may be appointed for you. It says that I've read the statement of my rights shown above and I understand what my rights are. I do not wish to talk to a lawyer for advice. I understand and know what I'm doing. No promises or threats have been made to me and no pressure of any kind has been used against me. This is for the consent to search of What kind of phone do you have? >> Samsung. >> Do you know what kind? >> Uh Note 8. >> And it's just going to be for digital data. And if you don't have any questions and you agree to it, you can sign right there. And we'll take you down there to go grab it and bring it back up here and >> September 8th, 2017. Pensacola, Florida. 8:00 in the morning, 33-year-old private investigator Taylor Wright hands her best friend a cashier's check worth $34,000. 9 hours later, Taylor disappears. No call, no message, nothing. By Friday, that $34,000 zero check is sitting in her best friend's personal bank account. 2 months later, investigators uncover a human skull buried on a farm owned by that same woman's family. One bullet hole in the forehead. And now there's a problem because 3 weeks after, Ashley McArthur is arrested, detectives sit across from her husband, Zach, a former sheriff's deputy. He says he didn't know about his wife's bank accounts. He says he didn't know about the farm and he says he didn't know anything about the skull. For a while, he sounds convincing until the detective asks him a question that leaves almost nowhere to hide. "Is there anything at all that would tie you to this?" And Zach doesn't panic. He doesn't argue. He doesn't ask what the detective means. He smiles. And that's the moment you need to remember. Because in an interrogation, sometimes the most dangerous moment isn't when a suspect breaks down. It's when they hear a question and suddenly realize the detective may know far more than they're saying. Tonight, we're going inside Zac MacMathers interrogation and we're going to break down what happened word by word. >> What's up, buddy? >> Hey, buddy. >> Hi, buddy. >> Hey there. Barnes. Nice to meet you. >> All right. Hi. Well, I appreciate you coming in here. Obviously, you know what this is all about. You know, we're trying to get you in and out as quick as we can. I know you got things to do. He's got things to do. >> Yeah, I actually have to be in court at 1:30. So, that if we get past that, I'll figure something out. >> Okay. >> We were late, so. >> All right. Well, just um I lose track of time, just let me know when >> I know. We >> give me a little heads up. >> Okay. >> Um you know, we're going to kind of go over just what all information you may have for us to help this situation out. >> What do you mean? >> Um so, I'm just going to jump right on into it. Um can you tell me how you came to know Taylor? >> Um through working PI cases. >> Okay. And when was that that you met her? >> I don't know. It's probably been over a year, maybe. Um she she was working She and I both were working with Greg Sievers. >> Mhm. >> Um we worked some cases together and then I worked maybe a couple for her cuz I >> Out of Pensacola here? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I mean, well, we worked in Santa Rosa and where you know, where wherever the cases were. That's it. We just became friends. >> Okay. And in that time, did you guys ever have a fallen out or >> Never. Um I From from doing this job for so long, I just Taylor was not the She just wasn't Like, I would just pick her up pick up little lies from her. So, and it just stuff just didn't start seeming right and and uh she would disappear for days that you couldn't get her on the phone. Greg and I would try to call her, you couldn't get her on the phone. And um so she she'd come over to our house every now and then. She met my wife, they became friends. And um I mean longer than than normal. So, I started figuring out that maybe maybe she had a drug problem. I don't associate with that. I'm still trying I'm still trying to get on with an agency. I don't I don't go around that. I For years I didn't talk to my own brother because of the lifestyle they live. Like I just don't I mean you know me. I I don't associate with with people that So, I cut ties with her. I took her off my Facebook and I quit talking to her. >> Okay. When's the last time that you think that you talked to Taylor? >> Um I remember I know when I was in DC in April or March. Ash and I were in DC and she's she was wanting to go in our house to either do a report or print something out and I was like, "No, you know, you're not going in our house." I mean just I just had bad feelings about the girl. Something um and I I just didn't I didn't want to I didn't want her you know, going in our house if we wasn't there and and uh so >> At first, there's nothing obviously dramatic about the conversation. She's answering questions. The detectives are listening and the room appears relatively calm. But there is something underneath that calm. Listen carefully to how she explains this part of the story. The answer sounds straightforward until you notice what she chooses to explain and what she leaves untouched. And that's exactly where this interrogation becomes interesting because detectives don't need to accuse her yet. They just need her to keep talking. >> And And Ash is the kind of person that will go out of her way to help anybody. Um I know Ash was helping her move from her girlfriend's house, you know, or move from one girl's house to another girlfriend's house and I know they stayed in touch like that. And I told Ash just, you know, just don't bring her around me cuz I don't I'm trying to get her out of my Just I thought she had a drug problem. Um Ash kind of thought she >> Did you ever say anything though that >> carried a bag. She had a little bag that she just kept with She just guarded with her, and I just knew it something wasn't right. Um I knew Um have y'all talked to to Jess Wood at all about her? >> I have not. >> They were hanging out for a little bit. >> How far back does that go? >> Uh just before Jess started dating this new girl. So, um and I know that there was a night that that Taylor was staying at Jess's house, and she just disappeared for hours. And me and Jess both were like, "Something's up with her." I mean, [snorts] something is just wasn't right with the girl. Um and we just didn't trust her. Me and Jess were like, "Man, you know, Jess was like, 'Yeah, we we don't need to be around her.'" So. >> Well, do you know how recently Ashley and Taylor were still friends, hanging out, talking on the phone, whatever? >> I thought they were trying to help I remember Taylor She said Taylor moved used the her her box truck to move stuff and just ended up leaving leaving her belongings in the truck. And I was like, "When is she going to come get all the stuff out of your truck, you know?" And it was still I think it's out of the girlfriend's house from what Ash told me for a little bit until they took it to the to their office on Base Boulevard. >> Okay. And that was kind of around the time that she ended up going missing? >> Yeah. