Okay. So, you're telling me that you're going to trespass me? That's wrong. >> Well, that's how it's going to work. >> And you're going to stick to that? >> Yep. >> Even though that the law says that you're a law enforcement officer. >> Okay, I don't want you here. >> You got your ID on you? >> I'm not giving my ID. I haven't broken the law. >> Okay. Well, >> An baseless demand for ID, repeated threats of arrest, and a citizen who knew the law. What the officers didn't expect was that their own actions could become their biggest legal problem. >> What are you doing here? >> I don't have to explain to you >> So, it may have been legal prior to this moment cuz now you are being trespassed. >> You mean as of yesterday morning it was legal and it changed within the last 24 hours? >> No, it's not legal for you to be on the property. >> Absolutely it is. >> A tense confrontation erupted from nothing more than a demand for ID with no clear legal basis. And when authority goes up against someone who knows the law, the person wearing the badge is not always the one who comes out on top. All because a man had a camera and refused to answer questions he was not legally required to answer, a female employee quickly treated him like a threat. And then one phone call pushed the situation far beyond a normal conversation. >> Hello. >> Can we help you? >> Uh I'm just getting some video. >> You don't need to be videoing me. >> [laughter] >> And where are you from? Who are you? >> Uh I'm just doing a story. >> For >> Uh >> Hi, excuse me. Can I help you? >> I'm working on a story. Just getting some pictures. >> Okay, but can one of us help you or are you just randomly like what what are you doing, I guess? What are you what are you here for? >> told you what I was doing. Getting some pictures. >> very specific. >> For a story. >> What is your name? >> My name is Jason. >> Jason? >> My name is Missy Smith. What is What is your last name? >> do you work for? >> I'm not answering any more questions until you answer my question. >> answered everything that I can answer. >> What is your last name? >> Doesn't matter. >> Who do you work for? If you're not answering questions, I'm calling the sheriff. >> What I'm doing is 100% legal. >> Okay, but we don't know who you are. So, if you don't have business here, you're trespassing. >> I'm not trespassing. I just told you >> I'm just going to get Can I get Can I get clarification? >> Go ahead. Call them. >> Hi, this is Missy Smith in the middle of the apartment. I just realized that we guys should have called the police instead. Um there's a gentleman here in the apartment and he's filming and he won't tell us his name or what he's here for or he's here alone. I mean, he may I don't know if he's within his rights to do that. He says he is. But he has no business here. So, I don't know if that's trespassing or >> When no specific violation could be identified, suspicion still continued to hang over the conversation. And that was when the debate over citizens' rights began to surface. >> I'm sure they would have asked me this additional information. >> Because this is This is a public building. >> Okay. >> Right? >> I understand that. >> Okay. So, what is >> the story if it's just pictures? I guess is what I'm asking. >> Well, I'm just getting public information. That's all I'm doing. All the bulletin boards and the stuff that's there for the public. You know what I mean? >> I wouldn't try and to like like she's talking and doing stuff with her. I'm not getting that, right? >> Right, because that is protected health information. >> Yeah, I I can't try to get her information. >> Right. >> But I can get >> can't you can't film anybody that's in here, either. >> Yes, I can. If they're in If I'm in a public's place, which I'm at right now, >> Okay. >> right? And I can see you. You're behind the counter. >> Right, but those people are here for health services. They have protected health >> I I understand that. >> Okay. >> But Okay, do I know what they're here for? >> Um you can figure that out. You can figure that out from what desk they're standing at. Yes, that is that can be um inferred or implied. >> anybody that walks in here can know that, right? If you're standing here and you see something >> it for Is it for your personal use? >> No, it's for It'd be public. Public on a >> Okay, so that is different. You know what? And I'm not I'm not arguing. You may be correct. I'm not saying that I am right and you are wrong. I'm just saying you're making the staff uncomfortable and you won't give us any additional information. >> Well, I told you what I was doing. I told you my first name. I'm being polite. >> I I know that you are. You are being polite, sir. >> I know that you are. You are being polite, sir. >> of that, you guys have cameras in here, correct? >> I am not going to answer that question. I am not going to answer that question. >> Because there is cameras in here. I've already seen some. >> I I am not going to answer that question. I actually am done. I'll let you and the sheriff work it out. >> All right. >> So, and I'm not trying to be confrontational with you, but I just want to know why it doesn't bother you that you're making people here uncomfortable. >> They shouldn't be uncomfortable