You clearly need help, too, though. >> You're going to be dealing with this. This is baggage. This is something that But all I want to know is what stopped you from seeking help. You knew something was wrong. What stopped you? Tell us the truth. >> I mean, are you guys that financially strapped? I mean, what is it? Do you not believe in healthcare? Do you I mean, do you have religious beliefs? I mean, what is it? We do have religious beliefs and I we just we were praying about it and and then we have faith that that >> when did you start praying about it? >> I mean when she was born but >> course 2 2018 police open the door of a Michigan farmhouse and step inside. They've been told only one thing. A baby is dead. But what they find inside that room is something no one was prepared for. 10-month-old Mary is lying in her crib. She weighs just pounds, roughly the weight of a newborn. Her bones are visible beneath her skin. And yet, inside the house, there is food. The refrigerator is stocked. Milk is stored in the freezer. That same evening, Mary's mother sits across from a detective and describes her daughter's feeding schedule in extraordinary detail. Hour by hour, every feeding, every diaper. She knows exactly what she says Mary was given. So, there's only one question. If Mary was being fed every day, how did she starve to death? Over the next two hours, that question begins to unravel her story. And when the detectives eventually leave the room, they let the camera keep recording. What happens next may be the coldest moment of the entire interrogation. >> Uh up at the scene, you still remember those rights. That's um >> Thank you for clarifying. >> Yep. No problem. Uh do you want me to read them to you again or you're still good to go? All right. I like I told you, you're not under arrest, but because you're in this fine facility, we do like to just remind you of those. So, um, really what I kind of just like to do is just, uh, to get a better understanding of how we are here today and kind of go back a few years even, just to get to know you and your family a little bit. So, >> okay. >> Do you go by Tantiana or do you have a nickname? >> Tatiana. >> Tantiana. Okay. >> Nickname really to work. You couldn't just give us a easy nickname. No, I'm just kidding. How many children do you have? >> Sorry. >> Three. >> Three. >> Okay. Yep. Right. Was heavier and shorter. >> Mhm. >> That That's my guy. >> Yeah. And he doubt you've seen him. >> He's Yeah. He's not a choppy cat, though. He's He's >> stocking. >> Yeah, he's It's about 20 ounces to the pound. >> Um weeding. >> Yeah. >> All that weeding. >> Yeah, that's right. Get him to wear >> He's happy golucky. So >> um and so so is um >> she's probably 50 pounds now. >> I I don't I don't know about this. Is John in his weight category? >> Yes. either too fat or they're not. And that also prompted a CPS visit. Is that >> Yes, with the same doctor about the helmet. >> Okay. He referred you to CPS how many times? >> It was one as far as I'm aware. >> So, >> yeah. Thanks a lot for the cookie. >> Yeah. Look what happened now. >> So, that was like >> Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. We would expect that, right? So, >> but was it the So, was it the same time that the helmet? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, it was kind of like a couple issues on the same referral. Is that >> we thought they were just coming for the helmet and then she clarified for us and said this documentation here says that she's fine. So, I don't know what he's telling you. >> Right. >> Okay. So, that was probably frustrating. >> Very. >> So, she 3 months ago she weighed 46 pounds. Then about how tall is or was she 3 months ago? >> Oh, um, >> you know, >> I don't know. I forgot. >> Uh, that's all right. I wouldn't know how to tell my kids. I use this. >> That's true. >> You Well, let's say if she were standing here, what's just your ballpark where you think she'd stand to you or you you probably know where she comes to your body? >> Yeah. With me standing, her head is right right up to here. I mean, she fits >> just like chest level. >> Yeah, maybe she's four. >> So, she's actually pretty tall. >> She is, isn't she? I mean, my father-in-law something. >> Oh, well, yeah. Wear on you. He's not just level. So, >> just over the waist. >> Just over the waist. >> Okay. >> Just tall enough for great hug. >> You betcha. So, he is at two. That's actually pretty tall, too. That's actually quite tall, too. >> Yeah, he's going to be a sprouty kid, too, then he um so now we're going to get into a more difficult subject. And then we're married as as well, which obviously you're going to want to talk about. >> The interrogation has been calm up to this point. But now the detective starts asking a very different kind of question. Not what happened, but what Tatiana should have noticed. He asks her to look at Mary's condition from an outsers's perspective, almost as if she were the investigator walking into that house herself. And that changes everything because once she admits that Mary was visibly deteriorating, the explanation becomes much harder to maintain. The detective still isn't accusing her. He's letting her own answers create the problem. And if she could recognize that something was seriously wrong, then one question remains, why wasn't help called