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, some around then. >> Now, when did you find out about that? >> That she went missing? >> Mhm. >> Uh when the city come by, and they were like, "Hey, that she's been missing." And they said that Ash was one of the last ones to to be around her. So, they just wanted to come do a walk-through. I was like, "Come on in." And I told them then, I was like, "Man, I I think the girl's got a drug problem. She you know, she's she may be off somewhere doing some dope or whatever. I said, but I said, she's not quite honest and and I think she's got a drug problem, you know. >> Was that patrol that came by or detective or whatever? >> you know, Will Hayden uh big I can't remember his >> Gigliotti? >> Yeah, Gigliotti. And they're super nice guys. Um I love Will Hayden. He's a good dude. Um they come through, walk through the house and and uh then Ash left with him to go get a statement. And that was it. >> Okay. Um Was that when she ended up they took her phone or whatever? >> I think so. >> Okay. >> she volunteered and gave it to him or whatever. >> Okay. >> Do you know if Ashley and Taylor were ever in a romantic relationship to your knowledge? >> girls. Ash did not like girls. But now Taylor Taylor said, I mean, I know she was married and I've heard her say she dated dudes, but I never saw her nothing, but all she talked about was girls. That's it. Um So no, they no, no, no. I Ash didn't She didn't She didn't like girls. I mean, Ash I mean, no, she no. >> Now the suspect begins building her version of what happened. And this is where investigators have a choice. They could challenge her immediately or they could let the story develop. They choose the second option. That matters because the more comfortable someone becomes explaining their version of events, the more details they naturally commit themselves to. For now, she appears to have control of the conversation. But the detectives are quietly collecting pieces, and eventually those pieces can be put back together. >> I went to the bank yesterday to pull my statement. I know I ate lunch at the seafood place at 9 Mile in Pine Forest. I ate there, and I remember eating by myself, and I remember Ash not being able to make it because she was tied up with work. So I ate by myself. Um I don't know if it was before or after that I went by a friend's house, Jennifer Rollins. Um >> Back up just a sec. How how did you end up pay pay with cash or did you use a card? >> Oh, I don't know. my debit card? That's generally what I use is that one. That's the only thing I got is that debit card. >> And and and who is that through? >> Wells Fargo. >> Okay. So you were to use your debit card there? >> Yeah, okay. >> Now, what were you doing up in that area? >> I mean, I I eat there all the time. I mean, I I'm from up that way, so I know people everywhere up that way. Um, but I did go to by Jennifer's house, I think before before that. >> Now, Jennifer >> Jennifer Rowland, yeah. >> And you think that was before lunch? >> I think so, yeah. >> Is that just a friend of yours? >> Yeah. >> Do you have a phone number for her or anything? >> Okay. Um, how long do you think that you were with Jennifer? >> Maybe an hour. And I I I don't remember. Maybe maybe an hour. >> Now, where's her house at? >> Off of the Bowman. Go down Bowman. I think it starts with a W. I can't remember. I mean, I can remember how to get there, but >> How do you get there? >> Um, you turn off 9 Mile. >> Mhm. >> Go north, and then you go up a couple streets, take a right, and then you go to Is it Waldrip? It might be Waldrip. Do you remember? >> I would Waldrip. >> Waldrip, something like that. I was there maybe an hour, and I think that's when I I went to eat. And um >> Before or after? >> I don't remember if I went I'm I'm thinking I went to eat after. I'm not positive I'm not 100%. So. But I I went to the bank yesterday, pulled my statement to to try to figure out the best I could. >> Did you bring them in? >> No, I forgot them. >> Okay. You have them, though? >> Yeah. >> You're willing to hand those over? >> Absolutely. >> Okay. >> No problem. >> All right, so were you trying to make arrangements with Ashley to meet up for lunch or anything? >> just always, you know, if she Yeah, I mean, I love, you know, would have loved to And she just said she was tied up with work. >> Okay. All All and do you remember what you did after eating lunch? >> Um I guess I went home. Um I I have a charge on there for Popeyes that night. So, I know I remember at some point going to Popeyes Chicken >> Mhm. >> on Cervantes, and I remember I had the doors off my Jeep, and it was a little chilly. Um and I remember having to wait on my food for a little bit. So, um I went to Popeyes, and I was by myself. Kind of drove home, so. >> Do you know where she was? >> A lot of times she would uh hang out at the the pool hall up there at Sticks, or whatever, with her girlfriends, or whatever, so maybe there. I don't I mean, I don't I don't remember. >> Okay. Um do you remember if she well, first of all, I guess you have a grandmother that lives out in Milton. >> Mhm. >> Is that right? Did she go visit her very often? >> Mhm. >> Just when we go over there. >> Okay. Do you know if she went out there anytime without you back in September? >> I don't know. >> Okay. Um would your grandmother have told you would it have been unusual and she would have said >> Yeah. Yeah, she would have told me. >> Okay. Um do you know anybody that lives out in Milton? >> Just my parents and Hoy Daddy, Hoyland, you know. Um I mean, yeah. I mean, I'm I don't remember anybody else off the top of my head, but Yeah, I mean, yeah. >> Well, while we're on that topic, um at one point in time uh the family or you, there was a farm that was out in in Milton at some point. >> That That was her family's farm out there. >> Who, the Grassleys? >> Yeah. >> I mean, but have you ever been out there, you? >> Um the farm out there in Milton, it's been years. >> Do they still own it? >> Her family does, yeah. I guess her uncle owns the >> Then comes a small change. Nothing explosive, no confession, no dramatic confrontation, just a detail that doesn't quite sit comfortably beside what we've already heard. Notice the question the detective asks here. It isn't aggressive. That's the point. Instead of telling her that she's wrong, he gives her another opportunity to explain herself. And sometimes, that's far more revealing because now she has to defend the story without knowing exactly which part the detective is testing. >> Uh the big one first or the small one? >> one first and then the small one. >> Okay. And who was the attorney on that? >> John Gann. >> Say here? >> Yeah. >> Okay. All right. >> Do you know anything about your bills as far as how much you owe on credit cards or anything like that? >> everything. She takes care of it all. Every single bit of it. >> Is there any indication that you guys are in financial trouble? >> No, I No, I thought I'm living off my the settlement I just got and plus she