over a camera when they're already being recorded. >> That is your assumption, sir. You do not know that. >> Well, a camera does not hurt anybody. Yeah. Yeah. >> I I don't think we have any more discussion. I'll just let them >> That needs to come down. >> That wasn't there. >> You guys have any >> As the dispute showed no sign of ending, it seemed like the arrival of police might finally clear things up. But one warning from an officer quickly turned the situation into a heated confrontation. >> How you doing, sir? >> What's going on? >> I'm good. Did Officer Burton >> What's going on? >> Just taking some pictures and video. >> Go on. >> Public information. Working on a story. I told them that. >> Okay. You >> got an idea what >> Hold on. I need ID for? >> Cuz I got called here for instance I need ID to identify you. >> I don't have the ID I need to work with. >> And they don't want you here, so >> They didn't tell me to leave for one. For two, they don't really have >> You want him to leave? You got to leave. >> Or? >> Or you go to jail. >> For trespassing? >> Yes. >> Okay, you know that's not right. >> Okay. Where's your ID? >> don't have the >> Let's go outside. >> You don't have the right to trespass me from here. >> Well, they don't want you here. You're not here for a reason. >> I am here for a reason. I told them I was working on a story. And I have every right to do so. >> Okay, well they don't want >> Just like I have every right to record you. You're a public employee. >> I have no issue with that. >> They're public employees. This is a public building. I was getting public information and asking questions. So as a journalist, I'm allowed to ask questions. And you can't stop me from doing it. >> Okay. >> So telling me that you're going to trespass me, that's wrong. >> Well, that's how it's going to work. >> And you're going to stick to that? >> Yep. >> Even though that the law says that you're you're not a feelings enforcer man. >> They don't want you here. >> The more they argued, the more confusing everything seemed to become. Just when it appeared the dispute had reached its limit, a few more questions raised an even bigger concern. Were any of these demands actually backed by clear legal authority? >> You got your ID on you? >> I'm not giving my ID I'm going to work with. >> Okay, well being in there was when they had no reason to be in there they can ask you >> I already told you I had a reason. >> Well, that's not a reason to keep them uncomfortable and wondering why you're there. >> I told them why I was there. And she said that she didn't know if I was within my rights or not, which you're supposed to go in there and tell her that I am. Not telling me that I have to leave. >> Okay, well you don't want to give me >> law and everything else. You want to read that? I'll tell you exactly why I'm allowed to be here and why you can't make me leave. >> Okay, well they don't want you inside the building. Okay. You can record out here and do whatever your story is, but they don't want you inside the building. >> to violate my rights, right? >> That's not violating your rights. They didn't want you to hear. They told me to tell you to leave. They don't want you here, so that's what we're going to go with. >> All right, so you're going to violate my rights, basically. >> I'm violating your rights. >> It is, cuz you want to read what the actual law is? Cuz you're law enforcement, not civilian law enforcement. >> aware of the the First Amendment. >> Okay, are you aware of all the case law that says I can do this? >> No. You can record out here if you want. I'm not saying you can't record in there. Well, they don't want you in there. >> But then it doesn't matter if they >> It's their right to not allow you in there. >> No, it's not. >> Yes, it is. >> It's a public building. >> Exactly, and they don't want you in here. >> and screaming and throwing stuff, then yes, they would have a right to say, "Hey, you can't be in here because you're causing a disturbance." >> They have the right to tell you to leave. It's that simple. >> Cuz I used How you doing? >> So, what's the story that you're working on? >> I don't have to disclose my story. I told you I'm a journalist working on a story, gathering public information. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> You have your credentials as [clears throat] a journalist? >> There is no such thing. >> Okay. All right. They don't want you here, so it's that simple. >> Yes, well >> All right. So, you you're saying you explained to them why you were here? >> Yeah, I explained to them why I'm here. >> Okay. All right, I'll be >> is Rummer. >> Rummer? Rummer. >> Rummer. >> Yeah, Rum. >> Kind of like the drink? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, do you guys know the actual law that I'm allowed to go in here as a journalist and gather content? >> That is not true. >> What do you mean that's not true? >> That's not true. If they don't want you here, it's still, even though it's public or government owned >> law on it. >> Yeah, I don't care. It's still government owned, and they have a right to refuse you to come in. >> That's not true. >> Yes, it is. >> I was just getting the stuff off the walls, and then like the posters and bulletins and stuff like that. And then I asked if there was any programs or what have you for like the winter and things like that. >> Like >> Just public >> No one was arrested. No one was charged. The unanswered question is not who won this confrontation, but whether everyone's rights were truly respected. Next, a camera, a confident claim from a postal employee, and a man who refused to back down. This seemingly minor confrontation quickly pushed the situation into a turn no one saw coming. >> Excuse me. >> I do. >> And may I ask why? >> Uh just cuz I'm filming in the post office. >> That's not allowed. >> Sure it is. It's right on the wall over there. >> What is? That it's allowed to film? >> Yeah, your rules are literally over on that wall. >> You're not allowed to film in the post office. >> It literally says you can over >> Especially because of security reasons. People are signing holding their debit cards, credit cards. We have security and we don't want to violate >> It literally says on the wall over there on poster seven that you can do it. >> How can I help you today? >> I was curious about on the the white wall over there, uh you've got space for lease. Are you talking about physical space or just >> Correct. >> Okay, so not the advertising wall space. But >> No. >> How much How much space is available over there? >> It's not over there. It's down in the downstairs. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. >> When the evidence was laid out right in front of them, the next reaction from the person in charge left many people confused. Was this just a simple misunderstanding, or was something pushing this dispute in a completely different direction? >> Yes, thank you. With your recording device. >> Why would you ask me to leave? >> Because you are not allowed to record in here. >> Ma'am, that that over there on poster seven says I can record. >> No, it does not. >> Ma'am, I will show it to you. >> You need my permission. You do not have my permission. >> you know what? >> Thank you. >> The district manager sent me an email. I can show it to you if you like. Rob Spurgeon sent me an email saying you literally can't stop me. You're not the authorized personnel. So, if you want, do something else." Jeez. Jeez, the most annoying people. >> Yeah, hold on. Yeah, have a good day. >> Yeah, you too, man. >> I'm going to have to ask you to leave. >> Who are you? >> I'm the postmaster. >> You're the postmaster? Okay. >> Yeah. >> This is completely legal to do. Your poster says it right here. >> Where does it say that? >> Here. Photographing for news, advertising, or commercial purposes. >> And what are your purpose? >> Documenting first amendment >> If you keep reading, though, I'm just saying. >> Yeah, or other authorized personnel. >> You're not authorized. >> Do you know who Rod Spurgeon is? >> I do not. >> He's the district manager. >> He's not the district manager. >> He is the >> The district manager of the Seattle postmaster is a female, number one. >> He is a Western Region District Manager. >> I don't know who that is. I only received the email. Do you want to see it? >> Yeah, I'd like to. >> Absolutely. >> Shut the camera off. >> But I'm not shutting the camera off. >> Well, then you can leave the property. >> I'm not leaving the property at all. >> You can call the PD if you want. >> I will. >> Okay. Good thing you need to understand, too, is the poster saying that excerpt >> I don't care what you >> It comes from 39 CFR 232.1. And there's a DHS memo from 2018 that says this is perfectly legal to do. >> It isn't. >> You know what? I got some literature for you if >> You I got some literature for you. Get out of my building. >> Here's the literature right here that says I can do everything that I'm doing right now. >> As the dispute showed no sign of ending, the arrival of police seemed like it would finally bring a clear answer. But a quick decision was made instead, leaving many to ask, who was actually standing on the side of the law? >> Must be here to talk to the postmaster and hang out? >> Uh, must be here to here to talk to the postmaster and hang out? >> Or I guess we're here to talk to you. Somebody called. >> Okay. >> Yeah, we'd like him to leave and be trespassed off the property. He's filming without our consent. >> Okay. >> It's not legal to be filming in the post office even though he says that it is. >> Unfortunately, that's not true. Their own rules from the postmaster general right there stipulate I can. >> With permission. >> And Rod Spurgeon from the United States Postal Service clarified for me in an email, which I'd be happy to share with you right now, that in fact I can do this very thing. >> So what you doing? Why did you come in? >> I'm just filming in public property. >> Why? >> I don't have to have a reason. It's public property. I don't have to have a reason. >> So you're just in here for shits and giggles filming? >> I didn't say I'm in here for that. >> So why are you here? >> I don't have to explain to you why I'm here. >> Well, I'm here because they told me to come here. So >> Okay, cool. >> They're the postmaster. Why are you here? >> ask. Am I being detained? >> So sir, I don't know the rules as far as what the post office has. >> I've got some literature here if you'd like to