Okay. Hey replay gang gang, giving them a chance to come in on the live. No, that's not what I want. Here we go. Okay. All right, so this is we're picking up on day three. We were already on day three. This is the forensic What would they call What did I call her? Was it psychologist or pathologist? I forgot. But um this is where we stopped at. This is the defense's witness um testifying about what she observed, what somebody would act like, and all this other stuff as far as Latasha Daniels went. And so just really going to let the expert speak, but just so you know, I do talk on these, but I um I mean it's conversational. That's kind of why we're here. The link is in the description box if you just want to watch it with pure just no interruptions. I did not take offense. So we're going to go ahead and get started, pick back up with this uh I can't remember she did. I can't remember my own thumbnail. Okay, but yeah, we're going to start with her. All right. Her name is Amanda Bitting. >> later and not be able to remember it then. >> Yes. >> So because she could not remember well that immediate event, you were not able to make that assessment. >> That's correct. >> But a traumatic event can affect your ability to recall. >> That's right. >> That's all I have, Your Honor. >> Cross examination. Thank you, Dr. P? >> Yes. >> I'm sorry, I didn't get your name. >> Uh my name is Kevin McGalvin. I'm the prosecutor for the case. And I'll have a few questions for you. Um Are you with treating therapist for Ms. Daniels? >> No. >> So you're you're here as an expert witness hired by the court or somebody to come and testify as to what your findings were. >> Yes, I met with Ms. Daniels just the one time for the purpose of this evaluation. >> So, your relationship with her began after this event, after the homicide. >> Yes, well well after. >> Your um Is it fair to state then that your your opinion is based at least on large part from either what she self-reported to you or retrospective accounts of what happened. >> Yes, that's fair. >> How many times have you testified as an expert? >> Roughly 15 times. >> How many times for the defendant? >> Uh I don't have the exact number. More often for defense than prosecution. >> You um I think testified you diagnosed the defendant with major depressive disorder. >> That's correct. >> Where does the criteria for that come from? >> Uh the criteria for that and any other mental disorder comes from something called the DSM. It's kind of the manual for mental health professionals that >> And that's that would be the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, is that correct? >> That's right. >> You found that she does not meet the criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder. >> That's right. >> Does the um DSM or even your diagnosis state that a person suffering from depression is incapable of forming an intent to kill? >> No. >> Okay. There are millions of people who suffer from depression. >> I don't know the exact number, but there are many people. It's a very common mental health disorder. >> The vast majority of them never commit a violent act. Do you agree with that? >> Yes. >> Would you agree that depression itself is not the equivalent of a psychotic break? >> That's right. >> It is not a condition that renders a person legally incapable of a thought plan. >> It's not one that commonly does. It can, but it would be unusual. >> Unusual for depression to render a person incapable of a thought plan? >> That's right. >> A person that's depressed can work, pay bills, go on with life as a general rule. Would you agree with that? >> I can't answer that with a with a yes or no because to be diagnosed with a mental disorder, it has to impair your functioning. And so, many times people with depression, that's the functioning that it impairs. It impairs their ability to go to work or to um pay their bills or to eat, sleep. >> You testified that she did not meet the criteria for insanity. >> That's correct. >> And so by that your testimony is that she understood the wrongfulness of her act. >> I did not find evidence that would suggest that she was unable to understand the wrongfulness of her act. >> So you're aware, I think you testified that she purchased the firearm before driving to the victim's house. >> That's correct. >> Purchasing a firearm would require planning. Would you agree with that? >> Yes. >> All right. It in fact requires that she go through like several steps. You got to have an ID. You got to There's all kind of things you have to do to purchase a firearm. >> That's my understanding, yes. >> And she was able to do all that. >> Yes, I assume so. >> You're aware that she drove over 2 hours after purchasing the firearms to the victim's residence, a residence that she had never been to before. >> I'm aware that she drove from her home to Memphis. Um I think the information I had indicates that she drove to um like a cigar lounge or something first. Before going to the victim's location. >> Yes. >> Communicated a substantial way after purchasing the firearm. >> Yes. >> And eventually ended up at the victim's house. >> Correct. >> Would you agree that that requires concentration, navigation, purposeful action? >> Yes. >> Did the information you had indicate that when she got to the residence that Mr. Perry was not there? >> That's correct. >> Did it also indicate that she had a conversation with Mrs. Perry while they were waiting for the minute to show up? >> That's correct. >> That appeared to be a normal conversation that didn't raise alarms in Mrs. Perry necessarily and >> I don't recall anything in discovery that that conversation raised any concerns for Mrs. Perry. >> So, those are not random, confused, or disorganized actions in my mind. Would you disagree with that? >> I do not disagree with that. >> Would you agree they were sequential and goal-oriented? >> Yes. >> I do want to interject here just in case someone hasn't been watching this whole thing, but her defense appears to lean heavily on the fact that she has been uh suicidal before. Like when she uh when her marriage didn't work out, she was thinking about taking herself out from that. And then again, I believe they're trying to establish that she didn't necessarily want to take the pastor {slash} lover out. She was going to use it on herself. But, she was in Arkansas while he was in Tennessee at this time. She bought the gun from I think in Arkansas, drove to Tennessee to take out the pastor because well, the theories are that he was ending it with her and she was really in love with him, but I think the defense is trying to say he did something in that apartment when she showed up to uh the pastor and the his wife's apartment that made her feel uh and I don't to use my gun to shoot you cuz I got to protect myself. But, she didn't own a gun yet. She owns one. They're trying to kind of hint to self-deletion, but then it's like you drove across state to his apartment. He's not at the apartment. The wife is who the wife had known them cuz they used to live in Arkansas as well at a previous church and that she went to. That's how she met this pastor in the first place. And so, she's sitting there talking to her about mundane things waiting for the pastor to arrive. So, I don't know. Like I I'm just saying for me, I don't buy what the defense is trying to sell. She might have also been trying to possibly wanting to take herself out at some point, but I just feel like that day buying the the gun the same day you end up shooting him, I just think it was for him the whole time. >> In Tennessee, are you aware that premeditation doesn't really even have a time period? That it can happen like in a in a matter of seconds and all that's required is reflection and judgment before the act is done. >> I'm aware it does not require a specific time period. The phrasing in the statute is always a little confusing to me. It's something like sufficiently free from passion and excitement to be able to exercise reflection and judgment, something like that. >> So, there's no specific time period. So, you you you there's no we got to give this person a chance to to cool off. There's nothing like that under Tennessee law, right? It's just reflection and judgment. >> That's my understanding. And the reflection and judgment, again, the statute says something like it has to be sufficiently free from passion and excitement. >> Does the fact that she realized that she needed a weapon and the fact that she went to purchase the weapon indicate judgment to you? >> Does that it? I think yes. She made some judgments to purchase a weapon and have it with her. >> Does the ability to drive from Little Rock, Sherwood, Arkansas to Memphis and then to Collierville to a specific location show judgment and the ability to carry out a plan to you? >> Those actions suggest she was able to plan at the time. >> Is it fair to say that a person suffering from depression can still make a reasoned decision to do things like that? So, depression in itself would not keep a person from doing those things. From making those types of reasoned decisions. >> Again, I'm like the typical psychologist answer is that it depends. Um and I do think it depends. There are some people who can be depressed and it not affects their judgment or reasoning at all and then other people where again that could be something and research suggests that depression absolutely does affect someone's ability to make um decisions. >> But we've just said or you just agreed with me that she made a judgment and she took part in There was a process of planning that went along with what her actions were that day. >> I agree that her actions suggest she was able to plan and make judgments. >> She admitted to you that she was heartbroken, upset, angry, that the defendant I mean so I'm sorry that Mr. Perry wanted to end the relationship with her. >> She described me feeling heartbroken and um I forget the other words he used. I'm sorry. >> Frustrated? >> I don't recall her her mentioning anger. Um it was a lot of internalizing like I'm heartbroken, I'm not enough, you know, I'm a failure. I don't remember her talking about being angry. >> Did she indicate to you she was frustrated that he would not tell his wife about the relationship they were having? >> Yes, I believe she did tell me she was frustrated about that. >> Does frustration mean anger? >> Absolutely, yes. >> Did she talk to you about being under financial stress? At least in part because of money that she'd spent on going on trips with Mr. Perry. >> Yes. >> Did those feelings cause her to feel anger? Frustration? Regret? >> Certainly regret. Again, I don't remember her talking much about feeling angry at the time. >> So those those are powerful emotions, right? Even if it was just frustration over the fact he wouldn't tell his wife, anger over the fact he wouldn't tell his wife, heartbreak over the fact that he wanted to end the relationship and regret over the fact that she had spent money and was now in financial distress. Those are emotions, right? >> Yes. >> Strong, powerful emotions. Would you agree with that? >> They certainly can be. Yeah, they can be intense emotions. >> And those emotions are independent of your diagnosis of major depressive disorder. Would you agree with that? >> The only emotion part of a diagnosis of major depression disorder is kind of the low mood or you know, sadness is kind of the emotional part of depression and hopelessness. >> Is that a yes? They're independent of that. >> Well, I'm not sure. Emotions are not independent of it. So, I think heartbroken you could put under sadness and sadness is part of depression. Am I answering your question? >> I think so. >> Okay. >> I I don't think she's like although she's the defense's witness, I don't think she's like I need to say things to make sure it favors the defense. I just think she honestly is using her profession wisely with most times I'm seeing when more than not professionals when they come up here, they got their credentials and they're doing their thing, they don't do absolutes like oh, this could never happen or this always happens or this is exactly what it is. It's like it is is a very much it depends type thing with them and so I feel like she's not being deceptive or trying to do anything. It's just she has to answer uh she has to answer according to her profession which is let me think about it. Let me let me think about how this is categorized and I can tell you what maybe most often is, but yeah, I don't think she's like taking the defense or or helping even more in the prosecution or vice versa. I just think she's just trying to answer in her appropriately from her profession and her practice. >> You testified a little bit about and I don't want to go into details about it, but prior suicidal ideologies at least. >> Correct. >> Can you tell them Tell the jury a little bit about There's a difference between a suicide attempt and a suicidal ideology, is that correct? >> That's correct. >> What what's the difference? >> The term psychologists often use is suicidal ideation. It just means thinking about suicide. It could even mean considering suicide. And of course, an attempt is when you actually try to kill yourself. >> And you talked about she had past suicidal ideation. >> Yes. >> And then you also talked about it as a note that she wrote to some family members on this day that you saw. >> That's correct. >> Individuals suffering from suicidal ideation, do they often focus on their own suffering? >> Yes. >> I mean, that's kind of the reason, right? >> Yes. >> Do people often have those thoughts and express those thoughts at stressful times like when a relationship that they don't want to end is ending? >> My most honest answer I can give you is that it depends. There are some people that when they have suicidal ideation, um sometimes that immediately leads to like a suicide attempt. There's more impulsivity there. And then for other people, it's more of what you're talking about where really it's like a stressor comes up, it brings up these thoughts of wanting to die or just kind of wanting to end it all. Um and then that kind of wave goes away. >> And can it also be a way to try to control the outcome or control the other person? Like I I know what this relationship to end and if I make this known, maybe I can control that in some way. >> In my experience, that's often a stereotype. Um and in reality, a lot of the time the people that I work with, they say those things because they really want to die. Often times there's ambiguity. When somebody wants to die, they want to die, then there's that part of them that hopes that somebody will give them a reason to live. But in my experience, if someone um brings up suicide in the context of like relationship ending, it's very rarely for the purpose of like trying to like manipulate the other person. >> So the ones that aren't really suicidal, but they threaten it, are the ones that use it for manipulation, but then the ones that are actually suicidal don't they they say in suicide training don't challenge them, don't tell them I don't think you're serious because then they most likely go out and do it. Um but I'm like my my problem is how you know which one? Because definitely I've seen especially in toxic relationships, people threaten like I'll kill myself if you leave. But they're not actually suicidal, but they're going to use those words and say that so they can manipulate the person to stay. And then you have the ones that actually mean it, which is a dangerous tightrope to watch if you're the person that is being told to. >> And it's more of like a a true kind of distress. >> Are are suicide suicidal thoughts generally inwardly directed or am I guess that kind of goes along is that kind of inwardly directed or is it often times outwardly directed? >> Can you ask me I think I know what you're asking but can you ask me a different >> So if someone is actually thinking about committing suicide is that something that they generally do that's inside them that they direct toward them and not outwardly toward somebody else. >> Yes. So if somebody's having suicidal ideation they are wanting to harm themselves. It's it's directed inward. >> So if someone were want if Ms. Daniels was wanting to harm herself why would she drive to Mr. Perry's house and shoot him and his wife? >> Objection, lack of personal knowledge. That's that's going beyond the scope of the testimony. >> Excuse the expert. I don't know why why would she >> Okay. I think they went mute. That's not me. So sidebar. Okay. He made a good point. It's a good question. So you trying to hurt yourself, not the person you came and shot five times. All right. So I'm going to It's all right. They took a long time. We're skipping ahead. Trying to go too far. >> what was going on in terms of the person's mental state you're talking about. >> But you testify in legal proceedings often, right? And you deal with the legal system often. Is there anything about a murder-suicide plot where I'm going to kill somebody and then kill myself that would diminish the mental state, the intent, the premeditation that would be required to commit premeditated murder. >> Can you ask me that in a different way? >> I don't know how to ask that in a different way. >> Can you ask me again? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> So, if if an individual were planning to kill someone and then kill themselves, is there anything about that, their actions toward the person that they were going to kill, that would make them legally not responsible, legally not uh that the legal mental state required to form the intent to kill somebody and the planning and premeditation that would be required to do that? >> It is possible that someone could engage in a homicide-suicide and not have the mental state required for for the crime. >> It's possible, but it's also possible that they could. Am I correct? >> That's right. >> Just the fact that you're suicidal does not mean that you don't have the mental state or the ability, the judgment and the ability to premeditate and plan a crime. >> Simply being suicidal does not mean that you would not be able to to form the intent. >> You talked about childhood abuse. Does that, the fact that someone went through some trauma or some or bad childhood, does that, anything about that prevent someone from forming intent to kill somebody and planning to do the kill? Just in and of itself. >> So, this is the prosecutor questioning the defense's witness. If you just came in, she's a forensic psychologist and um he's breaking down everything I suspected the defense was saying without explicitly saying it yet. So, with him he's trying to he's trying to make sure she's saying, "Usually if someone suicidal it's more about hurting themselves, not going out and outwardly hurting other people." Then you have he's they cuz they talk a lot about LaTasha Daniels' childhood on how it could have affected her mental state to get her to the point that she shot this pastor. And he's basically saying, "We're not ruling out intent to kill somebody just because someone had a traumatic childhood, right?" Like basically, you can't take away that they could have the mental state that they know exactly what they're doing, they plan to do it, and they executed that plan. Because definitely, the way the defense has been wording their opening statement, the way that they cross-examined uh the prosecutor's witnesses, and the way that they have been pointing some things towards other witnesses is she was so hurt, she was devastated, um she's been suicidal before that this was all meant to harm herself, and um when she got to the apartment of the pastor and his wife, I feel like they've been insinuating that again, the pastor became a threat to her. So, then she used the gun that was meant for her on him, but it was for to make so he wouldn't hurt her. I feel like cuz they also asked about the defense asked about did the pastor have a gun in the house? Where was the gun placed? Stuff like that. So, the prosecution's breaking down each of these on you trying to take responsibility away from the defendant on why she still could have been mentally present to still want to kill him whether she has ever thought about killing herself or not, and if she had a traumatic childhood or not. Also, either either this woman was very insecure or she's now trying to repaint the picture her defense is repainting the picture for her because they also were saying in the in defense's opening statement, they were like, she was so in love with Perry Brothers, I think is his name. She was like, you know, she trusted him cuz he was a leader of the the church. She came to came to the church because she was already having issues with the marriage that was ending. I think she had an 8-year marriage or something like that. So, basically she's vulnerable, she's vulnerable, she's vulnerable. I I have to believe she at least was also insecure because that man apparently never showed her affection cuz from the time that they would go out of town to have their affair, it was usually connected to a church event and per her defense the defendant had to pay her own way every time. I think sometimes she also paid a little bit of his way. Then the defense said she she the defense said that the defendant said the only way he wanted to see her when he was in a hotel room was she needed to be naked for exactly the purpose he wanted her to serve. There just didn't seem to be any affection. Then he had them in this app where he would always talk about ethical non-monogamy. And he had at least two other women in that chat cuz we saw them on day one or two. We saw the women actually sitting there listening to him say his nonsense. And he did in there make it seem like his wife was okay with him being in a type of polyamorous relationship as long as they weren't local, blah blah blah. So, um with the way he was hiding things I'm like, I don't think he ever told her, but I think that's what he was spewing to his three people including the defendant and the other two women. But some do believe and I can't put it past that she didn't know that uh she knew he was cheating on her because she did the wife testified that at one point he tried to get her to read a book about um ethical non-monogamy. She said she couldn't remember the title, but she does remember him trying to get her to read a book and she was like, I wasn't interested in the book, I didn't read it and all this other stuff. So, I can understand how people were like, well, you did you suspect something since he gave you that type of book with that type of subject and stuff like that. So, but yeah, that's that's where we are so far. That's where I'm thinking so far, I should say. >> Again, these are questions. This is a question that I probably can't answer truthfully in a yes or no because it's more complicated than that. It depends. There are a lot of things that trauma can cause in terms of mental health problems that could absolutely impact someone's ability to to form an intent. >> But it doesn't necessarily. So every person that was abused as a child can't just go out and kill somebody and claim I don't have the requisite mental intent to be committed to that crime. >> I suppose they could claim it. I don't know that it would be supported. >> And the fact that someone was in failed relationships, were married more than once, does that or went through a divorce, does that um in and of itself mean that that person is not responsible for their criminal acts? >> Again, the not responsible part is a legal decision. What I can say as a psychological expert is that would not mean the person necessarily would be unable to form an intent for a crime. >> And And I think you make a good point there. You're not a legal expert, correct? >> That's correct. >> Uh you've offered an opinion based upon a clinical diagnosis. >> In this evaluation, my opinions were essentially clinical diagnoses, kind of what her mental health was around the time. >> You're not offering an opinion as to whether she met the legal definition of premeditation required for first-degree murder to occur. >> That's correct. I'm not offering an opinion about that. >> And you were not able to find criteria that she met the definition for insanity. >> That's correct. >> You were not able to find the criteria that she met that she met the legal criteria for diminished capacity. >> That's something I did not offer an opinion about. >> In fact, you say in your report that you're unable to offer an opinion regarding her mental state at the time of the offense. >> That's correct. >> So, you can't say that she didn't act intentionally. >> That's correct. >> And you can't say that she didn't premeditate this homicide. >> That's correct. I did not offer opinions about either one of those things. >> That's all. >> Redirect. >> Thank you, Your Honor. >> But depending on what >> All right, before we go to redirect, a perfect little part little thing little break. Thank you, my Joy My Peace. We hit the like goal. What she said and I appreciated my Joy My Peace. Hit the like goal, so she did gift a uh trendy tribe membership. And I've been putting some stuff back there, okay? I got these back there, so congratulations to Lee Clay Clay's. Um if you see this or if you end up just popping up or you see some alerts you never saw before, congratulations on your membership. But thank you, my Joy My Peace. >> Let's touch on a couple things that Mr. McCollum was speaking about, okay? >> Okay. >> Um first, I wanted to queue in on something that you said to him during direct, talking about suicidal individuals. And you had said someone can truly want to die but still hope that someone else could give them a reason to live. Do you remember that? >> Yes. >> Can you kind of elaborate on that for me? >> Yes. In my experience uh in my clinical work, I often work with people that have kind of chronic suicidal ideation. And it's very common for people to consider suicide when they become hopeless and feel like they don't know any other way out and still want a way out. So, it's again, there's ambiguity there a lot of time. They want to die and I think they're open to being helped if someone can help them. >> Did Ms. Daniels endorse that kind of mentality to you about this incident? >> Yes. Clinically speaking, is someone who has attempted suicide more likely to attempt suicide again? >> Yes. >> Uh Now, people who commit suicide or attempt to commit suicide have to take actions to do that, right? >> That's right. >> So, you can have sequential and goal-oriented actions moving towards a suicide. >> That's correct. >> Uh you could procure a weapon or other means by which to actually affect the death, right? >> That's right. >> And that means you could go buy a gun to kill yourself. >> That's right. >> You can choose a place to commit suicide. >> Yes. >> You can drive to that place to commit suicide. >> So, is the fence saying that she wanted to delete herself in front of the pastor just so he remember it? But somehow the pastor is the one that ended up getting shot five times and the wife got shot once. >> Yes. >> You can plan out what you want to say to your family in a suicide note. >> Yes. >> Are all of those plans that you're making? >> Yes, that is all planful behavior. >> Is that the result of reasoned judgment when you're dealing with a suicidal person? >> I think that's a controversial answer. People who want to commit suicide have reasons for wanting to commit suicide. At the same time, like I said, often those people get there because they feel like there's no other option and research relates that to depression which kind of lowers our ability to think through our options and make decisions like we would when we're not depressed. >> The The ability to make sound and reason judgments, right? >> I would agree with that. I think it depends on how we define sound and reason. >> And I'm going to have to agree with Professor Demetrius Joe. She said he wouldn't have cared. I be it's a crazy action for someone to do in front of somebody, but he all overall, he wouldn't have cared. He literally had a public semi-public roster because it was on like this weird chat app that not many people I've ever heard of use. So, yeah. I I feel like he already showed just by putting her in that group chat, you're one of, you're not the one. You know what I mean? So, I Yeah, she just still would have been replaceable. He would have had a lot of explaining to do. Maybe. Maybe we took a little break, but it was in him. He was going to keep doing what he was doing. >> Um severe depression that can result in those suicidal ideations, suicide attempts, or accomplished suicides. Severe depression does it necessarily affect your basic ability to make and execute plans. >> It does not necessarily affect that ability. >> Does it affect the quality of your decision-making? >> Yes, I think that's fair. >> Does severe depression affect your decision-making process? >> Yes. Depression kind of slows down everything, including your ability to think. Um >> So, severe depression can actually affect all of your thought processes. >> It can. >> Can mental health issues affect your judgment and reflection abilities? >> Yes. >> What is the difference between suicidality and suicidal ideations and homicidal ideations? >> Uh suicidal ideations are thoughts about wanting to kill yourself. Homicidal ideations are thoughts about wanting to kill someone else. >> Does someone who has suicidal ideations necessarily have homicidal ideations? >> No. >> Does someone who has homicidal ideations necessarily have suicidal ideations? >> No. >> Those two things can exist separately. >> That's correct. >> And often times do. >> That's correct. >> Uh When you evaluated Ms. Daniels, did you find her to have a history of suicidal ideations? >> Yes. >> I'm going to say this one cuz we this trial has already happened anyway, but here's the thing. You do have a dead person and the dead person is not the one that claims suicidal ideations. So that that I think is the sticking point on this one. She didn't get him done and then turn it on herself. She went I'mma say they I'mma say not catatonic, but she just went what looked like to be in shock or numb when the police showed up. She didn't point the gun at the police. Oh, they said she pointed at her head at one point. I think they did say that. The gun did not go off in her hand for herself. Is all I'm saying. I'm not saying that that doesn't mean she still didn't think about it, but only one person was dead after that night. >> And aside from this instant conduct, did you see her to have a history of homicidal ideations? >> No. >> When you're dealing with severe depression and and mental health issues, can those issues affect the way an individual responds to emotional triggers? >> Yes. >> How? >> If you have if you're depressed for example, if you have other mental health problems going on, the way I think about it is that it makes you vulnerable. It kind of raises your um raises your what do I to say? It's easier, right? It's easier to react in an extreme way if your stress or your mental health is not doing well. It takes less um to get a more kind of extreme reaction. >> So, can it affect your your reason ability in the face of that trigger? >> Yes. >> Can it affect your ability to make decisions? >> Yes. >> Your ability to make well-reasoned decisions? >> Yes. >> Uh Now, when towards the end of when you were talking with Mr. McElvin after lunch, um you were saying suicide on its own is not necessarily indicative of things. Is suicidality usually indicative of a larger mental health issue? >> It can be. Uh certainly if it's um something that comes up during uh times when there are other mental health symptoms There are some people that suicide comes up for them like once in their life because they're really stressed out or there's a lot of things going on in their life. But in general, if someone is suicidal, um it certainly raises the suspicion that there is a mental health problem going on. >> And there's I Oh my gosh, I was going to say I if I was on that jury, I'm sorry, but I could not be convinced that she did not have the intent of killing that pastor. It may have been other intent she also had, but you could not for me take off the table that she had the intent to kill that pastor. Like you're not going to tell me otherwise. I don't think she had the intent to kill his wife, which she didn't. She shot her, but that's cuz the wife was using her body to protect the pastor. So, I don't think she had the intent to kill the wife. But I I I you cannot tell me she didn't have the intent to kill that pastor. You're in Arkansas. You drive to Tennessee to go to his apartment and wait for him. And again, the only one that ends up dead with multiple shot with multiple uh What is it? Gunshot wounds is one person. And then another one kind of caught technically a stray because she was just trying to get another shot off to the pastor not necessarily uh get the wife or whatever. Um So you For me, if I was a juror, you cannot tell me she didn't have some intent to do this to him. >> The whole spectrum of suicidalness, right? You have some people who could have a terminal degenerative disease that are choosing conscientiously to end their lives versus someone in a mental health crisis who takes their life their own lives. >> That's right. There's a whole spectrum. >> Yes. Uh but oftentimes wanting to consider that the suicidal ideations are indicative of an underlying mental health issue. >> Yes. >> The suicidal ideation itself, is that its own mental health issue or is it a symptom? >> I think both. Um we would treat even if someone didn't meet like a diagnosis for a mental health problem, the suicidal ideation would still be something that could be treated and addressed. >> And it should be treated and addressed, right? That's a concerning symptom. Uh now I want to talk to you about when Mr. McCalpin was discussing uh your prior testimony career, okay? Uh you indicated that you have testified more for the defense. >> That's correct. >> Now, when you and I were speaking earlier, you talked about this a not guilty by reason of insanity defense is extremely rare. >> Yes. >> Uh how many evaluations do you think you have done? >> Evaluations specifically to >> forensic >> evaluations. >> Uh at this point in my career well over 800. >> Okay. How many times have you found someone to meet the threshold of not guilty by reason of insanity? >> Um less than >> Me, sir. Okay. I'll be louder. You're saying you couldn't hear me. Okay. All right. Of the 800 evaluations, how many times have you found individuals to be not guilty by reason of insanity? >> Less than 2% of those evaluations. >> It's an extremely high standard. >> Yes, it's difficult to meet. >> And Ms. Daniels did not meet that standard, right? >> It's my opinion she would not meet that standard. >> Okay. Uh in your practice as a forensic psychologist, this is what you do. You said you've done over 800 evaluations, right? >> That's right. >> Uh often times when you end up at a trial, it's because someone was found not guilty by reason of insanity in your opinion, right? >> If I end up