works every day. I mean, I haven't worked in a few months doing the PI stuff, but I No, I I I didn't know we had any financial problems at all. No. I mean, I just got $60,000. I don't >> Have you checked to see if that money's still there? >> I understand, everything's gone. >> Where do you think it went? >> I don't know. >> W- When did you come to find out that your money or the money that that was in, you know, Cam or y'all's account was missing? >> I guess after all all this investigation started and in the room where I don't know if I don't know who said that hey, all the accounts are dry and I hear she's got like 13 accounts. I didn't know that. You know? But I mean, she runs she runs her business, so I don't know I I don't I don't I don't have any clue about the our bank account. Other I She pays everything. Every single bit of it. >> Do you know how much money she makes? >> I heard her mother say one time that her mother said 45. Her mother told my buddy Darwood. Darwood told me that she made 45,000. I mean, I thought she thought she did well. We've never really talked about it, you know. I just never I just thought she did well with that business. They've had that business forever and, you know, that's it. I feel stupid now not knowing, you know. >> Well, think think about this and and layman's terms of reality. I mean, the things you were able to do and the things that you have, do you think $45,000 would cover that? >> I'm just assuming that she did very well with the business cuz I I mean, she was she ran that business, you know. It used to be her dad's business. She ran the business and, you know, I knew I got my money from the my uh settlement, so I didn't think we had any any problems whatsoever. >> Well, what about prior to the settlement financial wise? Prior to uh March and then whenever you said >> thought we were living off the money she made. >> Okay. >> We really I mean, I don't I don't think we've been doing much in the last year or so. I mean, I've been going off with my sheepdog people, you know, and they they fund all of that. They've done a lot for me, you know. They they fit that, so I haven't I haven't And And all I've been trying to do is I like I've been out of town trying to get some jobs at some other agencies and stuff like that. So. >> The atmosphere begins changing here. The detective isn't simply asking for information anymore. He's testing the structure of the explanation. One detail leads to another, then another, and suddenly the suspect isn't just telling a story, she's trying to keep several details consistent at the same time. That's where interrogations can become psychologically difficult. A person can remember the broad version of an event. It's the small details that become harder to control, and the detectives are starting to focus on those small details. >> from you and your your house or something? >> I said, "Just don't Just don't I said I Just don't bring her around our house. I don't want to be around her." And Ash is just Ash is the kind type of person she don't like confrontation. She don't want to She probably She you know, she don't want to argue with nobody anything like that, you know, she probably you know, um Yeah, I I I told Ash I I I don't want to be around her. So, I don't want to be around anybody like that. I mean, I I cut my own brother off cuz cuz of that. So, that ain't me. I don't roll like that. >> Now, the day that Taylor disappeared, do you remember talking to Ashley on the phone or anything? >> I'm sure I We I mean, we we talk periodically throughout the day. >> Do you remember talking on the phone to Ashley and hearing that Taylor was in the background? >> Mhm. I Sometime at that I I don't remember that. I thought she was helping Ash or helping Taylor move those few days or or what There was sometime right then that she was helping Taylor move quite a bit, and Taylor had to borrow the box truck or something like that. So, >> But, do you remember and you may not remember what day it was, but do you remember some conversation where you were speaking to Ashley on the phone and you heard Taylor in the background and you knew Taylor was with her. >> No, I don't remember that. No. No. No. >> Um Oh, did Ashley start smoking cigarettes recently or something? >> I don't think she ever quit to be honest. >> Okay. >> So, when she smoked? Uh [ __ ] Um It seemed like some kind of generic brand. I don't remember. Um >> Do you remember if it was like Newports or >> It wasn't. >> Or >> I mean >> Salems or >> Salems. It was Salems. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> All right. Now that I'm thinking about it, um going back to the day we were asking you in your timeline about when you went and ate seafood and then you went to this one girl's house or whatever the day of the 8th. >> Mhm. >> What were you driving that day? >> My Jeep. >> Your Jeep. >> Yeah. >> And um where were the other vehicles? >> I don't know. I don't I don't remember what Ash was doing. I know Ash was around that time using my truck to help Taylor move. I know that. I know I was driving my Jeep. >> Okay. So there was a period of time that Ashley would drive the truck. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know she was driving my truck then to help Taylor move around those days. When Taylor was moving around those days and she Ash was driving my truck to help her move. >> And you were driving your white Jeep or your black Jeep? >> Jeep. >> Okay. And then the black Jeep was >> I get I'm sure it was in the Whichever one Ash was driving was in at the house. >> Okay. All right. So it wasn't in the shop or anything like that? >> The black? I don't >> [snorts] >> The black Jeep? Unless it was I I got a lift put on it at some point and let's I don't remember. I don't think so. I I don't I don't think so. >> And and on the the cigarettes, did she smoke regular lights, menthols? >> I I think I I don't know much about cigs. I ain't never smoked no cigarettes, so I mean, I think they were menthols, but I ain't sure. But I've seen I mean, I've seen her smoke different brand, you know, different brands, you know, but most of the time it was the uh >> Sorry, what was that? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Did you ever know her to drink during the day? >> No. >> Did she drink beer? >> No. >> No. