here would be be down here cuz ain't no way in the world you going to get between here >> Mhm. >> and on the seat. >> Mhm. >> Cuz just just her sheer size. Now you might be able to if you sit in that chair and you open your legs up because of your size. You'll be able to do that but I wouldn't be able to do it. >> Okay. All right. So >> Okay. So >> So I think she was on her had her arms like this. >> So she's maybe like this. >> Yes. But her head's up and she's not in the plastic at this point. >> No. >> And you're sitting on her. >> I was out there a little bit and I did see her sitting on her, but I couldn't see it. My chair. >> October 4th, 2017. Police arrived at a Florida home and found 9-year-old Durka Kindy dead. In the hours that followed, detectives questioned three people who were there. Grace Smith, James Smith, and Durka's cousin, Veronica Posey. Each gave their own account of what happened. But when detectives put those stories side by side, the details didn't line up. >> And so I don't know. >> Now, this is Siobhan that cut the knife. >> Okay. >> So, I don't know. I don't know. Somehow the thing got jammed. >> So she still wasn't able to use the knife to get out. >> So then she's going to bring the knife and threaten me with the knife as well as with a hammer. Now the hammer I know where she the hammer. We were taking a bed loose in her room cuz we needed to paint that room cuz they had cut up the mattress and all that stuff. >> Okay. >> Off this bed. So that all happened before her uh before uh Veronica got there. >> Okay. So she got a knife. What kind of knife was it? >> It's just a kitchen knife. >> Well, when you say kitchen knife, do you mean like a butter knife or a >> a black hand? >> What's your knife? How big is it? it. Let's It's like a steak knife. >> A steak knife. >> Like that kind of knife. >> Okay. Where do you keep that knife? >> In the kitchen. >> Where at in the kitchen? >> Well, normally I keep them up up top in the top thing in the kitchen. But But I don't know why that one was down. That one wasn't down. That one was down. So, I don't know where I don't know where she got it from, what they had used that night for. >> Okay. >> But I know where she got the hammer from. That was on her room cuz we were knocking that bed of loose to try to get it out of there to throw it away so we could paint that room. >> Now, the steak knife that she had. Where did she end up putting that >> on the table? >> On the kitchen table. No, dining room table. >> So, it's as far as you know, it's still on the dining room table. >> Yeah, it was there when we left. >> Okay. >> I remember seeing it there. And then where did the hammer end up going? >> In the chair besides me. I have the hammer. >> Okay. And that was left on the chair beside you. Where was that >> before she got it? It was in her room cuz we were knocking her bed loose, >> right? No, but I mean where's the chair that you were sitting in? >> In the living room area. >> Okay. So, she threatened you with a knife. Tell me what she did with the knife. >> Like this that said she was going to cut me. She was going to cut my neck off, take my car, and take my money out the bank. >> Okay. Did she How far away from you was she? >> Let's see. If I was sitting in my chair here, I just say a sofa length away. >> Okay. Um, did she make any movements towards you? Did you think she was being serious? >> Well, I mean, just like like that. But I didn't I didn't I didn't Well, I just put it this way. She might have been serious. I don't know. But I from my perspective, >> I didn't think that a child like uh 9 years old. No. I thought she might have been talking bluff like she talked bluff to hit me with a uh a broom or something cuz anytime something happens and you say okay you're going to go on timeout cuz you had this bad behavior she wants to pick up a broom. No I'm not kind of thing like that. So I really didn't think from her perspective >> that that was I just looked at her as a to be honest she was a 9year-old kid that was calling bluff >> right >> that's that's really if you want to know honestly that's how I looked at it. Okay. So, what about the hammer? Then what she did with the hammer? >> She had t she had she had the knife in one hand and the hammer in another one. And she was mimicking at me that she was going to cut me and hit me with it. >> Okay. >> And then I talked to her and I tried to tell her it's bad behavior. That's not something she should be doing. and she's going to get in trouble. You need to not do that, Siobhan. You need to calm down. Think about what you're doing. And so she put after a time of talking, talking, talking, she put the knife on the table and and her sister, I don't know if she gave the sister the hammer or she gave me the hammer, but I had I got the hammer. >> This is Grace Smith. In her interrogation, detectives begin by asking what happened inside the house before Veronica Posie arrived and why Durka was so desperate to get out. >> Okay. >> And I just put it I have a lift chair that sits next to me and I just put it down the side pocket of that chair so she wouldn't get it again. >> Okay. So that all happens and then what goes on after that? >> Okay. So then uh and she let me think, man. I can't I know that we said I was still trying to talk to her about her behavior. Oh, no. I started talking to her about the way she talked to her hairdresser, saying she hated her. She wasn't going into her. She wasn't going to let her do her hair. And I said, "Well, if you don't want your hair, then I'll just take my scissors and I'll just cut it. I'll just cut it all off and you just have a boy haircut." No, no, no. You're not going to do that. You're not going to do nothing to me. You don't You don't fit. Jumping up and down, tearing up uh plastic hangers, throwing stuff around cuz she said she really didn't want her to come over there cuz she didn't like her. And uh Javon is like if you tell her something that is negative to her then you don't like her, you hate her. >> Okay, >> that's her attitude. She just think her way is the right way. And so I told her that that's what I was going to do. And then I just called her cousin, asked if she come over. I said, "You don't have to rush. Just come when you're ready to come." And she all Javon did was just stamp around. >> So when you called Veronica to come over, did you tell her you needed help? >> Yeah, I did. >> Okay. I as I told her what she she asked me what was she doing. I told her what she was doing. And she said, "Well, I'll be over in 15 or 20 minutes." I said, "Well, don't worry about that." I said, "We're not going anywhere." I said, "The lock is on the door." I said, "We can't we I can't even get out of here." So, just take your time coming over. That's exactly what I said to her. Then when she got there, she couldn't even get in the front door. She had to come through the back door. >> Okay. >> And so then when she got there, didn't