Okay, sir. You're not allowed on the property. You're not allowed inside. Okay. You're trespassed. Okay. So, you're not allowed >> by who? >> The Illinois Secretary of State. The The people who have this property have a right to trespass you. >> Well, it's public property. >> Yeah. But we can trespass you from this property. Okay. Because it's state property. >> A single baseless demand from the police ignited an almost unbelievable confrontation. >> We secured property. I didn't go in a restricted area. >> What's your name? >> Public property. >> What's your name? >> It's none of your business. >> What's your name? >> It's none of your business. Okay. >> Arrogant cops rarely admit they're wrong because their egos won't allow it. And when they ignore the Constitution, the price they pay comes fast and expensive. An ordinary man walked into the Salem DMV with a camera. No shouting, no interference, no disruption. Yet that alone was enough to make this small bureaucratic machine react as if it had just uncovered a national security threat. >> Officer, >> I'm doing good. How are you? >> Not too bad. You >> mind if I start with your name and badge number? >> Yep. Officer McMan and 214 is my badge number. >> Can you say your last name? I don't want >> Mcme. >> McMan. Yep. >> And what was the number again? >> 214. >> 214. You go outside and we'll talk real quick and we'll figure out what's going on. >> Respectfully, I don't Am I being ordered to go outside? Yeah, we're going to go outside and play. >> So, I'm being detained right now. >> Just until we figure out what they want done. >> What do you mean by what they want done? >> Would you come in record for >> Cuz it's a constitutional right. >> Doing anything other than that or >> Yeah, I'm going to file a foyer request before I leave. >> Yeah, more than welcome to, man. >> Appreciate that. >> No problem. >> You want to head outside and we'll talk though. >> If I'm not being ordered to go outside, I'd rather not because I do have the right to be in here. So, unless I'm under the threat of arrest, >> questions. >> How we doing? >> I'm doing good. How are you? Mind if I get your name and badge number? >> Yeah. My name's investigator Ryan Meter with the Illinois Secretary of State Police. >> Yes, sir. >> Uh, are you a first amendment auditor? Is that what you're doing? >> I'm just a citizen exercising constitutional rights today. >> Sure. So, as you know, there's a sign there that says, "Notice recording or photography of any type is not allowed." >> Okay. >> Yep. So, we can't have you videotaping inside the facility. And there's that. case law favors. State of Illinois asked to not allow the recording or photography of any type in secretary of state facilities. All inquiry should be directed to the secretary of state office of the general counsel 217-7853094 and ask >> do you have any case law attached with this that you'd be willing to provide me or >> contact the general counsel and they'll be able to give it to you. So, do you have your ID on you? >> No, I don't actually. >> Okay. What's your name, partner? >> Am I being detained right now? >> I mean, unless the Secretary of State wants you to trespass. That's why I'm trying to get your name. >> Okay. Uh, what statute would that be trespassing under? State supported land. >> Will you disregard sign that says recording of any type is not allowed. So, you violated that sign. >> So, you are suspecting me of trespassing. >> I'm saying if we want to trespass you, I would need your name. So, >> as of right now, you're not being trespassed. >> Okay. So, as of right now, I'm not under suspicion of a crime. >> Okay. Here's the thing. If you show back up and you cause issues, then we'll have your name. >> Nobody even asked me to leave. >> Okay. >> Okay. Well, they're asking you to leave. >> Okay. Or respectfully, I'm going to decline. Okay. >> So, now you are trespassing. >> Okay. >> So, what is your name? >> Would you mind before we move any more forward because I'm I'm going to do I'm going to do you a favor. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Before anybody loses qualified immunity, look up the statute that you're willing to trespass me under and cite that. I I promise you it. >> Are you Are you refusing to leave the property? >> Will I be arrested if I don't leave? >> You'll be cited. >> Yeah, >> I'll be cited with what sighting? >> Criminal trespass to property. Actually, it's criminal trespass to state supported property. There's your refusal. >> Look that statute up and it will be in plain text why I am not in violation of that statute. I've just been through this. I >> The Secretary of State Police showed up and immediately deployed their favorite weapon policy. No statute, no case law, just state policy, says no recording. When the law doesn't exist, internal rules get upgraded into imaginary law. Do >> yourself a favor and speak