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> Did she use drugs? >> She hardly ever drank. She She She um She told me she would have a shot up there at the pool hall every now and then, but that's Ash didn't really drink. >> Did she use drugs? >> No. No. I wouldn't stay with her. I'm down, y'all. I'm not down like that. I don't I don't I don't like I don't Man, I'm a cop through and through. I don't I don't [ __ ] around with that. I don't want nothing no part of it. I wouldn't have I wouldn't have if I wouldn't stay I would not stay with somebody that does that. >> Do Do you ever recall um Did you ever sign any signature cards or anything to be put on an account? >> No, they Um I mean they they kind of I mean they I mean she Man, I've been on those accounts for so long. I mean Ash could have brought probably um I never go to the bank. Very seldom. So, I mean I I never I mean I couldn't tell you the last time I've been I don't Ash deals with all of that. Every single bit of it. >> Did um Why did you end up canceling your credit card? >> What What credit card? >> You had canceled a credit card and it was reported stolen or claimed to be stolen of that nature. >> My debit card? >> I don't know if it was a debit or a credit. I'd have to go back and look. >> All I've had is a debit card. >> Just just one? >> I've had probably three over and it's but but it's from the for the same account. So, they >> Um I'm going to ask you this. Did Did you kill or participate in the death of >> I would rather not answer this question. >> Okay. >> Go ahead. >> Did you kill or participate or do you have any knowledge? >> Zero, Jason. Absolutely none. I don't want to be nowhere near it, no nothing involved with it, nothing. I know nothing about it. >> What? Have you ever heard anybody mention of a black guy who goes by the name of T or anything of that nature? >> Mhm. >> Nothing? >> No. >> All right. Did you bring your phone with you? >> Yeah, it's in the Jeep. >> You have a problem if we download it? >> Uh I don't have a problem with anything. No, I don't I don't I mean, can you do it like quickly? >> We'll do it as fast If if you're giving us permission to do it, as soon as we walk outside, I'll have our guys start dumping it and get it back to you. Let's talk about that. >> Okay. >> So, I mean, I will I I will tell you, I mean, we do have your phone records >> Yeah, I figured that. I'm good. I figured. Yeah. >> So, and I mean, bottom line is I don't you know, help exonerate him or or not. So, >> I Jason, I have no no involvement with this whatsoever. >> Well, well, Zach, that that's the whole idea of getting you up here because I know you're in a tough situation cuz your wife's locked up for for a murder charge right now. So, but like I tell everybody that sits in these chairs, you know, to understand why somebody died, you also have to understand how they lived and who they hung around with, you know. So, that that that's the whole idea of >> I get I get that. So, I don't have I don't have no problem being here. >> And and I guess I mean, the one thing from from the get-go and I know you're running short on time. >> Well, but I appreciate it and so you're knocking it out. >> That and and and it just you know, I guess perplexes me that and this is talking to you, not not about Ashley or anything else is that I mean I I I may not whether I let if I let my wife handle the finances or I I did the finances or whatever, I got some type of idea, you know, of our money situation if I could go to Dick's Sporting Goods and buy me a pair of shoes and the card's not going to be declined or or anything of that nature. You know what I'm saying? >> If it was over $100 or something, I might would go hey, can I you know, get this cuz I I knew I knew that I didn't think she put she told me that the my money was maybe in savings or something like that and I I think she kept around $1,000 in our account, something like that. But I mean that's I I didn't think we I had no idea we had a a money problem whatsoever. None. >> Just as long as you were are you Is it fair to say just as long as you were able to do the things that you did, you never questioned it or >> I I just I I thought she made plenty of money at working at the shop. So it never gave me a reason to question anything. >> Well, and and then we you talked about early on. I mean, you know, you work here at the sheriff's office. We don't make a whole bunch of money and I mean $45,000, you know, is you know, middle to lower middle income, you know, and I mean I mean I know I couldn't run my household off of 45 grand. >> I'm assuming she made more than that. I really do. I mean I thought she just did very well with that business. I had no reason to question it whatsoever. None. None. >> What do you know about uh James Hayes? >> Who? >> James Hayes. >> Is that that old dude that that uh >> The guy who lives at the shop. >> Helps her move equipment and [ __ ] >> How long's he been in the picture? >> Um Um know how many months. How many months she said he was she helps him move he helps move stuff at the at the shop and >> He just kind of showed up one day or what? >> Uh she met him he was working for that Brandon guy and he did he just did work for them just odd end jobs and I guess she got into help at the shop. >> And then kind of he's got what a little pallet or he sleeps somewhere or something like that or something like that. >> stays right there at the shop. Yeah. >> Would you ever go to the business over there? Did you ever see him over there? >> I I had my uh my lawn mower and shit's over there you know stuff like that and I remember uh there were some pool table stuff in the garage I took to the shop and just anything I wanted to get out of the way of the garage I took to the shop you know just to get that out of my way at the house and then I would just you know put it there and he he I'd seen him there before. >> Did Did y'all pay him or anything like that? >> I'm I'm sure Ash did. Um I'm sure she paid him too. >> This is one of those moments that's easy to miss if you're only listening to the words. Pay attention to the way the conversation changes. The question itself hasn't necessarily become more aggressive but the response becomes more complicated. There's more explanation more justification more justification more effort to establish why her version should make sense. And that doesn't automatically mean deception but context matters because earlier the answer seemed simple. Now it requires defending and that's a subtle psychological shift. >> ask. >> Do you remember what it looked like? >> Eno is it a Eno? I think it's what they call it. >> I don't I don't I don't know they're they're expensive ain't they? >> Yeah I mean they're the Savannah's that's all I know. I know she's got one anyways. >> Who Who bought that? She did or you did or >> I don't know if her granny got it for her for Christmas, or I don't know, I don't know. I have no idea. No clue. >> And that was just something that stayed out there whenever she come to when Savannah come out there, she'd use it, or something of that nature? >> I didn't know it was out there. I don't know. Savannah would I mean, Savannah, she's she's a cool kid. I mean, she would um I I could see her doing that. I could see Savannah putting it out there. >> Well, did did the uh hammock at one time did it when Savannah was with you, or or at your house, or whatever, did she keep the hammock over there? At your house? >> Yeah, it's been Yeah, it's been at our house. >> Okay. But, it's on the property. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> All right. Uh why has Savannah not lived with y'all for the past 3 months? >> Just Just over me and Ashley arguing over over her situation, or whatever, but >> And she's lived with Ashley's mama. >> Mhm. >> So, and that's in Gulf Breeze. >> Yeah. >> Does she go to school? >> She's home schooled. >> Home schooled? What is she? >> 16 or 15? >> 16. 