital, did you and Gwendy ever talk about Do you think he hurt himself from when it hit his head? >> Never. >> And other times though, he's done that, but not as hard. He has been He's thrown himself. >> He started crying right away. >> Yeah. >> And who picked him up? >> I believe Gwendy did. It was It was me, Gwendy, and Nancy. That's what I remember. >> Nancy was here, too. Yeah, it could have been Gwen G or Nancy. I'm I'm still clueless like you know, but he did do that. >> Think about it. Who was with you? >> Really important. >> Okay. I was going to say Gwendy. >> Did Gwendy pick him up >> and put him in his chair? >> Okay. And did Gwendy say anything to you after she picked him up and put him in his chair? >> Okay. >> Did you think he had hit his head hard enough to No. >> Some kind of serious injury? All the time we've been talking, did you feel that that may have been what caused this? Yes. And you were reluctant to tell us why. >> I was just wasn't thinking about thinking that, you know, maybe when I stepped out of the room, you know, he could have >> Well, you just told me to say you're worried about your job. >> Yeah. Me, too. >> Okay. You want some more water or bathroom or anything? All right, we're done. We're going to take a little bit of a break. Okay, let me explain what we did here. We [clears throat] got a team um one of our teams is with a uh a physician who specializes you know in these types of injuries um you can look at the parameters of an injury >> um based on the autopsy you know that was performed yesterday. Do you know how an autopsy works? >> They search and find They do. They do examination, >> you know, without being in the graph and details. They basic something happened where you got frustrated, aggravated, whatever. And I'm telling you, it wasn't intentional. It was an accident. But it wasn't him flipping backwards. It wasn't. You know that. We know that. The forensic scientists are telling us that. Wendy tells us that. what you told us didn't happen. Okay? You you need to clear the air here and tell us. You really do. I know you've been sitting here thinking about it. You can't manipulate out of this. You really can't. You just need to come forward and tell us. You really do. Something frustrated you. Something happened. Okay? I know you didn't know the extent of Ben's injury. I know you didn't know that. And it's been eating you up these last few days. I have no idea. I mean, I could tell it in your eyes and you're going like this today, right? One one minute you're feeling like I'm done with this. And you know, we just come back here and we say, "Look, you're not you're not because this is what we found out. This is what this is this is fact." >> Okay? You really need to just tell me the truth. >> Um, >> please. No denials. I know I'm not I'm like I said that's the only thing I could possibly think of. I never took any frustration out on any of my kids ever. I never laid finger. >> We're not saying we're not saying okay we're not saying that. We're saying that perhaps you took him you put him in a chair a little too hard. I mean he was scr whatever he might have hit his head on something. What you're describing to us did not happen mathematically. it couldn't have happened and physics wise it couldn't have happened. Something else happened. >> We're thinking like something happened and doing it normally everything would be fine. Like if George was a baby and I put him in a chair, he'd go in the chair. He go to sleep. But maybe on this instance, maybe the chair rocked back. There was a wall behind the chair. It rocked back. He tumbled back and his head on the ground. There was something that happened and we know >> he was where he was sitting and where I placed him. I was kind of by the uh changing table in the garbage can. And when I was taking him out, I probably cuz I didn't stand behind him. I was on the side grabbing him and like chased probably his head on the back of the changing table. I see the the side of the changing table. That's the only thing I can think of right now is that he must have hit his head on a challen this this injury was like my partner sense like someone getting dropped off a second story. The baby would have started to cry. It would have happened right when this whole thing went down. It would have happened right before it. I think you would have known. You know exactly when the incident took place. You're making yourself look real bad. We're trying to think that you didn't intend on this injury to happen. You didn't intend on this to happen, but for whatever reason, it did happen. Okay, we need to know and we need you to tell us. You need to be honest to help yourself out here. Do you should be honest with us. What are you most afraid of? Just tell me about this whole situation. >> That it could be my fault. >> I just don't know how. >> Okay. But what are you most afraid of if it is your fault? >> Everyone will talk to you. >> Co-workers. >> Co-workers. [snorts] >> Why? I don't know. >> You think that they never made a mistake in their life? >> I just have a gut feeling like it should be my fault. Ever since I got a [snorts] piece of paper, I just felt like what did I do wrong? And I've been trying to think through truly. That's why I haven't been able to sleep much because I'm trying to think what did I do >> or what did