with him. >> I told you my first name. Can I at least get your first name? So, I'm not saying sir. >> Respectfully, I'm not going to. You can you can just call me sir. I appreciate that. >> Okay, sir. You're not allowed on the property. You're not allowed inside. Okay. You're trespassed. Okay. So, you're not allowed >> by who? >> The Illinois Secretary of State by trespass as a as a state officer right now. I'm trespassing you from the property. Whether or not you have a right to be somewhere, the the people who have this property have a right to trespass you. >> Well, it's public property. >> Yeah. But we can trespass you from this property. Okay. Cuz it's state property. So, you're just going to not even do yourself the favor and call Tim Hudsmith. >> I called my sergeant. That's all I need to call. >> But the prosecuting attorney of this county, you're not willing to state policy dictates exactly what I gave you. >> Well, respectfully, I'm I'm trying to help you here, right? Because I'm not you're misinformed. I've already been through this in the area in Marian County with Tim Hudsmith. Okay. >> No, you don't understand nor you don't care. I appreciate what you have to say. >> I don't feel like you do because you're trying to violate my rights and you're not even willing to go through any single route to rectify your mistake right now. So the under the authority of who? >> The Illinois Secretary of State Police >> because it's going to come down on yourself personally and your department. >> You have the number for our general counsel. >> I don't need counsel to exercise my constitutionally given rights. >> Yeah, I understand that. Because the citizen didn't comply with a mere verbal request, police instantly shifted gears and labeled it trespassing. No legal analysis, no review of conduct, just an administrative label used to shut down a camera, a tactic abused daily. >> Ticket and send you on your way for criminal trespass. Okay. >> But because I'm being so defying, it's going to escalate. >> What it is that's failure to identify. So I have to write a name on that ticket. >> So you suspect me of a crime? >> I do. So, I've been detained this whole time. >> Right now, you are cuz you're refusing to leave the property. >> So, if I leave >> So, if I just walk away right now, then what? >> Then I'm going to let you walk away because I don't want to write you a ticket. I don't want to take you to jail. >> Stay on this property any longer, then I am going to have to put handcuffs on you and take you to the jail you don't want that either because >> it seems like you do. >> No, I don't. >> You're not even willing to go down an avenue that I've >> What time I get off work? >> 4:00 4:16. Nobody's forcing you to violate my rights right now, sir. >> I'm sorry you feel that way. >> You don't even do yourself the favor of calling him, though. Like, I >> sergeant. That's all that's all I need to call. And I provided you documentation uh from our legal counsel as far as >> Would either one of you be willing to call Tim Hudith? >> No, this is Secretary of State property. Secretary of State. >> And I just read you the statue that he was trying to >> cite me with. So, nobody's willing to even save yourselves the qualified immunity. >> From what I'm gathering, we're kind of at an impass, right? >> Well, yeah, because I'm exercising rights and you're violating rights. That's the impass. >> I'm sorry you feel that way. >> So, right now, you are on state property. Okay. So, and I am asking you to leave. If you fail if you fail to leave, then you will be charged for a criminal trespass. >> What is that? A book and release or is it down to the jail? You hold me for the weekend or >> As of right now, you're failing to identify. >> Okay. >> So, if you >> So, we're stacking charges. >> Yeah. for exercising rights. >> So, so fail to identify, then you're going to be taken in a fingerprinted so I can get your identity. So, then I can write you the ticket and then you can be >> How does that work? You guys beat me into oblivion until I'm willing to till you can forcefully I mean because So, if I'm >> Why would you say beat you into oblivion? Why would you use terminology? >> Well, because I'm not willing to uh identify. So, I'm not going to be willing to fingerprint. Right. So just because you put me in handcuffs and put me in a car and take me somewhere, I'm supposed to just be willing to >> Well, the problem that we have >> wave my rights now >> is so criminal trespass is just a ticket. That's all it is, >> right? >> But whenever you start failing to identify and stuff like that, what name are we going to put on the ticket if you're not willing to identify? >> Well, it's not a ticket though. It's not criminal trespass. I just read him the statute. He's not willing to listen. I will redo the statute. >> Because you're refusing cuz we gave you the opportunity to