Well, now we have a problem. Why? >> All right. >> Amity, Maine. Fewer than 300 people on a single road near the Canadian border. On the night of the 22nd of June, 2010, three people were stabbed to death in a trailer on US Route 1. 55-year-old Jeffrey Ryan, his 10-year-old son Jesse, and Ryan's friend, 30-year-old Jason Dhan. They were found the next evening. Jesse inside the trailer, his father in a shed, Dan in the brush beside the road. 10 days later, in a police station in Dover, New Hampshire, two main state police detectives sat down with a 20-year-old who had been living 3 miles up that road and who had left the state 2 days after the killings. His name was Ormsby. He was not under arrest. >> We have a chalkboard here, so if we need to draw anything out, you can help us out and things like that cuz you know the family better than anybody, right? I'll do my best. I don't know that I know him better than anybody, but >> you know better than I do perhaps, >> you know. You know, so >> no, we talked to a lot of people, you know. We talked to uh uh Tam obviously heard she get arrested. >> Who? >> Tam. >> Yeah, I guess it was like criminal trespass or something. >> So he's Dale Keegan and you're >> Adam Stoutmire. >> Adam Stoutmire. Yeah. You're from New Hampshire, >> you know. So anyway, >> yeah. >> How you like the rough uh carpentry? I mean, you know, the framing and stuff like that. >> Yes, I do like it. I do like it. I helped put up the ridge pole and put up the rafters and >> we did all that, the sheathing and the roofing. I was a big part of the roof. >> It's interesting to see it as it develops now. It goes up. >> Mhm. >> Ever heard of a man named David Lee? >> He's famous for his work. Oh, really? >> And he's built 26 of these houses. They're castles, but they're made with oak and sh was talking about the beginning here. What type of person you think would do this? [sighs] >> No, I haven't given that much thought, but I mean cold. Someone would have to be cold. Someone would have to be um greedy maybe. I don't know. someone would have to be just heartless. I mean, I never met uh his son, >> Mariah's little brother, but who could do that? >> Who could kill? >> Well, you never know. We never biggest thing that we don't understand is reasons. I mean, there's a reason for everything, you know, and mistakes happen. And that's the why even a computer has a delete key, you know, mistakes happen. You know, >> wrong place, wrong time. uh panic self to pass. Who knows? >> Are you well aware of the constitution and all that stuff? Right. >> Well aware of the con. >> Well aware of the constitution and your rights and all stuff. You understand you're not under arrest? >> Yes, I understand. >> If you ever want to leave, you just tell me you can leave. All right. All I ask is, you know, don't be rude about it and just say I want to leave now. All right. But one of the things >> I mean I'd be a little bit shocked if I were under arrest to tell you the truth. I >> So would I. But >> so >> and I'm I'm here to cooperate. >> That's right. That's right. I appreciate it. I know you know your rights and all this stuff. One of the formalities that we have to do is tell me your rights. Okay. You can probably recite it better than I can. >> I actually I I don't know that I could recite it. >> All right. But you understand it though. Uh [clears throat] I'm a law enforcement officer. We are. I want to ask him some questions. Before I do so, I want to explain your rights. Okay. Let me do this routine to everybody. Okay. Just so you understand. Okay. Uh you have the absolute right to remain silent. Do you understand that? What's that mean to you? >> It means plead the fifth is another way to explain that. But it means I don't have to say anything to you if I don't want to. I can just close my mouth. >> There you go. You don't have to talk to me if you don't want to. Right? Uh anything you say can will be used against you in a court of law. You understand that? What's that mean? >> It means anything I do or say here is if brought to court can be used against me. >> Now having all these rights I've just explained to you in mind, do you wish to answer questions at this time? >> Yes, sir. >> Good. Formalities. Right. >> Right. What should happen to the person when we find them? >> What should happen >> when we find the bad guy? What should happen? >> Well, I imagine you're going to read him his rights formality, >> right? >> And lock him away. >> You think he could should go to jail? >> Of course. >> Yeah. >> Well, unless unless there's a good reason. Can you think of any good reason something like this could happen? >> A good reason? >> Yeah. Do you think of any reason? I mean again we don't understand reasons you know just because they did something like this doesn't mean they got to go to jail for all their life you know but just can you think of any good reason for something like this to happen >> any good reason for something like this to happen you know I cannot think of any good reason something like that could happen >> at Uncle Steven through the high school years >> that's right >> okay >> so obviously things were not going with your mom during this >> age 12 up to age 17 >> you lived with Uncle Steve. Okay. Anything significant happened at age 12 to make you want to move out from um to go with Uncle Steve? >> Well, it wasn't my choice. It was a matter of DHS or DHS Department of Health and Human Services. It was a case of abuse and violence and alcohol and all that other stuff. >> Not to get personal about that time in your life, but what type of was it? Not to get personal. Was it physical abuse? Mental abuse or what did you feel was >> physical? mental and they were abused drugs and alcohol. They were >> Yeah, >> that was my whole party phase. It pretty much started and ended at 17. Really? I met a guy named Dustin Oliver and he was no good. >> And what happened is I took him in to my uncle's home. I took him into my home and he was more homeless than homeless. The homeless shelter had kicked him out and I felt bad for him. I just met him and he seemed nice. >> Yeah. And he was into drugs and he was into alcohol and he liked robbing cars. >> Not something I was into. >> Yeah. >> But uh we did some stupid stuff. >> What was the stupidest thing you ever did? >> Stupid. >> Even if you didn't get caught. >> Oh no. I I got caught. Um and I always get caught. Um, >> you always get caught up. