What are you a coward? You don't have 2 seconds, bro. I got to ask you a question. What's my new name? You don't have the balls to tell me? >> record this lab, but in the state of Illinois, it is illegal to record people, especially in the aid office. And being a black man, you should not be recording everybody business. >> What? >> I'm getting back to work. >> Yeah. >> A law-savvy citizen. Police officers backed into a corner. And a confrontation that left many asking one critical question. Who was truly following the law? >> All right, but you have discretion to decide whether or not that complaint is legitimate or not. Okay? You can be arrested for calling So how What is the definition of harassment? How did I harass him? State the statute. How did I What are you talking about? >> New York State Penal Law. >> Remember earlier when we me and you spoke, you told me I can walk around and film, right? You You didn't tell me that? Oh, wow. You're lying on camera. >> A citizen walked into a public building to exercise his legal rights, but what happened next raised a much bigger question. What happens when the very people entrusted to enforce the law are challenged by the law itself? A brief encounter on a crowded street sparked a chain of controversial events. But what the camera captured next was what truly stood out. >> Yep. So we're going to see what that's all about. You got a second? What are you a coward? You don't have 2 seconds, bro. I got to ask you a question. What's my new name? You don't have the balls to tell me? We're on you, bro. We're watching you. So I was just walking down the sidewalk with my wife. And there's a guy that owns an art gallery here in the parking lot which is called the Terry Wallace Gallery. I'm going to walk over there and give you a shot of it now. And Terry Wallace, who owns the gallery, actually yells over to the cop, "Hey, Dickhead's here." Yep. And the cop said, "Oh, thanks for the heads-up." Got in his car, walked across the parking lot, got in his car, and left. Um So, I guess I interrupted his ticket-writing session here for the time being. So, this is the Terry Wallace Gallery. And Mr. Wallace is having lunch at a cafe down the street. Well, I wasn't going to mention the name, but he left a note on his door with his cell phone number. Good. Let's give Mr. Wallace a call. >> A publicly listed phone number, a seemingly harmless question, and then everything quickly spiraled out of control. Within minutes, a threat involving the police had already entered the conversation. >> Cats, Phantom of the Opera, and many other things, and and has brought joy to millions of people and made millions of dollars doing it. Wonderful experience. Yeah. >> Well, I'm not old, but I have to go to Venice Beach to get a bounce. >> No. No, no. I'm still looking for I you know, I'll be 50 this year. I'm still looking for my bounce, but I I smell it's getting closer. >> Where do you smell it? >> I don't know. You know, I mean, some people say they They to be 18 again. I wouldn't go back to being 18 again. I'm at I'm actually in the middle >> I want to file a charge against >> I'm actually in the middle of a conversation. >> I'm going to file a charge against you for harassment. You called me on my phone. >> Young lady, it's been wonderful speaking to you. Enjoy your day. Thank you so much. Oh, I will absolutely be taping. I'm taping right now. >> Good. I want to file a charge against against you for harassment. You're a nuisance in the village of East Hampton. >> Please keep your finger out of my face. Please arrest them, officer. >> Okay. We'll get a signed complaint. >> Yep. >> You understand He he's willing to sign a formal complaint stating that you harassed him. >> Okay. Well, he'll >> Waiting outside the restaurant, calling on the phone. I got >> I was actually having a conversation with this nice young lady. >> cell phone records. This guy called me. I can very easily prove it. He called me on my cell phone. >> Is calling someone against the law? >> When you threaten them and harass them >> you? I recorded the phone I recorded the phone call, so be careful. >> Okay. Well, you harassed me. You called me up. What are you doing? >> How did I harass you if you don't mind me asking? >> Just by calling me. >> No, what did what did I do? >> calling me for business. You're calling me to [ __ ] with me. >> No, not at all. I actually No, no, no, no, no. I I'm walking down the street with my wife. >> I want to know who this guy is. >> Can I >> I want him locked up, and that's it. >> Okay. Arrest him. >> All right. Yeah. >> Okay. He's been looking for trouble, and he's going to get it. >> If it only worked that way, Mr. Wallace, you'd be, you know, you'd be king. But, that's not the way the world works. >> but I'm not looking to be harassed. >> Can I speak to you privately for a moment so I can give you my side of the story? >> his side of the story here. You say your side of the story. >> Okay, that's fine. If he'll let me speak because he keeps cutting me off. Can I speak to >> When a public confrontation was on the verge of spiraling out of control, all eyes turned to law enforcement. But, their response afterward raised even bigger questions than the incident itself. >> Okay, good. Thank you. And can I get your name