at trial, it typically isn't for not guilty by reason of insanity. There's only been one instance in my career where I've testified at a at a trial for that purpose. >> Was that for the defense or for the state? >> For the state. >> Okay. Uh of the 800 evaluations, are most of those court appointed? >> Yes. >> Uh is that usually state oriented? I don't I Are you usually hired separately by the defense? >> Most of my work, I'm appointed by the court. So, I'm not hired by defense or prosecution. Um when I am hired privately, well, when I'm hired by one party or the other, it is typically that I'm hired by the defense. >> The state kind of already has you in access through Vanderbilt, right? >> Through the court-ordered process, yes. >> Now, I want to talk to you about uh when Mr. McElvaney was discussing your basis of information, okay? >> Okay. >> Uh you only met with Ms. Daniels one time. >> That's right. >> Is that normal for your evaluations to only meet with the person one time? >> It's not uncommon, certainly. I think for these evaluations, it's typically one to two meetings. >> And is that the same whether you're testifying for the defense or for the state? >> Yes. >> In either instance, do you blindly rely on self-reporting? >> No, again, the idea is that there needs to be other data that would support what the defendant is telling me. >> And did you look for that other data here? >> Yes. >> And you found uh Tavoris Perry's statement. >> Correct. >> Did you believe it corroborated what Ms. Daniels told you? >> Yes. >> You read police reports. >> Yes. >> Did you believe that corroborated what Ms. Daniels told you? >> In a sense, she wasn't able to remember a lot of what was actually in police reports, meaning like what was mostly in police reports is what they observed when they got to the scene, and she's saying that she doesn't remember a lot of what happened um during the incident and immediately after. So, in that sense, no. Uh but the things that she did remember, those were consistent with >> Did the police reports corroborate mental health concerns for you? >> The police reports confirmed that she was pointing a gun at her head and was uh then, shortly after arrest, indicating that she wanted to kill herself. >> Uh the receipts that you saw corroborated the timeline that she gave you. >> That's right. >> The suicide note corroborated those suicidal ideations she talked to you about. >> That's right. >> The um the video of Rodas Perry talking about seeing her at the cigar lounge corroborated her timeline of events for you. >> That's right. >> Did you find Ms. Daniels to be a woman who suffers from mental illness? >> Yes. >> Did you find that she is a woman who has suffered from mental illness for a long time? >> I know I'm being a piggy here. Prolonged, I can say that she was endorsing depressive symptoms for at least two years before the offense happened. >> Uh And even all the way back to the end of her first marriage, right? With that first suicide attempt. >> That's right. >> So, that takes us back to like a 10-year period of time, right? >> That's true. >> Uh What was the overriding emotion endorsed by Ms. Daniels when you met with her? >> The overriding emotion she endorsed around the time of the offense was sadness, hopelessness. >> When you talked about defensive avoidance, um what do you mean by defensive? >> Defensive in that context is talking about how our brain naturally tries to defend us against traumatic things. Um so, avoiding thoughts of a scary memory is a type of like mental defense. >> Is that different than someone behaving defensively? Like that almost uh kind of reaction? >> Yes. >> Uh And in speaking with Ms. Daniels, uh she talked to you about the fact that she was always expected to put on a happy face, right? >> That's right. >> No matter what was going on inside of her. >> That's right. >> And that had been her reality since she was a child. >> Yes. >> I want to talk to you now about um something you and Mr. McAlpin discussed regarding impulsivity. Can you talk to me a little bit more about what impulsivity is. >> But, impulsivity is when somebody acts quickly, in the heat of a moment. Um, sometimes when you hear impulsivity, people say it's like acting without thinking. But, typically it's acting really quickly, like unexpectedly, in the heat of in the heat of a moment. >> And how does impulsivity tie to mental health issues? >> There are mental health issues that include impulsivity, and it's not necessarily uh the symptom of a few, but not necessarily common across all mental health disorders. >> Is it associated with depressive disorders? >> Not typically. >> Okay. What was the contact of the impulsivity when you were speaking with Mr. McAlpin? >> I don't remember. >> Okay. Uh Did you find any impulsivity issues with Ms. Daniels in her recent >> Can Can you rephrase that? >> It was It that was a poorly worded question. I apologize. Did you uh Does impulsivity affect decision-making? >> If somebody is like an impulsive person, typically that means that they make poor decisions, and again, react without a whole lot of thought about consequences. >> Can impulsivity be associated with suicidal attempts or suicidal ideations? >> Yes. Um, the research that's out there about completed suicides, people that you know, attempt and they end up dying. Um, typically that is related to impulsivity. Most of the time, suicidal acts are impulsive. >> I'm going to shift gears for just a a minute. In assessing Ms. Daniels, did Latasha endorse feelings of remorse about what happened? >> Yes. >> Significant remorse? >> Yes. >> Uh now, last thing I want to talk to you about. As a psychologist, you meet with people and discuss the most intimate parts of their lives, right? >> More so in my clinical work than my forensic work, but yes. >> Uh you find out the most personal details of people. >> Yes. >> Is that a relationship that has to be based on trust? >> I would say in the clinical sense, yes. Um in a forensic evaluation, it's difficult to build trust in a matter of a few hours. Um and it's not a priority in forensic evaluations for there to be trust there. But absolutely in a clinical sense, yes, trust is very important. >> Because in that context, the person with whom you are dealing is extraordinarily vulnerable. >> Yes. >> And they have completely opened themselves up to you. >> Yes. As far as I know. >> That's all I have. >> Any recross? >> No, ma'am. >> No state ma'am. Ma'am. >> All right, jurors, we can take a short break. So we'll reconvene a short recess. I'm going to show you this excuse this time and remember we still have a right to discuss the case. >> All right, we're moving ahead in time. Let's see. They had their break. Oh. Oh, this is when the defendant takes the stand. This is one of the few times that the defendant of a special of a murder trial takes the stand. So here we go. We now have Latasha Daniels taking the stand. So, here y'all go. >> Would you please state your full name? >> Latasha Daniels. L A T O S H I A D A N I E L S >> I just want to say that I've always heard it's usually a horrible idea to put the defendant on the stand. >> Now, Ms. Daniels, what you are doing right now is called a momentary, okay? >> Okay. >> And what that means is that we are talking about your rights and your decisions, okay? >> Okay. >> You have an absolute right not to testify. Do you understand that? >> Yes. >> That's called the right against self-incrimination. Do you understand that? >> Yes. >> You have the right not to give proof in the case against you. Have we discussed that right? >> Yes, we have. >> Do you understand that if you decided to remain silent, the judge would tell the jury that they cannot hold that against you? >> Yes. >> Do you understand that you also have an absolute right to testify? >> Yes. >> And that this is one of the few decisions that is yours and yours alone, right? >> Yes. >> Mr. Horn and I cannot make this decision for you. Do you understand that? >> I do understand. >> Have you spoken with myself and Mr. Horn though about this decision? >> I have. >> Have you been present throughout all of the trial? >> I have. >> Have you been able to hear and observe all of the witnesses? >> I have. >> Have you been able to see all of the exhibits? >> I have. >> Are you aware not only of the proof that's come forward at trial, but also of all of the discovery in your case? >> I I'm aware about all of it. >> Have you discussed that discovery and the evidence with both me and Mr. Horn? >> I have. >> Um have you discussed the charges against you? >> I have. >> Uh, you understand you're charged with first-degree murder. >> Yes. >> Have you and I discussed the elements of first-degree murder? >> Yes. >> Do you understand the state has to prove each of those elements beyond a reasonable doubt? >> Yes. >> Um, do you understand all of the elements of criminal attempt first-degree murder? >> Yes. >> Do you understand that the state has to prove all of those elements beyond a reasonable doubt? >> Yes. >> Do you understand the elements required for employing a firearm during a felony? >> Yes. >> Uh, do you understand the state has to prove all of those beyond a reasonable doubt? >> Yes. >> Uh, do you understand the elements and understand the burden of proof? >> Yes. >> Um, and even this was a superseding indictment, right? >> Yes. >> And you and I had discussed previously the issues in the old indictment. >> Correct. >> And we discussed how the new indictment kind of changed some things, right? >> Yes. >> Uh, you've had several discussions throughout this entire process with your whole defense team, right? >> Yes. >> Uh, we have prepared for trial together. >> We have. >> Um, we prepared specifically regarding your testimony. >> Yes. >> After everything that you've heard, everything that we've discussed, and everything that you've considered, have you made a decision on whether or not you want to testify? >> I have. >> What is that decision? >> I choose to testify. >> Thank you. I didn't miss anything. I thought the only thing that it is normally about you making a decision to testify. >> With this pause, I need to read Simone's comment again. Hold on. This is what Simone, I I I I remember now that it was mentioned she was a therapist. Didn't I pick up on the fact that she was an anger management therapist? Simone said her defense is definitely pulling out all the stops. I just can't get past the fact that she was an anger management therapist. Now I can get past it. I didn't realize what type of therapist she was, Simone. >> Say anything you wish before the jury comes in. >> No. >> All right. Bring in the jury in. Before we take a break to discuss instructions. >> Yes. Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing >> Do you swear before Almighty God to tell the truth? >> Yes, sir. >> All right. You may have a seat. >> Can you please state and spell your name? >> Latasha, L A T O S H I A. Daniels, D A N I E L S. >> Before we get into all of the allegations here, have you ever testified in a situation like this before? >> No. >> Is this a comfortable situation? >> Not at all. >> Uh please let me know if you need anything, okay? I want to talk to you about first your childhood. Your childhood, okay? >> Okay. >> Can you tell me about your parents? >> Um my parents my father was um retired military and a minister um and my mom she was my mother. >> Um was your biological father the man you called dad? >> No. Um I was raised by my um stepfather um and so I called him father and my biological father called papa. >> Now your um your your dad you lived with, right? Um what did he do for a living? >> Um uh once he retired from the military he was from what from my knowledge he worked at MM Cohn's and he retired from there and then he began to work for the Salvation Army and where he ran the community work community center where the youth would go um and so once he retired from there he was just home sitting on the porch and buying land and doing gardens. >> Um at any point did he become an ordained minister? >> He did. Um I was in elementary so but I do recall him becoming an ordained minister. >> Uh what would you consider his reputation to have been within your community? >> Um he was highly respected in our community. Um everyone knew of my father and respected him well. >> Uh and did they know that you were your father's daughter? >> Oh yes to the point to where like if anybody seen my sisters and I they would say that's Mr. Briggs' daughters. Like they they knew um that who he who we were. >> Did that mean something in that community to be his daughter? >> Most definitely. Um and we and we carried ourselves accordingly. >> Now how were things at home outside of public? >> Things at home wasn't as what they seemed in public. My father did physically abuse my mother and I was the one who would at nights wake up and beg him to stop. >> Did you have any siblings in the home? >> I did. I had two little sisters. >> Did the three of you hear as your dad would beat your mom? >> I'm not sure if they did, but I did and I often would wake up and and ask him to stop and even sometimes start pulling them apart. >> When you >> Okay, I'm just giving my observations because I don't know what's going to happen. Fair warning, she contextualizes that she's not going to give spoilers, but hold on to your seat. So, I'm saying this without knowing what's going to come next. So, please give me grace as I just say what I'm thinking. The first thing I'm thinking is when her defense attorney said, "Did your siblings know that your dad was beating your mom?" And she said, "I don't know if they know, but I saw it." I know it's not the end all be all just because I know people that were children of abusive relationships, but usually what I've seen is the the siblings do discuss it. It's difficult for them so much they still discussing it as an adult don't get over it all the way. So, that is a little bit odd to me that her other siblings were not aware at all and she also never brought it up to a sibling. That's it's odd. That's all I'm going to say. But, just give me grace cuz I don't know what she's going to keep saying next. >> Were in public did you let that side of your life show? >> Oh, not at all. I went to school and I did the things that I was supposed to do, participated in sports and and just carried myself look I guess, you know, in a normal fashion. >> Is that what was expected of you? >> Yes, we didn't say or tell what was going on inside of the home. >> Now, I want to talk to you about >> But who's the we? You don't even know if your siblings knew. So, just you didn't discuss what went on at home cuz the other ones didn't even know about it? I'mma stop. >> I'mma stop. Okay. >> of late in your teens, okay? >> Mhm. >> Uh when you were 17 you got pregnant. >> I did. >> What happened when you got pregnant? >> Um I had um I was I I shared with my dad well, I don't know if I shared with him or not, but I was told once he found out that I needed to get married. >> Did you get married? >> I did. >> And was that to Rodney? >> Yes. >> How do you describe your relationship with Rodney? >> In the beginning it was it was good. We both had graduated from high school and so we was building a life together. Um we moved from our hometown to Little Rock, Arkansas and purchased a home and we were doing well. Um Rodney decided to go to police academy and during that time I helped him. I made sure he studied. I did everything that I could to ensure that he made it through police academy and was successful. Once he um probably months after joining the force, things began to shift. Um he would ask me to do certain things that I was like out of the norm, but I was in college and so I he would then say, "Well, you're probably going to want somebody from college." And I didn't understand it cuz like I loved Rodney. I wanted our family. Um but even though we didn't argue, we grew distant and I never understood why until I found out that um he was having an affair. >> Did you actually catch him in the act? >> Um not in the beginning, but during um he he decided that we was going to separate and one day while I was at while I was at school, he had packed up all my stuff, put it in a U-Haul and drove it to my mom's house. >> How long were you married to him? >> For 4 years. >> Did you eventually get divorced? >> We did. >> Okay. Now, after that divorce, did you attempt suicide? >> I actually did it right before we actually found out we lost the divorce. >> Did you commit suicide because because of the divorce? I'm sorry, attempt to commit suicide because of the divorce. >> Yes, I just didn't feel like I was I felt like a failure. That was the one thing I don't I felt like a failure. I didn't think that I was enough. And so I didn't feel like I had anything to offer. >> But you did go on to get an education, right? >> I did. >> And you didn't let your divorce or your teen pregnancy, you didn't let those things stop you from trying to get better in your life, right? >> Right, I wanted to push forward. I wanted to be successful and I mean I had to be, so I kept going. >> And you eventually became a licensed clinical social worker. >> I did. >> Now, I want to talk to you about your second marriage, okay? >> Mhm. >> Uh that was to Brian. >> Yes. >> Now, how long were you married to Brian? >> I was married to Brian for 8 years. >> Uh was that relationship a positive? >> No. >> Did you feel loved in that relationship? >> No. >> Did you feel wanted in that relationship? >> Not at all. >> Um would you describe Brian as being emotionally distant? >> He very much was, so. >> And emotionally neglectful? >> Yes. >> Did you try to get Brian to go into marriage counseling? >> Yes, we had a discussion and he didn't want to do it. >> Did you determine that you would go get your own counseling? >> Yes. >> Did you go see a psychologist? >> I did not. >> Why? >> Um because of the field that I was in, I just wanted One, I wanted spiritual guidance, but also because of me being in private practice, I was afraid of being that individual that was getting the water cooler talk, per se. Um just in my field, it's I didn't have anyone that I felt like I could really go to and trust because I was very closed off. I didn't share I didn't share my business with anybody. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry. As Simone pointed out, she herself is a therapist. She's acknowledging she's a therapist. She didn't want to share her business, but she did want counseling, so she went the spiritual route. But it's like you're discounting the profession you're in. You think that there's nobody you can find to talk to that won't give you I I'm not sure what she means when she says water cooler talk. I mean, I have an idea, but I don't want to act as if I know for sure what she's saying when she says it. I don't understand that. That's when you you know, look outside of your area and maybe get counsel, but you tell me you just discounted your whole profession. Nobody in your profession that existed could help, but you do believe you have the profession where if you have clients, you can help them? All right. >> So So, going through that and being in private practice, I didn't want to take what was my income cuz I needed to be able to take care of of the things in my life. So, I did not, but I did know that spiritually I wanted some direction. >> Why did you feel like you needed spiritual direction? >> Just from my first Jesus. From my first marriage, but I went to my dad and told him that I was getting a divorce. The one thing he said to me that just resonated with me was that he said he would have gotten an attorney and taking away my children, but it was all just like I just felt like it was kind of like a punishment from God. And so, I just didn't want to be in another failed marriage. I just did it. >> Did your dad consider it your failure that you got divorced? >> Yes. >> Did you seek out spiritual counseling? >> I did. >> Now, I want to talk to you about St. Mark's, okay? >> Okay. >> water? >> Yes. >> May I approach you? >> Yes. >> Thank you. What is St. Mark's? >> It's the church that I attended in Little Rock, Arkansas. >> Is it a big church or a small church? >> It's a big church. >> Um Did you have any particular role within the church? >> Um yes, um I participated in evangelism, but eventually became a life group leader. >> How were you selected to become a life group leader? >> Um I one of the one Sunday was talking to uh just in shaking hands with some of the pastors. Um Pastor um Perry, Curtis Perry, had asked me. He was like, "Are you thinking about being a life group member?" And at that time, I was like, "I'll consider it." And then eventually, I did go ahead and sign up to become a life group leader. >> And this was prior to you reaching out for that spiritual counseling, right? >> Correct. >> How many members go to St. Mark's? >> Um at the time, approximately 6,000. >> How many people were selected to be life group leaders? >> In our first set um of leadership training, it may have been approximately 60 to 80 of us. >> Okay. >> This is where I'm going to have to go. I I I The defense brought this up before, and they're trying this angle again. Yes, there may have been 6,000 members at the church. It was not that these What do they call them? Life light leaders or whatever were so elite that only 60 to 80 made it. It's 60 to 80 of y'all that probably presented interest and put yourselves in front of who made the decision to become one, but they keep trying to do the numbers as if 6,000 people wanted this position. No. I say maybe okay, 100 wanted it, and 60 to 80 got it. Stop trying to present this as you're singled out to become this because you just caught the attention of whoever. This Okay. Predatory wise, a preacher will tell you God showed me you should be this. But I'm telling you first they have to kind of like you've already been in their face for something or you know there's some there's something building familiarly wise. But they didn't compete with 6,000 people. Like it's they keep saying this number like it's that and that does bother me. Maybe out of a hundred, 60 to 80 y'all became these leaders and I'm I'm standing by that. Like stop saying it like y'all were chosen out of 6,000 people. >> And were you then subdivided into groups? >> Yes, we were divided into cohorts. >> How many people were in each cohort? >> Um about eight to ten. >> How many people were in your cohort? >> It was about eight of us. >> Who was the supervisor the supervising pastor for your cohort? >> Rhodus was our um our leader. >> Did Would you consider y'alls group to have been a close group? >> We were very close. >> Did you become close with Pastor Perry through that group? >> I did. >> Is that why you reached out to him for spiritual counseling? >> Yes, I trusted him. >> Now I want to talk to you about that counseling, okay? When you approached Rhoduss Perry about counseling, did you explain why you wanted counseling? >> I did. >> What did you tell him? >> I told him that my husband and I were having some marital issues and I just needed to figure out spiritually which direction I I just needed some spiritual guidance on on direction. >> Did Pastor Perry agree to meet with you? >> He did. >> Where did y'all meet? >> We met in my office. >> Why? >> I didn't feel comfortable with being in the church and I wanted to be in a safe space cuz this was against something that I was not fully embracing that I had to deal with. >> That don't make no sense to me. You turned down people in your own profession to seek help because you wanted specifically spiritual guidance. I'm not downing spiritual guidance, fine. But then when you finally want to meet personally with the person to give you spiritual guidance, you don't want to do it in the Lord's house, you want to go you want to have it in your office, the therapy office, but not where Okay. I'm sorry. I I'mma go I might go back and forth with something like, "Okay, now I understand that. I feel bad." But I'm telling you now, these are things that keep sticking out to me. >> And I wanted to be in a space where I knew that I can be able to be vulnerable. >> During the first counseling session, what did you discuss? >> Uh everything that was going on within my marriage. >> How long was the first counseling session? >> It was about about 2 hours. >> Uh were you emotional during that process? >> Yes. >> Were you open? >> I was. >> Did you tell him very personal private things? >> I did. >> How long Well, at the end of that session, did you determine at that time that you were going to ask for a second session? >> Yes. >> How long until you had a second session? >> Um it was approximately 2 to 3 weeks before the next one. >> Did it feel good to get all of that off of your chest? >> Yes. >> Did you reach out to um Broderick Perry for a second counseling session? >> I did. >> Did he say that he would come do a second counseling session? >> He did. >> When you had your second counseling session, did you ask him about any odd behavior from the first session? >> I did. >> What was that? >> Um in the first session, from the moment he walked through the door, he had his hands in his coat pocket, his jacket pocket, and he sat there the entire time during the session with his hands in his pocket. So, I found that to be a little strange, but I didn't say anything in the first session, so I asked him the sex during the sex session cuz he came in and he didn't have his hands in his pocket and I was like, "What was that with you having your hands in your pockets?" And um at that time he told me it was because he was trying to maintain his professionalism. >> Wasn't that the first time that you had any indication >> Y'all. I know it happens. I do. I know it happens. To me at the beginning you still have an out because there's been no feelings developed yet on both sides. Janetta, this is me. Girl, what? What girl? Girl, like come on, man. Like first of all, I just think someone's going to have a quirk if I see you with your hands in your pocket the whole time. I'm not going to ask you why you have your hands in your pocket. As long as it didn't look like you was touching yourself or something while you had your hands in your pocket. I don't have a question about it. I'm just going to be like, "Oh, they have a quirk." Then that's his answer to you. And you keep going, "All right. All right." They don't even know each other that well yet. Okay. >> indication that he might be interested in you? >> That was the first time. >> Did you proceed to start with the second counseling session? >> We did. >> What happened after you started the counseling session? >> As I was talking and sharing, um Broaddus reached over and grabbed I had a two-arm chair and he pulled me toward him and began to passionately kiss me and from there in that session we did have sex for the first time. >> Were you proud of that encounter? >> In hindsight, no, but at that time he was giving me everything that I had been missing for a long time. >> Did you know that he was married? >> I did. >> Did you know his wife? >> I had at that time I had her at church but didn't know of her. >> You got to know her better later? >> Yes. >> How did you feel about the fact that Broaddus was married? >> At that time, honestly, I did not think about it. I knew that we both were married and I was engaged in what he was giving me. >> If somebody is at immediately telling me that they were trying to be professional around me and they've only They only met me basically in private for the second time and haven't even started the second session yet. We're at the beginning cuz she said she asked the question in the beginning. I'm going to think you have slept with 50 more women. Like I'm just going to automatically think like, oh, this is just a thing you do. I'm just the next one coming up. Like I do acknowledge I think she is a very insecure person. And there are ways, even if it's unhealthy, insecure people find ways to feel better about themselves. I'm being so hard on her because she she killed that man. That's why I'm being so hard. I'm actually like if this was just a somebody sitting down and I'm watching a show about how this all came about, I don't have too much It's still wrong, but I don't have too much. It's because this man ended up dead and you tell All right, girl. All right. >> Had you had any attention like that in a long time? >> No, I hadn't. In years. >> emotional attention? >> Not in years. >> Physical attention? >> Um not like that. No. >> Uh After after your counseling sessions, did you end up getting divorced? >> Um that was in February and my I did end up getting divorced in December of that year. >> That's when it was finalized? >> Yes. >> Uh and did Pastor Perry encourage you to get divorced? >> We talked about it and there were times whenever we would be on trips, he would make mention of, "Oh, we can't do that until you get a divorce, or we can't do this until you get a divorce." >> Now, I want to talk to you about your relationship with Broaddus Perry, okay? >> Okay. >> After y'all had sex, did Broaddus give you any particular instructions? >> Yes. Um he immediately told me to download a um app for us to be able to communicate. Um that app was called Confide. >> What Tell the jury what the Confide app did. >> Um the Confide app, it's um whenever you would send a message, and when you read that message, it would disappear. You couldn't screenshot it or anything like that. It would immediately disappear once you took your finger off the screen. >> Did Broaddus teach you how to use that app? >> Um he the as we continued the app um it was probably maybe a week or two later, he found out that um if you had like other people had your phone number in your phone, and they had that app, then they could see you on it. So, he had me to change my name on it, and also change the way that I attached it to my account. So, I went from from having my phone number to coming up with a email address. So, I made a new email address to be able to attach it that nobody else had. >> And he taught you what all you needed to do for that app to do that. >> Correct. >> So, that it could not be traceable back to you. >> Correct. >> Uh and he did that all very quickly. >> Yes. >> Uh did he have or was it almost a rule, was it a rule, that you had to use that app to talk to him? >> Most definitely. Um that was our main form of communication. As the relationship went on, if he wanted to use a different form of communication like a email, or maybe um even direct messaging, he would then tell me, "Go to this Go to this platform, or go to that one, but it was not if I was to reach out to him without him reaching out to me first, I had to use the Confide app. >> Um, did he set any other rules for your relationship? >> Yes. Um, as far as it came to trips that he wanted me to go on with him, I was the one who had to pay my way as far as airfare or travel and then he would, you know, he's his his words would I would he would then take care of the rest meaning that I would have somewhere to stay. Um, when in when I was in the hotel rooms, I was to stay um, naked. I couldn't have on any clothes. I had to um, and the only way I would have clothes on is if like, you know, we were getting ready to go out, but other than that when in the hotel room, I had to be naked. Um, I couldn't if something was to have happened to him as far as medically, he did not want me to call 911. I would have to call um, who we we reference him as the professor, but it was Pastor Pointer. I would have to call >> Yeah, Pastor Pointer was a dog, too. Um, where did this feel like love so much that then you get so passionate about him that they break this type of relationship off and you like, I'm going to I'm going to get a gun and I'm going to drive across state and I'm going to kill you. Because this doesn't feel like something that most could get attached to. And then she has training on coping. That's what's crazy because she's a therapist. You actually have more tools than the average person has to recognize some things before they happen. Oh, yeah, no, no, Janetta, yeah, cuz that's what her defense said, too, in the opening statement. She can only be in the hotel room naked. That's the only way he wanted to see her. And if this man's about to die that at some point I guess he told her he loved her. If he's about to die, don't call 911, call Pointer. I I just don't understand how it got this far to the point that you love him so much you wanted to kill him cuz you couldn't have him anymore. This sounds like the most worst dusty relationship ever. That's what >> on him in order to get him emergency attention. He He said verbatim lots of time, "Do not call 911." >> Did he add any rules towards the end of your relationship? >> At the end of the relationship, he wanted me to say yes, sir and no, sir to him. >> Now, I want to kind of break those down individually, okay? >> Okay. >> Uh you were required to use the Confide app. >> Yes. >> Uh I want to talk to you about the travel, okay? What kind of trips did Broaddus want you to come on? >> Um the very first one was to Vegas. Um he had some uh convention or something that he was at, and so that was the first one. Um I was to He had invited me to go to Cuba with him that year, but um he ended up right at the last minute changing it saying that Tabitha wanted to go with him, so she went with him, and he was like, "Well, since you're not going to Cuba, go ahead and sign up to go to Israel for the church group trip." So, I signed up to go to Israel and paid my way for that. Um we went I traveled with him to Savannah whenever he would go with uh Pastor Bonner um >> So, when he's when there's some trips that were for the pastors? >> Yes. >> And then other trips that were for the church group members? >> The The only church group that we uh trip we went on was to Israel. The rest of them would be if he was um doing something on his own, I guess, speaking engagement-wise, or if he was following Pastor Bonner. >> And then were there also personal trips? >> And then we had personal trips. >> If Broaddus told you that he wanted you to go on that trip, was it expected that you would be on that trip? >> I was on that trip. >> Uh Now, I want to talk to you about the hotel room rule, okay? What would happen when Broaddus would walk in and you were wearing clothing in a hotel room? >> Um once I did it and just I I don't know if I was cold or what, but I when he was like "Why are you still Why do you still have on clothes?" And when and that happened, he withdrew affection from me. Like he he was very cold, didn't want to be intimate um until after I um got undressed, but even then it was then like a punishment for he I had to wait for him to decide that he was going to then give affection. >> I don't think she was necessarily in love with him, but I do think she probably was pissed off that I humiliated myself so much for you and that still wasn't a and you you're breaking it off with me, although I did all this stuff for you. So, you're not going to do me like that and that's why she got him because I just can't believe at any point she thought this was actual love. Now, she she also may not