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, [laughter] I It's It's the weirdest thing. Anything I ever do, there's always someone looking. You know, >> nowadays there's cameras everywhere. >> Okay. So, Tamara's come back in. And so, is this the first time you've seen Tam? >> This is the first time I've seen Tamara in years. >> Seven years. Anyway. >> Wow. >> And how's you and Tamara hit it off? >> Good. >> Yeah. >> We were just, you know, we were friends just like always. >> Yeah. nice to me and I was nice to her and and >> you know I Mariah got to come over and I got to see Mariah. She did stay for a couple weeks >> and went back to Matt. So I I ended up staying at Bob and Joe's >> just waiting for them to to get up >> to get up there. >> Right. And and Tamara did not stay there. Tamara >> Tamara kept going back down to Addison would come up for maybe a day or two >> back down >> back down back up back down. Tamara's always >> she's kind of mousing. So, who was staying at Boulder Joy? Just the three of you and Tamara [clears throat] comes and goes. >> And Tamara and Elwood comes and goes. Sometimes Mariah didn't come while I was there at this time. >> And then talk about how you met Jeff. >> He came over to Bob Joyce. >> Okay. You remember when that was? >> Early when I got there. A couple days after I got there. >> You at some point he went back though and that's when he told you that I'm having a hard time trying to find you a job. I'm having a hard time uh getting where you went there. >> He didn't have he didn't know of anything. >> Mhm. >> That was a second visit or third visit you were back there >> to let me think about this. >> Um >> cuz you said before you asked him to get you a job and stuff and then later in our last interview was he had to see any jobs that find a job. knew of any work or any sort of work. >> And then Jenna's last interview, you said to me that uh you went up and talked to him and he couldn't find you anything >> and you had the beer and all that stuff. So tell me tell me about that. >> Okay. So I go up to talk to him. >> How long ago after the first visit when you went there? >> Uh a week. >> About a week later. >> About a week later. >> Okay. And what's going on when you up there this week later? >> It's just Jeff. Jeff's alone drinking a beer. Moment is long. outside. >> Outside. >> And how was Jeff doing? >> Jeff was doing good. >> Yeah. >> Jeff was talking about his son saying he was going to be back. >> Okay. So, Jeff's son was not there at this point. >> Okay. So, this was about a week before this happened >> cuz you only you only lived out there 3 weeks, you said, right? >> Yeah. It's it's all Yeah. It's all such a short proximity, >> right? So, you were there, you met him, and then uh about a week later, you go out. So, that would have been a week before this whole thing happened. You were there. >> How did I get there? I walked up. >> You walked up? >> Okay. It's the shortest. >> You didn't take a bike? >> No. >> Okay. Uh Okay. Do you mind? [clears throat] I'm not I'm a visual guy. Can you draw the trailer for me and say where you went in that trailer? Cuz it's important to see where you went and all that. >> Can you show me around? >> Sure. >> Yeah. Right there. >> The interior of the trailer. >> Yeah. Yeah. or any just the whole life, everything. Here we have kitchen bar. There's your refrigerator where I got the beer. Here's the door to the house. Here's the porch. [clears throat] Your shadow. This is the living space here. How does this work? There's this tree house. Where was I? I came up the front lawn and we told me to come on in, grab a beer, and then he's got chairs here. We sat down here. It was a hot day. We came back outside, sat down here. That was it. >> And he had already showed you around the place before this, you said. He showed me his house. Yeah. >> Before this visit. >> Before this visit. No, this is the visit. There were there were only All right. >> There was at least two visits. And you said the first time, the very first time you met him, you went down, had a beer. Then you said I asked you it was the second or third visit that this happened. And you said it was the second visit. >> I'll be I'll be I'll be straightforward because there's no reason I can't. >> I appreciate that. >> I do have a bicycle. We know this much. >> Okay. And I've >> Is it a 10 speed with the handlebars come down around? >> No. >> So you had a bike, right? Okay. Tell me about that. I appreciate being honest. >> There only two occasions I've met Jeff. >> Uhhuh. >> The one where he comes down to the house, >> right? >> And I combine those two occasions over a week later. I come back >> and you're on your bike this time. >> And I'm on my bike this time. >> And I ride my bike, but I ride my bike on the road, >> right? >> And I ride it on the wall. >> Okay. >> And I park it right here somewhere. >> Okay. I come in and I have a beer with him and he shows me around the house >> during that visit. >> Yeah, during that visit. And that's the only visit though that I made to Jeff. >> Oh, no. You said the first time >> he visited me and I visited him. >> The same occasion. You said the very first time he met you, you asked him to get a job and stuff. He He said, "Come on." >> Two different occasions. I combined the two in one. Just to be simple. >> No, each time you were here. How many times you're at this house? >> Once. >> Once. >> I've only been there once. I've been to his house once and it was just >> and this time here he shows you around >> and he shows me around. >> So the first time you said you went there after you met that very first time you met him >> I said but really that was the week later >> just to be simple. >> Why Why would you do that? Why would you confuse me like that? I I I confuse you because [laughter] it's irrelevant. >> Because it's >> Well, it's not really irrelevant because we got three people dead. So that's why it makes it very irrelevant. Especially when people are are not telling the truth. >> I understand. But I mean, I had nothing to do with it. >> Okay. The driveway going in. >> Yes. >> Tell me about that. >> Um, I was riding my bike one day getting bottles, bottling, and no one was home. I rode by. I've rode by twice. Okay. >> That's when you have to drive by. >> Yeah. I rode by. I rode in. >> I don't know. >> How do you know was home? >> No vehicles. >> Okay. When was the bike ride and you were up the driveway? Cuz we found bike problem bike prints up there. That's why when I asked you the other day if you had a bike, you said no. Today I asked you if you had a bike, you said no. Now I'm confused. Why didn't you tell me you had a bike? >> I didn't tell you I had a bike because >> But there's all bike prints there. >> I heard I heard stories about biker gangs and I didn't want to be confused with >> No, I asked you the other day. Pedal bike. >> Yeah, >> pedal bike. Okay. Pedal bike. A pedal bike. >> Right. But the other day you said you didn't. So, I'm just confused on why you did not why you admitted that from me. That's all I'm asking. >> Because I didn't want to. >> Okay. Okay. Now, you're inside the house here and it was just you and Jeff in that house cuz you said you never met Jason. >> I've never met Jason. >> Okay. Have you ever heard of Jason? >> I've never Jason. >> I've heard of him. I've heard of him through Craig. He's He's Craig's friend. And again, I haven't seen Craig in years. And he was up there when I was there. >> But I've he talks about Jason. >> Other people. >> How do you know he's Jason's friend? Craig's friend. I think uh I overheard someone just saying >> who would who would talk to you about that? >> Craig. >> So Craig talked to you about some random guy named Jason. >> Uh all right. Me and Craig were riding to Halton. >> And you went by here obviously. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> And he honked >> at Jason's house or Jeff's house? >> Both. >> Okay. So you know where Jason lives? >> Um >> he must have. You just said he honked at the house on the way by. >> I think so. I think that's his house. Well, I assume they honked to the horn. You probably said, "Who's that?" And that's my friend Jason. >> How else would he talk about Jason? I say that's where Jason lives, right? >> Cuz I'm confused because the other day you said you didn't know where Jason lives. You know nothing about Jason. >> I >> So now you're Now you're saying >> I don't know anything about Jason. >> You know where he lives. >> I think I know where he lives. >> Craig just home at his house on the way by. >> You just said that. >> How at his friend's house? I asked someone else about. He didn't say, "Oh, that's my friend Jason." making this up. >> Well, no. I'm trying to understand. >> You talk in circles. Okay. I'm trying to say who told you about Jason. >> Halton. We come back to Halton. Who told me about Jason? I don't know who told me about Jason. I think Bob or Joy or >> or Craig or Mariah. >> Watch what the detective has not said. The beer bottle was recovered on the day the bodies were found. Ormsby's fingerprints and a DNA sample were taken at the first interview 3 days ago, and he gave them voluntarily. The match already exists. It existed before he sat down in this room. So, every question in the last 20 minutes has had a known answer. How many times were you at the house? Once. Did you own a bike? No. Have you been down that hallway? Never. Have you ever met Jason? Never. None of those questions were asked to learn anything. They were asked to fix him in place. A man who has said once four separate times cannot later say twice without first explaining why he said once. The photograph of the three bottles has been sitting in that folder the whole time. It isn't evidence being discovered. It's a door being closed behind him. >> So, you want up that ride one only up that ride on your bike one time? >> One time. >> Okay. Why are we finding a couple different trips up through there and another trip through the woods on a bike and footprints going through the woods and stuff coming out in front of uh uh Bobby's house? Why are we finding that? Are you confused? And maybe you forget a time that you're up in there with a bike and coming out through the woods in front of Bobby's house cuz we got your path there, the cane on and all that stuff. >> I mean, did you forget that? It's okay if you did. I'm just trying to see when were you back. These woods here coming out in front of you forget that. >> No, no, no. That was just uh I just gone over to check out the junkyard. >> Where's the junkyard? >> It's right beside Bob and Joyce. >> That's not you coming? >> No, that wasn't me. >> Okay. Now, when you're in that wood, you in the in the house there, you said you had >> That's why I don't want to be confused because there are other bikers. >> Confused. Okay. That's why I need to hear from you exactly what happened. Okay. You're in that house. >> I'm going to tell you there are other bikers. >> I understand. That's right. We talked to several of them. Okay. Now, you only had one beer in that house. You said >> one beer. >> And it was a Budweiser bottle. >> Budweiser bottle. >> And you said to me the other day you drank it all. >> Yeah. >> Okay. What happened then after you drank that beer? >> I told you I left it on the counter. In the sink. I don't recall. >> You left it in the counter or in the sink? >> On the counter or in the sink? >> Oh, on the counter or in the sink. Okay. I know you told me that, but is that what you really did or? >> Yes. >> You smoke? Do you have any smokes in the house? >> Smoke. >> Cigarettes. Cigarettes. >> Smoke any cigarettes in the house? >> In his house? >> Yeah. Jeff's house. >> I smoked one of his cigarettes. >> What type of cigarette was it? >> A rolling cigarette. You know what brand or anything like that? >> I don't know what type of tobacco or what the filter. What type of filter was it? Was it a brown filter? White filter? >> It must have been a brown filter. >> Okay. >> If I told you it was white, would that screw you up? >> Yeah. I don't know. >> Okay. >> You said you said you never met the little boy. >> Never met the little boy. >> Did he want you to meet the little boy? He never made >> like I can't wait for to come up. I want >> He was He was He was That's what he was telling me when we were talking on the porch. He was saying, "I hope uh I'm going to go get him. You know, I think you'll be back for the summer." >> Mhm. >> You said he showed you the house. Did you uh go through the house? Did he take you room by room or did you just say >> Did you go down in here? >> No. No. >> How do you know there's a bathroom there? >> You drew. Because I asked >> You asked Jeff. >> I asked him where the bathroom was. >> Yeah. Did you go to the bathroom? >> No. >> Why not? >> I didn't have to go to the bathroom. >> Why did you ask where the bathroom was? >> In case I needed to go to the bathroom. >> Are you kidding me? You said where's the bathroom? >> Well, I never said bathroom's down the hall. And he said, "Well, where's the bathroom?" [laughter] >> You mean you and I have been together now for a couple You've only been with him for 10 minutes. You said, "Why would you ask him in 10 minutes, hey, where's the bathroom?" Down the hall. You know, you've been with us now for over a couple hours here. You never once asked >> our conversations wandered. >> Yeah. You're there for 10 minutes. You asked where the bathroom is. He told you and you didn't. >> So, there's no way in hell that your DNA is going to be down in this area anywhere. >> Yeah. >> Is what you're telling me. >> That's what I'm saying. >> All right. And there's no way in hell that your DNA is going to be back in here anywhere. >> Mhm. >> And uh you had a cigarette. What happened to the cigarette? You smoked it. You said >> I smoked it. I might have put the butt in my back pocket or thrown it out >> because you said you're kind of not worn about leaving butts around. You told me that in the car the other day, right? But you actually smoked a cigarette. >> Okay. And you have you ever been out in these trees up in this area? >> Nope. >> Oh, been one time on the bike back and forth here. >> Yes. >> So this event here where you were inside was about a week before this murder happened. >> Maybe two. >> Maybe two weeks. >> Never