he have to do? >> What are you most afraid of? >> Now, the detectives have a much bigger problem with the story. The medical evidence indicates an injury to the back of Ben's head, which fits part of what Melissa described, but the extent of the injury doesn't. There's also bruising toward the front of the brain, suggesting movement beyond a simple backward fall. Her explanation finally has to answer to the physical evidence that your coworker talk to you >> and then get a fine or go to jail or something. >> Well, Melissa, if you didn't our our goal is if you didn't intend on causing pain or somebody, we wouldn't we wouldn't want you to go to jail. It's like that whole accident. it was a complete accident. Even if it was something out of frustration and maybe you put him in a chair too hard and the chair flipped over, we need to know. But we need to know now. You're worried about your co-workers. Give me a [ __ ] break. This kid's dead. [ __ ] your co-workers. Okay. I mean, >> and your family's always going to be there for >> always. >> They're not going to think anything less because they know you as an individual. They know you as a person. [ __ ] You know, if these [clears throat] How about this? If they're thinking, if you don't if you don't clarify this, then what the [ __ ] do you think your coworker is going to be thinking this whole time anyways? >> But if you bring this out, we know, there's no doubt about it. It was an accident. And tell me that they've never in judgment. Come on. >> That should be the last thing that you >> Absolutely. >> That's the last thing you should worry about. Everything else, like I said, stuff was an accident or you didn't intend for event to get hurt severely. We don't think you did. We thought maybe you got frustrated. Maybe something happened. You dropped. We don't know exactly what, but we know it happened within minutes from the time he went unresponsive. We know you were the only one in the room and we know it's something he can't cause by himself. So, Melissa, when when this is all said and done, we have to clear this with the state's attorney to say what our opinion is and what happened here. And they're going to ask us, well, is this a person who's sorry for what they did? Is this a person who was cooperative with you? All this stuff's going to come to effect. And we're going to be able to say at the end of this, Melissa was very cooperative with us. She talked to us and she told us the truth. By her telling us the truth, we're able to to get some resolution to this case and some closure to the family. tell we'll go tell the people at your work that if this guy whatever you want us to tell them that's the least of your concerns right now but we know for a fact this happened moments before he lost consciousness and we know you were the only one in the room so please tell us what happened please don't make us drag everything out of you because it makes it seem like you're being deceitful to us >> and I took them out I watched He was at the edge and heard his head down kind of almost slipped him and he hit the chair and then I heard it. He didn't It was fine though. I made sure that >> the change. >> No, the wooden chair of the wooden chairs >> like the adult wooden chairs. The baby chairs. Yeah, they they have little straps in them. >> That's okay. It's all we've been trying to get from you for this whole time. I know you're upset. Okay. I know that you're upset about this whole thing, but ask but stuff like this happens all the time. You didn't want intend for this little boy to die, right? And who knows? He could have had some pre-existing condition, [snorts] you know? Who knows? But >> when when you when you put him in the chair, were you holding him? >> No. >> Okay. >> I just picked him up. >> Where was he? Where was he when you picked him up? >> He was on the floor. >> On the floor. And why did you pick him up? >> Cuz I just wanted to put him in right away. >> Okay. And did you you drop him? Is that what you said? Or >> when I took him out of the chair. >> Okay. So you put him in the chair to get him a snap. >> Yeah. And then when you picked them up, you dropped them. >> They kind of slipped. Yeah. >> He slipped. >> Yeah. >> And he hit his head on the back of the the top part of the chair. >> Yeah. >> And then he [snorts] yell or scream? >> No. >> He didn't do anything. >> We checked his head and it was >> okay. From now on, don't tell us tell us the truth and everything will be okay. Don't That's fine. We We understand that you're scared and we are not lying to you here. We need to know the truth. It's going to help us. Okay, Melissa. And promise me one thing that you won't lie again. And I promise you, we're going to we're going to make this we're going to make things as easy as possible on you as long as you don't lie to us. Okay. Did you drop the baby? [snorts] >> Yes. >> Did you slam him on the chair? >> He slipped. >> Why were you afraid to tell us he slipped? [snorts] Did you slam him on the chair? You sure? You wouldn't do that. He just slipped in the back. His head hit the back of the chair. [snorts] Why would he have some group? Did he hit the ground after that? Or [snorts] what happened after he hit the chair? >> No. His body. So he fell out of your hands. When I put him down, I took him out of the snare and then I wiped him