know what love look like because the way the first husband left, the way the second husband was checking out, the way her dad was with her mom, not great examples. I go back to the fact that she does have training though. That's the part I can't get over. Also, it was mentioned like in passing to me, but did her first husband keep the kids cuz she said she had a teen pregnancy, I think. There was something mentioned about the kids and the husband. I don't know, did she ever have the kids still living with her? Did she ever get custody, partial custody? What what happened with the kids because that also gives me like a "Why didn't you have access to your kids? At least like, you know, 50/50 or something like that. What's going on with that?" Now Now, maybe she did have the kids and they just didn't go back over that part, but the last they left off was he had the kid or kids. >> Now I want to talk to you about Pastor Pointer, okay? >> Okay. >> You called him the professor? >> Yes. >> Um what was his position within St. Mark's? >> He was a the lead pastor of St. Mark. >> Did he know about your relationship with Broaddus? >> Yes, we um hung out together a lot. >> Uh do you know is that why Pastor Pointer was supposed to be his medical emergency contact? >> Correct. >> Now I want to talk to you about the beginning of your relationship with Broaddus, okay? >> Mhm. >> Uh how would you describe y'all's relationship at the beginning? >> Well, it would start off weird to me, but I'll see what she says. Before she starts, My Joy My Peace, thank you for gifting a second membership. I appreciate it. It went to Mindful Zen Meditation. So congratulations. If you start seeing pop-up notifications for members only, that's because of My Joy My Peace. So congratulations. All right, we'll keep going. At the beginning, it was I'm going to have to say amazing. I felt beautiful. He showed me so much attention. We did all kind of things together. It was I mean like even we gelled intellectually. It was just It was It was a great relationship. >> Everything that you didn't have before? >> Everything I didn't have before. Even to the fact I'd show up in my office and and he had me a dozen of roses sent to me. Um it was just like everything that I I wanted, everything that I even shared with him that I didn't have, he was giving it to me. >> Did you also give him things? >> I did. >> What kind of things did Broaddus like? >> Um as the relationship progressed, he got into cigars. And that was a a big thing for him to the point to where um he had someone to draw him up a logo and then I selected the name so he became the smoking savant and so the more expensive the cigar the better for him then that it went from cigars to bourbon and he had to have the best of the best of the bourbons. >> Did you buy him the best of the best of the bourbons? >> Yes I did. >> Did you buy him the best of the biggest best of cigars? >> I did. >> Uh Did you buy him other things? >> Uh he wanted this Tumi briefcase for work I think it was like $400 I got him that he wanted he was working out and so he needed more workout clothes and so I purchased him like $400 worth of gear and Nike gear. Um There was a time when he wanted to redo his closet and get some things organized and I bought all the organization things to make sure that whatever he needed I did it so that he could be good. >> Did he also expect you to do that? >> It got to the point to where it did become an expectation. >> At the beginning of your relationship at some point did Tabitha go to Florida? >> Um Yes in 2017 it was around I think October. Um Broderick said that he had sent Tabitha back to Florida and that they were separated. He said He said that he just needed he he was feeling this urge of He had this thing of saying that he was always wanting to be single he never knew what it meant to be a single man and so in >> Did that not give you a clue that that you were not going to be the only one and you would be interchangeable with people? I also want to say this I've said it in the day one day two I believe but if you're just seeing me, you might not see me that I've said this. He was a POS as well. Like, please believe I do not feel really sympathy for him. I don't know the man. But, the stuff they let us see on his recordings and the way he was manipulative, he's a he is he's not he was a horrible human being as well. I just I just want to make sure I say that cuz I'm not I'm listening to her testimony, so I have more to say because she's literally testifying, but I ain't like that man from what I heard about him either. He he was trash, okay? He was trash in my opinion. >> That instance, he was sending her back so he could explore that to some degree. >> Did he indicate to you that they were separated? >> Yes. >> How long was she in Florida? >> Um at least after Christmas. >> So, over a month? >> Yes. Two months? Yes. >> Uh So, and during that period of time, were you staying with him a lot? >> Yes, I stayed probably about three or four nights with him during that time. And we also went um out of the country. >> Now, I want to talk to you about when y'all would travel together, kind of what you would I'm sorry, not when you traveled. The things that y'all would do together. >> Okay. >> Travel was one of them, right? >> Yes. >> Um and did you both get interested in bourbon? >> I did start eventually um tasting them. He would always ask me to taste and try to figure out as he the notes or the you know, the different contents of them, but it wasn't something that um I just enjoyed. >> Uh what about the cigars? >> Um again, I did begin to uh smoke certain cigars. He picked out one that was better for me than the others that was too strong. >> Did you go with him to cigar lounges? >> Yes. Every everywhere we traveled, we we would find cigar lounges. >> Did you actually pay his dues to cigar clubs? >> Um the first uh I paid two sets of dues. The first set of dues was at um Dave's and sons and those weren't that much and then the second one was at a club called 18 1836. >> Were those expensive? >> They were $125. >> A month? >> Yes. >> Did he ask you to pay that? >> No. >> You just did to make him happy? >> Yes. >> Did you engage in any physical activities together? >> We ran together. Um We eventually began cycling. Uh He He got upset with me because I did not purchase his bike. I was like, I can't afford your $2,500 bike and mine and that did cause him to be upset, but he eventually got his bike and I got mine and we began We joined a cycling club together. Um we also exercise together. >> Did you pay the cycling club dues as well? I'm trying to figure out what part looks like love cuz as soon as apparently he got her roses, he expected her to buy something for him that was way more costly than roses. He probably invited her to the cigar stuff and the bourbon stuff so she would cover the dues for those things and buy those things. He got the nerve to be uh smelling notes and stuff. Shut up. Shut up. Not her in that way. He I can't mm-mm. I don't know. I don't know how people don't catch like, okay, now this is the second I'm out. I'm this is the second time. No. >> We would go swimming. Um So we did those things. >> Around those kind of activities, did you have any particular rules that you had to follow? >> Now, if we were at the cigar lounge and we was not hanging out with a certain group, he would have me to call a certain individual to invite her to come so that it looked like it was more of a church thing than it was just he he and I hanging out. Um and it that was just kind of the case even with the running. It was going to always be somebody from the church even though they didn't know they were a third party. It was the way of being able us for us to still be together but it not look like it was just us together. It would always >> Are you sure or did he close y'all's hotel room door and then go visit the third wheel? I I wouldn't trust anything at this point. >> It must be someone from the church. >> And who made that rule to have somebody else always there? >> That was him. >> I want to talk to you now about ethical non-monogamy, okay? >> Yes. >> Uh did Broaddus talk to you about ethical non-monogamy? >> Yes. >> Was this a lifestyle that he was interested in? >> Yes. >> Can you tell the jury what Broaddus told you about ethical non-monogamy? What is it? >> Um it is where individuals are able to have multiple relationships but everyone in the relationship must consent. >> Did Broaddus tell you that he had talked to Tabitha about ethical non-monogamy? >> He did. >> Did he tell you that Tabitha had said she was comfortable with it but he just hadn't told her about you yet? >> He said that um she had given him permission to be open on his side of the marriage. >> So she was not allowed to be open on her side. >> Correct. >> Uh but he told you that she had given him permission to go outside. >> Yes. >> But he had not told her about you to your knowledge. >> No, not to my knowledge. >> Did Broaddus ever give you a book to read? >> The Ethical [ __ ] is the book that um he wanted me to read so that I could have a more foundation and knowledge of this lifestyle that he was wanting to be in. >> And I think that's the book he tried to get his wife to read which is why I can understand when people say she probably knew something was going on cuz he literally tried to give her a book on the topic uh of of ethical non-monogamy. >> Did you read that book? >> I did. >> Were you interested in the lifestyle espoused by that book? >> No, I was not. >> How soon into the relationship did Broaddus Perry start discussing this concept of ethical non-monogamy? >> Actually, it started so we were just having conversations about things in life that we wanted to do bucket list type of things, things that we were curious in and at that time he was like one of the things I want to do is have a threesome and I was like, oh yeah, no, that's nothing I've ever thought about but he was like, well, I've had one before but I paid for it and this time I want to have one where I don't have to pay for it and so he began to speak about he would the term he would use is Tabitha and I being sister wives. Didn't quite know what that meant but as things went on he would start to talk about me watching them have sex and he was like, but I think she'll be on board with it just give it time and but so this would be the dialogue. And that dialogue just continued on to where it went from watchers to now wanting to have the threesomes and and um then that's when the ethical was introduced and so it was just like a progression of this lifestyle that he wanted. >> So kind of breaking that down, when how far into the relationship did he start discuss discuss wanting a watcher with you? >> Here's the thing, okay, watcher following time out when he wants somebody to watch him have sex. You can't tell me that this woman with her whole degree and just living life in general and having a show at that point called sister wives out the term being kind of pretty common even if it's used in jest, didn't know what a sister wife was when he brought that phrase up. It's stuff like see when you start playing dumb on the easy stuff, that's what makes me believe you're lying on the hard stuff. I didn't know what a sister wife was. Okay. All right. Although he also had given her the book Ethical [ __ ] or whatever it was already. All right, girl. >> Yeah. Um it was pretty early on. I would have to say it was before it was before they took their trip to Cuba, which was around his birthday in May, that he began to talk he was talking about the watcher. Um so that was 3 months. >> Was that a different trip than the the birthday trip that he took where he had the threesome? >> Yes, that was a different trip. >> Okay. Uh Did the threesome birthday trip happen while y'all were together or before? >> It happened while we were together. >> Did you know that he was going to do that? >> The threesome trip to in Cuba? >> No, when he went and paid for the threesome. >> Oh, that was well before I knew him. >> Okay. Uh At any point, did you watch him and Tabitha have sex? >> No. >> Was Tabitha ever invited to watch you and Broaddus have sex? >> No. >> Were you comfortable with the concept of a watcher? >> No. >> Was Broaddus persistent about a watcher? >> Very much so. >> Um explain that for me. >> Um everywhere we went, he would he would even text me and say, "Hey, you need to find us a you need to find us a watcher. Find us a watcher." And so I was I got to the point I was like, "If I can find somebody, hopefully I can get him to stop." So I was I asked a friend of mine if she would do it for us. And she um she was like, "If I do it, we taking it to our grave." He had her, too. He had me to tell her, "Too bad." >> Well, then I guess it's not Y'all not taking it to the grave now cuz you got to talk about it on the stand. And here we are watching Court TV, so we all know now. We I'm Somebody already figured out who the friend was, I'm sure. Process of elimination, somebody's figured out who this friend is, and that sucks for the friend. It really does. >> Broaddus confided, and he we were able to dialogue three-way, and the things that he was asking her to do, she just backed out. >> Did that whole thing make you very uncomfortable? >> Very much so. >> Why were you willing to even entertain it? >> I wanted to make him happy. >> May I ask this, guys? May I ask this? If If Okay, hold on. Why would you ask a person that knows you to participate versus a stranger you may never have to see again? I'm glad the friend backed out. Good for her. I wouldn't have that conversation with my friend. As soon as you ask me something crazy like that, don't talk to me. Don't ever talk to me. If you even think I was going to No. No, no, no. But why would you pick someone that knows you to keep having that memory in their head? I don't even understand this. And then he continuously asked you, you're not comfortable with it, you're not really trying to do it, but this is still love. This is Yeah, I think she shot that man, cuz again, she did some stuff she didn't really want to do, and then on top of that, he had the audacity to break it off after she did a lot of things she did not want to do. >> So, now I want to talk to you about Broaddus wanting to expand the ethical non-monogamy. Uh Well, I guess first, was he actually engaging in ethical non-monogamy? >> No. >> Tabitha had no idea any of this was going on, right? >> No. >> Um as far as you knew, she knew that that's what he wanted, but he hadn't told her. >> Well, as I knew, correct. >> And you've heard differently from even that here. >> Yes. >> Did Broaddus ask you about expanding the relationship beyond you? >> He did. >> Um >> when he asked you about that, how did you respond? >> I told him I didn't want to. >> Did he tell you, "Well, my wife's on board with it, so why isn't my girlfriend?" >> That's exactly what he said. >> Did that cause problems between you and Broaddus? >> At first, no, but as it continued to go on, it did. Um especially after he joined like this I I He called it a book club, um but it was they met on Marco Polo talking about the book The Ethical [ __ ] and so the more that he engaged in that, it became to where it was because he was more like, "You need Why are you not on board with this?" And I'm like, "Why would I be?" Like, it doesn't make sense because we already have limited time together, so why would I say, "Yes, you can be able to be with multiple women." And so it was that part it, you know, was it was hard. >> So did you think she was the first out of the church to develop a relationship with him? And then if he's so open of giving you a book about the topic, then telling you he wants you to be a sister wife, then telling you he's got this group that he also wants to have as sister wives or whatever. Where this I don't know what question to ask. I just I don't understand where she didn't understand where this relationship was going. I I don't get it. And this is someone again that's like she's a seasoned person at this point. >> Did you love Broaddus Berry? >> I shouldn't have, but I did. >> Uh were you in love with Broaddus Berry? >> I was. >> Were you wanting to build a life with Broaddus Berry? >> I wanted what we had at that time, yes. >> And y'all saw each other frequently, right? >> We saw each other just about every day. Um I would cook for him, and so he would come to my office to eat lunch. Um if he didn't come to the office, I would drop it off for him. But it got to the point to where he knew my code to my office, so he would just come in. He knew where to get his lunch, warm it up, and if I had a session, uh of course, he would wait out in his vehicle, but other than that, he would come in and we would sit there and have lunch every day. >> How did Brodus react when you told him that you were not open to expanding to allow him to have more girlfriends? >> Um he still he was emotionally distant. Like well, he would just use he would start he would tell me, "Well, you need to go and find someone." And I'll be like, "You know I don't want anyone but you." And so, he knew that that would play on like my insecurity. So, one time when he said, "You need to go out and find someone." I said, "Well, what if I do?" And he said, "Well, then you will not we won't be together." So, he knew that was going to get to me because I wanted to be with him. Um I enjoyed our time together when we did have it, and I and and so, he used his the emotional part, the affection. He would he would give it to me, withdraw it if I wasn't really complying with what he