foreign [Music] to audit the audit where we sort out the who and what and the right and wrong of police interactions this episode covers identifications Reasonable Suspicion and obstruction and is brought To Us by al.com's Channel be sure to check out the description below and give them the credit that they deserve on May 22nd 2022 Pastor Michael Jennings of the vision of Abundant Life Church in Sylacauga Alabama was watering his out-of-town neighbors flowers in Childersburg Alabama when officer Chris Smith officer Jay Gable and Sergeant Jeremy Brooks of the Childersburg Police Department responded to a 9-1-1 call made by another neighbor Amber Roberson who reported that a quote younger black male and a gold SUV that she did not recognize were at the house while the owners were away officer Smith parked his vehicle and approached Pastor Jennings before either of the other officers arrived pretty good what you doing here man are they saying that is that your vehicle it's not the neighbors you live here no I don't live here okay uh they saying that this vehicle is not supposed to be here and you're not supposed to be here they called about it I don't know who called I'm supposed to be here I'm Pastor Jennings I live across the street you're Pastor Jenny yes I'm looking out for their house while they're gone okay uh why didn't they fly okay well that's cool now do you have like ID and I know man I'm not gonna be you know ID why not I ain't did nothing wrong well you look listen listen I'm not saying do nothing wrong there's a suspicious person I used to be a police officer in good water I'm coming with that good man don't do this to me there's a suspicious person in the yard and if you're not one to identify yourself I stop and identify State I live right across the street who calls y'all [Music] I'm not saying nothing about it you have no right to approach me if I ain't did nothing suspicious or nothing wrong told him I'm a pastor I Pastor I don't hear sir you want to lock me up lock me up I'm not sure y'all anything I don't care who called y'all block me up and see what happened I want you to hey man just come here and talk to us you're going to catch an instruction charge if you keep walking around you can do whatever you want do it do it we're just trying to talk to you man come here come Temple we got one that's not listening to look man let me see you let me see you finally just calm down no stop I like this okay we're just trying to talk to you and see I don't want to argue with you okay do what you got to do we're sorry [Applause] and uh Michigan he's got his master's degree he's an athletic director three police's profiler came in I was exposed off and do what I told you I'm a pastor okay look man who called y'all you will not listen I have a call on you right you have to identify yourself to me no I don't officer Gable screams at Pastor Jennings claiming that he must identify himself to the officers because they received a call on him in fact throughout the encounter the officers repeatedly claimed they have a right to identify any person involved in the 9-1-1 call however as we have discussed many times on ATA officers cannot arrest an individual for refusing to identify themselves unless they have the Reasonable Suspicion necessary to detain them and the state has enacted a stop and identified law that requires the individual to identify themselves under the circumstances under section 15-5-30 of the Alabama Code a police officer quote may stop any person abroad in a pub public place whom he reasonably suspects his committing has committed or is about to commit a felony or other public offense and may demand of him his name address and an explanation of his actions while Pastor Jennings was on private property when the officers approached him and demanded his identification that does not necessarily mean that he was not in a public place for the purposes of this Statute in the 1983 case of Schultz versus State the Court of Criminal Appeals of Alabama held that a vehicle was in a public place within the meaning of section 15-5-30 when it was in an open cotton field on private property three or four hundred yards from the highway because quote its headlights and its movement were clearly visible from the public roadway from which it was cited by the deputies applying this logic a court would likely conclude that Pastor Jennings wasn't a public place for the purposes of the Alabama stop and identify statute as he was much closer to the public Street and his actions would have been clearly visible to anyone using that roadway however the officers still would not be permitted to detain and identify Pastor Jennings Under This statute unless they had reasonable suspicion that he was committing had committed or was about to commit a felony or public offense we will discuss whether the officers had Reasonable Suspicion later in this episode but for now it's important to note that even if the officers had the required level of Suspicion to detain and identify Pastor Jennings the statute would only authorize them to demand his name his address and an explanation of his actions Pastor Jennings provided this information within the first few seconds of his encounter with officer Smith although he did not provide his first name and merely stated that he lived across the street instead of listing his exact address the officers did not ask him to provide this information instead they repeatedly demanded that he provide identification despite the fact that the statute clearly does not authorize them to do so I think it's going to be these guys quick we're gonna wait off all right well y'all sit with him Jim I'm gonna go over here because there's people over here to call hey you know what you know what it's 10 15. 10 15. 