met Jason. >> Never met Jason. Inside that trailer, there's a bottle sitting there. Three bottles. And in that trailer also, we have your DNA and fingerprints on one of the bottles. So, maybe you're mistaken about why that happened, but I want you to straighten it out now. Okay. Um, see this picture? Yes. Three balls, right? >> Mhm. >> This one's yours. [clears throat] One, one of these is uh Jason and one of these is Jeff. I'm confused right now which one's which. Okay, this one's yours. Notice how clean the place is. On Monday before the murder, there was a party. We were playing horseshoes. People are in and out of there. People clean after the party cuz I talked to the ones who did it. Those bottles were not there >> Monday night. >> Tuesday, Monday night. >> Yeah. >> Your bottle's there. Your fingerprints on that. That match from the fingerprint I got the other day. Your DNA is in that bottle. Explain that to me. >> That >> I put two I set my bottle either here or here in the sink. >> But you see my problem. This bottle here belongs to Jason who you never met. >> Whom I've never met. >> The beer's half full. The beer's half full. The beer's half full. >> I thought I finished my beer. >> But it couldn't have been. Even if you did finish the beer, let's say that bottle's empty. They clean the house after the party on Monday. That baller would have been moved >> from your vision one or two weeks previous. >> It would have been moved. That baller would not be sitting there. Jason's bottle wouldn't be sitting there because you got a 10-year-old kid that's there. He's be walking around. It's time for him to earn money for chores. He helps clean. So, they moved all the stuff and put it to the redemption bottle container, right? >> No way in hell that bottle sat there for two weeks. If anything, it sat there for a couple hours. Is it possible you went there? I just don't remember hypothetically that you were there that this whole thing here happened on a Wednesday morning or late Tuesday night when you went down there on your bike, had a beer and all that stuff and Jason was there. Maybe you're just afraid cuz you thought it was irrelevant that yeah, I met Jason that night here. But if I tell you I met him the only night and he's dead the same night, you're going to think I did it, you know, and that's not necessarily true. But I want to make sure that if there's some over here. Well, I'm just telling you what the the evidence people are telling me. That's Jason's bottle. >> And now remember that is Jason. The one you said you never met. That is uh Jeff's bottle. This is your bottle. All three bottles are half full. Your fingerprint from your left index finger is on that bottle. And your DNA is in that liquid right there as is the other two people. So, tell me about how you were there. Tuesday night or Wednesday morning? >> Tuesday night or Wednesday morning? >> Yep. Yep. Wednesday night is when we found the bodies. All right. So, Tuesday night, we know they were alive Tuesday nights, they talked on the cell phone, right? We're pinging cell phones all the time. I can tell you every phone call that was ever made from Boba Joyce and from Tamron and from Mariah. That's what we do. And we pinging towers all the time. Even though the phone was turned off, we know that Tamara was downstate. All right. We also know that phone calls remain from this place, the Bob's house. Okay. Right around that same time as the homicide. Okay. We also know that I don't know if you know this or not, but as we're talking to you right now, we're talking to Big Bob up in uh AMD. Bob and Joy. All right. Bob is telling us uh what he remembers and he's telling us about bringing you down here and stuff. All right. But I want you to tell me you're a man of integrity. You're a man. You're a very intelligent man. and your and the politics and all that stuff. You seem a type of guy that's very right, straightforward. And I just like it is what it is. You know, it is what it is. You were there just before the murder or when this accident happened. All right. Tell me about that. How was your bottle there? Tell me how that bottle ended up there. >> Oh, you have my DNA is okay. >> You have my DNA bottle. >> Yes. But can you explain how Yeah. Tell me about what you did while you were there. Well, I drank half a beer, >> right? Tell me about Jason. You met him because that's his ball. >> That's his ball, >> right? Did you only meet him the one time? >> Honestly. >> Yeah. I want the truth. >> Straight forward. >> Straight forward. >> During this. >> Okay. What night was that? Or what day was that? >> Tuesday evening. >> Tuesday evening. Okay. Tell me what happened Tuesday evening there. >> How did you get there? >> My bicycle inside. >> Okay. What time of day was it? You said it was I mean was it dark? Was it >> not dark? >> Not dark. >> Not dark. >> Okay. Uh Jeff was inside. Was Jason inside? >> Inside. >> Jason was inside. Was a little boy inside >> at the counter having a beer inside playing the TV. >> You didn't know the boy was there, did you? >> The boy was out back playing the tendo or something. >> You didn't know was there when you first got there? >> Okay. So, you didn't know the boy was there. So, three of you are sitting there having a beer, right? And it was just the four was the four-wheeler there. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, show me where the the truck and the four-wheeler and the car was at. We just want to be okay. >> We know that's the truck. We know that's the car. I think that's the four. >> Four wheels right there. >> Okay. [snorts] >> All right. Now, you pedal up here in the bike. Where do you park your bike? right against the car >> right there. Okay, that's good. That explains the whole scratchy down there. Okay, so you go inside. You're sitting at the bar with uh Jason and >> I'm sitting at the table. >> I'm sorry. >> They're sitting at the bar. I'm sitting at the table. >> Table's [snorts] here. >> I'm sitting in this chair right there. >> Okay. And uh they're sitting at the bar. When you walk in, they go, "Hey, come on in." Or Life is good at this point, right? When you walked in, were they okay to see you? Yeah, >> I'm asking. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And they offer you a beer. >> Yeah. >> You go to refrigerator and get the beer. >> Yeah. >> Because you had one before. You know where the beer's cap. He's going to grab your beer. Right. You stop. You sit at the table and you're sitting here and you're having a smoke. At this point, you have a smoke, >> right? >> Yeah. I smoke cigarettes. >> Yeah. You had at least at least two cigarettes. >> That's right. I was smoking Blackhawks that night. Yeah. >> With the white pots. >> You know more than I do. >> I know everything. >> Yeah. No more. >> And soon you're going to know that I know that you know that I know, right? But you know that I know. So you have a smoke. Something goes terribly wrong. Jeff comes outside. We think something happened right down this area. Outside. >> We went outside and came over here by the garden and I smoked a joint >> down here by the garden area. >> I'm sorry. >> And I smoked a joint with Jason. >> And you smoked a joint with Jason. Okay. >> And Jeff didn't smoke. Mhm. >> Still don't know the boy's there yet. Yeah. Okay. So, you smoke a joint down this area. I'm just going to write joint there with Jason. >> Like I said, I asked Jeff about work. >> Uhhuh. And he uh and we were talking about carpentry and all sorts of different things and he said he had some nails for me and that's why you have my prints towards the shed. >> DNA towards the shed. He was trying. He wanted to show me. >> Where's the shits? >> Where are the sheds? >> Here. >> Okay. Do you want to show you some nails that are out there? Is that why >> I That's what you said. There were some nails out there. >> Show me some nails. >> When were you out there by the sheds >> that that night? >> Tuesday night in the Wednesday one. Tuesday. >> T It was Tuesday night. Yeah. And I was >> home shortly there after. thing. I want truth. >> I know you want the truth, >> but I'm gonna have to plead the fifth. >> Okay. All right. >> Does that mean you want to stop talking or >> for a minute? I'm going to get another coffee. Well, >> here we do take a cigarette and if you could bring me a joint, maybe >> I want you to uh we'll get you a cup of coffee. >> We'll give you a piss break. If you want some food, we can make that happen. I'm hungry, too. >> I cannot get you a joint. They kind of frown on that. Okay. And I cannot get you a beer. Trust me, I want >> I don't want to do it. >> I do. >> I do want to join. [laughter] >> Yeah. If I could give you a joint, I would. All right. Here's the deal. I'm going to make all that happen for you. All right. You know that I know the truth. And I want you to know that they're doing a search warrant right now up at Bob's and Joyce's. We got full statements from both of them. That's not consistent with you up to this point. And we're talking to uh Bob Jr. down here. We're doing a search at his place right now. And that's not fair to Bob Junior. He had nothing to do with this. So you're bringing him into something as a goat screw. All right. >> None of them had anything. >> None of them did. But you did. You know, there was an accident. I think I have theories about what happened. Um but >> the family the family deserves the truth. >> Yeah. >> And you deserve the truth to get this weight off your shoulders, >> right? You have a lot of weight on you right now, don't you? See? Yeah. And it will continue to heat you up like a cancer. You're not the first person I've talked to who's done something like this and it eats them up. And believe it or not, people have told me that after they finally spit it out, >> they feel so much better. >> I don't want [snorts] a media mess. >> I don't either. And we're going to keep it as low key. >> I don't want my name in the paper. >> I don't think you're a cold blooded killer that was out killing people. You know, I don't think you woke up in the morning and said, "Oh, let me go kill three people." It's not you. Is it? It's not you, is it? >> But one of the hurdles we need to get over with is first of all is honesty. Honesty in the fact that you're responsible for these deaths. That's the first step. I would like to know why. The curiosity is killing me. >> And maybe you don't even know why, you know, but something went terribly wrong. >> And I would like to know that. But one hurdle we need to get over is that you're responsible for this because we want you know what else too? The panic that's going on up there is horrendous. People are not letting their kids out. People are This is summer time. Kids want to go play. >> Okay. Why don't you go have some uh We'll get a cigarette break. >> We'll talk some more. >> It's going to be okay. >> All right. You're doing the right thing. You're a good boy. You're a good man. You know, you're not a boy. You're a man. And >> No, don't call me that. >> You don't think you're a man? >> Not deserved. >> Well, mistakes happen. Like I said, my dad always told me that's why they put erasers on pencils. That's why they put the leak keys on computer. See this board right here? I'm giving you an eraser to erase some of the mistakes that happened that night. >> Did he bring you a coffee? >> When he gets back in here, I'll go get you one. All right. Do you want Do you actually want a coffee, though? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. I'll get you one in a minute. >> I'll get you one when he gets back in here. [snorts] >> [snorts] >> This is the first time I've cried. Is it? >> Let it out. It's a lot to absorb, buddy. It's a lot to process. Huh? D, I want you to know that I'm here for you the best I can be. I cannot make you any promises about the media. I [snorts] can't make you any promises about that. That's way over my head. I will go to bat for you. I will go to bat and talk about this conversation. >> I will go to bat for you. I will to bat. I mean, I will stand up for you about what you tell me in here and and about how you're cooperating and stuff like that. >> Uh I cannot I will not be doing any press releases because I don't do that. That's up to my commander that does new stuff. I cannot control them. I mean obviously >> I understand goes from here. Other people >> I want you to understand I can't control that. I'm >> pro that and you can't promise me anything. >> All right. >> I understand. >> Out of free will. >> You just said out of free will I'll give you what you want. Okay. One of the things we have to do is read you your rights. Okay. You know how the system works. >> This time I'm under arrest. >> No, you're not under arrest. You're not under arrest. All right. I want you I do have to read your rights again. Only reason being because you said, "Well, maybe I should talk to a lawyer. I think I will bolt my fifth." You won those deals, right? But I want to make sure now you said you're willing to talk to me. I want to make sure you know that I didn't beat the hell out of you. So I had the deal. >> I was afraid of that, honestly. And you were afraid of you scared me the night that day you left. >> You were afraid of what? >> I knew you were I knew you were on to me. But yeah, I was afraid you were the bad cop and you were going to beat me up and beat it up. >> No, this is excited as I get. But but what I told you that day, if you did it, I'm going to get you. You know >> what I tell you? Do you remember? >> Huh? >> What' I tell you? Do you remember? >> You said I didn't do it. >> I said I know. >> Oh, that's right. >> I'm a law enforcement officer. I want to ask you some questions. Before I do so, I want to explain your rights. You have the absolute right to remain silent. You understand that? >> Yes, sir. >> You don't have to talk to me if you don't want to. Yes, sir. >> What happened? Everything was going fine to tell you the truth. And I did see Jesse and Jesse was in the living room and he was he was playing video games and we were just mildly introduced and we had a beer and everything. Like I said, >> I think we should start with why. >> Okay. >> I know you want the hard details. All right, you got your >> Why is good to know. I mean, [sighs] >> Jeff Ryan. >> Jeff Ryan. Yeah. >> And I never got this far. Alvin Silsby. And I've never met him either. >> Alvin Silsby. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. >> And he probably has nothing to do with this case and has nothing to do with the situation, right? But back in the day, there were three people that were the biggest drug dealers. I won't mention one, >> but the other two were Jeff Ryan >> Alvin. And you wanted to read the world of them. >> Yes. >> Just like your Facebook says. Facebook says that >> I'm going to rise like the What's your favorite movie? >> Boom. Doctor Boom something. >> Oh, [sighs] you're talking about my my >> Facebook >> Facebook photos. Rise from the ashes like a phoenix. [clears throat] No, that's just >> talking about starting my life over. Nothing on my Facebook has anything to do >> to do with this. Okay. So So you hated Jeff because he was a drug dealer? [sighs] because of the things he's done to other people. >> Uhhuh. >> Because of what he has was, >> right? >> Okay. >> But I don't believe in drugs like that. >> And drugs are a big part of your family's past with your mom and >> seems like everyone everyone, >> right, >> has been hurt by this. So you said when you get there >> it's >> I'm sorry. >> It's cancerous. >> Yeah. >> Drops are cancer. >> So you said when you get there everyone's in the house in the kitchen area and the little boy's playing Nintendo or something on the computer. >> Whatever he's playing on the TV. >> You said you're just kind of like introduced and passing. >> Yeah. We just introduced and talked and went outside to smoke the joint blah blah blah. And Jeff was abnormally nice to me. >> Abnormally nice. >> You know, he was nice to me which makes it strange, >> right? But I did add it up for him. >> You did? >> Yes. >> When did it turn from everything going fine to not so much? >> He say something to you? Did he >> I No. No. >> Did he Did he have to? >> No. >> No. >> Where you found him? >> Where you found my prince? my DNA in the shed where he was showing me nails. >> He was out there to show you some nails or something. >> And he bent over to get you the nails. What happened? >> I think you know what happened. >> I like to hear you. I have theories, but I like to hear your side of the thing. I know what happened. I want to see if you can tell me what happened. >> If I can tell you what happened. Jerry, >> I killed him. >> You killed Jeff. And how did you do that? >> With a knife. >> So he was bent over and >> No. No. >> Back to >> He was back. He was back to you. And you stand in the back. I'm asking. Yeah. Okay. And uh where'd you get the knife? >> It was my bayonet type knife. >> Large. large knife and that's the way you keep sharpening all the time, right? That was your head. You brought that with you cuz you always wear it. >> I knew you knew that much. Yeah. >> So, >> but I knew that >> he's outside. Okay. He's out there by the shed and Jason's in the house. Jason and the boy are in the house. Yeah. Jason and Jesse are in the house. >> Jason sat down next to Jesse on the couch, >> right? >> And you guys are outside and you're thinking, "Now it's time." He never said anything to you. >> He was just trying to help me. >> Okay. How many times did you stab him, do you think? >> Those are questions I don't know the answer to. >> Okay. Are you saying one or 100? I mean that >> multiple. >> Multiple times. Okay. Okay. >> Obviously more than one. >> Okay. Okay. >> So, you stab him and does he fight you back? >> Momentarily, but I >> I didn't want it to be a prolonged thing. I wanted it to be as clean as possible. And unfortunately, I mean, wasn't long, but >> it's not like television. >> It's different from what you expect. >> Yeah. >> And I'm not even much of a TV watcher, and obviously I >> have enough intellect to know that it wouldn't be like television. >> Yeah. >> So, does he say anything to you after you first met him? >> He didn't understand. Why? Why would you do this? You know what the >> he asked you what the why you >> what the stop. Holy [ __ ] Jesus Christ. Those type of words. >> Did you say anything to him? >> No. >> Never said a word. >> No. >> Well, in my mind, I knew that I couldn't just leave him there with two people who just saw me. >> It's daylight at this point, right? or getting dark or >> obviously this is premeditated murder is the term you use for it. >> I don't know. >> Yes, it is. It is. It is. >> You you did you go there planning to kill him? >> Yes. >> You did it. >> Okay. >> All right. How long before this were you planning this? [sighs] >> It was really kind of a new revelation. >> Were you planning it like for days, weeks? I mean, >> when when did you start planning this? >> Maybe days. >> You planned it for days. >> Thought about it. Thought about it. >> Consider it. consider. >> All right. So, when it come time that day when you were >> I want to I want to go back to explaining >> Okay. >> what my plan was. >> What is your plan? >> My plan was to kill Jeff Ryan. >> Yeah. >> To take his vehicle >> and to kill Alvin Silsby. >> And leave no witnesses and evidence. >> Okay. >> Unfortunately, Jason was there. >> Unfortunately, Jason and Jesse were there. >> Right. So you you you kill him outside. Do you hide him at this point or do you go take care of the other two? >> I go. >> Okay. What happens then? You have a lot of blood on you at this point. >> Okay. And then you What do you do? You come around up the stairs in the house. >> This point I'm I'm in a mode. I'm scared and I I have to finish what I started. >> Mhm. >> In my mind, >> it was a job. was like a hit to me. >> Mhm. >> And they were on the couch and I I started with Jason, but it and I Jesse ran to the back. >> Okay. Now, Jesse, was he sitting on the couch the first time you you stabbed him? I'm assuming. I'm asking. >> Yes. >> You stabbed him? >> Yes. >> And does he stand up? Does he just >> He ran I stabbed Jason. They were sitting side by side. Jesse ran to the back room. It's I I I thought Jason was done or thought >> I didn't think he was going anywhere. >> Yeah. >> Both all of them talked. >> What did Jason say? >> Um he I'll explain. >> Sure. >> I mean, how detailed do you want to be? >> As much as you can. >> Just walk through me a thing. What do you want? >> Walk me through it. Yeah. >> I'm already guilty. I might as well. Right. I stabbed Jason and Jesse ran into the back room. So I chased Jesse and he was the quickest. He just said he was scared. The families