she came in asking Siobhan a question? What was she doing? Why was she carrying on? Javon started looking crazy. start acting with a attitude like uh she didn't care. She didn't uh she didn't care. So she she didn't she asked her why did she take the computer from the school? She still says she didn't she didn't take the computer. She just borrowed it. or why she took the phone. She wouldn't answer that. Or or she took the neighbor's cell phone. She wouldn't Shiron, she wouldn't answer no question. She just was the head shaking >> Mhm. >> kind. If you ever seen those kind, the same kind of way she was acting with the lady from uh that lady come from? She went from the excess border. No. Is that such a place as excess water? No. Some place that lady came out to investigate how I was taking care of them. >> Okay. >> That's the way she acted with her. >> Oh, DCF. >> Oh, I don't know. She's from DCF. She said she was from I have a number and name thing at home, but she just like I don't care. I don't care what you do. So the lady told her, you know, you're acting. When we had the incident of her calling her friend to have the mother pick her up, >> the lady said, "Well, you you you know what we can do? Separate you and your sister and send one of you to >> Before Veronica arrives, Grace describes the situation getting out of control." Durka had tried to leave the house, then used a knife to get past the locked door. Grace says she later threatened her with both the knife and a hammer >> and send one of you to Miami. But I don't care. Do what you want to do. don't matter to me. I said, "Well, you can take if it means she's going to be safe and she's not running off from here doing things she's not supposed to do, you can you can take them now." So, that's just it's just her negative just her attitude. >> And I knew that because of what her mother doing drugs, her father doing drugs, and they had mental problems, I knew that there was going to be issues. I'm not saying that there wasn't gonna I didn't know there was going to be issues, but she didn't like she didn't carry on every day. >> It it was things I thought that she would grow out of, not into, and not lead to something like this. I just >> Well, so you and you and Veronica were trying to talk to her about things that she' done wrong >> and how her behavior was bad. So what ended up leaving leading to this incident where she ends up well Veronica was going to spank her. And so that's what she did spank her and >> what did Veronica spank her for specifically? What was it that Siobhan did that Veronica was going to spank her for? her attitude care because she was because she was still talking back, >> okay? >> Saying what she wasn't going to do. She wasn't gonna be punished because I had told her just go to your room then. You don't have to be out here. I'm not going anywhere. You know, that kind of thing. So, just her attitude and talking to her about again trying to go over stop stealing cuz it's you're cute now cuz you're a kid. When you get to be a dump and you start putting your hands on things, that's jail time. That it it it's not cute anymore. So, you done stole a phone, you done stole a computer, you steady stealing, sending your sister to the store, stealing money from the house. That's just not a good thing. Kid thing. Yeah. So that trying to go through that and of course she had to walk around and twist your you know like that kind of thing like you old kind of thing. You don't know what you're talking about. >> Okay. >> So that was a deal. So then Veronica spanked her. >> Now where did Veronica spank her? >> Was it on her bottom? Was it >> Yeah, it was on her bottom. I would say that she was moving around. I when I when I saw her moving around, you know, like she you know, if you hit a kid, they don't want to be hit. >> So then she kick her leg or she twist her body or she twist her head or whatever, you know. >> So she was just going to take it, you know. >> So and and explain to me how this happens. Veronica's going to spank her. Does she grab her and hold her? Um, did she put her onto the floor? Did she put her on the couch and spake her? How did How did >> Well, the first thing she was doing was running. >> Okay. Siobhan was running. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> And then Don told, "I don't have to run after you. Come, come, come to me." And so she asked Javon to lay down. Just lay on the sofa. She spank her. Did you spank her one time? Did you spank her more than once? >> You mean did you did you hit her one once? Is that what you mean? >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> How many times do you think that she hit her? >> I don't really know. I wouldn't I I would say it's more than three times. I don't really know. I wasn't I mean I really wasn't concentrating on it. I was concentrating. What I wanted her to do was do better. That's what I was doing. >> Okay. So then when she was on the sofa, it's like uh so when she spanked her on the sofa, she jumped up. She was going to I don't even know where she was going to go. So Veronica told her to come to come here. And I think after a time then she went over there and she she went over there with Veronica and Veronica was in the chair and I if you saw the chair the chair is like a old It's like a old chair where uh it's got the big arms on it. >> Okay. >> And got the little cushion in the seat. >> Mhm. And normally if you if you go and sit in that chair, in order to sit in that chair, you have to kind of close your leg because ain't it ain't that much room. >> Okay. >> And Veronica is a big person. So I thought when she was sitting over there, she was and it has wooden arms on it that she wasn't directly sitting just right on top. I thought she was over her but not pressed down. >> Okay? Because when Javon says, "Well, I learned my lesson. I won't do it anymore. I'll behave." So, I thought she was getting up at that time. >> Mhm. >> And she didn't get up. And so, Veronica said to her, "Uh, come on, Veronica. Not not Veronica. Come on, Siobhan. Get up. Get up." And she would move cuz that's when I went over there to see why she wasn't moving. Then we called 911 and then we tried to do resuscitation, but I didn't think she was sitting. I didn't think she was sitting on her because she was moving. >> Okay. So, she spans her. >> Did she [ __ ] her with a bare hand or was it with an object? >> Well, she had my belt. >> Okay. So, she had her belt. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> She had my belt. >> Okay. And After that happens, Siobhan >> Grace says she called Veronica because she wanted help dealing with Durka's behavior. When Veronica arrived, Durka was still refusing to cooperate and the two began talking about what had happened. That conversation would soon lead to physical punishment. >> Siobhan, I guess, while it's happening, is Siobhan struggling to get away? Is she fighting back? What's she doing? >> Yeah, she's fighting back. That's what she said. That's what she said. That's why I said she was moving. >> Okay. >> Like I couldn't sit here and say, "Did she hit her on the butt?" Yeah, I saw her hit on the butt one time. But then when you hit her, she moved. She >> So maybe she was aiming for the butt but ends up hitting something else or something >> cuz she's move like if you hit her then, you know, she kicked like that, she like that. >> Okay. >> Or she'd be twisting her head and doing all that kind of stuff. So then she Siobhan jumps up and gets away. >> Yeah. On Yeah. Well, she got away when she was on the sofa. She jumped up. >> Mhm. >> And then they went over to the at the chair. >> Now, what happened at the chair? Did Siobhan decide to sit in the chair or did Veronica sit her down in the chair? I don't even know how that happened. Tell you the truth, that happened. I don't know. she set her down or not. I just know that she was over there and Veronica's over there and her legs were spread over her. >> Veronica's legs were spread over her. Okay. So, >> let's say this is the chair and I'm Siobhan. Was Siobhan sitting like this in the chair just like regular? Well, I think when she Well, I No, I don't remember. I think when she first went over there. Yeah, but she she turned I don't know. I don't know. I can't remember. She turned over or she turned over, but she she spanked her. She was spanked on her butt. So, I don't know how if Shiron turned over to be spanked on her butt. >> Okay. >> Or Veronica said, "Turn over and spank you on your butt." Okay. So, it at some point Siobhan ends up kind of like this in the chair. >> Yeah. >> Face face down into the chair. Okay. >> And I don't know if she was in Well, I don't know if she was >> maybe hanging off of it or some some sort of variation. >> She was down there, but I didn't I didn't see Veronica just sitting on her. I don't know how she could if you saw Well, you have to see the chair. She's too I thought she was s if like if that the chair you was in. >> Mhm. >> Then I thought she was on the arms of the chair cuz it's wooden arm chairs. I didn't think you just sitting on her like do you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm not giving you a picture. Am I >> Do you mean you think that maybe you think maybe that Siobhan was kind of laying across the chair? >> Mm- >> Okay. >> No. What I'm saying? I thought maybe Siobhan was here. >> Okay. >> I thought maybe she was down here and if you and with her she spread over her on these arms. I didn't think Veronica was down here. >> Okay. >> Do it making sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. You're thinking that you're kind of thinking that Veronica wasn't putting all of her weight on. >> Exactly. I thought she was on the arms of You look that chair. >> So she You're thinking she's just kind of like Veronica's bearing all of her weight on the arms of the chair. cuz I don't know how >> I don't know how she could spank I don't know how she could spank her butt >> cuz you can't uh >> you can't in that chair when I sit in that chair I'm sitting I don't know how hard they ever say it but when I'm sitting in that oh what you sitting here your legs are like this my legs aren't even open >> enough to sit down on like if I sit in that chair And I tried to spank you, you know, your head would be be down here cuz ain't no way in the world you going to get between here. >> Mhm. >> And on the seat. >> Mhm. >> Cuz just just her sheer size. Now you might be able to if you sit in that chair and you open your legs up because of your size, you'll be able to do that, but I wouldn't be able to do it. >> Okay. All right. So, does she still have Does Veronica still have the belt? I don't know if she had that. >> Did Did she still have the belt whenever she was trying to spank Siobhan in the chair? >> Yeah. >> And was she swinging the belt at her trying to spank her then? Okay. >> And what was Siobhan doing at that point? >> Moving kicking her. You know, it was like um her body know if I had it her and she was moving, kicking, moving, kicking, saying, "I learned my lesson. I won't do it no more. I learned my lesson." >> Okay. And at that point, was Veronica was Veronica sitting like this? >> That's what I thought. She was she was sitting. She was facing Veronica's facing outward with her bottom pushing against Siobhan or was Veronica facing forward? >> No, she Veronica was facing the way you were talking about. >> Okay. So, Veronica would have been like this >> on her. >> She would have been o I thought she was over her, not on her, >> right? >> Because she's she's talking. >> Okay. She's saying she's saying, "I'm not going to do it. I I learned my lesson. I'm not going to do it." And then when I heard her say, "I learned my lesson. I'm not going to do it." She even said she couldn't breathe. And I thought at that point she was getting up. >> You thought Veronica was getting up or Siobhan was getting up? >> Siobhan was getting up. Okay. Cuz that's the last thing she said. She said, >> "According to Grace, Veronica then began spanking Durka for her behavior. Durka fought back, kicked, and tried to get away. First on the couch and later near the chair. Then the interrogation reaches the moment detectives need to understand." >> She said, "Let me see. Did she even turn around and look at me?" That one time she turned around, looked at me. But I thought when she said, "I learned my lesson. I can't breathe." I'm sure she said that. I thought she was getting up at that time and then uh Veronica moved and she said well and I said Siobhan Siobhan and she didn't move and Rock said well she probably just faking. Then I got up to go over there to see what was going on and she still didn't move. So, we called and the person on the phone said, "Turn her on her back." And we did that. Well, she I had to do it one hand. I couldn't do it with them. We tried to do CPR to wake her up, but she one time she moved her arm. Yeah. I think that was her. Let me see what she was like. Yeah, that was her right arm. But she said what? >> Just tell me call if I help. >> Hello. Hey. All right. I got some pictures from whenever they were in your house earlier. >> Okay. I see you sitting in that chair right there. And then is that where you were kind of >> were you sitting there the whole time this was happening? >> Okay. So whenever Veronica is spanking her on the couch, >> you were still in that chair. >> Um whenever she Veronica and Siobhan went to the other chair, you were still in that chair. Okay. I'm just trying to get an idea where >> And that's see that chair next to it is where the hammer is. >> Oh, on that chair that's tilted up. That's where the hammer's going to be. >> Okay. And let me see. Is Is this the chair that you're talking about where it's >> Okay. All right. I just I like to get a picture in my mind what we're talking of. >> And then is that the couch that she ended up getting