16. >> Okay. All right. >> And I claim her because she really got a dad, so I claim her. I mean, I love the kid, so. >> All right. Mhm. Trying to think, man, because I've uh as you know, we inherited this case uh from the city, so everything that's going on over the past uh 6 weeks has been thrown into my head in about 3 or 4 days, and I'm like a scattered cat. Uh what do you think happened to Taylor? >> I couldn't tell you, Jason. I mean, I I don't I don't know. I don't know. I mean, nobody nobody deserves to ever get anything happen to them like that whatsoever. I don't know, buddy. I don't know what happened to her. >> And I you know, I'm asking you. Do you as this investigation continues, whether it's text, phone records, computers, financials, is there going to be anything that hems you up or ties you to this >> nothing. Nothing. Nothing. None. I'm not that guy, man. You know, and you chasing god damn you know me. >> Well, if you're in my shoes, this has to be it. >> I'm right. >> It has to be it. >> I'm right. Y'all I mean, I'm not I'm not that guy. I've never have been. I'm never going to be. I mean, I was still there's applications on my my table at home and I've been going to interviews trying to get back in law enforcement. I'm not that guy. Never going to be. I'm never have been. I'm a good I'm a good person, man. I don't I don't hang around I don't hang out with dirt bags, whatsoever. You know? >> Well, I'm not just being involved in the actual murder, but as far as, you know, afterwards >> conceal >> If If any person in this world was like, "Hey Zach, come help me do something." I would run from that [ __ ] as fast as I could. I don't want no Hell no. No. Nope. I don't break the law. I don't. >> You've read it. >> Yeah, I've read it. Read it. I'm I'm I'm >> And and I mean >> trying to swallow it and and and and figure it out. I mean, it's like it it's terrible. I It sucks. >> But you've read it. So, you know at least some of the details. >> And All I know is what I read on >> your question? >> And and just based upon that and your knowledge of the job that we do and the job that you used to do, what's your thought? >> Feelings aside. >> Just logically. We didn't just [ __ ] show up at Britt Road. >> I can't I can't I can't see her doing something like that. I mean, she's super intelligent. You know? She's got a criminal I mean a uh um >> Master's degree. >> Yeah, or a bat Is it master's or bat? I don't I don't know. One of the two. And and uh that's just sloppy. I mean, that's sloppy [ __ ] That's sloppy. I can't see her doing that. It's super sloppy. >> Allen, back up uh one quick thing, Ryan. And you probably already told me, but I forgot. Do you recall the exact time frame that you were ever out there at the When was the last time you believe you were at the the property on Britt Road? >> When I met that guy to to to swap swap our machines. That That was it. That was it. >> When you met that guy to swap them, was Kyle already still living out there? Or was Kyle living there? >> Yeah, maybe he was there. I don't >> Because I'll give you a time frame. According to Kyle, Kyle come here to go to school. School started middle August. So, >> Yeah, >> talking two months or so. >> Yeah, so he Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> All right. Well, when you were out there, then, where was the four-wheeler being housed? >> Parked in the back of the uh back of the uh uh barn. >> Outside or inside? >> Outside. >> Okay. Uh did you ever, at any time you were out there, uh did you ever notice any type of uh concrete, quickcrete, anything of that nature? >> Mhm. None. Zero. >> Okay. >> Mhm. No. >> And >> What? >> I know you're doing some home improvements and stuff. Does Ashley help you with that? >> I mean, we haven't done nothing with that and that's been like that for that's been like that for a while. >> What what all have you been doing down? It's what? Just in the bottom floor? >> we Yeah, we got screwed over by a contractor and uh it's just it's been a nightmare ever since. Yeah, the bottom bottom that bottom floor basement down there. >> Okay. Now, I noticed I noticed some what? Mortar or something? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was We had uh my buddy Ray did that over a year ago and it's just it's extra stuff that's been there and I I don't and cuz I know we're going to re-tile it or whatever and or have it done and it was just no reason to throw it out. >> Okay. So, Ray was doing it. Did Ashley ever help you do tile work or anything like that? >> Uh she helped me put the tile in the house. Yeah. >> Okay. >> And up upstairs. Um And but that's that's been years ago. Um But that down there's been a disaster for a while. >> Is the camera working in your house? >> No. I tried to hook it up over a year ago and I got it to work in the beginning and then it [ __ ] man. It That's a it's difficult. So, that they should be able to see on there when the last time I had but I hadn't I hadn't used it in quite a while. >> And And what kind of relationship did Kyle and uh Ashley have? >> I mean they were good I mean they were good family cousin I got cousins I guess. Um I don't think it was a Yeah, cousins. Um they would talk from time to time. Yeah, he come over a couple times. He come over and watched the first Alabama game with us. Um but yeah, just you know >> Um how many phones do you have? >> One. >> How many phones did Ashley have? >> One. >> What phone was she using when uh the first one got taken? >> She after her iPhone when after she dropped her iPhone >> Was it a city Yeah. >> Yeah, she used Miss Kay's phone that worked with her. >> And at work from her business? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Is that older lady or >> Yeah, that Yeah, older lady that would go around with and >> There has been no reticence in McArthur's answers so far. He cannot bring himself to believe his wife is capable of such a crime. But you can tell that on some level he knows how the evidence is stacking up. >> Helper flight. >> Do you know what was that phone number? You know? >> I don't know it off the top of my head. >> So she borrowed Miss Kay's phone. >> Miss Kay's phone. >> And then what? >> Um and then she got a phone off Craigslist. The phone the second phone she gave to him I think the day she got arrested. She bought a phone off Craigslist. >> Now what did the first phone look like? >> Uh I think it was iPhone 6. The you know, the big one. >> Do you remember what color it was? >> No. She had different cases on it before. I don't I don't remember exactly what color it was. >> And then the second one, do you remember what color that was? >> I think it was white. I think it >> about Kay's or the Craigslist? >> Oh, Kay's I don't Kay's I don't know what color Kay. I don't know what color case was, but I know that the one that the small one I think it was white the one she got off Craigslist. It was just a little bitty iPhone. >> Do