and badge number, sir, please? >> Really? >> Yes. [laughter] I'm asking you for >> Braveman. Shield 6. >> Thank you very much. That's That wasn't hard, was it? I'm just asking. And since you're here, can I get your name and badge number, please? >> Officer Smith, badge number 78. >> Thank you, Officer Smith. I've never been anything but cordial with you guys, and you know that. You can't name one time in the 35 years that you've known me that I've ever been disrespectful to you. Sure, you have. >> No, I haven't. >> Yeah, you don't remember. You've known me for a very long time. Yeah. >> You did a small statement >> We met when I was 18 18 years old. Well, so that was 32 years ago. I'm off by a few years. And Officer Smith here will tell you, I think in our interactions, I've been very respectful to you. We've been very cordial to each other. There's no issues. Mr. Wallace wants to walk through a parking lot yelling [ __ ] at people. That to me is harassment, and that to me crosses a line because I did not say anything disrespectful to you. >> Did he say your name? >> He pointed right at me. >> He didn't point at you. >> Oh, yes, he did. Yes, he did. >> You have it on tape, do you? >> Yes, I do. I always record. And there's a reason. And why are you asking if I have it on tape? You should know You should know what you said. >> Because I'm telling you that it's not >> Your story's already changed three times. Review the tape. You'll see a copy of it. And again, as a former Marine, you should know oath to the Constitution of the United States of America. And if you wanted to know what I was doing, you could have just simply asked me, and I would have explained myself to you. >> Waiting outside the restaurant for me. Call me up. >> You asked >> You crossed the line. That's where you crossed the line. >> that is not I'm standing on a public sidewalk. >> you're a tough guy. You called >> No, I'm standing I'm not acting like you're the one stating you're an ex-Marine and you're going to you're not going to tolerate it and I'm going to be sorry and you're going to make me pay for what I'm doing. >> like these guys. I don't have to listen to your crap, okay? >> I'm not like these guys, either. I'm standing on a public sidewalk. I can film and do I can stand here all day and film this place for >> You can. >> 36 hours. >> The difference [music] is >> See, now you're calming down. Now we can talk. >> The difference is you crossed the line when you called me, number one, gave me a hard time, and number two >> I didn't give you a hard time. You gave me a hard time. >> you I'm not giving you an interview and you came and you >> A man was facing the threat of arrest, yet simple legal questions were met with no clear answers. Then the sergeant's next statement left many wondering, do the people enforcing the law truly understand the limits of their own authority? >> I do explain to you that it's called a civilian arrest. >> You can be arrested for calling so how What is the definition of harassment? How did I harass him? State the statute. How did I What are you talking about? >> New York State Penal Law >> How did I What are you talking about? >> New York State Penal Law definitely >> Well, if you're going to arrest somebody, yes, you are. You're going to get very into New York State Penal Law. You're going to get into qualified immunity and a lot of things. >> You're missing the point. >> No, I'm not missing the point. >> you it's a civilian arrest. >> No, let me explain because nobody No, no, no. No, I'm not getting Well, you listen, you're threatening me with arrest. Of course I'm going to get defensive. Okay? Mr. Wallace, Mr. Wallace has his phone number handwritten on the door of his business that says, "I am at John Pappas. Call my cell with the phone number." That's what I did. Okay? So, if you want to consider that harassment, and when I called him, I said, "Mr. Wallace, this is Jason Goterman. I just like to know why my new name is dickhead." That's all I said. He started screaming at me, "I'm an ex-Marine. You don't know who you're [ __ ] with. You don't know I'm going to make sure you get arrested, blah, blah, blah, blah." >> Is there a licensing for them taking my picture and sitting on the seat thing? >> My God. >> Talk to the photographer about it. >> So, that's just ridiculous. And you know what? I hope you arrest me. I really do. I really do. >> let me finish, Jason. >> I'd be happy to let you finish, but don't blame me for being upset. >> civilian arrest. I'm not saying you have any right to be upset or not upset. I Honestly, that doesn't matter to me. I Honestly, that doesn't matter to me. We have a complaint that we're following up on. The complaint came from Mr. Wallace. Mr. Wallace, if he has >> If he's got legal grounds. >> Doesn't matter about legal grounds. Doesn't matter about legal grounds. >> So I could just So I >> So you're going to fill out a report. >> I can just make up anything I want against him. >> charged. It's a civilian arrest. >> Sergeant Bennett, can I speak with you for a minute, please? >> Yeah, turn that camera off and I'll speak with you all you want. >> If I turn the camera off, why would I turn the camera off? >> What do you want to talk to me about? >> You want me to turn my camera off? What do you What