Alaska state troopers received pictures of a bull moose that was checked in as required. After inspecting the images, the officers had reason to believe it was a sublegal moose. >> Can you hear me? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. You're very faint. This is trooper spam with the wildlife troopers in Petersburg. >> Yeah. >> This Taniah? >> Yeah, this is >> Hey, so uh Sergeant Listister asked me to give you a call. Uh uh we looked at that that those pictures that you sent over to him. That moose is not going to be legal. >> It's not going to be legal. >> It is not. No. >> How do you figure? >> Well, it's broken. And a broken, damaged, or altered antler cannot be considered a spike or fork. >> Okay. Well, I I'm feeling it. So, >> okay. Well, the I'm that's fine. and we can have that disagreement. Uh, but I'm gonna get over there. I'm gonna try to get over to Wrangle either tomorrow or the next day and get that moose from you and then, uh, get you a citation and then we can discuss this in court. >> Okay. Yeah, that's fine. We can do that. >> So, uh, all of the moose meat though, I need you to preserve it though until I get over there. Um, because if you >> That's not a problem. Yeah, we got it and it's looking good. >> Okay. Um yeah, I will I will touch base with you tomorrow and let you know what it's looking like. The weather's not very great. Um as you >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No, we'll we'll make sure everything is taken care of. Always do. >> Okay. >> Um Yeah. Yeah. Don't don't risk yourself. I mean, I'm not going to pull any on you. Take care of yourself. Make sure you're not >> endangering yourself. >> I I I appreciate that. Uh I will be in touch with you tomorrow. Uh if you have anything that any questions or anything that come up in the meantime between then or you don't hear from me, uh this is my work cell and you can uh go ahead and give me a call on this number. >> And what was your name again? >> My name is Josh Span. >> Okay, Josh. All right. Yeah. Yeah, you welcome and we'll we'll see you in court. >> Okay, sounds good. Thanks, sir. >> Hey, how's it going? >> Good. Josh with the troopers out of Petersburg. >> Josh? >> Yeah. >> On tonight. Nice to meet you. >> Yeah, good to meet you. >> This is the bowling question. >> So, tell me what you think it is and explain to me how it isn't legal. >> How it isn't legal? >> How it is legal? >> How it is legal? Well, it's got a fork. That's a fork. >> Yeah. But what does the the regulations say that damaged, broken, or altered antlers cannot be considered spikes or forks? Well, this is an injury, >> but it says damage, broken, or altered antlers cannot be considered spiker forks. It does not say that it was injured or if you if you broke this off and you had the piece >> and you could show me. >> Yeah, >> I would give it to you. >> But it's speculation at best. I mean, this is obviously been healed. I I don't And I get it and I can argue out here like it is what it is, but I see it. I totally get get what you're saying >> cuz I'm not I'm not somebody to fight about stuff. >> So, and you don't know if you know the history of the regulation. The regulation was made actually proposed mainly out of wrangle here. >> Yeah. >> Cuz of folks were >> we're altering I know. >> Correct. So therefore they made this regulation that says broken, damaged or altered. I don't think you broke it and altered it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that it is broken and damaged. Uh which is apparent because we don't know. And if we look at this side, right, this splits off. >> Yeah, it's a fork. >> We don't know what this is. But this is not a fork over here because this is three points. >> Exactly. So if this fork and it has a brow tang. >> So if this had what it intended to have without this being broken, we don't know what it was going to be. We don't know if this is one point or we don't know if this is palmating into two points like this side because moose typically grow symmetrical antlers. Okay. Typically, uh I'm not saying anything is definitive or or >> if it grows symmetrical, then we would be reasonable doubt or reasonable to assume that it would have a brow time here. >> Well, this is this point. Okay. And this is where it's palmating back to here. >> H. >> So, this is a this is a >> but >> a point a brow or point >> very well could have been if it hadn't been injured grown into a single point. It very well could. But you can't tell me that and I can't tell you that. >> So you have to prove without a reasonable doubt, right? Cuz >> I do not have to prove that. I have to prove that. So what this is being char and I'm actually this is being charged as a criminal offense. Okay. Cuz it's not a self turnin. So >> yes, it was. >> You told me this is legal, right? And that you disagree and that we'll talk about it in court. Correct. >> Yeah. I just want to >> So that is not a self turnin. Says So this is what a self turnin is. Self turning is is you come to the you come to us and say hey I shot the wrong moose this is illegal I'm giving this to you so we say >> so listen >> you are taking it without I'm fine >> hear me out argument okay but