don't need to know that. >> No, we do. >> Jason wasn't done. He wasn't down. He got up and he ran outside and he ran down the road. And I chased him down the road and that's why he was in the ditch. >> Okay. >> And he I did pull into the ditch because I wasn't going to leave him in the road. >> He what? I'm sorry. You pulled him into the ditch? >> Yes. >> Okay. Okay. >> And does he say anything to you as he's trying [snorts] to get away from you? >> Yeah. He didn't understand because obviously I just met him and there was no reason to him. >> You really only met the very first time. >> It was really the first time I met him. >> Yeah. >> And you're stabbing him. I mean, he didn't understand. And did you do something else besides stab him? >> I cut his throat. >> You cut his throat. How many times did you cut his throat? >> Two, maybe three slashes. >> Two, maybe three slashes. >> And it's obviously something I had never done before. And it was just Jesus. >> What did you do from there? [snorts] I uh I was I I made my round voice around the premise. I ran around the back of the building, front of the building. I went inside, >> you know. Where's Jesse at? >> I took a look and picked up whatever I had dropped. I lost >> a bracelet in the struggle. >> You found it. I found it and I had lost a hat and I'd found it. I knew I had the beer bottle and I thought I took the beer bottle to be honest with you. I thought I put it in the back of the truck and if you look where you found the truck, you'll find the beer bottle I thought was mine. >> You grabbed chest by mistake. That's why we couldn't understand how to chest bottle get up the scene. You grabbed chest by mistake. >> Okay. >> I think I think that bottle was already in the back of the truck. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I threw my bike in the back of the truck. I went around and tried to wipe off any evidence. >> Yeah. >> You wiped up the sink. >> I found that washcloth head that you found on the table. >> Yeah. >> And I Yeah, I washed off in the sink. >> The times you think you stabbed him? >> Well, I heard on the news five, so I'm assuming. But >> well, you know how the news is. >> I don't know. >> You don't know. Is it possible you stabbed him five times? >> It's possible. >> You only stabbed the one one at this point inside the trailer. How many times did you just stab him inside the chair when you thought >> three or four anyway? >> Okay. >> I don't know. >> And you thought he was dead at this point? >> I thought he wasn't making it out of the house >> because then that's when you you cut you said you cut his throat twice at least. >> Once I pulled him into the ditch. >> You put him in the ditch first. >> I pulled him down into the ditch. >> Yeah. I I brought him down, put him to the ditch. I know. I hit him in the head once and I was shot. >> I was I was nervous. I was the road. So, what do you do to Jeff? >> Do you leave him there? Do you hide him or >> No, that's right where he landed >> cuz he was like in the shed. He was found in the chicken coop on his back underneath the thing. >> I know. It seems like a weird spot. >> Did you Did you drag him in there? >> No. >> Get away from you. >> He tried to get away from me. >> Well, you come back and get Bob Senior >> to help you burn the truck. That's what Bob's saying. So he says he sees you, he sees you covered in blood and uh and he says to you what the hell happened and you told him everything that happened and I know you don't want to get bo involved but already told us. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So tell us about that. >> He just >> did he drive you down there to uh Tamas that night, Tuesday night, or was it Wednesday morning when you first saw Bob? What night? What night? >> It was dark. You just killed him. >> Do you tell B right then or do you tell Was he daytime? >> I told him right after I did it. >> You told him right after you did it, right? >> And he was shocked. >> He was shocked. What did he say to you? >> Not much. should have just asked him to bring me some coffee and he told me to stay away from the house cuz I was co >> cuz Bobby talks about how he went down there and helped you burn the truck. >> Well, you burnt the truck, but he gave you a ride back after that. So, >> he gave me a ride. >> Mhm. >> Obviously, I drove the truck. [clears throat] Obviously, my hair was burnt. >> Actually, it blew me up. >> It did? >> Knocked my ass to >> Did you cut your hair since then? Yes, sir. >> And shaved and my face is already healed. >> No, no cuts on you. You never cut your hands at all. >> No cuts. [sighs] >> I was wearing a glove on this hand. >> You were wearing a glove on that hand >> for the truck. >> For the truck. Would you stab them? >> No. >> The confession is finished. Legally, the detective already has everything he needs. Three deaths, a weapon, a stated plan, and premeditation confirmed three times in his own words. Nothing more is required. So listen to what he asks next. Not what happened, how it was done, where the skill came from, whether it was learned somewhere. The word proficient is the detectives. So is professional. Neither man used them at any point in the previous hour. Each is offered as a compliment, and each one invites the same thing back, an explanation of method, from someone who has spent the whole interview establishing that he is the most intelligent person in the room. That vanity has been in plain view since the first 10 minutes. Tolken, the Constitution, the castles. The detective has simply stopped arguing with it and started feeding it. None of what follows was necessary. All of it was volunteered. >> And one of the reasons I add you're very proficient in what you did. Where did you learn this? >> That's just it is >> that's another thing is you were curious about did you learn how to do this from any military training, martial arts training, TV, movies, videos, video games. The way you stepped it was very proficient. self-nowledge. I mean, it was my first time ever having anybody really I've never even shot a deer. I've never even shot a deer. I mean, I've cleaned a deer. I've cleaned a skunk. I really barely hunted, >> but it was just mental focus >> and I I've studied things that I shouldn't have studied and know things that I shouldn't have studied and such. >> So, you you you read a lot of literature on assassins. I mean, >> I back to the original question. I said, where did you learn to stab like that? >> I didn't >> tell tell me the technique you used to stab. Was there anything significant the way you [snorts] stab him? >> Not really overhand. >> It wasn't like a stab in and out. Was there anything significant that you did when you went in and out with the knife? >> I didn't try and turn it or anything. I didn't try to be fancy. I just tried to be quick and I wanted to be quick >> cuz I didn't want them to >> It was It was quick. It was calculated what