read it. >> That's fine. >> It's all the rules for the United States Postal Service. >> So it may have been legal prior to this moment because now you are being trespassed. >> You mean as of yesterday morning it was legal and it changed within the last 24 hours? >> No, it's not legal for you to be on the property. >> Absolutely it is. >> No, it is not any longer. That's why I'm advising you that you're now trespassed for a period of 365 days. >> So you're you're trespassing? >> Yeah, the manager has the right to trespass you off the property. That's correct. >> And what happens if I don't leave? >> You go to jail. You're subject to arrest. >> All right. So if I don't leave, you're going to arrest me. >> Uh, well, if you don't leave and they want to press charges, then yes. >> But you're saying if I don't leave, you're going to trespass. Are you going to arrest me? >> is I'll give you a reasonable amount of to have leave the property. If you fail to leave the property. >> But if I fail to do that, you're going to arrest me. >> Correct. Well, it depends if they want to press charges. If they want to press charges, yes. >> Well, the problem is is you have to make the choice whether or not you're going to arrest me if I don't leave. You're the ones here. You're the enforcement mechanism. So, They just said they want me to trespass. So, if I don't leave, they just said that, you're going to arrest me. >> If I contact them again and they say yes, I'd like to press charges, are you trespassing then? >> No, no, no. Yeah. You're telling me you want me to leave because they've trespassed and if I don't leave, what happens? >> You are subject to arrest. >> Okay. Well, then under threat of arrest and duress of that arrest, I'll leave. >> It seemed like everything was over once the officers got what they wanted, but their authoritative attitude and controversial decisions were now opening the door to a new fight beyond the scene. >> Can you come here for a sec? I'd like that I'd like that notice, by the way. >> You'd like >> I'd like the notice you're supposed to give either orally or verbally. Washington Administrative Code 468-308-06 discusses trespass warnings. So, I want it. >> I'll give you a blank copy. How about that? That's your card. >> What's your name and badge number? >> I'll give you a card. >> I don't know why you guys got to do this. You're just literally choosing >> I don't think I have one. >> to [ __ ] up. >> No, sir. I'm responding to a call for service. They called >> You know, seriously, look at this. >> off of their property. They explicitly identified you. So, I'm not going to engage in this for too long. My name is Officer Nelson. >> Oh, I need your ID. I need your card or your name and badge number, too. >> And my badge number is 12327. >> yours? >> I don't know his. >> Why do you want it? >> You have him on film, though. I think you can >> Obviously why. I already said I'm going to go talk to my attorney. Hell no, you can't. >> Why should I give you mine? >> Because you're a public servant. You work on my dime. >> All right, so. >> So, it's in your >> nothing to hide. I could give two craps, all right? You really >> I love it when I love it when you guys do this. You think that [music] that Q I is going to stand. You think it's going to stand. >> Stop. Dude, you're one of those. >> Oh, and then when it hits the civil court system, you're going to get wrecked. >> I'm sorry. This is a civil court system. >> I'm going to head over there and right now file the complaint. Have a good day, you dicks. >> When the officers' certainty seemed to have already decided everything, no one expected the real answer to come from the first person willing to listen. And what the sergeant confirmed moments later suddenly sent the entire situation in a different direction. >> saying this can't happen. So, basically what I want to have happen, I don't want this to escalate. I want to basically have it would be preferable as you go talk to him, that way they're not feeling all cornered. And then once it's squared away, I walk back in there and I'm like, "Look, I get that it's uncomfortable filming, but it is allowed by the Postmaster General and the District Manager for the West Coast." >> allowed. If it's not, it's not. Simple as that, really. >> And and that's in The frustrating thing about the officers is only that I tried to demonstrate to them all of the laws and the email from the District Manager's office, from Rod Spurgeon, and they're like not listening to it, not hearing it, I'm not going to look at it, you're trespass. And frankly, what's even more upsetting is I I really beat a drum. I said, "Look, um if you're going to arrest me, then under threat of arrest and arrest, I will leave cuz I don't want to get arrested. But at the same time, I shouldn't have to be put in a position to be told, "You're going to jail unless you bend the knee." >> Yeah. >> I You know, there's nothing wrong with what I did. So, this is what I'm going to do. >> Which post office was it? >> Uh the one down at Is Williams? >> Williams, yeah. We only have two here. Well, and then there's there's some in the Highlands, but two down here. >> So, it's just the one on Williams? >> Down down there, yeah. >> Okay, cool. >> Can I get your Just