spanked on? >> No. Okay. >> Go back to the other one. >> Is it this red one? >> Mhm. >> Okay. All right. That's why I said that was between me and the chair. That couch sits between me and the chair. >> Okay. So, so out of the view here would be the chair with or the couch with the plastic on it over here. >> No, >> let me see. Let me let you kind of see where you at. >> It's Is it over here somewhere? Mhm. >> Okay. All right. >> Oh, hold that up chair. >> No, the other one where you got the brown chair >> there. See, here's the couch. That's another brown, >> right? >> That's the other brown chair. That's the brown couch with the other plastic. That's the chair with the plastic in the couch. >> But does the red couch sit kind of directly across from this couch with the >> No. Oh, okay. Mm- >> All right, I'll figure it out. >> Okay, I I'll figure it out. >> No, you can see it in the picture. Do the first picture of me. >> Just sit right in. >> Okay. >> See, it's a it's a raised level. >> Oh, okay. >> Okay. All right. Um, where did the belt come from anyway? >> Me? I have it. >> That's what I use to spank them. >> Okay. Where do you keep it normally? >> Well, I try to keep it in that raised chair next to me. >> Mhm. >> But they are always there because they move it and they hide it. >> So, where did it come from today? >> It came from It came from me today, I think. I think it came out the chair. Yeah, it came from me today. Yeah, cuz I think Rachel found it on the floor for me. Yeah, it came from me. >> Okay. So, Rachel found it on the floor >> and then you gave it to Veronica. >> Well, I didn't give it to her. I sent it over to her by Rachel or somebody. >> Oh, okay. And how often do you normally have to use the belt on either of the girls? >> I don't use it that often. What I use it to is to threaten them >> that they're going to get a spanking. But I don't I don't usually spank them that often. I first thing I try I like they take away their privileges or their snacks or something or put them on a pole for timeout, but I don't I don't spank them. And now I do threaten them, >> okay? >> And I'll tell them that probably once a day I'll tell them you're gonna get a spanking for that. You better stop that. I'm sure I say that at least once a day. But do I spank them? No. >> Can Can you clarify for me what you mean by put them on the pole? What does that mean? >> If you you pull that first picture up, >> I think um here's you sitting in the >> Okay, pull the one up to the chair. Maybe it's on. Hello. >> With Durka no longer responding, detectives begin reconstructing the room from Grace's memory. They use photographs to establish where she was sitting, where the other chair was, and where the punishment took place. Now they can examine the physical positions more closely. >> Hey Um, for now just uh W is fine. Okay, >> go to the right. >> All right. Thanks. All right, >> go to the chair with the plastic on. >> The chair with the plastic on. >> Yeah, it's there's columns in that house. Okay, sorry. I'm trying to Okay. >> We can't even see it in that one. >> Where is it? Is it going to be over here? >> It's right in front of this. >> Oh, >> right in front. >> Is that like an old cut off table or something? >> Mm-m. >> Oh, something that's actually a part of the house. >> You see a little piece of it sticking right there? It's a column. >> Okay. >> It's a column. >> So, what what happens with the column? Then they go on timeout like five, 10, 15 minutes. They stand. >> Okay. They just stand there. >> Okay. >> They don't get to watch TV or nothing. They stand with their back to the TV. >> Okay. >> That's their timeout spot. >> Okay. Um, and also I see your hands wrapped up. Is that an injury that you got today or is it something that's pre-existing? >> Oh, that's pre-existing. Okay. I think uh I think it >> this is Veronica Posey. In her interrogation, she describes what happened when she became involved in the struggle with Durka and detectives begin asking exactly what she did. >> Um how how much do you weigh? Just about >> a 320, I think. >> 320. Okay. All right. >> And I sat on her >> to try to restrain her and she kept kicking and bucking against the wall. And she said, "Cousin Veronica, I can't breathe." >> And you're sitting on her, right? >> Normally when I go there, I haven't been over there in a while because I told my I said, "Look, I end up in jail behind these kids because they're out of control." Because I the the state called me and I had them for about a week to give my honor a release because Siobhan had been cutting up so bad with them over there. I had her and Rachel both. They don't give me no problems. They They're good kids, but at home they're holy terrorists. >> Mhm. >> And I told my aunt, I said, "You know what? Short-term memory. So depended on them. And they can stop acting like they grown and run the house." I said, "So, it's best for me to stay home because they were very uh man manipulative." >> But I love them >> and they love me. Matter of fact, they came out the house Saturday night with grace to get some clothes where I had had them that week. And uh >> So, you just had them within the last week or two? No, it's been the in the early part of December, I think. >> Okay. >> Or maybe it was in the summer for a week ahead. >> Okay. >> Because they had walked away from home and uh Grace didn't know where they were and uh she had called a social worker to come get them and they didn't have placement for him at that time. So just to give them a break and get them out the house, they called me and asked me to come get them because they knew that I would, you know, be good to them and they'll give me no problems. >> It's just when they get home, but all of a sudden Siobhan from what I could hear from my aunt was defined everywhere she went. uh stealing from the school, getting disrespectful with the principal, and they was telling me she uh talked to the teacher like she was a dog yesterday. And I told you when she was over there Friday night, I said, "Baby, check your attitude. Your attitude stink. You need to check it." Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. It's always yes ma'am and no ma'am to me. They don't get disrespectful from me because I have I told them I said I'm gonna spank you. >> You're not gonna run over me. You're not gonna talk to me no anyway kind of way. You're only eight and n years old. You got to respect your elders. I said because you know James and Grace are handicapped. So, uh, when she called me, like I said, I ate a banana muffin and yellow and took my medication and I went over there. So, they tried to open the front door, but they couldn't. >> I would to try to get out, they said the night before cuz my aunt told her she was going to walk behind. >> Don't worry about it. I'll walk around to the back door. Open the back door. Veronica now describes her role in the struggle with Durka. She explains how she tried to restrain her while the situation continued inside the room. Detectives then begin focusing on what Veronica was doing during those moments and what happened as Durka continued fighting back. >> Then of course, hey cousin Veronica, how you doing? Blah blah blah blah blah. I said, Siobhan, that's it. Grace told me she got rid of whoop you and you ran again. I said what I tell you running away from James and Grace. I told her you have to respect them. They take care of you. They buy you clothes. You get the best of the best. And yet you talk to them like they're nothing. And so uh I proceed to try to restrain her the grace to hold her. But of course, I've had two back surgeries and a rotary cup uh surgery a year ago. So I asked James, I said, "James, help me restrain off the grace." Grace hit over at the belt about I don't know, maybe 10 weeks or something like that. >> Now, was James there? >> Yes. >> So James was helping you >> restrain her. >> Restrain her. >> Yeah. And so we released her. I said, "Now, Siobhan, you been over here. Grace, Grace, and James was there, and he was telling me what she had done." >> First of all, she took a knife when Grace locked the door last night so she could unlock the door to get out so she wouldn't get a whooping. >> Okay. >> And part of the knife is stuck in the lock. Then Grace was telling me about the knife and the hammer and James was talking about how she was talking back at him and how he got she had got into Grace face and she's being really abusive and this is not the first time. >> Mhm. >> And so I said I'mma whoop your butt. So, I had the little ruler with the little light pipe on my like legs and I hit you on the butt and uh she started bucking and fighting and running and stuff and we were trying to restrain her and uh she was jumping across the couch just just like uh I'm the boss here. >> Mhm. >> You have no control here. >> So, I said, "Okay." So I uh called I said I called her by the shirt and we were at the chair and uh I said sit down and she wouldn't sit down. She was bucking and rolling and everything. So I said okay Siobhan get on your knees cuz she was in front of the chair. He like holding on the wall to keep from sitting down. >> Okay. >> So I said get down on your knees. just just fall on your knees. And when she went down on her knees, I had an opportunity to restrain her. And I sat on her >> to try to restrain her. And she kept kicking and bucking against the wall. And she said, "Cousin Veronica, I can't breathe." I said, "Oh, Siobhan, you playing?" "Yes, you can." I said, "You have room to raise your head." And I'm not on your whole upper part. I'm just sitting on your on the you know on the rear end of you. >> You got room. So she said I can't breathe. So I sit there for a moment and she stopped bucking. So I said I got up. I said get up. I thought she was playing. I said Javon get up. She didn't move. I saidon get up. I said, "Stop playing. You're not going to get us get up." And she didn't move. So then I asked Grace, "Do you have some ammonia?" Cuz I put it under her nose if the heat had got to something >> in the midst of struggling, you know, to bring her back. And she said no, she had vinegar. I put some vinegar on a paper towel. She didn't move. So, I uh asked for a bottle of water and I pou some on the back of her neck. She's still in move. So, I started feeling for a post. >> I said, "Y'all help." Cuz I I couldn't pick her up. She's too heavy. >> And so, I said, "Y'all help me." We tried to pick her up from the chair. I said, "Grace, we need to call 911. I'm not getting, you know, I didn't get nothing. I I said, "We need to call 911." And her phone was right behind me. So I called 911. And so the operator told us to turn them over, turn her over. So me and James and Grace, we turned over on the floor. And then he told me how to do chest compressions, but she didn't come around. And that's what happened. >> Okay. It was it wasn't intentionally. I love them and they love me, >> but they would give me a respect, but they wouldn't give my aunt and uncle. >> You could take them anywhere normally and they'll do fine, but at home they were destructive. Um, first of all, I know that you're hearing this information from Grace, but when did they say that this stuff happened with the knife and the hammer? >> The night before and the morning part of the day, I think. >> Okay. So, it's something that happened last night and kind of continued over until this morning. >> Yes. >> Okay. Did Grace ever tell you exactly what happened with the knife and the hammer? She told me Siobhan tried to cut her with the knife. >> Okay. >> And uh I can't remember what Jane Jane said something about the knife, too. >> Okay. >> But I can't remember what his part was about the night. >> Okay. So, when you got there, you went in the back door and how long were you there before you started >> anything? trying to discipline her. >> I walked in the door and I was talking to her >> for maybe 15 or 20 minutes. >> Okay. So, you were trying to talk some sense into her. >> Yeah. >> And what was she doing? >> Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. >> Detectives now slow the story down and go through Veronica's account step by step. They ask about her position, where Grace was sitting, and where James was during the struggle. Each detail helps establish how the three adults were positioned while Durka was being restrained. >> She always does talk to her. >> Okay. >> But the minute James the Grace say something that's not true. Uh uh I didn't do that and you this I said they're lying on they take care of you baby. So, how did it go from she's being respectful to you to spanking her? How did how did it get to that point where we've now we can't talk anymore now? It's got to be >> Well, we were restraining her for grace because Grace was the one that was punishing her. >> Okay. and she was bucking against Grace and she didn't she refused to cooperate with with Grace to get the the whooping Grace was going to give I say whooping a little light built. >> So what was the punishment for? What was the weapon going to be for? Grace was getting on her about being talking to her so disrespectful about the knife, about the tip of the knife in the door knob. I think the hammer. I don't know. I >> But it was kind of for everything. >> It was for everything. >> And that was the punishment that she was going to carry out. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, you said it was a belt. >> Yes. >> And where did the belt come from? >> It's gracious. >> Okay. And where was Grace? >> Standing at the end of the couch. >> Which couch? The one with the plastic or the red couch? >> The red couch. >> Okay. So, uh, Siobhan, was she on the couch or was she standing? >> When I told her to lay down so Grace could flip her. >> Okay. She was laying down, but in the process of Grace hitting her, she jump up and she start kicking and bucking and refusing the punishment Grace was given. >> Okay. >> So then that's when I stepped in. I had spoken to her about getting expelled from school and prior to there's enormous amount of money that Javon has taken from my aunt in jury and >> right she told me about that >> all of that stuff and so I had told her I said your mom when I see you I'mma beat your butt you no better to get spilled from school why did you take school property remove the serial numbers and then take it back to school and then when the principal try to talk to you I understand you got plenty of attitude >> cuz I asked Grace I said Grace let me go with her I don't want to say a word I just want to see in the sit in the room and check her attitude >> cuz she would correct it if I'm sitting there I don't have to say a word but this idea I'm in the It's going to be a whole another attitude, right? >> Okay. >> And so, uh, I said, "I told you I was going to get you for that." >> Okay. So, she was on that that chair. It's just a little oneperson chair, plastic covering on it. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, she was, let's say this is that chair. Would it be fair to say that she got in the chair and she >> uh Yes. >> Okay. So, let's say it's exactly against the wall like that chair was. >> It's not exact. That >> is that about right? >> That's about right. >> Okay. So, she's kind of like this maybe >> over the top of the chair. >> Did she have her knees in the chair? >> No, she was standing up. >> So, she was just standing and she's trying to brace herself against the wall maybe >> to get away. Yes. >> Okay. >> And I said, "Okay, Siobhan, you can't go nowhere." I said, "Drop to your knees." She said, "I can't." I said, "Yes, you can." I said, "Drop to your knees." And she did. So when she when she dropped to her knees, did her knees go onto the chair or did they go onto the floor? >> I think they went to the floor. I can't remember cuz I kept she kept saying I can't. I said, "Yes, you can. Yes, you can." And when I said drop to the floor and she saw she wasn't going no further, she >> I can't remember her knee going into the chair. I don't remember. All I know is that she went down on the knees. >> Okay. So, you think you kind of think she was on the floor at that point with her knees like maybe this she dropped to her knees? How? >> Why couldn't she get on her knees? Why was she saying she couldn't get on her knees? >> She didn't want to. >> She just didn't want to. >> She didn't want to get on her knees. >> Did you guys force her down onto her knees? Did you guys maybe >> kick her no >> kick her feet out from under her or anything like that? >> No. Okay. >> No. None of that. But the thing is is that there's a pole. I don't know what you call them. >> Like a column. >> A column. >> Okay. >> Right in front of that chair. >> Mhm. >> So she was kicking against the column and raising up and and and and I couldn't get a grip on her, you know, to calm her down. >> So would the column be here or would the column be here? Cuz I haven't been in the house, so I don't know. It would be in front of the chair. >> Okay. So, it would So, this is the chair. Let's just say this is the chair. So, it's going to be somewhere here. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, she was sort of using the column to >> kick and and push her body. >> That's one reason why she didn't kneel in the chair. I don't think cuz she was pushing against the wall. >> Oh, >> you see what I'm saying? >> So, maybe she was kind of like suspended in the air a little bit. >> Yeah. >> From the back of the chair. She wasn't on the wall. She was holding on to the back of the chair. >> Uhhuh. >> That's what happened. >> So, how from that point did you end up >> sitting on her? >> Sitting on her >> uh when she went down on her knees >> and she was bucking and flipping in the chair and stuff. I said, "Siobhan, stop. I want to get up." I'm said, "Siobhan, stop." I said, "You're not cooperating with us." So, she kept on bunking. I said, "Okay, I know what to do. I'll just sit here and restrain you till you decide >> to calm down." And that's what happened. >> Okay. When you sat down, how was she positioned >> on her on her knees with her face up? Well, she wasn't down into the plastic. >> Okay. >> Her head was up. >> Okay. >> And she said, "I can't." I said, "Shuk, kid." I said, "Your mom, you talking to me." And I was saying, "Well, why'd you do this to me?" She was answering me. We was having a conversation. >> Uhhuh. >> She was answering, "Bucking, >> why did you talk to her like that?" I said, "She's good to you. Why would you tell her you hate her? Because she's correcting you for something you did. because she along with me, we don't really conversate with each other, but I would pick them up from the beauty shop sometime. And she would tell me that she had to get with him about something. >> And and she would say I said, "But why'd you do that?" Uh, did you do that? Yes. That's the way she was talking. >> Okay. So, she's answering you. You're asking her these questions. She's answering you. So you said that and I'm going to demonstrate again just just I want to make sure that I've got it clear in my mind >> how this happened. >> So she's on her knees the best that you can remember she's on her knees. >> Yeah. >> And she's What are her arms doing? Are her arms on the chair or is she still fighting pushing away? >> She her arms because she's behind me. Her arms are probably in the chair because she's um that was before I sit down. >> Okay. >> To stop her >> stop her from uh pushing against the pole and bucking and trying to kick us. >> Uhhuh. >> And uh do the position again. >> Okay. So >> So I think she was on her had her arms like this. >> So she's maybe like this. >> Yes. But her head's up and she's not in the plastic at this point. >> No. >> And you're sitting on her, right? >> I sit on her about that time. >> About this time is when you sit to keep her from >> buffing >> doing anymore. Okay. And you're at this point you think she probably hasn't moved. Um would that be safe to say? Did her arm start flaring around or anything? Did she start hitting you or anything? >> No, she didn't hit me or anything. It was just her feet and her bucket. >> She didn't moving. You can feel her squirming. >> Yeah, she was squirming. Even when I was sitting and trying to hold her down, she was >> okay. >> She was bucking up and down and you know, she's on her face in the chair and instead of just calming down so we can talk to >> James gives detectives his own account of what happened. He says Durka was kicking so he held her by the shoulders but only gently. After Veronica finished spanking her, James says he believed the punishment was over and went back toward his room. >> Talk to her. She uh I remember she's lean and she's in she's on her knees in the chair prayer position >> and she's still bucking with her back and her butt >> to try to get