you know the passcode to any of those phones? >> I think if I ain't mistaken she just used her fingerprint. >> At any time did you ever see her with more than one cell phone? >> No. Never. >> Um as far as and I know we skipping around and I apologize I'm not in order. >> Y'all trying to y'all doing a good job trying to figure this [ __ ] out. I'm >> Let's go back to the 9th which is the day after uh Jimmy's wedding. >> Mhm. >> All right. Did y'all go to Jimmy's wedding? >> Yeah. >> Together? >> Yeah. >> Okay. And what time would you say you got there? >> I don't know maybe We were waiting on Milstead. So we stopped and got um some a snack at the uh place in Robertsdale. We stopped and got a snack there. Um we were waiting on Milstead cuz he was running behind. So it was I don't know maybe >> Were y'all all going to ride together or follow? >> No, we were just trying to meet there about the same time just to walk in together, you know. I hate walking in anywhere by myself. Um and we were trying to Milstead was like wait on us, you know, whatever and so um I don't know just maybe 15 20 minutes 30 minutes before it started. >> You but you and Ashley y'all rode together? >> rode together. >> What were y'all in? >> My Jeep. >> The white Jeep? >> The white Jeep. >> Okay. All right. And then it is my understanding that at some point she left. >> Yeah. >> Um about how long after y'all were there? >> Oh, man, I I remember it was before we ate or after. I don't remember. >> Well, I mean >> But she left she she I >> I mean, what, hour in from when y'all got there, she was gone? Couple hours? I mean >> I don't think it was a couple hours. Man, I don't know. I don't I'll have to get with some of them and I I don't remember, Jason. I don't remember. It wasn't We were there for a little bit and then she said she had a um one of her locate the jukebox was down at one of her locations. I remember that's like, you know, I was disappointed. I didn't want her to have to go and then she left and she and I I rode home with Milstead. >> When when when she said something like that or whatever, you just take that at face value to be true and >> Yeah, that's not uncommon for her to have to go fix a machine or or, you know, see what's wrong with it or if the Wi-Fi's out or whatever, however that [ __ ] works. >> And did y'all correspond at all after that night or whatever? >> Yeah, I'm sure. >> What time did you get home? >> Um >> Milstead dropped you off at home? >> Yeah, whenever Milstead dropped me off >> At home on Raintree? Got an idea about what time? Midnight? I mean, 10:00, 11:00? >> I don't think it was that late. >> Uh when you got home, was she home? >> No. Uh-uh. >> Okay. Where did she tell you she had been? >> I think she was at the pool hall. She was always up there. She would go up there all the time. >> Why? >> Just to hang out with her girlfriends. That's what she told me. >> Okay. >> Do you know what she did that day before the wedding? >> Um I remember us asking her if she wanted to do lunch and she was saying she was just tied up with work. >> And this may be one of the smartest moments in the interrogation. The detective doesn't rush to fill the silence. He doesn't immediately argue. He lets the answer sit there. That silence creates space and people often feel an urge to fill space. The longer the conversation continues, the more the suspect has to decide whether to stay with the previous explanation or add something new. And once a new detail enters the story, it can be tested. The pressure is becoming less obvious, but it's becoming more precise. >> Sorry. >> Okay. >> Um but she just told me she was working on if I remember correctly. >> Okay. >> What once Taylor uh disappeared cuz you know there was a little discrepancy there, you know, last time she was seen and I asked for a report uh being made. Um What what was at any time did you you know you talk with Ashley? What were her thoughts on any of that stuff? >> I'd ask her every now and then like did they has anybody ever said anything? You know, any any word on Taylor or anything like that? She's like no nobody's heard nothing yet. You know, I mean I've always I'm like wondered, you know, I wonder what that you know, but no nobody nobody ever said anything. >> I mean what she just kind of blow it off or just like oh well I don't >> No no. Nothing like that. She's like ain't nobody I said you talked to the city have they have they you talked to them anymore? They said I'm like she's like no nobody nobody said anything else. You know? The The Taylor Taylor was strange man. I'm telling you something something was I I didn't feel I just had that you know that feeling we get you know as and you know, and she would just disappear and so I just I didn't know I didn't know what to think. I I mean I I figured out she had a drug problem. You know, and I'm thinking that for a while. >> Um now would Ashley ever go to any pawn shops or anything of that nature? Would she buy things from pawn shops at all? >> No, I mean I did. You know I mean you know I did. I mean [ __ ] me and Hoyland would wear them out. You know what I mean? >> Uh, did did she um Did she ever mention that that Taylor had any firearms of anything of that nature? Did you know if Taylor had any? >> Yeah, Taylor always had a couple guns with her. >> Do you remember what kind? >> Glocks. Taylor always had a couple Glocks. >> .380s, .9s, .40s? >> Taylor had a Taylor had a Glock. I think it was the .45 and I thought damn, that's a big gun for you know for her. I think she had a .45. She had another I don't know what the other one was. I don't remember. I think she had two Glocks. She always had guns with her. >> Um Did Would she have ever given any firearms or any property uh to y'all or Ashley or anything to hold? >> Not that I know of, Jason. No. >> Did you have a Did you or Did y'all have a safety deposit box? >> I've never had one ever. If If Ash had one it it's not beyond anything I know. I've never I don't I don't even know the thing. >> All right. Give us just a second. Let me make sure I'm not leaving out nothing. >> Sure, you want to see me walk out? >> No, no, you can stay right here but I do whenever if if when we do wrap up if in private or away from here outside you want to discuss the phone situation with him that's fine or however you want to do that. >> Okay. >> So, give us just >> all need some water or anything? >> While we're in here right now, no I don't need anything. Thank you. Do you need any? >> You got bottled water in here? I did. >> What red? >> Do you know how long you would have the phone? >> Is that up to the tech guy? >> I I'll tell you what. Let me Matter of fact >> Who's got the black one now? I don't know. >> Andrew Smith You got the red one and the black one and the white >> Generally I I can give you the best that I know. Generally it'll take depending on how much stuff you have stored on there it can take maybe an hour or so. >> Oh, okay. It's not going to be a week. >> Oh, no. No, if he wants to I don't know you got to go. If he wants to uh we have a few more