up. And then when I come back, the other chair is behind me. I wasn't paying attention. He slipped out of my pants. >> How far How far did you slip? >> Like a little bit like >> Don't exaggerate it to make it sound better. If it's an accident, it's an accident. You got to tell us exactly. We're going to have to be able to prove >> what they telling us scientifically. Remember what I told you? [snorts] So, you need to really really be specific about how it slipped and how far down. So, >> it wasn't that far to a point where I it slipped like he felt off balance and then he >> What did he hit his head on? >> What? [snorts] >> A chair. A back of a chair. And after he hit his head, did he fall onto the floor? >> He he fell, but he went to the crawling after that. >> He hit his head and then fell to the ground. And how were you standing up when this happened? Were you standing straight up? >> Yeah, I was b I like was like this and it slipped. >> Yeah, he slipped. Ben slipped. >> Yeah. >> And then I did like >> And how low was the back of the chair? >> It was like this tall. >> [snorts] >> If I show you a picture of the chair, would you recognize it? >> The the wooden table. >> The one on a wooden table. Did he hit his head on? >> He hit his head on a wooden table. >> Which one was it? >> Did you [snorts] Did you change Did you change him prior to that? No, >> you didn't. What did >> I change before? >> What did you put him in the chair for? >> I didn't the snack. >> You he was sitting at the snack table, right? >> Yeah. Regular chair. >> You took him out of the snack. >> When he was done, I took him out, washed him off and everything else. And when I put him down, that's when I slipped and it was right there between the tile. Did you slip or did he slip out of your hand? Did you actually fall down with him? >> I didn't. >> Did you drop him? >> Okay. Where were you putting them back to a different chair? >> No, he bring them to the floor. >> Bring them to the floor. >> Okay. And was that at the same time while Nancy left the room? >> Yeah. She had her back turned. >> She had her back dishes. >> Did [snorts] he start crying right away? You didn't scream or anything. And then So you just after that, what did you do? [snorts] >> I continued. >> No. What did you do with him? Did he just put him on the floor? >> Did you put him on the floor or did he roll onto the floor? >> He went on the floor. >> Okay. [snorts] After he slips, hits his head on the chair and then he's on the floor. >> He started crawling. >> Where [snorts] did he crawl to? to the other chair recliner to get a blanket. >> And then >> after the medical evidence is laid out, the detectives stop giving Melissa easy explanations. They've narrowed the timeline down. They believe she was present when the injury happened and they're telling her they don't think it was intentional. That distinction matters. They're essentially removing the biggest reason she has for staying silent. The fear that admitting an accident automatically means admitting she meant to hurt him. After he got there, how long after that did you notice he was starting to [snorts] kind of look sleepy? >> Is that why you were keeping such a good eye on him? Because you were worried about him hitting his head >> and then that's why you were watching him. So you're watching real >> the last she heard of him, he was screaming and crying while she was washing dishes. >> He didn't do anything to frustrate you. Was this something out of frustration? Huh? No. How I know you're planning? [snorts] He was a little bit frustrated. I was just come out trying to hurry and pull out. >> What do you mean by not paying attention? >> Like where I put him where I was at? >> I mean, I don't understand. Like, did you let go thinking he was secure? Did you let go of him a couple feet early or something? >> Yeah. >> Were you in a hurry? Cuz I'm just saying stuff. You tell me and wonder why. >> I could hand everything. >> So, um, so the chair was facing the other way. So, he hit the back of it with his head and then he hit the floor >> and he straight. When I dropped him, [snorts] the chair was like right there and he hit his head and then he just like leaned forward and then after that >> of his head when he went forward, >> but he when he hit the back of the chair when he went down to the ground, did his head hit the ground at any time too? >> Forward. No. So he hit the chair backwards and his body go forward. Then it did. >> Yeah. Let me get something. Maybe you can show us because it's hard to explain. Okay. So we're going to use a chair and I'm going to get you something. >> All right. You didn't tell anybody about this? >> No. [snorts] If you didn't mean for it to happen, it's okay. Okay. People make mistakes all the time. >> Just show us how we use this as a chair. >> So, what were you doing? Where were you coming from with the baby? >> The kitchen. I was like this and I un chair or in front of it. >> I was like this >> up inside. Okay. [snorts] >> And I picked them up. Yeah. And I was like then I took him over to the the sink to get his hands washed. >> Okay. >> And then I'm walking as I dried off I dried off his hands >> and um I wouldn't think you know the water or whatever. >> So your hands were wet >> a little wet and then like I walked forward a little bit and certain on the other