away. >> Okay. And you said you had this conversation with her. So, I mean, you were sitting there for how long would you say? >> Maybe five or six minutes, I guess. >> Five or six minutes carrying on this conversation. >> And I She said I said, "Well, and this is this keep ringing in my ears because my baby gone." She said I said, "Your mom, why do you do what you do?" I don't know. I said, "Well, you don't do it with me. Why do you do it? You're my cousin. I love you." I said, "Boo crap, you don't love me." >> Just the way we were talking. >> It wasn't no screaming, no yelling. It's just a freak accident. I just I >> So whenever whenever she finally said she couldn't breathe, >> that's when I moved. >> Okay. >> She said it two times. She said, "Cousin Veronica can't breathe." I said, "Von, stop praying. You're just trying to get up from here cuz you can't cuz you can't move." >> Mhm. >> You're trying to speak. You know, see, I calmed down so her legs had stopped bucking. >> Okay. >> I said, "You're just trying to get up from here." So, because I'm controlling you right now. >> She said, "No, I can't breathe." I said, "Oh, you playing. Stop it, girl." So, I sit there for a minute and I got up. >> Okay. And that's when you realized >> that she was not moving. >> That's when I realized she was not moving. >> And when all this is going on and you're sitting in the chair, were you were you putting all your body weight like towards the chair or >> towards the end of the chair? >> Towards the end of the chair. >> Yeah. Where her butt was. >> Okay. not just lean because she couldn't. If I did that, she wouldn't be able to breathe. She wouldn't be able to move. I was just trying to control her and I had my feet on the floor. So, my complete weight was not on her. >> Okay. >> It was just enough to reframe her from the bucking and the the way she was popping her back, you know, like pushing against it cuz her hands was in the chair. She was pushing her body up against me. That's what she was doing. >> Okay. Um, so you're saying that you were kind of maybe not putting all of your pressure on >> on >> her. So, do you kind of feel like maybe you were doing like this? Like maybe a little bit of a squat or something? >> Yeah, more of a squat, but not complete. You know, like this. I'll show you how I was doing. I was like, "Okay, Siobhan, cut it up. like that. Not complete body weight cuz she couldn't take it. She's a little she's a little girl. I don't care even how heavy she was. She's still a little girl. She could take all that pressure. >> But because I was she had room enough to wiggle and move around, >> but I had her refrain so she couldn't move. >> And when this is going on, tell me where um Grace is. >> Grace is in a chair. She was in her chair. >> Yeah, she was sitting at the end of the couch. >> Okay. >> In her chair. >> Where is James? >> He was either sitting down at the end of the table or standing up, >> but he was right there watching all of it. >> Yes. >> Okay. Did James ever strike her with anything? >> I know they struggled, but I can't remember him hitting her. >> Okay. because you know I had I was busy trying to hold him myself so I couldn't really pay attention to James. >> It was like uh uh he wanted to hit her right now and I said no don't hit her. >> What did he say? >> He said I'll punch you. He said, "That's why when Grace asks me to restrain them and she gets disrespectful like she wants to hurt me and see he's not well himself." >> So to keep his blood pressure down and stuff, he refrains from a lot of what's going on in the house. >> I hate to ask you this question, but it is kind of relevant. I know I hate when people ask me, but um how how much do you weigh? Just about >> a 320, I think. >> 320. Okay. All right. >> This is James Smith. In his interrogation, he gives detectives his account of the struggle and explains what he says he did before leaving the room. >> Kick him, brother. I just held it down by the shoulder gently, not real hard, >> cuz you know, a big guy like me, you don't really have to hold anybody real hard. Yeah, you're kind of >> So, and one reason, well, I held her, but then, you know, I I don't like having to discipline kids. I really don't. >> Mhm. >> But, so after that, I thought it was over with, you know. So, I go after I held her and Veronica got through spanking her, I thought it was over with. So, I went to my room. I could tell you. >> Okay. So, when you're holding her down by the shoulders, >> was that when Veronica was hitting her with the belt or when Grace was hitting her with the belt? >> Uh, Veronica was hitting her with the belt when I was lightly holding her by the shoulders. >> Okay. Lightly holding her, >> right? >> Okay. I didn't put any pressure on, but I didn't want to hurt cuz she was kicking >> a while. But I was in back, so I wouldn't get >> Okay. >> So, I just firmly held her cuz if you don't, she runs. She has run out the house, >> right? >> Before. >> Yeah, she's a runner. >> Yeah, we have had the cops come out for that, too. >> Okay. Um, so what made you go back to your room? Did it seem like it was resolved or? >> Yeah, that's what I thought it was. >> Okay. How did you How did you think it was resolved? What was the signal to you that everything was fine at that point? >> Usually it is fine at that point because she has spanked her before and then that's it. You know, I I >> or Grace. >> No. Veronica. >> Okay. >> Because they try to just sometimes just walk all over my wife. So, >> yeah. >> And she's disabled. She She's 69. I'm 62. We're both retired. >> Anything going to be like this? >> Yeah. So, >> but I thought it was done because normally it is. Well, what did Siobhan do that made you think that it was revol resolved? Did she have a change of attitude? Did she stop fighting suddenly? >> She just stopped fighting and set up. So, I just assumed that Okay, then. And I don't need to be out here. >> Did you ever see Veronica with a ruler? >> A ruler? I haven't seen her with a ruler. >> Okay. Today, did you see her? is here today with a ruler. >> Okay. Have you ever known her to use a ruler to carry out discipline? >> Yeah. Usually, it's just been the belt. >> Okay. >> As far as I have seen her discipline. >> Okay. When's the last time you think that Siobhan was disciplined with a belt or any object that might leave a mark? I can't really say. I don't I I've I haven't seen any marks. >> Okay. Well, maybe you haven't seen marks, but when's the last time you know that she was disciplined with some sort of object like a belt or a whip or anything that might could possibly leave a mark, even if it didn't? >> I've only seen the belt. >> Okay. When's the last time you saw it? today. >> But that's before I went tomorrow. >> Before today, when's the last time you saw her be disciplined with a belt? >> It's been a while. >> How long is a while? >> Um, a couple months. >> Okay. Um, so you say you held her down. and you think