wanted. >> I believe that. I believe he's very manipulative. I I for sure believe that. I think when men of his type ask you to do these things, bring in other people. First of all, he's already telling you pick out a person. That's pretty bold. Um all this stuff, they've already done the things. They're just now trying to see if they can get you comfortable with the things they've already done. >> Since all of this has happened, have you had time to really retrospectively consider your relationship with Brodus? >> Mhm. Yes. >> I want to talk to you we'll get back to that. I want to talk to you about that Marco Polo group, okay? >> Okay. >> Uh Brodus was in an ethical non-monogamy group with two other women, right? >> Yes. >> Were you a part of that group? >> I was not. >> Were you ever allowed to be involved with that group? >> I wasn't. >> Um but you knew >> Okay, that does correct a misconception I had. I thought he had put her in the group with those other two women that we saw. >> about it. >> Yes. >> Would he have let you contribute? >> Um that was the first time that of any activity that he done that he didn't even invite me to do. >> Did he actively keep it from you? >> Uh I would say so cuz with any other thing he did, even to joining um like the a bourbon society, like we had memberships to a lot of things together, but that was one thing that he did not invite me to. >> Uh I want to talk to you about when Broaddus and Tabitha Perry moved to Memphis, okay? >> Okay. >> Um Mississippi Boulevard reached out to Broaddus, right? >> To my knowledge, according to him, um the pastor from Mississippi Boulevard reached out to Pastor Bonner, and then Pastor Bonner shared that with with Broaddus. >> Had Broaddus, to your knowledge, had any issues at St. Mark's? >> Yes, he would tell me a lot about um conflict that he was having with some of his co-workers. And then there was one instance where um according to him, he had had um misuse of credit card. >> You're on this is going to the context of their relationship, just getting background on the this is going to her. Buying things, paying for things, it's This is a this is a debt that she he repaid for him. That's what it's going into. >> I Can you repeat the question? >> How much was that he got money to the church for Broaddus? >> Yes. >> How much was that? >> Um the debt was 2,500, but I ended up getting him 2,300 and he got very upset with me about it. >> Why did he get upset with you about >> Because he wanted me to do the full price. >> Uh and that was not your debt, right? >> No. >> So did Broaddus talk to you when this other church reached out to him? >> He did. >> Did he discuss with you whether or not he should accept it? >> Yes. >> What did you tell him? >> I told him I thought it would have was a great opportunity for him. >> Why? >> Um because of the things that um was being shared to me that he was some things he was dealing with within the employment at St. Mark. I thought thought that that would be a great thing for him. So he sent me his resume, told me to change it to a performance base, and I did that and he went to that interview. >> Is Mississippi Boulevard a prestigious church? >> To my knowledge. >> Um and you're not from here, right? >> No. >> You've never >> So she wrote the resume that moved him from Arkansas to Tennessee. And after he got there, he said, "Hey, I don't want to do this anymore. We're good." >> Never lived in Memphis? >> I have not. >> Uh did he eventually, to your knowledge, accept that position at Mississippi Boulevard? >> Yes. >> Did the church have a going away party for Broaddus and Tammy Perry? >> Um I planned a going away party. Actually, he had two. He had one at the cigar lounge and then one um for the church. >> Who planned the party at the cigar lounge? >> I did. >> Who planned the party at the church? >> I did. >> Who paid for the majority of the gifts? >> I did. And then he gave me a backstory on how to be able to elicit money from the other members of the church so that he could have a certain amount of money for when he left. >> What do you mean? >> Like he So this man again is trying to get money get her to be into it to get money a dishonest way. And he still had her buy him the cycle that $400 briefcase his cigar membership dues and probably bourbon club dues or whatever that was. Did you not think at least at least if you're going to steal don't then also make me pay for additional things. I just I do think about it. I'm sorry y'all. I can't help but think about that too. Like I know you're stealing and you still got me coming out of my pocket to pay for things. >> Uh it was hey reach out to these reach out to the life groups and tell them you know I'm going away and we're going to do monetary gifts. So that's what I did. >> Did he get monetary gifts from that? >> He did. >> Um before Broaddus left did he give you his new address in Memphis? >> Yes. >> Now I want to talk to you about after they moved, okay? >> Okay. >> Did your relationship with Broaddus Perry continue after he moved to Memphis? >> Yes. >> Uh would Broaddus come back to Little Rock? >> He he would. >> Um do you know why he would come back why he would come back? >> Yes. Uh the main reason why he would come back is because of his orthodontics appointments. And then also he um was building up a business um and a consultant business and he was beginning to get he had one client that he was coming back to begin to do some consulting with. >> What would happen when he came in town between the two of y'all? >> Uh we I'm sorry. So top two reasons that it wasn't that she came back for her. He came back for consulting and orthodontics. And then I guess he so happened to maybe like I'm in town you want to see me? He would meet up at the hotel and hang out. >> I want to tell Was that he would come in town and he would contact you? >> Yes. >> And y'all would get together. >> Yes. >> Now, I want to talk to you about April the 15th. Okay. I'm sorry, not April the 15th, March the 15th of 2019, okay? >> Okay. >> Did Broaddus come in town that day? >> He did. >> Did he text you? >> He did. >> Did you meet him at the hotel? >> I did. >> Do you recall what hotel? >> I think it may have been SpringHill. >> What happened after you went to the hotel? >> Um the first the first time I went to the hotel, it was, you know, just to drop off he had asked me to bring him to go buy him something to eat and to get it stop by and get him some bourbon. Um after I brought that to him, he uh we made an agreement to meet up later on. Um I had called him and um as it was getting later and said, "Hey, what time are we going to meet up?" And he was just like, "I don't know. I'll let you know." Um but he never called. So, I was at home and I was like, "Um I'm just going to break up with him. Like, I'm don't want I'm not going to do this treatment. Like, it's no." I went to the lounge. Um I still had some gifts to give him. And he was coming out and I said, "Open your Unlock your car." And I started putting in the gifts in. >> Well, that's manipulation. They both manipulated each other. But that's manipulation. If you're like, "Okay, I'mma break up with him." You're not bringing the gifts. The gifts now either get returned, you get your money back, or they're going to go to somebody else. That's not a breakup move. That's a let me see if he's serious move. Let me see if I can still be a part of this move. I'll break up with him. I don't I don't believe it. >> Once he got closer to me, he just hugged me and gave me the key to the room and was like, "Go to the room." So, I was like, "Okay." And I did. >> Once he hugged you, was it all better? >> It was. >> Is that kind of how it went with Broaddus? >> Yes. >> So, tell me about what happened after that. >> Um that was one of the times that I still had my clothes on. So, of course, when he got in there, he's like, "Why are you still Why are you still got clothes on?" And I was like, "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't I I'm sorry." Um I got undressed. Um I did tell him I said I was coming to break up with you cuz of the way you were treating me. And he laughed it off and was like, "Well, why didn't you?" And I was like, "Cuz you know I really do love you." He came over to the bed, started tickling me. We We laughed it off and then >> I wish there was a camera on the jurors' faces when she is saying this. >> And as we began to engage in what I thought was going to be lovemaking was not that that night. >> Can you tell me what happened? >> As I was performing oral sex on him, he began to thrust himself inside my mouth really hard. And I told him that that was hurting. Then he grabbed my hair. I had long hair and he wrapped my hair around his hand and he started yanking it. And when he wasn't thrusting himself in my mouth, he was pulling my hair really hard. And with his other hand, he would just hit me and hit me and hit me. And I was like, "This is hurting." And he was like, "You better not bite me. You better not bite me." And then after that, we had sex and it was just rough and it was hard and it was just not what we I was used to. And then once we finished, something he never ever does was he rolled over and just gave me the cold shoulder. And I was like, "You're not going to hold me." And he was like, "No." And just went to sleep. >> How did that make you feel? >> I felt so used. >> Did that affect you emotionally? >> Yes. I was like, "What is always happening to me?" >> This to me is the core motive. A woman scorned. I don't take away from the fact that he may have that he did something uh that she did not consent to. He's a dog. He's dirty. He's unethical. So, I don't put anything past him that he actually did that. But this is the motive. Why would you do that to me? I love you. Why What did she say? Why does this always happen to me? He was the straw that broke her camel's back. That's why she shot him. Because he just became another in the line that she believes of men that used her. Watching her dad abuse her mom possibly was the first one. The first husband that left her basically just dropped her clothes off at What do you say? Back at her parents' house with no nothing. We I'm just out. Um and then you got your second husband. I didn't hear her mention it, but when the defense did their opening statement, I thought they said the second husband was abusive, but what she said about the second husband was abusive, but what she said about the second marriage was he was emotionally distant and neglectful. And that's when she wanted to go through marriage counseling, and that's when she met this pastor and everything. So, I think that was her last straw, and that's why the pastor didn't make it cuz she was like, "Not again." >> Did you decide anything when you were in that emotional state? >> Well, that particular night, I just was that morning, we we stayed the night together, and that morning he got up and he left. He was getting dressed, and I was like, "Where are you going?" Like, we always showered together. And he was like, and I I was like, "Where are you going with still smelling like me?" And he was like, "None of your business." I was like, "Since when did you not tell me your schedule?" And he left. Well, he was getting ready to leave, so I got up and I got dressed, and as I got dressed, I grabbed the key card for the room off the thing, and he he, you know, laughed it off, and I left. And later on, I texted and said, "Hey, are we meeting up again?" And he was like, "I'll let you know." Of course, the day went on. I had rearranged everything thinking that he was going to end up seeing we would see each other earlier that day, but I didn't. And so, that night, um, when I still didn't hear from him, I decided to head to the, uh, room. And as I was going, he was there. But, in my wanting to head to the room, I had made the decision that I was going to kill myself in front of him because I just wanted him to feel the pain that he was causing me. And so, when we got in the room, he was already in there by the time I parked and got in. And I I I pulled out my gun and I told him, "You're about to feel the same pain that you've been giving me." >> Did you ever threaten him? >> No. >> Did you threaten yourself? >> I told him I was going to kill myself. >> What did he do? >> He began to tell me no and he kept saying that he loved me and that we can fix it. And I was just like, "No, you you're treating me so bad." And he was just like, "That's not I love you. I love you." And eventually he talked me into putting the gun on the counter and coming over and sitting and talking to him. >> Did that restore a reason for you to live in that moment? >> It did. >> Was this the first time that you had gotten to the point of hopelessness that you felt like you needed to kill yourself? >> Not in a relationship, no. >> Okay. Um I'm going to say the fact that she said she did this around mid-March in the hotel room, showing up with the gun, saying she was going to kill herself, is why now they're leading that to they're going to say that she was just she didn't do it that time, but she came to do it the second time when she actually drove from Arkansas to Tennessee to um supposedly kill herself in front of him at his apartment this last time. If she already had a gun mid-March, I I don't know if they're going to talk about it, but I wonder what happened to that gun because she ended up buying a gun on April 24th, the same day she did end up killing him. So, I want to know what happened to that first gun, as well. >> Have you struggled for a long time with depression and suicidal ideations. >> Yes. >> After Rhodes convinced you to put down the gun, did he take the gun away from you? >> No. >> Did he take the gun from the counter? >> It wasn't until I got ready to leave when I went back to try to to get it and then he pushed me out the way and he got it. >> He didn't want you to be able to leave with the gun? >> No. >> And was he worried what you would do with it? >> Uh yes, but he did make he made me promise to meet him the next morning at the lounge. >> Did he Do you know where he put the gun? >> At that time I did not. >> But he kept it from you, right? >> Yes. >> And you later found out that he had placed it in the locker at the cigar lounge? >> Yes. >> After that happened, did you realize that you needed a little bit of time? >> Yes. >> Uh what did you do? >> Um I made a plan to go and be with my friend. She She is a therapist, but I wasn't I just needed to get away and she had an extra room. And so I just told her that I needed her to watch me and to just be there if I needed her. >> Was that in Little Was she in Little Rock? >> She lived in Pine Bluff, Arkansas. >> So how far away from Little Rock? >> Mhm, about a 45-minute drive. >> Is she someone that you also worked with? >> Yes. >> Uh at that point in time were you pretty desperate for >> Yes, I even was going to go and and be with a friend another friend of mine who was a clinician, but she lived in St. Louis. But she then by the time it was for me to leave one friend to go to her was then going through some marital issues herself, so I decided not to go to her house. >> During the time that you stayed with your friend, were you speaking with Broaddus? >> Very limited. >> When you got back to Little Rock, did you resume speaking with Broaddus? >> I did. >> Were you all still together at that point? >> Yes. >> I want to talk to you about April the 4th, 2019, okay? >> Yes. >> Can you tell me about the text that you got on April the 4th? >> Um I had sent our regular morning, good morning text. I didn't receive hear anything from him that morning. Um and then later in the the afternoon, uh I see him where he had responded, and so I open it up. And it said, "I think our time is up." So, he had broke up with me via disappearing text. >> How did that make you feel? >> You see, after she already said, "Why does this always happen to me?" Now, you get a breakup text that disappears? She She was pissed. Um so, I guess she never got this gun back from the cigar lounge, so she bought that second gun cuz I really I'm glad they answered the question. I'm like, "Why Why did she buy another gun if she already owned a gun?" Um I don't think it should be expected for anyone to continue dealing with you, no matter how poorly they treated you, after you come to the room with a gun talking about you going to shoot yourself. I know this whole thing has pretty much been unrealistic, but that's even more unrealistic that someone's probably going to stick beside you if they already hinted towards or said, "I think we should break up." And then you come to the room with a gun, where you're going to shoot yourself or them, and you think they want to stay with you. He safely got back to Tennessee and was kind of like, "I think this is it." And too bad for him he picked the wrong one to mess with like that. But yeah, I I'm this all feels like she shot him out of anger. That's all this is giving me. Her own testimony testimony is backing up the fact that I'm like, "Oh, she was just pissed." >> I felt so used and worthless and I just felt like trash. Like who throws who does that to somebody who they say that they love? >> Your Honor, approach the How did you react after you read that? >> His mistake was seeing her as meek, disposable, wouldn't actually do anything. That attempt was I guess attention-seeking to him, that she was not an actual threat that I may need to be very gentle with. But when you're a user, you don't think about the consequences to yourself when you're ready to discard whoever you've used. >> I wrote a letter. I wrote a note a suicide