leave and now you're not doing it. When trespass failed, they switched to failure to identify the fallback charge when nothing else works. The message was simple. Comply on my terms or become a criminal. This is how fifth amendment rights get twisted into non-compliance. >> Not willing to call Tim Hudz, the Marian County prosecuting attorney. This is It'll go directly to his desk, will it not? Am I wrong? >> Not necessarily. >> Where was it? Where will it go then? It could go to his voicemail. He's a busy guy. >> Come on. >> I called the state. >> You know what he's going to do? He's going to drop the charges immediately. He's going to review the body camera. He's going to drop the charges immediately and then we're going to start litigating it and I don't want to do that, man. I've been having a good day. >> The problem that you're going to run into is as of right now, I'm telling you to leave. >> I promise manager wants you to leave. >> They they don't have that right. >> The manager of the >> Oh, I promise you they don't have the right. We've already been down this with Tim Hudsmith himself. He's already tried this. And >> if somebody comes in here and causes an issue, >> I'm not causing an issue >> right now. You are cuz you're not leaving. >> I'm exercising a constitutionally protected activity, sir. >> That if that's causing an issue to you, sorry that you feel that way. That's not very American. Nor is it very um oath that you honored to uphold to the Constitution of you. You you all swore an oath to uphold the Constitution and nobody here. 25% of us that were standing here care about that. Do you guys realize that? That's me. You don't care. You don't care. And you don't care because nobody has given themselves the due diligence of calling Tim Hudith and confirming this. I promise you. It's going to look really bad. This stuff gets posted online. You know, obviously it gets posted online. The citizen repeatedly asked to call the local prosecutor who had already confirmed the activity was legal, but police refused. One call would have unraveled their narrative. When officers refuse to verify the law, it's no longer a mistake. It's intentional. >> I got some clarification for you, buddy. >> So, you are allowed inside, just not recording. Okay? So, as of right now, you're not being trespassed from the property. Okay? But you can't be inside recording. You can be outside recording. Okay? But you can't be inside. You understand? >> Did he convey to you what he's doing? Cuz I'm just curious. I'm still pushing. I'm I'm really hazarding you guys to call Tim Hudsmith. >> Yeah. >> That I I you know, or I I don't know what else to give you. I gave them You can call Lieutenant Right now or in Centrellia. He just dealt with this in less than a month. I'm good to go, man. I'm I'm exercising right. >> You're not allowed inside to record. You can go inside if you have business to conduct. You can record outside. >> Yeah. got a foyer request >> and and you can be outside recording. Okay. Um any other questions as far as regarding case law and stuff? I would ask that you contact that number that I provided. Okay. >> Muted, right? >> Not muted. >> Not muted. >> Appreciate that, sir. >> Thank God. >> Appreciate it, sir. I'm going to come inside with you since I do have the right to. say as long as you stay in the public area obviously. >> Yeah, of course. That's all I had been doing. Didn't bother anybody with the states attorney and he advised me at this point. >> This is our Mary County state. So, >> I mean, as long as they're happy from Salem PD from our standpoint, there's nothing that we can do. No broken >> as far as SOS. >> Not this. >> That's going to be up to >> Yeah, he's still out there. >> Okay. We're going to go ahead and wrap it up later. >> Okay. Yeah. Whatever. >> I'm just doing what I was ter. >> In the end, a supervisor stepped in and settled it. Entry allowed. No recording, no trespass, no arrest. Every threat vanished, not because the citizen was wrong, but because pushing further would have been costly. One thing was clear, without knowing the law, that day would have ended in a jail cell. Next is an incident at a Memphis, Tennessee police station where an auditor lawfully recorded from a public area near the parking lot only for officers to turn it into unnecessary trouble. Can you help me with? >> Uh, no. Thank you. >> Okay. Do you work here? >> Do you work here? >> Yes. >> Can I get your name and badge number? >> No. >> Why not? >> You work here. >> Huh? >> Do you work? >> How you doing? >> Good. You? >> Good. What's going on? >> Nothing. What's going on with you, sir? >> Nothing. What you doing over on the police department lot? Can I get your name and employee number? Badge number. >> I just ask what you're doing over there. >> Can I get your name and badge number? >> I'll give you my name and badge number right here. 