side of it there was a chair and coming down like I wasn't even like really looking. We'll pretend this is the actual chair. >> This is a chair that I took him. >> Okay. Okay. >> And then when I put him down, his head went >> No. Well, show us. Pretend this is like a foot off the ground. >> Yeah. When I put him down, I wasn't paying attention. I was like this and then [snorts] clunk really hard cuz I dropped them. I lost balance. Like I just went like that and then on the between the child and [snorts] the floor. >> So he hit his head on the chair and then he lost balance and what? Flipped out of the chair. >> No, he I dropped him. >> Right. his head hit the back of the chair and dropped him because he was so I thought he was going to stand >> and because he had almost the formation of standing up and then when I dropped him like this [snorts] Listen, you don't need to convince, okay? You don't. Your family loves you. [snorts] They're going to be very supportive. You're doing the right thing. Okay. All right. Sweet. >> I want I want to see this though again. I'm still having some difficult. I'm sorry. I know this is hard, but >> I got to understand this fully. Show me exactly and describe everything because I need to to get this through my head. >> Okay. >> He was sitting. This is a chair. >> There's a chair he was in. >> Okay. >> Sitting on the side. I unbokeled him [snorts] and then I taped him off. I didn't even have him facing me. I took tooth sink, wiped off his hands cuz he was full of graham crack or animal crackers. [snorts] And then after that, I dragged I was holding like that. And then after when I was done, I wouldn't even have my eye on him when I dropped him. [snorts] Like I went like this and then he was like this and then his feet were kind of like this starting to stand. So I thought he was going to stand. And this is on another chair. >> It was on the floor. >> On the floor. Okay. >> And then he lost when I dropped it cuz I thought he >> and his head hit back. >> So let's say this is the floor. We'll say this is lower. Look at his bar here. >> Okay. >> So he slips and he falls back and he hits his head on the chair like that. >> Is that it? >> And then what happens to his body? >> And then you just like >> show us what the So here, this is a chair. He hits his head on the edge of the chair, >> right? Slips and hits it. Okay. >> And then he leans forward >> and then after that he sits back up and then he walks toward he's calling hands and knees to get his ticket and that was it. That's his spot. >> He didn't fall again. >> No. >> So you put him down on the ground. >> Yeah. >> And you thought >> you had his balance. Did you drop him before his feet hit the ground? >> No. >> Very important. Tell us. >> Did you? >> No. No. It was like tiptoe like >> tiptoe. Yeah. >> So his head fell back like that. >> Did he go forward then like that at all? >> He did. He caught himself >> because that doesn't seem like enough force to cause the uh >> That's what he >> How hard did he hit his head? >> I really Yeah. Did the chair move at all? >> No. >> So, um, how long after that? >> And then the story finally changes. Melissa admits that she took Ben out of the chair, heard something, and realized something had happened. But even here, the detectives don't stop at the admission. They immediately start asking exactly how she was holding him, where he was, and what he hit. Because now they don't just need a confession, they need a version of events that can actually be tested. >> How long after that happened did she go out of the room? [snorts] >> And she didn't hear nothing cuz she had her face her back towards the she had her back towards she wasn't she was doing the dishes. So, I was like, I wasn't really paying attention when I dropped him [snorts] >> cuz I had to get the other kids out. >> But you thought he was on his feet and you let go of him >> or did you drop him before he his feet hit the ground? Did you think he was on the ground? >> Yeah. >> So, his feet weren't on the ground. >> Tell us this. How high off the ground you think he was? >> This is all going to make sense. like this much. >> Don't exaggerate stuff to think that it's going to make your story better cuz it'll make it worse. Tell me exactly. >> It wasn't that much. >> So, you thought he was on the ground and you let go. [snorts] Is that what happened? >> And he fell like that and hit the back of his head >> because he was like leaning he wasn't like leaning forward. He was sitting up like he was like up like this like straight up. And like when he fell back, [snorts] he I heard him hit his head. I did. And then he just like went like like he like swung a little bit forward [snorts] onto the floor and then he was like that and sat back up and then he started he just crawled to his blanket and that was it. >> And then when he got to his pl you were still keeping an eye on him. >> Yeah. >> And what happens? He um called to the chair to spot [snorts] and I was like keeping him and then his sister they wereing everything and then all of a sudden like a second later you just see him bail and I called him and no response. So I went to him and I was like then he didn't wake up or anything. I shook his arm like I said and then I went for to get the phone and Crystal heard me and that she came and they so was at the phone seeing