welcome i know a lot of you enjoyed watching part one of the officer depositions in the sergeant versus bish case so this is part two if you haven't seen part one i'll put the link in the description you have to watch that first so this continues this is part two in the final bit of deposition for this particular officer and part three we'll get into the other officers the use of force that you you did engage in at this point the first 30 seconds of the video you didn't mention anything about that in your report no melvin sergeant was handcuffed at this time yes all right let's continue to watch the video where you can we're 32 seconds i'm going to play it a little longer there's no fish please you're rwanda that's where he kicked when we played again yeah playing from 27 seconds and we'll play it to about 53 seconds to get him under control i know when someone comes all right so you're saying you saw a kick yes all right you're saying you saw a kick somewhere in the 30-second range yes so now you're saying that melvin did try to kick you that appears so yes okay but he didn't kick you i don't remember it right there let me continue playing it and then i'll ask you some questions come on they got killed on 37th baby from the 30 second range to the 53 second range would you agree with me that shows additional uses of force by you against melvin surgeon from forcing him into the vehicle you told me yeah from the from forcing him into the vehicle and that was it from holding his head down and me getting out and using vocal commands all right did you use physical force on melvin sergeant at this time to find physical force all right let's play let's play it again for 30 seconds this time we won't stop it okay all right so watching that video it looks like your feet are outside the police cruiser and the upper half of your body is leaning in inside the police cruiser with melvin yes and it looks to me like your body movements are jerking in such a way as is there's some sort of activity going on in the rear of that police piece just me holding him back like this and as he's trying to jerk and force his way up and down just residual movement miss chavez is taking this video yes right she's talking to you as this is going on yes several times she says bish stop hitting him or something to that effect yes and you deny that you were hitting him yes i never hit him in the back of the car there no when plaintiff alleges that you struck him or you punched him in the rear of that police cruiser you deny that yes you it's your testimony that you were just holding them down yes other than holding them down did you do anything else physical with mr sergeant in the rear seat of the police cruiser no nothing he didn't strike him no you didn't punch him no and this is the time period where as we can see you were wearing those reinforced gloves padded gloves i wouldn't call them reinforced padded gloves okay if we keep watching the video from 53 seconds on let's go 53 seconds to a minute like that listen so from 53 seconds to a minute you approach the camera right yes and watching this video we can see you walk up with your black gloves yes and we can see that those black gloves have blood all over the knuckles yes of your right hand yes over the more of the ring looks like the ring knuckle you're right-handed yes would it be fair to say that that's your your punching arm if you were to punch somebody if i punch it goes with whichever one is would be more efficient all right so we can't see exactly what's happening inside the rear seat of the police cruiser but we can see that when you emerge and you come over to the camera you have blood all over your knuckles correct but you don't know whether or not that's melvin sergeant's blood i'm not 100 sure now all right so that's you talking to jerelina chavez yes so your explanation to her was quote when i tell him to put his hands on his head and he goes to grab his back i'm going to protect me he her or him yes what did you mean by he her i pointed around to there's there was a crowd pointed at everybody you didn't mention at that time any allegation of melvin trying to kick you in the chest from the rear seat of the cruiser right no isn't it true that the the use of force incident that we see in the first minute of this video that's in response to the earlier encounter where you say that melvin started to reach towards the small of his back where his gun was no that used force was done and over with but that's what you were talking about when you walked over to the camera i was explaining to her why he was under arrest you weren't explaining to her why you were engaging in a use of force against melvin sergeant the first use of force yes okay but she's filming she's filming you in the rear of the police cruiser and she's she's crying [ __ ] no [ __ ] no stop hitting him honestly at that point i didn't hear her my focus was on him and she can do whatever she wanted so you're saying you weren't upset at all about the fact that he had a gun on him earlier no so at what point i mean we saw on the video you closed the door yes and then you walk over and you talk to jolina chavez at what point throughout this did you pepper spray melvin sergeant after i go back towards the cruiser he starts kicking the door and that's where i go to the driver's side so the pepper spraying hadn't even occurred yet correct after this conversation that you had with jolina chavez how long after that was it that you pepper sprayed melvin top my head i'm not sure it wasn't long maybe 10 seconds if that and then after you pepper sprayed them you shut the door and left them in the rear seat yes did you call an ambulance for him no why not uh he wasn't injured he didn't complain of any injuries and no need for them okay well you knew that you would pepper spray them right yeah after we for protocol at the time if there's no major injuries on scene we would return to the office and we decontaminate them here well downstairs okay you could have done it at the scene though no why not he was under arrest and if i didn't have any equipment or tools to decontaminate him all right well that would require me to pull him out of the vehicle and put him and others back in harm's way that would make no sense all right well let's talk about the the transport okay what happened uh after while i was driving was on glenwood park road he continually he started cussing again uh making verbal threats uh started kicking the door it almost he almost popped it open with one of the kicks and that's whenever we stopped on glenwood park road right in front of some church i don't remember the church name and what'd you do i went out got out my seat went around the front of the vehicle went to the passenger rear callaway came up to the driver's side front and i secured his legs i was and told callaway as he's getting in if he doesn't comply we'll we'll put a hovel restraint on him and what'd you do callaway talked to him after while he was holding him down and he started to comply there's no video footage of this now at this point no was the idea to transport melvin somewhere where there was no video footage of what was happening no isn't it true that during the transport melvin was complaining roll down the window i can't breathe and he kept complaining to roll the window down but i never heard i can't breathe he's