note to my family cuz I was just like, "I'm tired. I'm tired of the pain. I'm tired of it all." And I just wanted to just I wanted to paint it in. So, I wrote a note and made a plan to take my life. >> Your Honor, approach the witness. >> Yes. >> Natasha, do you recognize that? >> Yes. >> What is that? >> This is the note that I wrote to my family. >> Your Honor, I'd ask that that be made the next exhibit in the case. I'll get you on exhibit 2. We shall call this suicide letter as exhibit number 22. Natasha, can you tell me the date and time of that letter? >> April 4th, 2019 at 3:14 p.m. >> Can you read that letter to the jury? >> To my family, I'm sorry that I have let you down. I tried my best to be the person you all thought I was. I tried to be the person you could count on and be proud of. However, I have been depressed for a long time. I did well with coping until the past 2 years. My world changed February 24th, 2017. And the [ __ ] just get keeps getting worse. I know what I have been through may be nothing to some. And you don't understand why I couldn't bounce back. I have fought hard for so long to keep things together. I didn't trust anyone to know deep down how bad I was struggling. Only a handful of people knew. But they couldn't help me. To my fellas, I'm so sorry that I have let you down. I have fought hard to be the best mother I could be to each of you. I pray that what I have taught you will stick with you forever. Please don't be ashamed of me. Mother, thank you for being my mother. Please know that I Although you didn't think I loved you, I really did. I wanted so badly for us to be close. There was many times I just wanted to crawl into your arms and have you hold me. I'm sorry for being a failure. I tried to make you proud of me. Words can't explain or express the pain I feel at this moment. I have pretended for so long to be happy. I have tried to work through the pain and begin to heal, but just as my life would have it, yet another loss appears to remind me just how much of a failure I am. I don't have any insurance and I don't have any money. So please, just have me cremated and don't worry about a service. I don't want to be a burden. I'm sorry for letting all you down. I love you as all so much and I wish I could live myself as much as I I wish I could love myself as much as I love you all. Please take care of my fellows and always remind them of my love for them. I'm not being selfish. I just don't know how. I don't know. Okay. I don't I don't know. This This got out of hand, but it says, "I'm sorry for letting all of you down and I love you all all so much. I wish I could live love myself as much as I love you all. Please take care of my fellows and always remind them of my love for them. I'm not being selfish. I just don't know how to continue bearing the pain I have felt for over 25 years of my life. With each loss, hurt, disappointment, etc. I've experienced through the years, it only added to my current state of mind. I thought I could continue to push through and be strong, the strong Tasha everyone know, but I can't. I'm weak. And I have been for over the past year and a half. I thought I would bounce back. I prayed consistently, but I guess God no longer hears my prayers since I wasn't doing his will. I'm not perfect. I've messed up so many times in my life. The thing I wanted to be the most successful in I messed up not once, but twice. Well, really three times. I will leave that for you all to find in my journals. >> You were found at 3:14 p.m. >> Yes. >> Where did you leave that? >> I left it in my phone because I knew my little sister would find it because she helped me with my appointments and that's the phone she used for making my appointments. >> Did you leave it for her to find? >> Yes. >> What did you do after you wrote that note? >> I drove to Sherwood to go purchase a gun. >> Why did you go purchase a gun? >> Cuz I didn't have my other one. >> What was the purpose of the gun? >> I wanted to end my life. And I felt like that was going to be the best way to do it. >> When you went to that store, were you buying a gun to kill yourself, or were you buying a gun to kill someone else? >> I was buying a gun to kill myself. >> It's not impossible that a woman would use a gun to kill herself. But usually women go the more painless route of overdosing on pills. Uh I don't know how this is painless, but they go the slit the wrist route, stuff like that. It's usually not in character for a woman to want to go out via a gun. That's usually men. And that's not me. That's what the uh the statistics said. I'm not saying it. Obviously, it's not 100% of women that don't choose to go by gun, but it is uncommon. I'll say that. >> I had a whole plan. >> What was your plan? >> I didn't want to do it at my house cuz my my son live with me. So, I decided I was I was just thinking about all the pain to go to this park in Jacksonville, Arkansas. >> How far away from Little Rock was that park? >> Jacksonville might be about a 20-minute drive from my home. And the reason why I chose that was because that's where Broaddus was He was from Jacksonville, Arkansas, but the Jacksonville part of it was attached to him. And the name of the park was Johnson Park, which was attached to my second ex-husband. And then Ray Road, my daddy's middle name was Ray, so I just associated with older pain from the man in my life. And so that's where I was going to go. >> How did you go there? >> I was going to drive. In a car. It's um From my home, it would have been straight down 440. >> Is that an interstate? >> Yes. >> What happened while you were driving to Johnson Park? >> As I was driving, I saw the Memphis exit. And so then I was like go talk to him, Tasha. Just go let him see you. Go see him. >> All right, sorry, sorry. I'll go back a little bit, but did she say her initial intention was to drive where her parents live? I was typing and I missed it. And then she saw the Memphis exit, so she decided to go that way where he live. And I I was trying to type, but StreamYard keeps blocking when I respond. So Mindy, I was just saying I do agree with you. That's a very much another top reason that women don't go that way. They definitely want to preserve their appearance and all that stuff. I totally agree with you on that one. Um an academic try her Oh, no, I answered. Okay, y'all answered too. She is the mistress. And Okay, I think that's it so far. This is YouTube wouldn't let me or StreamYard wasn't letting me respond. He's blocking my comments. >> As I was driving, I saw the Memphis exit. And so then I was like go talk to him, Tasha. Just go let him see you. Go see why. And that's what I did. I just drove to work and see him face to face and hope that I can get something from him besides the fact that he broke up with me with a disappearing text. And as I was driving he did text me and as he was he was telling me that he still loved me. So I was trying to just figure out what was going on. >> What did you do after you saw the Memphis exit? >> I took it and I drove to Memphis. >> Where did you go? >> I went down to where I knew he would possibly be which was a lounge um against us in the downtown Memphis area called the pocket. Um at the time I think it was a fairly new lounge that and that he um when he got employment at Mississippi Boulevard one of the members there had told him about. >> Did you go to the pocket because Broaddus told you he goes to the pocket on Thursday? >> Yes. >> Do you remember what time you arrived? >> Um I don't. I just know it was dark. And I know that I circled around for approximately 30 minutes trying to find a parking spot cuz I didn't know that you couldn't like park on the street but everything down there was paid like and I yeah. >> Um Just to back up for a second. When you went to the gun store to buy the gun to kill yourself, what did you take with you? >> Um just my license and my my debit card. >> Where was your purse? >> Um I I guess I left it at home. >> Um Did you bring just necessities with you to the gun store? >> Yes. >> And you left the gun store right after you purchased you finished purchasing the gun, right? >> Yes. >> Um How did you select the gun? >> Um I went with what was the cheapest that was on they have a wall that has all the guns, the names, and the prices and I just chose the cheapest one. >> Um how did you select ammunition? >> Um whatever the guy told me to get I got it cuz I was about to walk out the store till he was like, "Do you need uh do you need ammunition?" I was like, "Oh, yeah." And and so he told me, whatever he recommended, I was like, yes. >> Uh and did you see on the video where he was showing you different types of ammunition? >> Yes. >> Is that what he was saying? >> Right. And I told you couldn't hear but I was like, I don't I don't know. Just what you whatever you tell me. >> When you left the gun store, what did you do with the gun? >> Um I think it was still in the bag. Um I went home because I did um wanted to leave my son something. So I stopped at the ATM and got out whatever money I could get. And so when I got home, I put that in his room. And then I um I changed clothes. And I dumped some bullets out on the bed and just grabbed a handful of them and took the gun and and left the house. >> What did you do with the handful of bullets and the gun? >> Oh, once I got in my car cuz I was trying to hurry up and leave cuz I didn't want him to come home while I was there. I um I loaded the gun in my car. And once whatever was left over, I put everything into my coat pocket that was sitting in the passenger seat. >> Uh now when you parked downtown, where did you go? >> I started walking in the direction in which I knew the lounge was. Um and once I got on the street, uh I started walking up the street and I actually saw Broaddus coming out of the lounge and I walked >> So she didn't want her son to see she had the gun and the bullets, but she would have been okay with, had she gone according to plan of her testimony, she would have been okay with blowing her brains out and he had to find out that she had been struggling and all this other stuff. His mom, the therapist, thought that was the best way that to do for him and take the money out the ATM and leave for him. Very selfish. Self-deletion is very, very selfish for the people you leave behind Oh my god, I'm sorry. For some reasons, for certain reasons, I think it's even more selfish. >> of Pastor. Were there any rules in your relationship regarding how to behave when you saw him in public? >> Yes, I was not to approach him because I never knew who he may have in his company, so I was not to approach him, but if he acknowledged me, then I could have, you know, talk to him. >> Did you come within his sight? >> Yes. >> Did he acknowledge you? >> Yes. >> And you actually walked past >> I I passed I walked past him, and so he said, "So you just going to walk past me and not say anything?" >> At that point in time, did y'all engage in a conversation? >> Yes. >> Uh after you talked with Broaddus, um what was what was the what What did y'all figure out? >> Well, we decided that um because he still His thing was I still wasn't wanting to be on board with him and this non-monogamy and hadn't been able to see other women. So, we came to the I told him, "Well, we still haven't told Tab. You've always said something about telling Tab, so we haven't told Tabitha." And um he said, "Okay, we'll tell Tabitha." He told me to go to the apartment and just talk to her about tennis until he got there, and then >> But he don't want you. He gave you a disappearing breakup text. What else is there to talk to Tabitha about? Y'all it was not going to be a thing. I also am like, "Did he tell you to go to his apartment to talk to his wife?" I don't know. I don't know. >> That once we would he was there, we would tell her. He had to go to his boss's house to drop off something. And so, he gave me a backstory as to what to tell her if she asked me why I was in town. And and we left, but before leaving, we came to the resolve that once we told Tabitha about the relationship, we had a trip that was planned to go we was going to Kentucky. If she said yes, then that would be a new start, a fresh start. But if she said no, then that would be the the trip that we would we would end. >> Did Broaddus indicate to you that he was going to tell Tabitha while y'all were at the apartment? >> Yes. >> About your relationship? >> Yes. >> Um and what would have happened or would you have been allowed to tell Tabitha without his okay? >> Um I didn't I didn't know. >> What >> Now, this is confusing me because I believe it was her defense that said on day one It had to be somebody from her side cuz they would have had to known what what she said they talked about. But they phrased it as I she said I'm going to tell your wife and he basically called her bluff and was like "Tell her, I don't care. She already knows." or something like that. Now, when she's on the stand, I'm hearing they agreed she should go as if it was a civil thing just to do and totally different energy on how she ended up at the apartment versus how they explained it on day one. >> But would you have been able to continue a relationship with Broaddus if you had done that? >> No. >> So, I want to talk to you then about when you left downtown, okay? >> Mhm. >> Where did you go? >> Um I put in the address that he had given me. And so, that address did say Calumet. I didn't know how far away it was or anything. I just placed it in the GPS. >> Do you remember what time you arrived at the apartment? >> I know it was late. I just remember when we were there and we were talking, I remember the news coming on. >> Probably around 9:00? >> Um yes. >> So you left Little Rock, Arkansas at approximately 5:00, right? And drove to downtown Memphis, right? >> Yes. >> That takes about 2 and 1/2 hours? >> Yes. >> How long would you say that you were talking with Broaddus? >> We talked for a while because I remember the valet pulling the car up a ways and getting out and just cuz he was sitting in there waiting on him and we never did, so he just pulled it up and we continued to talk. >> So then you left downtown, it was dark? >> Yes. >> Drove to Collierville? >> Yes. >> What did you do when you arrived at the apartment? >> Um I circled around cuz I couldn't It was dark and I really couldn't see like numbers or anything. So I circled around um and then I guess eventually I found the the the um building number and I parked and found my way to their apartment according to the address. >> If I may just have one moment, Your Honor. >> Yes. >> Is this also a photograph of your vehicle? >> Yes. >> Which vehicle is yours in that picture? >> The silver one. >> This one? >> Yes. >> While you were sitting in your car, did you call Broaddus? >> I did. And I shared with him that I was a little nervous and could we just go somewhere and talk and he said, "No. We're going You wanted to talk to Tabitha. We're going to talk to her." >> Did he answer um every time you called him? >> Uh I didn't call him a lot, but I did that night. >> Uh before you walked inside, was there times you called him and he didn't answer? >> No. >> Not that you recall? >> Not that we recall. >> After you had talked to him and he said, "No, we're going to do this." What did you do? >> Um I went to the apartment and knocked on the door. >> Were you wearing your coat? >> Yes. >> When did you put on your coat? >> Um when I got out of the car to go to find him at the lounge. >> So, when you were walking around downtown at night by yourself? >> Yes. >> Did you ever take your coat off after leaving downtown? >> No. >> When you left downtown, how would you describe your feelings? >> Um I was a little hopeful. I was like, "Okay, maybe you know, we can get some resolve. I can get back We can get back to normal." And so that's what That's what I was focused on. Um >> And when he insisted on telling did you get even more hope? >> Yes. >> So, what did you do? Uh did you get out of your car? >> Yes, I got out of my car. >> Were you still wearing your jacket? >> Yes. >> Did it register to you that you had a gun in your pocket? >> It did not. >> Uh Did you go to the apartment? >> I did. I don't know this, so I'm going to ask. Can you forget the weight of a gun in your jacket pocket? Is that likely? Especially after you've written a four-page letter self-deletion note. Went and bought another Went and bought the gun the same day. Took a detour to try to talk to him at the cigar lounge. Do you not register the the weight of a gun in your coat? Like Come on. I I I'm I'm I I don't know. I honestly I don't know. >> What did you do when you got to the the door? >> I knocked on the door. Um and I I can't remember, but I ended up bending down. And that's when she said, "Do you know I'm not going to open the door for someone I don't see." And so, I knocked again. And And that's when she was like, "Tasha, is that you?" >> What do you mean you bent down? >> I don't know I don't know if I couldn't remember if I was talking to her or something. I just remember bending down, which is why she didn't see me when I knocked the first time. >> Uh you just don't remember? >> No, I don't. Yeah. >> Uh Who answered the door? >> Tabitha. >> What did she do when she answered the door? >> She um when she opened it, um she embraced me and said, "Hello." and welcomed me in. >> Did you go inside? >> I did. >> Where did you go when you went inside? >> Um she was she positioned for me to the to the toward the couch, and she sat on one end and I sat on the other. >> And that would be >> Your Honor, if I may put up This is