their us people, right? What the evidence people were telling us it was quick, confident, cool and very unique that it was a a stab twist out. Every one of them was almost military. They said whoever did this is either trained or done training on it or a military person assassin like a like a SEAL Navy Seal. >> So really I guess somewhere in the subconscious of my mind I've developed myself as just that assassin and with no training. >> Okay. Have you ever >> sheer mental imagination? Okay. Just >> Have you ever read literature on staff? How to stab? >> No. No. Never read literature on how to stab. I mean, >> I've heard I've heard different things from from different people, but nothing like that. >> Okay. >> Okay. As soon as you did it, >> how were you feeling then? >> Were you feeling >> after Jeff or after the whole >> All three after Okay, let's talk about Jeff. As soon as you killed Jeff, what were you thinking? How did you feel? >> Was it mission accomplished or >> No. Beyond the brink. >> Okay. >> Too far. And if I wanted to get away with it, it wasn't done. So I I went in and I I killed those two other people. >> After you killed them, how did you feel >> now? There are no more witnesses. >> Uncertain. I wasn't sure if I left fingerprints. Obviously, I didn't wear gloves. >> Were you trying to cover your tracks? >> I wouldn't have killed those other two people if I wasn't trying to cover my tracks, you know. done the right thing or what are you feeling right now? >> Not the fact you just confessed to us, but how are you feeling? >> Jeff Ryan was a bet. >> Yes. Does this go back to how you said he affected your life? >> The other two people were perfectly innocent. And I mean, I didn't know anything about them. >> Back to Jeff. Do you still feel you did the right thing? >> I'm trying to pick your brain. Do you How do you feel right now? Do you feel you did the right thing by killing Jeff? >> Well, here I am ready to go to prison. That's a hard question to answer. Do I feel like the world's a better place without Jeff Rya? >> Yeah, >> I'm uncertain. >> It's yet to be seen. >> Why did you pick Jeff >> to Reddit to kill? >> Yeah, you said he does drugs. He's a very bad person. >> He does drugs. It's that >> the drugs he sold and the things he did >> to some other people. He used to >> he's responsible for Mariah going to foster care. He's he used to treat Craig very poorly, you know, just make him stand certain ways and kick him over. I I've heard terrible things. >> So, you didn't like him? But there wasn't a doubt in my mind and I don't think there is a doubt in my mind >> that he wasn't >> I mean Alvin was the real target. Alvin made more sense. Alvin was currently still a bad drug dealer and I'd heard numerous bad stories about him as well. just about character stories about shooting at people from a lake. Uh different stuff like that. >> Well, you didn't beat me up, but I'm almost ready to ask you to shoot me. >> I'm serious. >> See, I'm doing good. My internal voice, I lost it. [laughter] >> Why should we shoot you? My son, I tell thee suth falsely. No gift is like to liberty than never live in slavery. >> I'm your slave at this point. I'm the slave of the government of Maine. Federal government depends on where I go. >> How do you feel about that? >> What's going through your head right now? I'd rather die. Honestly, to spend an entire life in prison. >> I mean, obviously the families need to know what happened. >> Mhm. >> They deserve an apology. It won't mean much. >> What do you want us to tell the family? >> What do you want us to tell the little boy's mother? that it wasn't personal, that it wasn't to hurt her, that I'm Sorry. What can you tell her? Honestly, >> I don't know. >> I can't bring him back from the dead. You can't send me to Hades. >> No, but you put him there. You killed his son. >> Tell him that he died bravely. >> It's the best thing you could tell him. Did he die bravely or just wants to talk? >> Not really. >> He didn't die bravely. >> You mentioned he was talking to you. >> He came back out of the woods. You said he he was running trying to get away from you. >> Jason. >> Jason and he came back out, right? >> What did he say when he came out of the woods? >> He just didn't understand and I wouldn't expect you would. >> Did you say anything to him? >> No. I told you I didn't talk. I know, but refresh your memory, you know. Did you say you're sorry? No. >> Subconsciously, yes. >> Yeah. But out loud. >> Out loud. No. >> Nor the nor the boy. You never say that to him. >> All right. Best possible outcome. I still have a lot of good nature to me and I could still be used for good purposes. gardening or otherwise, I still have a love for things that grow. I still have dreams. What do you see? I see a young smart guy with tremendous ability for a variety of things. [sighs] A big waste. Those other people would carry their memories. There's only one way to go. It's for the crown. [snorts] [clears throat] >> I wanted to be governor of the state. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I know a lot I know a lot about the state. I know how I could help. >> But all that's power and authority. What I know about authority is that authority was taken at a point a sword or gun. >> Okay, I guess we're ready. >> Is there anything else? I'm going to take your coffee. Um, you're going to arrest you for being a fugitive from justice. >> You're going to be charged with three counts of murder from the state of Maine. >> All right. Um, >> could I maybe finish my cigarette? >> No, it's fine. Okay. Okay. >> Good luck to you. May God have mercy on your soul. Fain Ormsby was arrested that afternoon on a fugitive warrant and returned to Maine after waving extradition. An Arustuk County grand jury indicted him on three counts of murder and one count of arson. He pleaded not guilty and later added a plea of not criminally responsible by reason of insanity. There was no plea agreement. He was tried before a jury in Holton and on the 13th of April 2012, he was convicted on all four counts. The jury rejected the insanity defense. On the 7th of June, Superior Court Justice E. Alan Hunter sentenced him to three life terms, one for each murder and 15 years for the arson. Robert Stout Senior pleaded guilty to hindering apprehension and to arson, and was sentenced to four years. A criminal background check on Jeffrey Ryan found no history of drug offenses. There was never any evidence that he was a drug dealer. The main Supreme Judicial Court upheld the convictions in 2013. Ormsby has petitioned to overturn them three times since. Each has been denied. If you value real police interrogations, critical moments and the investigative strategies that uncover the truth, subscribe to Evidence Lab Interrogation and turn on notifications so you don't miss the next interrogation. Until next time, stay observant because in the interrogation room, every word matters.