that I need help and [snorts] then Crystal said Beth I need you in here like right away >> and you didn't tell Crystal what really happened cuz we got two guys we don't want to find out that she knows all about this >> and that you lied to us. >> You didn't tell me that you were talking about it. No, >> they're having trouble if you did. It'll actually >> um give us some, you know, >> witnesses to your story. >> Yeah. No, I kept it too. [snorts] >> So, we're not going to find out that this wasn't your story is impossible. Is this the truth? [snorts] >> It is. >> It is. So, you he didn't quite he wasn't quite on the ground? >> No. you thought he was. You let go. Did he hit the back of his ankles and fall back or did his back just start falling back right away? >> No, he hit the back of his ankles >> and he hit at the back of his head so hard he came forward right away. >> Are these the types of chairs like in that bottom picture? >> Yeah, >> that's it. >> What would be on the armrest or the back part? >> The back part of this chair completely They they know how to push out and it [snorts] was like the edge cuz like here's here's the chair like around here and the chair was pushed out [snorts] and it was moved from the kids and that's it. >> Is that the table? >> Yeah, >> that is the table. Can you just do it and circle the table and the chair? You just put your initials next to it. >> So, you didn't slam them for doing anything wrong? >> No. >> Huh? >> Would you do something like that? >> Never. >> Never. >> Never. [snorts] >> So, this was clear that he just weren't paying attention. He thought he was on the ground. I just want to make sure because you know there's been a couple stories. I want to make sure this is your final one. >> That's why I was asking you if you told everybody. [snorts] Okay. Give us a minute. Okay. Everything's going to be all right. And if you're in the future, you're going to be happy that you got this off your chest. Okay. [snorts] Melissa, the chair when his head hit the chair, where was the chair in relation to the table? >> It was the table. >> And what happened to the chair after his head? >> Did it move the chair? kind of wiggled. >> It wiggled. [snorts] >> Yeah. >> Are the chairs real heavy? >> No. >> No. >> It just wiggled. >> Yeah, cuz it was on [snorts] between the tile and the carpet. It was like >> the chair. >> Yeah, the chair was like curve [snorts] where that stick of it. What [snorts] kept the chair from like falling back? >> The weight of what? >> It wasn't at all. It was probably heavier. It was heavier than the top. >> How heavy do you think the chair is? I mean, is it a heavy chair to pick up and move? >> You just think the weight kept it from moving? Okay. Do you think he weighed more than the chair? >> Was the chair the legs? Are those four legs or is it >> Did you say half of them were on the wood and half half was on the tile, half was on the carpet? >> There was the southern part right [snorts] there. There was a line where the tip of it was, you know, it can wiggle [snorts] and hit it. has moved, but it moved back. >> The reenactment gives detectives something they couldn't get from Melissa's words alone. She now has to show them what she says happened, not just explain it. That makes her account much easier to test because they can compare what she demonstrates with the injuries and the evidence they already have. >> They hit it. It has four legs going to the ground. Are all the legs on carpet? between the tile and then the other two like um on the side and um like the chair and everything the blanket was trying to go at and like when he dropped I wasn't paying attention and like on the um the rubber part to cover the ceiling or whatever the [snorts] cement in the carpet and like it went. >> Okay. >> Okay. I'll be back in a minute. Okay. Um, we talked to the doctor, the pathologist, does the autopsies and does all the the measurements and um, we had a couple of couple of concerns. Um, about how far them fell and the the chair, whether it was stationary, salad, rubber tile and one leg was on. >> No, that's not just wondering like where you where you dropped the baby from how high the baby was off the ground. >> The chair was pulled off from the table. You said, >> "Yeah, they're pushing out." >> And when I dropped him, >> you mean that bottom of his legs where your hands are? The bottom of his legs, right? >> So he fell two feet to the foot. Okay. So it was a little higher than what he told us. The bottoms of his feet were about it looks like about a foot and a half off the ground. So the top of his head was probably about three or four feet. Okay. And then the chair moved and you hit it back. >> The chair did what they're going to do is they're going to bring that chair over here and then the doctor over here. They're going to bring the chair to the doctor and he's going to make sure that this is possible. can tell exactly if that's what caused the the injury, but we want to make sure. >> What do you see? Look closely at Melissa's explanation. Do you think her story makes sense? Was this really an accident or is there something she's leaving out? Drop your theory in the comments. And if you want more interrogation breakdowns, hidden details, and the moments that matter, like the video and subscribe to Verdict Interrogation for more.