do I want you to talk You got Mr. Wallace's side of the story. You're not interested in here. I'm the one that asked for a supervisor. You need me to turn my camera off? >> Then I'll talk to you. >> Why We're standing on a public sidewalk and I'm being threatened with arrest. And for my safety, I I'd like to talk to you in private right here, 10 ft away, just like Mr. Wallace did. Thank you. >> The threat of arrest seemed to dangerously close. At least that was what many people believed in that moment. But then, one crucial detail surfaced at the last minute and sent the entire story in a completely different direction. >> Listen, I would just be very careful because it's all >> Are you done now? >> Yes. >> Okay, good. Have a nice day. >> He's not filing charges. He's not doing anything. >> Okay. Very good. >> You're free to go. >> Thank you, sir. You have a wonderful day. >> In the end, no arrest was made and Jason was free to leave. But what unfolded at the scene still left serious controversy over how the law was enforced, the limits of police authority, and the role of recording and protecting citizens' rights. Next, just minutes after walking into a government building, this man was met with unexpected resistance from security staff. What was it about an act that seemed completely harmless that pushed the atmosphere to the brink of confrontation? >> Today, we're at the Illinois Department of Human Services out in Blue Island, Illinois. And we're just getting ready to see they respect our rights to record in public and to make sure that our rights are not infringed on by anyone at any time. So, let's go see. >> Hello. >> Hello. >> Can I help Can I ask why you're recording? >> I'm sorry? >> Can I ask why you're recording? >> I'm just documenting today. >> Why do you have to document? >> I'm just documenting my day, man. It's It's cool, right? >> Um they don't allow They don't allow people to record. >> Who don't? >> The state. >> The state? >> Yeah, cuz I'm like, why you have to record? >> Well, I'm just documenting, man. I mean, they probably They probably would let them know that I should be good to go with you. Just want to reconfirm with them. >> I know what the manager would be wouldn't be okay with just somebody coming in and recording, you know what I'm saying? I can understand that. >> Yeah, if I understand if you came in and you asked or something like that and you told them it's a purpose or something like that, that'd be different. But you came in and you recording right now. >> That's correct, but see the thing is, we we got a right to do it. So, you should I'm being honest with you, man. >> I'm not I'm not saying you lying. >> Oh, okay. >> I'm just you hitting hitting me with that. >> Oh, that's too much for you? >> It's just one of them. >> Oh. >> It's too early for it. >> Oh, okay. Well, yeah. So, I mean, it's one of these people people who manage Is there a manager here or right there? >> You need to talk to somebody? >> No, I'm straight. I mean, I know you do that you started going towards talking about a manager. I thought you was probably going to go get him or she. Is she Oh, okay. >> No, I'm just asking you what you here What's the state of business, brother? >> I'm just going to come in and document the building and I'm possibly file a FOIA request. That's it. >> What you mean document the building? >> Like what I'm doing right now. >> Like what What you mean like what? Walking around or something like that? >> That's correct. >> Can't let you do that, man. >> You can't let me do it. What you mean? >> Can't let you do it. >> I'm I'm allowed to do it, though. >> Hold on one second. >> Okay. >> You can't let him come to the front, man. >> When security staff could no longer handle the situation, a man claiming to be a manager stepped in and made a decision that seemed to settle everything. But then the arrival of police exposed contradictions that no one saw coming. >> You're the You're the manager, sir? >> Mhm. >> Yeah, like I was trying to convey to this young man. I'm here to document and file a FOIA with this department. Um after that, I'll be good to go. >> You have to do what again? >> Record in public, which I have a First Amendment right to do, and file a FOIA with this department. >> File a FOIA? >> That's correct. >> With this department? >> That's correct. You familiar with a FOIA is? >> Yeah, what are you trying to file a FOIA? >> Are you familiar? No, of course not. A FOIA, sir. Not a Not a Not a complaint, just a FOIA. >> hear you. >> Oh, okay. Oh, okay. So, not not a lawsuit at all, just a FOIA. So, it's Freedom of Information Act. >> Uh-huh. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> You familiar, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay, for sure. Yeah. So, that's all I want to do and like I was trying to tell him, after that I should be good to go. >> Okay, how long are you going to be here cuz normally we don't require or have anyone in the government agency recording. >> Normally. >> Not at all. >> Okay, well the No, so you said no one else comes in and does it. Well, they probably don't know that they have a right to do it. So, you know, this is kind of different today with me. >> This is kind of different today with you. >> Yeah, cuz I understand my rights. Yeah, yeah, respectfully. >> Okay, so I'm going to have you stand over here. >> Well, why would I stand over there? >> So, you can record because we don't have any customers right here. >> So, where do I go so I can file a FOIA? >> You You You can record everything you want here. Right over there in the corner. >> Yeah, I need to But you see all these You see this right here? All them public records on the wall. I need to get those shots as well. >> You need to You need to You want the pamphlets? You can take some with you. >> Well, I need to I need to go over there and which ones are available. >> We'll go right on over there and >> Oh, okay, because you were just telling me I had to stand in line and do so. >> So, see you weren't talking about no pamphlets giving information. >> Yeah, and I That's what That's what I mean about documents. So, that's what I mean about documents, sir. I want to record the entire building. >> Okay. >> Just the publicly accessible areas, not going past any restricted doors. Exactly. I know that. I'm pretty familiar with that. So, and then I want to follow for you. So, which line do I stand in for that? >> Which line? >> Yeah. >> For a pamphlet? >> Not for the FOIA. Like a FOIA form where you could possibly give me one, right? >> No. >> You can't give me a FOIA sheet? >> No. >> Why not? >> Cuz we don't have any here. >> Okay, well, I'll fill it out on a blank sheet. >> Yeah, you can go on I guess the website, the government website and get it and then you get your documentation from there. >> Um yeah, I know, but I'm going to do it I want to do it in person. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I know. I see that. Okay, and I can record to do that, right? Of course. Of course. So, yeah, if you want to educate this young man that I'm able to do what I'm able to do. >> Just when everyone thought the situation was finally coming to an end, an unexpected twist reignited the conflict. As more people became drawn into the dispute, events began unfolding in a direction that no one could have predicted. >> Like I was just telling him, just to be able to exercise our rights because uh rights are like muscles, right? If you don't exercise them, you'll lose them. >> So, you woke up this morning on that type of thing? >> I do this all over the world, all over the country. What is my What's What's your name? >> I I gave you my name. >> You're absolutely correct. My name is James. >> Name is what? >> Well, I ain't going to James is sufficient. You don't need my last name. Absolutely. Want me to write it down for you? I mean, you might want to see yourself, man. They're going to eat you up in the comments, man. They're going to They're going to eat you up in the comments, man. I'm going to be I'm going to be perfectly honest with you, man, because >> I hear that you're recording this live, but in the state of Illinois, it is illegal to record people, especially in the aid office. And being a black man, you should not be recording everybody's business. >> What? >> I'm getting back to work. >> Yeah, you should. You definitely should. You definitely I You definitely should. She's totally misinformed, but that's all right. A lot of us are. >> a media influencer or something like that? Social influencer? >> Absolutely, man. Just, you know, basically trying to show people that you can exercise your rights and hopefully >> Just come outside real quick. >> Okay. I'm going but I'm going to come back in though. >> Well, you got everything then. >> After the entire office became consumed by increasingly heated disputes, police were finally called to the scene. But instead of quickly calming tensions, the events that followed turned the situation upside down in a way no one expected. And within minutes, the prospect of a direct confrontation over authority and legal procedures was suddenly impossible to ignore. >> How you doing today, officer? >> Good. What's going on, man? >> Uh what I'm trying to do, like I explained to several people here that work here, I'm here to file a FOIA and document the building. The young man behind you was on the phone right now. When he first approached me, he said that he was a manager of this facility. He acknowledged our rights and said, "Okay, yeah, if you want to go film the public, you have a right to record." So, I started to do that. In the midst of ending that, this young man wanted to talk to me. So, I stepped to the side to have a dialogue with him. When I did that, all these people showed up and started trying to infringe on my rights to record. Plus, I have a right to file a FOIA request today. That's all I'm trying to do. And I'm out of here. That's it, officer. >> Can you file it or >> There's no There's no FOIA request here. I am the administrator. The manager is this gentleman here. He is a manager. He wants to film a pamphlet. He's filming the I was telling him this gentleman filming people. He was filming other things. It makes people feel uncomfortable. We asked him to leave. He refused to leave. So, that's why we're asking you. >> So, where can he get this paper document? >> That's That's That's That's not here. >> So, so off off- officer, real quick. How you doing, officer? We're explaining it and I'm trying to basically just trying to document this public property