name? If you don't want to give me your name, that's fine. Cuz I I guess you didn't want to give it You want to give me just a a phone number, a first name? >> I I really don't want >> How do I get back to you then? >> I'm going to walk down there. >> Okay. >> So, I And I won't go in. I'll wait till you're done talking to him. >> Okay. Okay. >> And if if the postmaster wants to come out, we can all show the email to one another cuz he wouldn't listen to it either. >> Okay. >> He was I'm guessing feeling like his back was against the wall or something. I get it. I get it. Sometimes people get their hackles up and they get in the pride corner and they don't want to go, but I'll walk over there. I'll meet you over there and then when you're done talking to him, maybe we can all have a conversation. I just want the trespass notice gone. >> Yeah. >> He told me I can't go back there for a year. >> And that's pretty inconvenient. >> And Yeah, not only inconvenient, but it's not comporting with the USPS uh rules and regulations, which is a federal law, >> Yeah. >> as well as the DHS, which controls law enforcement. So, if a postal inspector showed up right now, you know what he'd be doing? >> No idea. >> He'd be saying, "I'm not doing anything because my daddy, my boss, the postmaster general, is in charge of me. I'm not doing anything about it because he said he can be here." >> Yeah. >> So, that's basically what I'm shooting for. >> Okay, sounds good to me. >> Sorry, you >> Yeah. >> You are an awesome professional. >> Sure you say that now. >> [laughter] >> No, I appreciate your demeanor. I do. I really appreciate >> it's the way you treat people. >> Yeah, I agree. >> You know, I mean It's that It's just simple to say. >> Yeah, I agree. >> You know, so >> I agree. >> you what, let me go down there, talk to them. I'll I'll look for you You'll be the orange jacket. You'll see me. >> Yeah. >> You know, so uh Give me give >> With one simple verification, the claims that had been made with such certainty began to fall apart. But if the man had done nothing wrong, then what were those earlier threats really based on? >> So, how else is your day going? >> What's that? >> I said, "How else is your day going?" >> My day's going great. >> Good. >> I uh I I just I couldn't be a happier man. I have a wonderful family and >> Good. That's what counts. >> I have a beautiful country and >> And you're healthy. >> And I'm healthy. >> You're 100% man. >> Yep. There's a lot more things to >> Oh, are you kidding me? >> be overwhelmed by it, but >> So, you're ahead of us, just to let you know. >> Yeah, sorry about that. >> Yeah. We just got to >> How about how about you, sir? How's your day going along? >> Every day is a good day. Every day above ground is a good day for me. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, actually I've done this. I've been doing this for >> I apologize. >> I've been doing this for uh >> going [snorts] on 44 years now. You've been a You've been a police officer for 44 >> Hang on, let me catch my breath. >> [laughter] >> Oh boy. >> Yeah, and you know what? This is still a great job. >> You mean >> Everybody's got a story. And I love that. Everybody has [snorts] got a story. And you talk to these wonderful people like you. You know, you talk to these wonderful people, and if you can help them out and you can go I mean, you're not going to solve people's problems. And some of the big, huge problems that they have, you're probably not going to solve them in a few hours. Sure. But, if you can solve someone's problem for a little bit, you're good. >> I'm like, I want to be a cop. >> He's got a good impression of law enforcement. >> I do. >> impression of this. >> I do. >> Man, that that's everything. >> [snorts] >> I will say like my my >> Could you have a manager come back out here for just a moment, please? Thank you so [snorts] much. We'll be We'll be out here in the lobby. >> Sure. >> Yep. >> Uh but, you know, I I I did not have a favorable impression going going away. However, the reason I went over is because I again, people can make mistakes. Two, um if they make a mistake, I think they should be offered the opportunity to correct it. And have everybody be cordial and polite and solve the problem that way. And you know, if then it it's not solved and and people are really upset, >> He just He just wants to say a couple things nice things. >> Everything's good to go now? >> Yep. >> Yes, apparently. >> Okay. I I appreciate it. Thank you. >> Now we've spoken, so Thank you very much for your time. >> I'm so sorry. >> But, no. Nothing to be sorry about. Yep. >> You're amazing. >> Should you say that now? >> [laughter] >> Have a good day, ma'am. >> Good day. Goodbye. >> In the end, the truth finally spoke for itself, but it also exposed how one unchecked decision can push a citizen dangerously close to losing their rights. Citizens can sue police under Section 1983 when their rights are violated. Officers who violate those rights may face compensation payouts, disciplinary action, or even termination. The law exists to protect everyone's rights, and only when it is applied fairly can it truly build trust in society. So, what do you think about this situation? 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