part of the cumulative exhibit. Is this the couch that you're referring to? >> Yes. >> And you were seated on this side? >> I was. >> And Tabitha was seated on this side? >> Yes. >> Did you uh talk to Tabitha? >> Uh yes, we talked. We talked about tennis, but right before we kind of got into the tennis talk, she had made a phone call to Broaddus. >> And what did she say to him? >> She told him uh she asked what how long it was going to be before he got there. And then she uh told him she had a surprise for him. >> When Tabitha let you into the apartment, did she close the door behind you? >> Yes. >> You and Tabitha were sitting alone in the apartment with a closed door, right? >> Yes. >> Would anybody outside of the apartment have been able to see in through that door? >> No. >> How long did you sit talking to Tabitha? >> Um again, I know the news ended up coming on. Um so, maybe 15 minutes or so. >> At any point, did you pull your gun out and threaten Tabitha? >> No. >> At any point, did you verbally threaten Tabitha? >> No. >> At any point, were you trying to hurt Tabitha? >> Not at all. >> Were you happy to be there about to have this conversation with Tabitha? >> Yes. >> Was Broaddus there yet? >> No. >> Now, I want to talk to you about when Broaddus Perry arrived, okay? >> Okay. >> Uh when he walked in the door, could you see him? >> Yes. >> Can you describe his demeanor when he saw you? >> Um when he came in, he didn't he didn't look surprised or anything, which is what I thought he would do since he knew I was going to be there, but he was just like uh I think Tabitha was like, "Surprise!" And um he was like, "This not a surprise. I thought you had some keto cookies for me." And from there, and he was like, "What are you doing here?" And I then I went with the story again that I was in town for a conference, um, and we just kind of started engaging in a small talk. He came and sat beside me. Um, and then after about a minute or so, he was like, "Would you like some a pour?" >> What is a pour? >> A pour is, um, some bourbon. >> Did you accept the pour of bourbon? >> I did. >> Where was Broaddus seated? >> He was, um, approximately a foot or two from me. >> I'm putting back up from the cumulative exhibit. >> That blue chair? >> This blue chair right here? And you were seated here? >> Yes. >> And Tabitha was still seated here? >> Yes. >> After you accepted the pour of bourbon from him, did he make any comments about you drinking? >> Um, we he came back and sat down, and as we were talking, he did he would make references to me drinking and would say, "Well, I think you're going to have to stay the night." So, I'm thinking, okay, well, this is about to get into this conversation, but he never would give me eye contact, um, but he would continue to make like, "We have to clean off the bed in there cuz it has a lot of clothes on it." And, um, but I'm still looking at him to get like to see where you're going with this, but he never did lead into the conversation. Um, he actually started asking me questions like, "So, where are you staying in Memphis?" And I'm like, that wasn't part of what you you told me you was going to say. So, I don't know Memphis. He knows I didn't know Memphis. And so, I didn't know what to say. I finally said an Airbnb. Um, and then Tabitha was like, "Where?" And I was like, "Um downtown." And then that conversation ended. Um and he continued to So, that he continued to say uh something about me staying the night, but never going into the conversation of what we were supposed to be talking about. >> Had you ever been into that apartment before? >> No. >> On April the 4th, when you were there, what part of the apartment did you go into? >> I walked through the front door, which led into a small little hallway, and right into the kitchen area. >> And then into the living room? >> into the Yes. >> Did you go into any bedroom? >> No. >> God, this is part of the cumulative exhibit 13. Did you ever go into the guest bedroom? >> I did not. >> What is all over the bed in the guest bedroom? >> Clothes. >> Had you seen that? >> No. >> But those are the clothes that Birdus was talking about? >> Yes. >> When he was talking about clearing off the bed and you sleeping over, did you think that was his jumping off point to talk to Tabitha? >> I thought so. >> How were you feeling at that point? >> Very nervous. >> Uh were you also excited? >> I think I was more nervous cuz I just didn't know which way it was going to go, but um hopeful. >> At some point, you lost hope. >> Yes. >> And you said you were going to leave. >> Yes. >> Why did you decide to leave? >> I saw that it wasn't going anywhere. Like I said, he was not giving me eye contact. Um so I knew or I felt like he had changed his mind. And I just didn't want to keep sitting there feeling, at that point, stupid. >> What happened after you said you were going to leave? >> Um Tabitha got up. Um he got up. And so she began to tell me about watching for the police, you know, because I had been drinking. Um >> Had you drank a lot? >> No, not at all. But she still was just letting me know. And she began to uh walk toward the door. And um I asked him would he walk me out. He said no. And I said "Why not, sir? That's Southern hospitality for you to walk a woman outside when it's dark." Um cuz I wanted to just get him to see like what happened. Why Why didn't you follow through? But he refused to walk me out. So Tabitha opened the door and was walking out. I was still trying to get him to walk me out. And as I reached into my pockets to get my keys, I remember being outside the door. And then the next thing I was standing in their kitchen. >> Is this the first blackout? You remember being outside and then you remember nothing until you were standing in the kitchen. Is this the first blackout? This woman, I'm so sorry. There was a Okay, there was a lot of manipulation on his side. But even as she repeats back his actions from the time the relationship was supposed to be good to the time he broke up with her, he was always cold-hearted. Like I She knew what she had. And that's why I don't believe that he said "Yeah, let's go talk to my wife together." I don't believe he said that. I think he was honestly surprised to see her in his apartment. Um The only thing I don't remember is because I thought when a po- Not the police officer. It was I thought somebody testified and said she had got there when he got there. She walked back to her car at some point and then came back shooting. But that may not be what they actually said, but my brain is trying to remember it that way for some reason. But, she's delusional is what I was trying to say. You This man broke up with you through disappearing text. You say you bought this weapon to take yourself out, and you were driving to a park that reminded you of your parents or had something to do with your past. And instead, you saw the exit for Memphis, so you took that exit. And And then, you know him to always be the cigar lounge or whatever, so you go to the cigar lounge. You see him, but you walk past him to wait for him to say, "Oh, you're just going to walk by. You're not going to say anything." Then, you talk, and he's like, "Well, I just need my wife to be okay with this." Whatever y'all said, and it gets you to the point of being at that wife's house, talking about tennis like y'all friends. He comes. So, there's no I thought she was going to say at some point he tried to attack her, and that's what made her get defensive and shoot him. That's I I thought we were going there, especially when they asked him where was he I didn't ask him, but they asked the wife was there a gun in the house, where was it, then they asked like did the police find a gun, something like that. So, I I don't understand. You are so delusional to insist that man walk you to your car. I don't understand. >> Do you deny that you shot Vertis, ma'am? >> I do not. >> Do you deny that you shot Tabitha? >> I don't, but I know it wasn't intentional. >> Did you mean to shoot Tabitha? >> No. I wasn't trying to hurt anybody. >> When you went to that apartment that day, did you intend to use your gun on either Vertis or Tabitha? >> No. >> Come on, man. Okay, so yeah, we did She did get to the kitchen, and she doesn't remember that she was shooting people. I was wondering what is she going to say that the psychologist said she said she blacked out and all that stuff. So, your last trigger was him not walking you to your car. The same day you bought a gun and and drove to Memphis. You didn't have a plan to do anything but take yourself out. But we got a wife shot and the man dead shot multiple times. I can't get with this. I I was telling the chat I think somebody's going to be like, I can't believe how cold hearted she's being to this woman, but I don't have it for this. I don't. >> When you went there, what was your purpose in going there? >> Thinking that I was going to get some kind of ending to the relationship. >> And what what do you mean? >> I'm like, okay, of course after I got to, you know, talking to him at the lounge, we had a plan. It was either going to be a start or a ending, but it was something that I could see like I knew it wasn't just a disappearing text and with but still I love you, you know, so I went to the apartment against for lack of a better word to get some resolve. >> Did you have hopes given that Tabitha was open to the the open marriage? >> Um I was nervous about that cuz like I said, he had he had told me she had these rules about not nobody that you know and things like that. So, I'm like, she knows me. Um so, I don't know what that was going to be like. I didn't even think about anything beyond that. >> As far as Tabitha goes, this is a person that you became friendly with, right? >> Correct. >> How did you balance that with having an affair with her husband? >> It was very hard. She like we would we would we started off she had approached me to invite me to lunch. I it came out of nowhere and I was I didn't know like what was really going on because by this time Brodus had been talking about us being sister wives. And so when she asked me, I was a little confused cuz I'm like, okay, you know, has he talked to her about it? But she never said anything about our relationship. Um even when we began to play tennis, it was her who initiated it. So, it was uncomfortable for me, but we were friendly. >> And um >> It was hard. But I still did it because I wasn't going to tell her cuz I love Brodus. >> When Brodus told you that he wouldn't walk you outside, he said Todd will do it. How did that make you feel? >> Before she says how that makes her feel, so she loved Brodus enough not to air him out to his wife, but to literally air his body out with five shots. That's how she showed her love. You can't do this to me. No. No. Mhm. >> Rejected. Unworthy. Stupid. I was so stupid. And it hurt so bad. >> Were you angry or were you hurt? >> I was hurt. >> Were you thinking clearly when you pulled the trigger? >> No. >> Were you reacting to that situation? >> Yes. >> Was that a traumatic situation for you, too, in retrospect? >> Oh, yes. I hate what happened. I'm so very sorry. I never wanted to hurt anybody. >> How do you know you were reacting to that situation if you blacked out? Cuz you said the last thing you remember is asking him to walk you to your car because that's southern hospitality. >> I've spent most of my life helping. I never would intentionally try to hurt anybody. >> Did you ever plan to kill Bert as Perry? >> Never. >> When you drove to Memphis, were you driving to Memphis to kill Bert as Perry? >> No. >> Why did you drive to Memphis? >> I drove cuz I just wanted to see him. >> Why? >> I wanted him to explain why he did that. >> Did you hope he would say, "We can be together"? >> Yes. >> Did he give you that hope when you went to the apartment? >> He did. >> Did he yank that hope away? >> He did. And then he up and did it. >> Did you break at that moment? >> I shattered. >> Did you ever intend to hurt Tabitha? >> No. >> Did you even realize that you had shot her? >> No. >> It's all a blur. Cross-examine. >> Because Tabitha is still alive, I feel like she did not want to kill Tabitha or even hurt her, but Tabitha said what she remembers is she covered her husband's body with her own and then Latasha, the defendant, said, "Get out of the way." So, I don't think she did want to kill Tabitha or hurt Tabitha. Tabitha was collateral damage, though. >> mination. Ms. Singletary, I'm going to take you back to April 4th, 2019, at around 4:00. You remember yesterday when we introduced that surveillance footage of you at the gun store, right? >> Yes. >> And you know that that was you in the gun store. >> That was me. >> And you purchased a gun that day. >> I did. >> And you also purchased ammunition that day. >> I did. >> And when you went to that gun store, you brought your state-issued ID, correct? >> Yes. >> And you brought your credit card. Correct? >> I did. >> And once you left with that gun and the ammunition, you didn't go to Jacksonville, did you? >> No. >> You drove to Memphis. >> No. I drove home. >> But you eventually ended up in Memphis, did you not? >> That is correct. >> And you chose to go see Broaddus Perry. Correct? >> Yes, I chose to go see him. >> A man that you chose to be involved with. >> When I first encountered Mr. Perry under for counseling, I did not choose to be with him. I went to him for direction, not a relationship. >> It's a yes or no question. You chose to be involved with him after you met him, did you not? >> Yes. >> And when you got to Memphis and after you talked to Mr. Perry, you drove to his apartment, correct? >> Yes, I drove to his apartment. >> And from Sherman, Arkansas to Memphis is about a 3-hour drive, right? >> Um I According to what has been said, I wasn't count counting. >> And when you got to that apartment, you talked to Mrs. Perry. >> Yes. >> And when you got to that apartment, you stayed there and you talked with her for about 20 minutes. Correct? >> Yes. Yes, we talked for about 20 minutes. >> And then once Mr. Perry got there, you talked to him. >> Yes. >> And while they were gracious enough to walk you out of their apartment after an unexpected visit, you got your gun out, didn't you? >> It wasn't unexpected from him. >> But from Ms. Perry, it was. >> It was. >> And at >> The demeanor switch up. Oh. Oh my gosh. I'm I'm watching. Okay. >> After you exited, you decided to take your gun out. Correct? >> No. >> And after you exited, you shot Mrs. Perry, did you not? >> Uh My actions resulted in them being shot, yes. >> And then you shot Mr. Perry, did you not? >> It wasn't a conscious decision, but yes. >> But you didn't do it because you lost control. You did it because you thought he deserved it. >> No. I love Broaddus. I would have never intentionally hurt him. No, ma'am. >> I hope don't nobody ever love me this much that they didn't intend to hurt me and now I'm dead with five shots in my body. I hope nobody ever loves me like that. This makes no sense. Ma'am, if y'all have actually, like, the ones in the bushes, if y'all have watched this all three days, you have to tell me this doesn't make sense. Like, her testimony cannot make sense to you. Please, please tell me I'm not the only one because I already know how I'm looking right now. >> You did it because he broke your heart. >> No, ma'am. >> No further questions, Your Honor. Were you in a good state of mind that day? >> I was not. I was not I was not my healthy self, no. >> When you came to Memphis, did you come to Memphis out of anger or out of love? >> I came out of love. >> Did Broaddus expect you to be there when he walked in? >> Yes. >> Did that visit go the way that you expected it? >> It did not. >> Did it end the way you expected it to? >> It most definitely did not. >> Did you go there to hurt anyone? >> No, I did not. >> Who did you plan to hurt? >> I wanted to hurt myself. I wanted to end my own life that day. That's it and that's all. >> I'm only going to say this cuz you didn't actually end her life and she's still alive. But you could have done that in the car. Uh you had a lot of time to to do it, a lot of places. But somehow you are still alive. And someone else is gone. But all this is about how much you are or were suicidal. >> I have no idea. >> And we all agree on this. And we all agree on this. You may You may call your next witness. >> You are already a witness. >> Yes. >> All right, let me see what else we got. It's a little short piece in here. Let me see. Okay. The rest of this day it says outside of jury's presence. So they going to go into day four, which is the final day after this. I'm going to see how long day four is to just see. If it's short, we'll keep going. If it's long, I got to say I got I need a break. I cannot do this with this woman. Oh, no. I know it's not going to be a full actual 9 hours, but it does have 9 hours and I'm sure with some breaks. So we going to have to do this next day another day. People that are just getting to know me, don't judge me harshly. Just look at all the story, please, cuz I know I look First impression, I probably look real bad right now. I know it. I know it. But yeah, thank y'all that have come through to watch this so far. We're ending day three. Day four is the final day plus the jury's verdict. And then I see I think it would come to her sentencing after that. That may be a different day. So if I find that, we'll watch that, too. But we got to get through day four. All right, but thank y'all for making me not feel crazy. And I will see you soon. Enjoy your Memorial Day. I talk to y'all later. Bye.