and file a FOIA request. Um they're trying to tell me that they have no FOIA forms, which is okay. I can fill it out on a blank sheet and turn it in that way. I'll be good to go. >> The paperwork that you're trying to obtain here is not here. >> I I'm I'm just >> Things suddenly descended into chaos as earlier statements no longer seemed to match what had been said before. Meanwhile, the female officer's apparent misunderstanding of the law only continued to escalate the pressure. But at the very peak of the tension, a new figure unexpectedly stepped into the scene. >> And again, you you do you do acknowledge that you told me I had a right to do it, right? >> Well >> You remember earlier when we me and you spoke? You told me I can walk around and film, right? >> No. >> You You didn't tell me that? >> Oh, wow. You're lying on camera. >> I said you can go over there and fill out the form. >> I'm talking about those pamphlets. Remember you said you can get >> You can get the pamphlets. >> You didn't say I can record it? >> No, I said you can go over there to the wall and pick up a sample. >> So officers, are you guys interested in seeing him lying right quick? I can show it to you. >> Uh that's neither here nor there because I said >> It is. >> Sir, it >> Sir, it is because because they're inciting something, sir. They're lying and trying to get you guys to step on my rights today. >> Well, we're not exactly stepping on your rights. You can actually leave right now. >> He's trespassing at this point. >> Absolutely not. Can't trespass on public property during normal business hours, okay? >> If you fail to leave, now you got confirmation that you can't do this here. >> Okay, so I Are you a sergeant, sir? Okay, so sergeant, I know you just showed up real quick. Let me just brief you on what's going on. Uh today I came in to document the state facility, which is public property. When I spoke to first first spoke to him right there, he told me that he was a manager and he said, "Okay, sir, you're allowed to go do it." So I started to do it. Then this guy right here interjected and stopped me from doing it. My second part for being here is to file a FOIA. Now, even though this agency doesn't have forms for me to do it, the state of Illinois by law says I can fill it out on a blank sheet and that should suffice. All I'm saying is if they're not going to allow me to exercise my rights today and then have you guys come here to aid them, it's going to You know what I mean? You get what I'm saying? It's going to get real messy, man. >> Okay. >> I'm just exercising rights today. >> Okay. So, what are you looking to do? >> I just Well, I already got those pamphlets and everything on the wall. Now, I want to do a FOIA request. >> Okay. >> And that's it. I can fill it out literally on that sheet right there, turn it in, and then I'm out of the door. Literally. >> All right. Do you have a blank piece of paper or >> Yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm filling it out on any one of these public records right here. That's it. >> I mean, there's there's no forms here. That's what they telling him. >> See, see they they they thinking about an actual FOIA form. I'm just talking about a blank sheet. I can show you guys the the law, the FOIA law, where it says no standard form is necessary. >> Right. Well, I mean, that's for you guys to deny that later. You know what I mean? >> Thank you, go, sergeant. Thank you, sergeant. Thank you, sergeant. >> Sure. Right. My point being is if he wants to turn in a thing, whatever you guys choose to do with it, that's how >> Thank you, sergeant. That's all I was saying. >> You know what I mean? So, then that would be that. >> Okay. So, I don't think that you're going to get something anyway. >> What? The sergeant The sergeant does his >> After a series of heated arguments and mounting demands, the story finally reached a critical turning point. But what happened next was completely different from what many people had been expecting all along. >> No, that's all I wanted to do, man. >> Have a good day. >> All right. For sure. So, what what's what's what's your badge number, Officer James? 149. And you, sergeant? 210. Appreciate that. And you, officer? Oh, he's not an officer. That's behind you guys, huh? Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Yeah, man. So, see how we This how they This how they man These people here, man, is totally misinformed, man. Called the police to try to help aid and violate our rights today. with >> And just like that, it was over. No arrest, no citation, no punishment. Yet what unfolded inside that building that day will likely leave many people wondering what happens to citizens' rights when they don't know the law well enough to defend them? Citizens can sue police under Section 1983 when their rights are violated. Officers who violate those rights may face compensation payouts, disciplinary action, or even termination. In a society governed by the rule of law, respecting the rights of others and understanding the limits of one's own authority are essential to preventing unnecessary conflicts. Hey everyone, what do you think about this situation? If you enjoyed the video, don't forget to like, subscribe, and support us with a donation. Thank you so much. >> [music]