you're telling me that it's legal right >> I think that it's legal it's saying that it is I'm saying that I think that >> I understand so that's not a self turnin a self turnin is saying that I am surrendering this moose because I know this moose is illegal and it does not meet the requirements of the hunt. Okay, that is a self turnin. >> I've done everything legal. >> I'm not saying that you have done anything. >> I'm not trying to hide this. I didn't consider that's not that's not the case. >> I'm only stating the only reason that I want to even go to court over this is cuz I would like to know like I know your guys's job. I totally understand it. I respect you guys for what you do. I break the law. I'm not trying to be accused. I'm not trying to >> I don't want to be accused of being a >> I love hunting, fishing. >> So, let me let me start with this saying. I don't think that you intended to shoot an illegal moose. That is not what I'm saying. Okay? I don't think you went out there with the malice intent to say, "I'm going to shoot whatever moose comes across. I don't care what it is." I don't believe that. But what I'm saying is is this moose does not meet the requirements of the hunt, which the requirements of the hunt say on the permit that it has to be 50 in or three brow tines on one side or two brow tines on both sides or a spike or fork or a spike or fork that has a damaged, broken or altered antler cannot be considered a spike or fork. >> Okay? >> So therefore, this qualifies So look, this is broken over here, right? So, we can't call this a spike or a fork. So, therefore, we have to look at the non-broken side, which is not legal. It's three points. Okay? Cuz this disqualifies it from being counted in the hunt as a broken antler. >> Okay? Well, when I shot this bull, I did not know because this bull was standing here and I let this bull walk twice before I shot him. And when I look at that bull like that, it looks like a point there and a point there. >> I get it. >> Okay. So, I'm not trying to be a criminal here and I don't want to fight about this. I don't want to be charged as criminal. I am being >> So this is this is the deal when when we have and this is our this is our policy. Okay. If this is something that is turned in and we have it all the time. I just had a call. Uh a guy in Petersburg says, "Hey, I showed shot a moose broken antler. It's the wrong thing. >> What do I need to do to take care of it?" >> Okay. >> It's illegal. Okay. Your situation is when I talk to you and I tell you that it's illegal looking at it. You tell me that it's legal. I think it's legal, right? That's what you told me. >> I think it's legal. >> You think it's legal. So that >> to this is the thing. I'm a reasonable guy. Okay. As am I. >> I'm not trying to say that you're wrong or I'm wrong. I just said, "Hey, you know, I feel like this is something that happened in velvet. It was injured and this is what it is." And I just want my ability to say, "Hey, is this fair?" >> Well, you absolutely have that that ability, but what I'm doing is reserving the right of the state and how we're charging it. Okay. Okay. >> So, it is going to be charged as a misdemeanor. >> Okay. >> And also, and I have the paperwork here for it that I'll give you right here. So, we can might as well just get this out of the way so you can actually see what I'm telling you. Okay. >> So, this is for you. So, basically, this is your information up here. All right? And this is saying that hunting seasons and bag limits. Okay? And it is charged as a criminal offense misdemeanor. And this is basically saying that you shot a one by one antler with a broken antler on the left side. Okay, >> one by one. >> So this is one by one brow times. >> Okay, >> so that's doesn't qualify and a broken antler. Okay, >> so with that it says that I'm going to be seizing which is taking >> one bowl moose meat and antlers. So these this and all of the meat. Okay, and then there's also the restitution which is just put on here to show that this moose was taken. Uh, and then there's a court date next week on the 8th at 8:30 in the morning. >> Okay. >> Okay. And then at that court date, what it is, and this is for you, for your copy. At that court date, the judge will explain your rights. >> Uh, and what the maximum punishments is for this incident, which is up to $25,000, one year imprisonment, which is not what that's the maximum, which is not what the state's going to be looking to get, but that's just what a misdemeanor charge is. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Um, so that's where we're going with it. >> Okay. >> I am I am certain that this is broken. >> Okay. >> Uh, I have no doubts about this whatsoever. >> Um, there we do not know what this antler would have looked like cuz it's not here. >> If you had the other piece of it, we'd know what it would look like and we'd have a different story. >> Yeah. But it was obviously not hadn't been there for a long time if it was and we don't know that it didn't grow like that and there's a lot of variables. >> Well, I can tell you it didn't grow like that because it's broken and you can see all of the all of the splintering of the inside of the antler. This is not how it this how it grows like this. This is how it grows where it's smooth and it's not this is the fibrous inside of the antler where it's been broken. >> Gotcha. That's not a That's not something that happened. I mean, this one is breaking over here, too. That one's cracked. >> So, >> Well, that's a bummer, man. I'm just trying to stand up for myself. I >> I don't I don't disagree with you. And I And that's your right to do. You need to advocate for yourself because there's no one else is going to. >> Yeah. >> So, um and I guess I'm not It's not personal. I I don't think that you're a bad guy. I don't think that you are trying to like break the law. Like I said, if I thought that you were doing that, um, and I thought that you were trying to like take Moose illegally and sneak it home, um, we wouldn't be having a conversation on the side of the road. We'd probably I'd take you to jail and do something different, right? I don't think that's the case, man. >> Well, it's not the case. I just want an ability to say, "Hey, is this >> So, and that's what that's what the court process is for. So, uh, and that's where we get, >> you see, what happens is you take people that are genuine and doing the right thing and just want to know what their rights are and you turn them into criminals. >> We're not turning anybody into criminals. >> You absolutely are. You charge me as a criminal. >> So, we charge it as a criminal offense because it's not a self- turnin. Okay? >> You're taking it. >> And listen, and we reserve all of our rights and we can we can reduce it later on, >> but we have to charge it this way because this is the way it is and it reserves all of the states rights. Okay. Just like you're you're entitled to all of your rights. I don't want to take your rights away from you. Okay. It's my job to ensure that the state's rights are also enforced and the resources rights are protected. So that's where it is charged the way it is. Okay? And quite frankly, the way that it is charged is a formality. Everybody that's charged the same is one regulation. It's just whether it's a criminal offense or not. Okay? >> And later on down the road, those can all be changed. All right? But we charge it this way and then later on something else can happen. All right. Gotcha. >> But I have to preserve the rights of the state. >> Yeah. I mean, you guys got your job. I got my job. And the the irony in this is so funny cuz this law was made to protect the species and the population of moose. And and when I talked to Cody, I found it interesting cuz, you know, we we've been blessed with lots of meat. We hunt and fish all the time. And uh everybody on this street here benefits from this. And I thought, you know, what happened to like self-government? like >> well I mean >> people doing the right thing and like hey this was going to go to them >> so it's it's still going to >> I get that and that's the funny part that's the irony in it is cuz it's going to go to the same people like my neighbor here she's on the list and like we're always helping them out and we're always doing things for people because we care about the community and people and so for me to not get this meat is fine cuz I probably wasn't going to I was going to share it with everybody anyway. So I guess what is hard to see is that you got to go through this process to basically you know govern people because they can't govern themselves. And it sucks. I mean it puts you position that's an awkward position. >> Well and really quite frankly um like people and I'm not saying you but if we don't have rules and I don't have this in this place then people would just do what they wanted to do. And and I get that. That's the difference between people that consult govern and go, "Hey, man. I'm here. >> I get that." But it's >> and the community. And if this is illegal, >> we have to we have to do it for all and not for some. >> Well, and I don't I mean, I'll deal with this. I' I've dealt with stuff before. It's not a big deal. But I guess it's just a principle for me. And I definitely don't want to taint our relationship cuz I >> Look, I I don't I just met you and this is the way that I met you. Like I said, if I thought you were >> if I thought that you did this in malice and that I thought you were a terrible human being, um I would not be even entertaining this conversation with you quite frankly. Uh I would get what I needed to do, give you your paperwork, and then tell you I see it in court. But I think that it's fair to hear your side of it. Um and and unfortunately from what I see, like >> I mean, and if the regulations aren't working and and you don't agree with them, propose to have them changed. Yeah. >> I don't have any I don't have any qualms with the what the regulations >> say when they're done what they say. I mean >> like I like I just told somebody the other day. Um they were doing something and it was something what they were driving and they didn't agree with the rules. >> And it's I I don't I didn't necessarily agree with them either, but I got to enforce them, you know. And there's weird things in this world like how you can you have to wear a seat belt when you drive