10 15. I ain't I ain't gonna sit there and have that dude no it ain't like nothing now all right I mean I don't know fake calls I mean I saw the gold SUV so now I saw him outside and all I did said hey man do you live here no it's not your car now it's the neighbors you know that gentleman you do yeah does he happen right there right there okay does he have permission here to be watering flowers he may because they are friends okay he went out of town today he may be watering their flowers okay be completely normal okay is that that's that's fine if he would have said hey I got this gave his identification because he's a suspicious person uh he says that's not his vehicle it's their vehicle okay yeah we're here because we're called here I don't know who called but somebody did yeah he lives right there and he would be watering their flowers this is probably my fault okay do you know who Rory malam is that's that's the person that owns a vehicle Roy miles I don't know the guy's name listen let me talk to you who was Roy model okay that's who that vehicle belongs to yeah that's who lives here that's right I call him Roy and call his wife Conan I've been dealing with him for seven years that I've been living here they are friends yeah he I got to keep their flowers watered to me man listen anytime the police come out and they said we want to identify you you have to identify yourself because there's a reasonable suspicion there's a reasonable man there's a vehicle there's a reasonable suspicion that you're here it's not a crime yeah if you if you would have said yeah here's my name here's everything we were like okay you didn't tell me your name I decided he asked me who I was you didn't give it to me when I first Pastor Jennings Pastor James that's not a name that's a pastor yeah I need your name y'all in this situation we're totally wrong officer Smith once again claims that Pastor Jennings was required to identify himself because they had Reasonable Suspicion but does not identify what crime they suspected him of committing as the Supreme Court explained in the 1989 case of United States versus sokolo quote the concept of reasonable suspicion is not readily or even usefully reduced to a neat set of legal rules in evaluating the validity of a stop such as this we must consider the totality of the circumstances the whole picture in the 2014 case of navarrete versus California the court considered the issue of reasonable suspicion based on tips received from 9-1-1 calls explaining that quote we have firmly rejected the argument that reasonable cause for an investigative stop can own only be based on the officer's personal observation rather than on information supplied by another person of course an anonymous tip alone seldom demonstrates the informant's basis of knowledge or veracity but under appropriate circumstances an anonymous tip can demonstrate sufficient indicia of reliability to provide Reasonable Suspicion to make an investigatory stop the court also clarified that 911 calls are not quote per se reliable and that quote even a reliable tip will justify an investigative stop Only If it creates reasonable suspicion that criminal activity may be afoot depending on the situation A 9-1-1 call reporting the presence of an unknown person from a neighbor even an anonymous one could create Reasonable Suspicion of various criminal activities under certain circumstances for instance section 13a-7-4 of the Alabama Code states that quote a person is guilty of Criminal Trespass in the third degree when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises and section 13A 7-1 explains that quote a person enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises when he is not licensed invited or privileged to do so and defines the term premises to include any building or real property similarly section 13a-11-32 of the Alabama Code states that quote a person commits the crime of criminal surveillance if he intentionally engages in surveillance while trespassing in a private place however when officer Smith approached Pastor Jennings his personal observations of a man watering flowers combined with Pastor jennings's clear explanation of what he was doing should have dissipated any reasonable suspicion that may have existed based on the 9-1-1 call although Reasonable Suspicion does not need to rule out entirely the possibility of innocent conduct a court would likely find that the officers did not have the reasonable suspicion that would be necessary to constitutionally detain Pastor Jennings as the innocent nature of his conduct was more than evident well listen you're writing the profile we're not racial profile [Applause] let's sit back in here what is your social you need to give me your Social Security that's all I'm gonna get you you're not gonna run no 27 to 28 on me and get me in the system for no reason what we gonna do with it uh we'll see the charge of I guess disorderly conduct the failure to be a police officer he refused to give any information I got he said he's not going to give me a social but he gave me his name in date of birth okay and she's saying the same thing she won't give her name because she got arrested I mean this could have been all aboard if he would have just well I told her that and every time I try to tell him you good man I appreciate this I appreciate that yeah because all he does is racial profiling he's suing that's all he would say you couldn't talk I didn't wasn't going to detain him until he he walked away started coming to the front yard saying he's coming to one of these plants and then he gets his phone out and he just keeps speeding walking away and I said okay fine come here what's the charger so just destruction obstruction I'll just do it just do a structure obstruction governmental operations you know we gotta have to know yeah after already placing Pastor Jennings under arrest the officers discuss what crime they intend to charge him with briefly considering a disorderly conduct charge before settling on obstruction of governmental operations under section 13a-11-7 of the Alabama Code an individual commits the crime of disorderly conduct if with quote intend to cause public inconvenience annoyance or alarm or recklessly creating a risk thereof they engage in fighting or in violent tumultuous or threatening behavior make unreasonable noise use abusive or obscene language or make an obscene gesture in a public place disturb any lawful assembly or meeting of persons without lawful Authority obstruct vehicular or pedestrian traffic or a transportation facility or congregate with others in a public place and refuse to comply with a lawful order of law enforcement to disperse clearly none of Pastor jennings's actions during the this encounter came remotely close to violating this statute and that is likely why the officers ultimately decided to charge him