rolling he's asking to roll the window down because he had pepper spraying his eyes yes and i was driving with it and as well did you not have some sort of barrier in between you and he you do but anytime you pepper spray with anybody you get it as well it splashes back and plus it particles in the air it's not pleasant for anybody around did you roll your window down yes but you didn't roll his down his was down enough to where he could receive the brief relief from the air hitting his face it wasn't rolled down enough to where he could stick his whole body out at some point during the transport was plaintiff told stop acting like a little [ __ ] i never heard that you didn't say that no you didn't hear callaway say that no and you didn't see deputy callaway strike melvin sergeant at all no throughout this whole time period melvin was still handcuffed yes behind his back yes at no point throughout this time period did melvin attempt to flee no after you arrived at your your destination when you're transporting him at some point did you spray down melvin with a hose i did after we arrived here at the office we went straight into the garage i had him kneel down and i ran a garden hose over the back of his head allowing the water to drain from the top of his head towards the front of his eyes so you basically washed off his entire head no the top half where the pepper spray would have made contact with his face and eyes not only did you wipe off the get the pepper spray off of the hose but you also washed blood off his face i didn't notice any blood you didn't notice any blood melbourne sergeant wasn't provided any medical treatment at all other than being decontaminated from the pepper spray now he didn't complain no he didn't ask for any medical treatment no if he would have i would have called in fact he did ask for medical treatment and you told him he can wait till he gets to the southern regional jail no okay so if he had any injuries any lacerations any fractures he would deny that i didn't see any no did you did you evaluate melvin for any injuries i looked him over but i didn't see anything but it was more of a just glance over and i asked him if he was okay he said i'm good [ __ ] i'm good [ __ ] off his exact works when you pepper sprayed melvin do you believe that that was necessary yes you think you could have used any lesser amount of force that was the lesser amount i had i had no other tools okay well he was already handcuffed in the back of the police cruiser right yes all right so what were you trying to achieve uh compliance for him to stop trying to kick the door and break the door open to do who knows what so that's why you pepper spray yes because he was kicking the door attempting to kick the door open to do whatever to cause more harm or to run away i don't know i don't know what his goals was would you agree with me that striking an arrestee in any way for instance punching would be a use of force yes okay and isn't it true that under your your department at the time your department policies that any use of force that you engage in against an rsd must be documented yes must be documented by you yes you would agree with me that your your report in this case your documentation does not mention you striking melvin sargent in the rear of the police prison that didn't strike him in the river cruise you did testify earlier that you did engage in a use of force while melvin sergeant was in the rear of the police producer yes yeah but you didn't document that either documented that i forced him into the rear of the cruiser okay you didn't document any sort of physical violence there was no physical violence it was an escalation of i forced him to sit and you have no idea what may have caused any injuries to melbourne sergeant no but it wasn't you i don't know are you positive that the blood on your knuckles wasn't melvin's um don't know you don't know acknowledging that you're saying that you didn't use you didn't strike mr sergeant while he was in the rear of the police cruiser handcuffed would you agree with me that it wasn't necessary for you to strike him there was no use for a strike in the back of the cruiser so i didn't do it so you didn't strike melvin sergeant the rear of the police cruiser because it wasn't necessary to do so correct he was pinned against the seat and couldn't move and there was no reason so you would agree with me that had a police officer in those circumstances struck him or punch him in the face that would have been excessive very much yes you've had prior occasions of punching arrestees in the face before right yes so following this incident you never did actually talk to the 911 the 911 caller right and melvin sargent wasn't charged with anything that occurred prior to your arrival no and you never interviewed jolina chavez no i did not you never even asked melvin sergeant about what happened prior to your arrival did you no so when melvin says or alleges that during his arrest processing that he was asking for medical treatment you deny that yes i never heard him ask for anything other than the occasional threat about how how long before you left for the transport did you pepper spray well right after he was spray i believe it was pretty immediate okay so before the transport you opened one of the doors sprayed them in the eyes and then and then shut the door yeah and you did that to gain compliance you said yes because he was kicking the inside of the cruiser kicking the door and attempting to break it open i mean he posed no safety threat to you did he from kicking the door yes right just because somebody's handcuffed doesn't mean they're not dangerous they can still pose a threat okay he couldn't get out that door right if he would have kicked it open he could have so that's why you pepper sprayed him the danger of him potentially kicking out of the door kicking the door and causing who knows what did you pepper spray him to cause him pain to gain compliance that's what it's meant for so you pepper sprayed him to cause him pain not necessarily in your own self-defense defense from the public from the area where i was at who had more of an opportunity to go through the other door i was in a safer location and at that time how many police officers were present there was three certified three police officers were present and one uncertified police officer yes she was still armed right yes she was still pretty frank and melvin sargent on the other hand was handcuffed right he was just you had already shut him in the back of the police cruiser yes so that was part two and the final bit of deposition for this particular officer basically what happens after this point after i stop questioning him is his lawyer then gets to ask him questions and sort of try to clean up testimony a lot of times that's basically pretty leading questions where the where the the lawyer is sort of picking every problem area and sort of asking a leading question in part three we'll get into some of the other officers and they're asked some of the same questions and you'll see whether or not they answer the same now remember these are depositions this is not trial so there's a difference in questioning for deposition which is more of a fact-finding sort of thing and you don't necessarily follow the rules of evidence and there's a big difference for cross-examination at trial