it's resolved, so you get up and go back to your room >> because she sat up. So, I didn't think anything else was going on. So, I like to keep my door closed cuz if you don't, the kids come in your room. You know, you could be napping, watching TV or whatever. So, I I didn't think it was no cause for me to remain up there. >> Okay. So, you go back and you shut your door. >> Mhm. >> And then what? Then I hear my Then I hear somebody say, "James, you better come out here." I think it was my wife. I'm not quite sure about who said it. And there the incident had been over with. And so I I don't know what was going on at that point. So they they look like they were trying to resuscitate her or something like that, but I don't I I didn't get close enough >> to actually >> I mean so you know you're the last person that I'm talking to, >> right? >> So I've already gotten the other stories about what happened. Okay. So, I'm having a little issue here as far as information on where you were when all this was happening. Okay. I'm getting information that you were there while uh Siobhan was on the chair and Veronica was on her. Detectives then pressed James about what he actually saw during the struggle, including where he was, what he heard, and what happened before he left the room. >> Who told you that? >> Well, I'm not going to sit here and tell you who told me, but I've already talked to the two other people involved. And that's the information that I've got is that you were there. And if you're there, it's it is what it is. You know, we can work around it and we can work with you on it. But I don't want you to sit here and try to minimize. >> No, I'm not. >> What you saw? >> I'm not. This is a serious offense. I understand that. >> Yeah, >> she's no longer here. I understand that. But I wasn't out there when that happened. Whatever happened, I I don't know. >> Okay. I mean, did you when you came out, you just saw Siobhan? >> Yeah. >> On the chair. >> Well, they had got her off the chair, I guess. Grace and Veronica, and they're trying to do CPR on her chest. And then that's when my wife Grace said, "Well, let's wait a moment and see if we can bring him back or revive or whatever term you want to use." >> And so they went a couple more minutes and that didn't work. Then they called 911, explained to them all. >> So when you came out, they were actively trying to give her CPR on the floor. >> Yeah. >> Okay. That's not what they told me. >> What did they tell you? They said they they asked you to help move her off of the chair. And if that's what it is, look, I want you to just be honest with me here because it looks bad if you're trying to say things that aren't necessarily true. If other people are already saying that that's what happens, it looks bad if we don't get the real story from you. That's what I'm trying to do. >> I did come out and move her off the chair to the floor. >> Okay. But the damage would have been done, >> right? >> Okay. >> Yeah. And I mean, moving her off the chair >> to the floor so they can turn her over and see what they can do. >> Okay. >> That's all it did. >> But whenever you came out, >> they >> Veronica was still sitting on her. >> No, she was standing up. I guess she had been sitting on her. I don't know. I went out there. >> I mean, did you ask what happened? >> Yeah. >> And they said what? >> She said she sat on for a little while. What was I supposed to do at that point? Well, I mean, you see where I'm having a little bit of a problem with what you're saying versus what they're saying. It's conflicting. And if I've got the conflicting statements there, I tend to believe two people's statements against one person's statement. You know what I mean? It's kind of one of those things where if two people that are separated are saying the same thing and then this person's saying one thing, what else am I supposed to do? So, they're saying that you were in there while Veronica was sitting on Siobhan. And if that's what happened, that's just what happened. But I don't want you to make up little stories that's going to hurt you, you know? I just need to know what you saw. I'm really too old for this, but Oh, man. Jesus. I was out there a little bit and I did see her sitting on her but I couldn't see it. My chair is my chair's here. There's desk here. It was piled full of bugs. I had to get up and do like that. >> Okay. And that's that's understandable. You had stuff in your way. You were sitting there in the chair. But I thought about it and they tell her to get up off the child, but I didn't do it. That's that's I guess that's unable. >> Okay. So, what made you say, "Veronica, get off of her." What was happening to make you say that? >> I didn't say it. That's what bothers me. >> You didn't say it. >> No. >> Okay. What? Not that I wanted her to continue to sit on her because that's a little child. >> Yeah. >> But detectives continue questioning James about what he saw before leaving. They go back over his position, what was happening during the struggle, and whether he understood that the situation had actually ended. >> I guess I I just didn't do it. soul for that. I am very sorry. You just don't know cuz I love the little child. She will know more. >> What was Siobhan doing while this is all happening? >> I guess she was saying that she couldn't breathe or something like that. I I I didn't hear it completely to be honest with you. >> Was Siobhan speaking in a voice was it like a whispering sound and that's why you didn't hear it? >> It was low. >> It was low. >> Yeah. But it sounded like a gurgle sound, too. >> A gurgle sound. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> But that's all I can tell you. Okay. And what was Veronica doing? Did she continue to sit there or did she get up or did she >> she got up >> look around and check or >> I guess she sat there for a while. >> How long would a while be? >> I can't tell you that. I don't know. >> Okay. Can we can we try to guess? Would it would it be a minute, five minutes, 10 minutes? >> More towards like 10 >> 10. So this whole incident of Veronica sitting on Siobhan, you're thinking maybe was more like 10 minutes. >> That's what I'm thinking. >> Okay. >> If that makes sense. Do you know any idea how long from the time that Siobhan was making the gurgling sound and the time that Veronica stood up and you realized that she was unresponsive? How long was that? >> Two minutes after she made the gurgling sound, Veronica stood up like I suppose. >> You you would think something like two minutes. >> Yeah, two minutes. And then she wasn't responsive. She was. >> What do you see? Look closely at their stories. Grace, Veronica, and James each gave detectives their own account of what happened. What do you think really happened? Was it truly an accident or is something being left out? Drop your theory in the comments. And for more interrogation breakdowns, like the video and subscribe to Verdict Interrogation.