violating section 13 a-10-2 of the Alabama Code which states that quote a person commits the crime of obstructing governmental operations if by means of intimidation physical force or interference or by any other independently unlawful act he intentionally obstructs impairs or hinders the administration of law or other governmental function or intentionally prevents a public servant from performing a governmental function however as a U.S District Court in the Middle District of Alabama explained in the 2013 case of Klein Schnitz versus Ferris quote the public servant must be legally authorized to undertake the action in question in order for interference to constitute obstruction in other words this statute would not apply to Illegal action by a public servant in performing an unauthorized function this means that if a court reviewing this situation concluded that the officers did not have reasonable suspicion to detain Pastor Jennings for watering his neighbor's flowers then Pastor Jennings could not be convicted of obstruction for refusing to identify himself of course as we discussed earlier Pastor Jennings did not refuse to identify himself he refused to provide identification because the obstruction statute requires that the obstruction be committed by means of intimidation physical force or interference or by any other independently unlawful act and it was not unlawful for pastor Jennings to refuse to provide his identification in this situation a court would likely determine that he could not be convicted of obstruction for his actions even if the officers had Reasonable Suspicion if it's not listed just do the lowest one to 500 that way we won't be overcharging or anything like that it seems like a reasonable nice guy I don't understand okay so you so you can do this once okay so he's been identified himself [Music] did you identify yourself please but no I'm not identify myself you don't have to identify me listening walking away so okay we don't know what's going on gotcha if she does tell us it's a mistake yeah and all that stuff at this point he's already collected the charge once we place one of us we can't un arrest him does that make sense all we taught him was like if you hear the water pets that's okay just please identify yourself just your name and let us call the owner and he didn't want to do that until he caught the charger all right which is going to go to the chillersburg police department we're going to process our arrest report it's going to be one charge for uh construction of our investigation he'll go to the jail he can bond out immediately so it'd be like fifty dollars we're not investigating a crime we're investigating a call and we have a right to identify anybody involved walking away he has no we have no right and we have a call there but if he wants to fight in court that's fine is it okay if I talk to him you need to clear up immediately after this incident Pastor Jennings was taken to jail and charged with obstructing governmental operations however a few days later on June 2nd 2022 Childersburg police chief Richard B McClelland issued a statement announcing that he had requested that the charge be dropped in his statement Chief McClellan indicated that he reviewed the 911 footage and interviewed officer Smith officer Gable and Sergeant Brooks and that as a result of his investigation he recommended to the municipal judge of the city of Childersburg quote that the warrant be dismissed with prejudice and the judge has dismissed the aforementioned charge against Michael Jennings it should be noted that cheap McClellan resigned from his position on August 11 2022 a few months after his involvement in a single vehicle traffic accident where according to the crash report quote there was a strong odor of an alcoholic beverage inside the vehicle an investigation into the crash is ongoing and has been turned over to the office of Alabama attorney general Steve Marshall Pastor Jennings is represented by an attorney and plans to file a federal lawsuit in the Northern District of Alabama as of the date of writing this episode no lawsuit has been filed overall the Childersburg officers get an F for a resting Pastor Jennings when he had not committed a crime demanding that he provide identification when he was not legally required to do so and maintaining a hostile and aggressive demeanor for the duration of the interaction throughout the entire encounter the officers demonstrated fundamental misunderstandings of reasonable suspicion when they have the authority to identify an individual and the information that individuals are required to provide during an investigation the officers repeatedly claim that they have the authority to detain and identify an individual simply because they are investigating a call and told Pastor Jennings he was required to provide identification and his social security number when he was not obligated to give them either based on their comments it appears that the officers believe that receiving a 9-1-1 call about someone is the same thing as having adding Reasonable Suspicion to detain them but the relevant case law makes it abundantly clear that this expansive interpretation of the scope of police Authority is entirely inaccurate I strongly urge these officers to study and understand the Constitution they are required uphold and the limitations that it places on their Authority Pastor Jennings gets an A plus for maintaining a relatively calm demeanor throughout the interaction refusing to provide identification when the law did not require him to do so even under the threat of wrongful arrest and pursuing civil legal action even though the charge against him was dropped when officer Smith first approached him Pastor Jennings immediately provided his name and an explanation of what he was doing despite it being plainly apparent in an attempt to de-escalate the situation however when the officers refused to accept this explanation without seeing his identification Pastor Jennings took a stand to defend his rights and I commend him for continuing to do so by preparing to file lawsuit let us know if there is an interaction or legal topic you would like us to discuss in the comments below thank you for watching and don't forget to check out my second channel for even more police interaction content [Music]