7074. >> Thank you. >> So, what are you doing on the police department lot? Taking pictures, of course. >> Taking pictures. >> Why? >> I don't need a reason. >> Uh, you're in secured property. >> I didn't go in a restricted area. >> What's your name? >> Public property. >> What's your name? >> It's none of your business. >> What's your name? >> It's none of your business. >> Okay. Come over here. Put your cigarette down. >> Huh? Put your cigarette down. >> I hate to litter. >> Okay. You're already walking. >> You do not have my permission to touch me. Do >> you have anything on you that cut me, poke me, stick me, cause me any type of injury? >> I don't answer questions. >> Police claimed the woman was detained for walking in the roadway, but there was no sidewalk at all. When the state provides no sidewalk, how are people supposed to walk? This wasn't enforcement. It was a pretext to justify an unlawful stop. >> Thank you. >> How you doing, sir? >> I'm all right. Are you now? >> Yes, ma'am. Uh, we uh noticed that you came to the precinct and we just want to know. >> Yeah. No, >> I just explained I'm exercising my First Amendment right by taking pictures and video in public on public property of anything I can see from public view. >> Period. >> Okay. >> I don't need a reason and you can't criminalize it. >> Okay. I got one more question. Can I get your name? >> No, I have not committed a crime. >> It's not committing a crime. >> Right. Then I have no reason to identify to you. I have to identify myself to you. Correct. >> Right. Because you're a public servant and it's your police policy for Memphis Police Department. Your policy. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Right. I My policy is I do not. >> Where your policy? Can I see it? >> I'm telling it to you. I'm verbalizing. I have a policy. I do not ID. I have no reason to ID for exercising a constitutionally protected activity. Why would I give you ID for taking pictures? >> No, no, no. We got to make sure who you are. Mr. >> You don't need to make sure of anything. I haven't committed a crime. >> No, no, I haven't said you're committing crime. >> Right. Then you don't need my ID. Yes, ma'am. >> This is Tennessee, right? >> I don't owe you that. >> I'm I'm sorry. I'm not understanding what you're saying. >> By law, I do not have to give you my identification. I've not committed a crime. >> No, no, no. You was on the police, >> right? Free. >> Yeah, I can't I can be on the street. >> Nothing wrong with asking you your >> You can ask me anything you want, but I don't have to give it to you. >> I have to identify you. >> What's your name again? I'm not going to give you my identification. I have no reason to for taking pictures and video. Absolutely not. And I don't have to ID to go on the police property. I didn't commit a crime. >> Okay. You do filming now? >> No. As long as we're interacting together and I want to film. Yeah. To document what happens here. I don't trust you because you're law enforcement. I mean, I don't know why y'all don't get that by now. Okay. If you don't show the your ID, we going to have to detain you. >> I'm already detained according to him. >> And we detain you. We going to have to get your ID. >> No. In Tennessee, I I don't have to give you my ID unless I'm arrested for a crime. I've committed no crime. So, I'm not going to ID to you. >> Tennessee state law. >> We have to >> I don't You need to double check because I don't unless I'm arrested here. And it's not even a stop and ID state. Even if it was, I wouldn't have to unless you have reasonable, articulable suspicion that I have admitted or I'm about to commit a crime. You don't have any of that. Plus, it's not a stop ID state. I don't need to give you my ID. >> Police demanded the woman's name without citing any crime. Power first, legal justification later. In a rule of law system, the question is, what crime am I suspected of, not what's your name? Because reversing that order forces citizens to prove their innocence. ask you this. >> Okay, >> let's put the shoe on. Let's kind of switch your shoe a little bit. >> Yeah. >> Let's say uh I'm trying to think of a hypothetical situation which might help you understand why. >> Take your time. >> Let's say you're at your house. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I'm not at your house. >> I didn't say you're at my house. All right. Let's say we're at your house. You >> But it discredits it immediately. >> Just say you're at your house. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> And I'm walking down the road. So you have a young child. >> Yeah. >> 78 years old. >> Mhm. I'm taking pictures of your child all the way down the street. >> Does that make sense that you're that's your hypothetical? >> Oh, no. No. And then I come up and start taking pictures of your house, your address, number and stuff like that. Would that not make you feel a little bit uncomfortable? >> That's happened to me where people that do Map Quest in Google. I think nothing of it because it's public property. Yeah. I can go look up my house on the internet right now and look at the front door. >> Somebody potentially >> I watched it. What was I supposed to What was I supposed to do about it? And And I don't see how you can compare me taking pictures of You see this car? You don't own that car. The citizens own the car and the police station and all that property over there that I was walking on and taking pictures of. That has nothing to do with children. So, no, it's not a comparable hypothetical. >> Your reasoning. I'm going to tell you try to reason with somebody. You don't want to listen. I'm trying to put a situation that would make maybe you feel uncomfortable and maybe help you understand why police would come and, you know, talk to someone who's trying to do that. Take pictures of your house somewhere with your kids there. If I was a parent, which I'm not, but if I was, and someone was following my kid home and taking pictures and taking pictures of the house number, stuff, I'd feel pretty uncomfortable at least come out and check that person. >> That's a ridiculous hypothetical to compare to me taking pictures of police cars that the citizens own that we let you drive. >> You just don't get it. This may be the most flawed hypothetical I've ever heard from an officer. Leaping from photographing a police station to following a child home, a fundamentally misleading comparison. And it didn't stop there. >> Regardless of why you may think that there was threats or not, do you think that given the light of everything that's going on in society right now in the United States, do you think that there are threats police officers face from people maybe wanting to attack precincts or attack officers? maybe. >> And so you can understand why when we see somebody doing that on the lot taking pick cars and stuff like that, why police want to find out who a person is. We don't know if you're that that person or not. We don't know that. Just like after 9/11, we had people would pull up down by the old bridge and start taking pictures of the bridge, you know, just out of the blue, you know, it was crazy. all of a sudden they just be out there just be taking all these photos underneath it and everybody's mind is going crazy because they're worried about 9/11 explosion terrorist attack. Okay, they're going to blow up the bridge, you know. So, we go down there and we talk to those people and try and find out what they were doing. And most of the time was just innocent stuff. They were photographers or whatever. But, you know, we have a right to find out what people are doing because, you know, there are people safety and lives in jeopardy. >> Your paranoia and your emotions are not my problem. >> That's not paranoia. And with what's going on within society, do you think this is a great move to do for someone doing nothing wrong? Nothing wrong taking pictures of public property on public property. I was nice and friendly with everybody I came in contact with. I come down the street and y'all pursue me. Pursue me. Three cars pursue me. Came for me. Right. Why were Why did you come right here by myself? >> Why did you follow me here? Why were you here talking to me in the first place? I'm doing my job. >> What was the call for? >> A suspicious person taking pictures of cars and stuff at the police precinct lot. >> Right. Okay. It's a constitutional right and you want to criminalize it because of your paranoia and you are reinforcing why people have a problem with you. >> But listen to me. What was the probable cause for the stop? >> None. >> Walking in roadway sidewalk provider. >> [ __ ] I was right there. There's no sidewalk. There was no sidewalk. >> You were walking on the sidewalk down there. right down there where there was a sidewalk and that is such petty [ __ ] to try [ __ ] It's [ __ ] is what it is. >> But it is probably >> Well, you're earning the hate right here. All of you are earning the hate that y'all get. You wonder why it's this way. This is why it's this way. >> I answered your question. >> I answered yours. >> The police cited security, terrorism, and post 911 concerns to claim that photographing a police station was suspicious. In the end, officers who didn't understand the law backed down, not out of goodwill, but because their legal justification collapsed. Stopping someone or demanding identification without lawful grounds, reasonable suspicion, or probable cause, can be considered an unlawful stop or detention, violating the Fourth Amendment's protection against unreasonable searches and seizures. These incidents raise serious questions about civil rights violations, the potential for civil litigation, public records requests, FOIA, and internal police disciplinary accountability.