questions to ask you and you can just hang out here. We'll do it and give it right back to you. >> We should swing by later and pick it up. >> No, I mean >> Whatever you want to >> Whatever he wants to do, but I mean really it's just when it's done we'll give it right back to you. >> You know it might take an hour. >> Maybe. >> Yeah, I think I can get it then. And do you know anything about him getting his stuff back? Truck and Jeep and >> We still we still have the truck. Um that's with us and we're still doing a few things with that. And as soon as that's done we'll go from there. Um You got one of the Jeeps back, right? >> Yeah, you got the black one back. >> White one. >> You got the white one. Um TPD's got that Jeep. >> Which one is >> The >> The black one? >> Uh-huh. >> I got the white one from PPD. >> Yeah, they I think they still have the other one. >> I didn't see it when I went to get the white one. But it's y'all's investigation, right? >> Mhm. >> Do you all know if You all still processing the Jeep or >> Um we got to figure out what all there there's one issue that we're waiting to hear on with the Jeep. So, as soon as I know, we'll we'll go from there. >> And then there was a video camera, I guess, yesterday that was taken and >> that I use for work. >> search warrant. >> Okay. Yeah, as soon as we can get all the search warrants on everything, as I can release things, I'll start releasing it. There's just a lot of stuff going on right now. >> Yeah, he needs >> Yeah, that piece for his work as much as he can get. >> Okay. >> Can't have it done today? I'm not. >> Can't? >> No, can. >> Oh. >> Um you got to understand, I'm the I'm way behind the curve on electronics. My kids blow me out of the water. >> Sure. >> You know, >> [clears throat] >> um he says it's depending how much data is on there, minimum 30 minutes. I said, "Well, give me a time frame." So, he went with safely around 2 hours, maybe 3 at the most, but he said it could be done in 30 minutes. So, worst case scenario, if he started on it now, he'd have it back no later 5. Could be way before that. >> he's going to come back by here. >> Yeah, I'll come back and get it. >> And the the other thing we were talking to Megan about was just getting his stuff back. And he's being cooperative and giving the phone. If you guys could just do your what you could to >> I'm on my I'm on my laptop. Like my resume's on that, you know, and I'm I've been >> Was that in your truck? >> My laptop? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. It was at home. >> I I'll get this >> Get his camcorder. >> Cuz cuz you got to understand, we have very little. City has everything. But, it's our case now, so it's I mean, it's not a problem getting that thing back. Um Did you ask me anything else? >> No, we were just talking to her, asking me all that stuff. >> Quick question, Zach. And I know in the world we live in uh with phones and [ __ ] most people are logged under a name. Does this phone number right here, 918 uh 918 prefix, not not long distance, I assume it's part of 5071. Does that ring a bell at all? >> No. >> All right. >> No. >> All right. Going back to the night that you went to Jimmy's wedding and she left and you said when you got home that night she was not at home. >> Yeah, she was not home. >> This is where the dynamic begins to change. Earlier, the suspect was mostly explaining events. Now she's responding to the detective structure. That's a very different position. The questions are becoming narrower. The available answers are becoming smaller. And suddenly, the interrogation isn't really about telling the story anymore. It's about whether the story can survive detailed questioning. Listen closely to what happens next because one answer here has consequences for everything that came before it. >> Okay. All right. >> I mean, usually our usual routine was maybe would get sleep in, go get go get lunch, you know, and which is a normal routine. >> Well, maybe to help with your time frame a little bit that weekend, um you went to New Orleans. >> Mhm. >> Did you leave Sunday? >> Yeah. I Was that when it was the >> Cuz you had an interview on the 11th. >> Yes. Okay. Yeah, then yeah. I Because Monday Yeah, I had to be there. Wait a minute. Did I get Trying to think if I just left early that morning. I left early. I think I No, I don't I think I left real early that morning that Monday morning. I did. >> What time was your interview? Or your or your >> It was a test. It was a test. Um >> Was it at NOPD? >> It was at one of their outlying uh had something to do with mosquito. Uh it was in in the city. Right right in in uh it was in the city. >> Was it out outside like >> river. >> Outside of New Orleans city? >> Right. >> It was there in New Orleans? >> Yeah. >> Okay. And what time was this? >> north of the just north of the interstate. Um Maybe 9:00 9:00 something like that. I don't I don't remember exactly. I mean I Um >> Did she go with you? >> No. >> Did you take somebody else with you? >> Uh-uh. I was by myself. >> Okay. Um And when did you return? >> Um >> Or did you spend the night? >> I think I spent one night. I spent Monday night cuz we'd already paid for the hotel. >> You say we? >> Ash always got me a hotel if I needed one. If I was out of town trying to get a job or going to these tests or whatever. Um I stayed that one night. Yeah. And I remember eating at Mother's. Um and then I got a call. I don't know what time it was that afternoon that I I failed that part of the test cuz of god damn math on it. Like why do you put algebra on a [ __ ] police test? Do you know what I mean? Like I don't remember [ __ ] algebra. You know? I mean who the [ __ ] what the [ __ ] is point I mean [ __ ] like I ain't never seen on that [ __ ] and I you know it's another [ __ ] language and I was like my god. I'm I think I only missed it by one or one point or something but [ __ ] I don't remember no math. You know? I Man I do good police work. I I I don't [ __ ] with math. I mean Do y'all remember [ __ ] algebra? I mean >> I Man when my son >> You know what I mean? >> and daughter when they were probably in the >> It's [ __ ] like I see now or Savannah brings home and I'm like >> take that to your mama. >> Right. I don't I don't know how to do that [ __ ] but why do you why do you need math in [ __ ] police work? I don't I don't you know? >> Yeah. >> So, I failed that test and then I um I remember staying I love New Orleans. Absolutely [ __ ] love it. And um so I stayed that night. Um I ate at Mother's. I walked down Bourbon Street. There was a bunch of construction going on. Um and uh I had one hand grenade. And um went back to the hotel. Got me some of them [ __ ] cookies they give you at the desk. I remember that. Cuz Ash likes to cook. She's like, "Give me some cookies." So, I got some extra cook- I remember the lady saying I'm like, "Hey, um the the lady said I said, "Can I get a couple extra cookies? My my wife really likes them." She's like, "Okay." You know, like assuming I'm my fat ass is going to eat all of them. >> [laughter] >> You know, I remember that and I thought I remember telling Ash that. But got her some cookies and I went upstairs and uh I didn't stay out real late and then I came home the next day. >> Morning time. So, that'd have been Tuesday. >> Yeah. >> Morning afternoon early afternoon when you come home. >> I probably slept till 9:00 or 10:00 and then got up and um headed back towards the house. >> And when you got did you go back to Raintree? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Was anybody home when you got there? >> Um Ash was probably at work. I don't I don't I don't really remember. >> Well, that that brings up another good point. I mean is it fair to say or or does she have a set schedule? You know, like some people work Monday through Friday 8:00 to 5:00 or 9:00 to 5:00? >> Yeah, she would usually work she would usually get up at 9:00 or so then mosey on to work, you know, cuz she kind of made up her own schedule. >> Did somebody >> By this point, the detectives have accumulated enough information to start connecting earlier statements with later ones. And that's when seemingly harmless details can become important. Something said earlier may sound completely different once you hear the later explanation. This is why interrogation analysis isn't just about one dramatic reaction. Sometimes the most revealing moment is the accumulation of small changes. A different word, a longer pause, a new explanation, a detail that wasn't there before. Individually, they may mean very little. Together, they can completely change how the conversation feels. >> Selman, I think it's Selman. >> Okay. >> And you say she's a little bit older? >> Mhm. >> My age? >> Older than you are, buddy. >> Older than you are. >> I know that. >> All right. Is she pretty tight with K? >> I wouldn't say tight K. She's a [ __ ] talker, man. She just sits there and just she just rambles on about [ __ ] >> So, it's fair to say then if she really didn't have to go to the office, I mean, she kind of has free reign to kind of go do whatever she needs to do. >> She would meet Miss K off and on or help Yeah, or or K would go collect some stuff here and Ash would go to another location. From what I understand, that's that's how they they work. Sometimes they would go together, sometimes they wouldn't, depending on just depending on what machine needed what. >> I mean, since Ashley's running the business, proceeds or income that were coming into the business from whatever you had or whatever, you you know, the family or whoever had out there, um the proceeds, I mean, were were her mom and dad still getting a cut? >> No, from what I understand, Ash had I thought it was Ash's, you know? I thought everything I think her dad would ask for some cash every now and then or whatever and he's kind of lost it, you know? He's not He's got dementia or I don't know what it Whatever he's got, but every now and then she'd give him some cash if he needed it or whatever, but it was from what I understand, it was 100 it was Ash's. Everything was Ash's. That's I never never questioned You know, I thought she did very well with that business. Her Her dad used to do very well with it, so I had no reason to to question any of that, you know? >> Uh does Ashley get paid from a trust fund also? >> I don't I don't I don't I don't know. I don't know. >> I bet there's a lot of questions you wish you would ask now. >> Oh my god, dude. Y'all have no idea. >> So All right, I can't think of nothing else. If we want to go out and get that phone, let me get a form real quick to >> Okay. >> And then I mean we'll give it As soon as this done, um you tell me how or are you just going to come back up here so we can give it back to you, okay? All right, let me let me grab forms >> As soon as you can, I need my laptop for work and just trying to get other jobs >> What What kind of laptop is it? >> Yeah, we have to call the >> It's my my HP laptop. >> HP >> Black, silver, what? >> It's a [ __ ] Star Wars laptop, okay? >> [clears throat] [laughter] >> Let me grab this form real quick. And your video cam. >> My video camera that y'all got yesterday and the SD cards that go with it, you know, I use that for work. >> Um As soon as I can get back to you, I'll let you know, okay? >> Okay. All right. What about my miscellaneous keys and stuff that were in my truck? Going to get any of that back? >> Um Were they on the key chain or was it just in the truck? >> laying in the truck. >> Okay. We should be able to get that back to you. Um You know, honestly, I mean the truck should be done um maybe tomorrow. >> I've got to split cuz I got a judge freaking out. So, we're no no more questions. You're going to sign that. You're going to give him the phone. We're You're to go. You swear and affirm. She swears you in. >> No, I haven't done it yet. >> Okay. >> Do you swear everything you tell us will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but >> Absolutely. >> Okay. Do you want to walk him out? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to get him. Cool. >> I'll work on it. >> All right, we'll talk right after this. >> bye. >> All right, thanks. Let me uh 2 seconds to grab the keys, so I can get back to you. >> Where's Don at? >> Um I don't know. We didn't tell anybody you were coming up here. We got everybody. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Kicked out, so >> Thanks. >> Yeah. Um this right here says you do not have to consent to a search of yourself or your property. If you do consent to such search, any evidence observed or obtained by such search can be used against you in a court of law. If you refuse to consent to such search, your refusal cannot be used against you. Unless you consent to such search, we cannot search you or your property without probable cause, except upon the authority of a search warrant issued by a judge or a proper court authorizing the search. A search warrant will not be issued except upon an affidavit setting forth the facts which constitute legally sufficient probable cause for the issuance of the search warrant. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before consenting to such search. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will >> And now we reach the point where everything we've been watching starts to come together. The important question isn't simply whether the suspect became emotional, defensive, or uncomfortable. The bigger question is what happened to the story. At the beginning, she had room to explain. As the detectives continued questioning, that room became smaller. Every answer created another detail to account for. Every explanation became something that could be compared with what she'd already said. And that's what makes this interrogation so compelling. The pressure didn't necessarily come from one explosive question. It came from the gradual realization that the story had to survive every question that came after it. And once that happens, the interrogation stops being about controlling the conversation. It becomes about controlling the story. And that's a much harder thing to do.