a car, but you don't have to wear a helmet when you ride a motorcycle. Yeah. >> So, not everything makes sense. And >> I I totally get >> maybe proposing any bull hunt. I don't know. >> I think they ought to because everybody I talked to is seeing tons and tons of illegal bulls. And I'm wondering now if we're thinning out the illegal herd >> illegal herd and and we're going to have this overgrown where nobody's going to get bulls, you know. So, I mean, like I said, when I saw this, I there was no question. I let him walk the first time and then he called and he came back and it was like >> I mean and with anything when I see something like this on one side >> Yeah. >> that this is a clue that would be concerning to me. >> Okay. >> Um because anytime that you see this where this is split into two side two points on this side. This tells me that something's not right with that side. >> Gotcha. >> Um that's kind of the clue for you. Yeah. Um, it's the same thing like palmated antlers are seldom spikes or forks. >> Well, this is interesting because seldom, but nothing always. >> I have a legal bowl that I took years ago out on quu and it has a palm here with three points and a perfect fork on the >> And like I said, seldom. Yeah. >> Nothing is if you if you say to nature, if you tell nature that it is definitive and it will never do something, nature will prove you wrong every single time. So, I'm not saying that it's always that way. >> So, uh, what we need to do now is I need to get this and then get all the meat so I can get it over there. >> What would be the best way to back the truck right here? >> Pull up on the sidewalk right here. >> Okay. Pull right there and the sidewalk there. >> And do you have something to put it in? >> Yeah, she's got a tarp that we're going to put down and then we're going to trick it over straight over to uh GooGen Bicklers so it can get processed. >> Okay. Oh, Chris is doing it. Uh, I guess the I don't know how it's set up in Wrangle because I'm not the Wrangler trooper, but from what uh Cody told me is it goes over to Gener's Chris's place and then the processor picks it up from there. >> Okay. >> So, he's the one that kind of set up the burger bank over here. Um, Petersburg, it's a little bit different. I take it straight to the processor. So, I'm just kind of trying to fill in for the Wrangler trooper however I can. >> Yeah, I heard she's out sick or something. >> Yeah, she she got a little sick. So yeah, that's why I'm kind of >> She goes to our church down there. I was like, "Oh, >> yeah. I'm trying to to run back and forth. I've been all the way up to Seymour Canal and and then to here today." So >> yeah, I'm It's a lot of moving and moving and shaking on our parts. But um I do appreciate you, you know, being uh understanding and and waiting the time and the weather was not ideal to >> I know. I looked at I said, "No, don't >> Well, the we we'll push a lot of it, but I didn't want to push it yesterday. They look a little nasty. >> Sorry about the dry one down there. >> Oh, that's all right. >> Okay. Well, get up here. >> All right. So, we have connect. >> Okay. So, perfect. We'll just like Awesome. Yeah. >> I saw one shot in the quarter. How many times did you hit it? >> I think once. Right. >> Just that once through the You're not a head shooter like everyone else? Oh, almost 300 yards away. >> Okay. >> Really? >> Yeah. I said I don't think that you're a criminal. >> Okay. That's not what that that's not what that citation if it if it was if that was the case. >> Um >> I wouldn't normally be taking the moose, I'd be seizing your rifle and then whatever a boat and whatever else, however else they take. Okay, that that's not the case. Um, it's purely to preserve the rights of the state as well as to preserve your rights process and it and >> and we're going to take it to court and that way you can take that way in front of the in front of the judge and the way it's set up now is it'll be a jury trial. >> So it will be a trial in front of your peers and not just a single judge >> the way it's done. So that that has its benefits. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> So um any questions for me? Um, no, I guess not. I mean, I'm just trying to be workable and >> make sure that you go either show up to court here in Wrangle. Yeah. >> Or call in and arrange to appear telephonically. >> Okay. >> So, um, I don't know if you have their number for the courthouse. It's >> I think so. >> 8742311. >> Okay. >> So, just call them and then they can set up a date or uh the way to appear telephonically if you don't want to be there in person. >> Yeah. So the first date, this first court date is just an arraignment. So basically that just is going to give you what you're charged with and what your rights are and then the next step and the process for it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> All right. Thanks, sir. I appreciate it. >> Yeah, no problem. >> The charge was originally criminal, but was later amended to a noncriminal violation. He was ordered to pay $1,520. If you like this video and want to see more like it, subscribe to Arrest Cam. As always, thanks for watching. [music] >> [music]