sooner? about an age or two over where he should have been. >> He was a tad over. >> Okay. >> Um not in the diaper sense. Um but uh I mean right now he's wearing 3T to 4T diapers, but that's cuz they're the pull-up ones. I'm trying to encourage potty training. >> Yeah. Oh, good. >> Um but uh his clothes right now are 3T. >> Oh, so he is over then. Yeah. >> Yeah. But he's he's going to be three soon. And I just don't want him when he puts his arms up to have his belly out. So >> Well, plus I want to buy him once. You want them to last more than a week. at that age are just sprouting out. >> So, so you didn't work. When did you go back to work? >> Oh, >> about is >> February of this past year >> of this year or 17? This is 2018. So, this >> and that's when I started to organically. >> Okay. And so, >> February, sorry. So >> 17th actually. >> So um so in October so from so October 23rd to November 23rd one to to December to January to February. So basically the first four full months she was fresh from the source breastfed as well. >> Okay. And same story if you went somewhere she went with you. Seth never had to feed her. >> No. So for four months he never fed her. >> No. >> Okay. >> No way. >> Not that he couldn't. I just >> No. >> But why? Yeah. If you're right there. >> Yeah. >> And it was winter cuddle time. >> So February 17th you go back to work. Why did you have to go back to work? >> Um just to be blunt, just support the farm. >> Yeah. >> Um give us some startup money. Because now you guys used to do fruit farm produce stand and stuff was saying that just didn't really take off. Yeah. >> So now I was trying to do a up strawberry thing and >> I would take I was pregnant with Mary taking Elizabeth and John down to farmers markets four times a week from 6 to 3. >> Oh >> yeah. It was grueling. >> It's exhausting. >> Yeah. And having to manage the children and then interact with the customers. And some days we're just not they didn't pay the gas down there. I don't blame you. >> You pick strawberries this year took off phenomenally and we just are going to expand that way. >> So now is the farm whose passion is that? >> It started out as Seth. I was born in Brooklyn, New York. So I didn't >> Not your passion. Then you lay her in bed and then you're off to work. >> Mhm. >> And then you'd be home by midnight. We'd start the thing over again. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So now you said those habits changed at some point. >> About six months. >> At six months. So at six months, did your hours change? Is that why these habits changed or did they change because or a combination of both? >> Um I it could have been a combination of both. I know because she was growing and she was eating more and they were encouraging the solid food so she can gain more weight. Um, >> so when she was growing, so now at six months, was she wearing 6T? Was she wearing age appropriate size diapers? >> Lengthwise, yes. But she wasn't filling them out with life. So she was wearing her 3 to six month clothing. >> And how would how do you feel about weight size? Was she okay or she >> I was a tad concerned, but then I remembered um I'm a mom, so she'll just worry about anything. >> Sure. And I remembered Elizabeth and how petite she was then and how she would fill in lengthwise but not widthwise until she was about a year. >> So what what was your tab concern? What was that? Was she just not gaining enough weight or was that the concern? >> It was possibly it was just um I think what got to me was seeing like other babies just so chunky and and always hearing like oh she's so small and I was like yes she's she's premature she's petite. Mhm. >> Leave it alone, you know. And then also, I forget like all these babies are formula fit. And there's nothing against formula. Sometimes mothers need to do it, >> but the formula is what chunks up the baby quickly >> and I just didn't do that. Um, so then I got it out of my head. It was just a little bit. >> So you had a little bit of a concern due to her weight, but not her length, but you weren't overly concerned. You got it out of your head because you realize that she's fine. Yeah. >> Tatiana initially describes Mary's deterioration as something that happened within only a couple of days, but the detective immediately challenges that timeline. He points out that the physical condition being described would be difficult to explain as a sudden change. Instead of confronting her aggressively, keeps narrowing the question until she has to reconsider what she previously said. This is important because the pressure is coming from the timeline itself. The more specific the detective becomes, the less room there is for a vague answer. And once those two days start becoming something longer, the entire story begins to change. So, exactly how long had Mary really been getting worse. >> Nursing and some oatmeal. >> How long was that nursing? >> The nursing was about 20 minutes. The oatmeal took longer cuz she was about 8 ounces of oatmeal. Um, and then I would uh I think the kids were still outside. I just um Oh, yeah. Um, resting my feet before work. I'm just standing for eight hours. >> That was at 1:30. Yeah. So then um 2:30 was when Mary was finished eating. >> 2:30 was the was the end of it and that's when I would change her diaper again and put her and put her down. >> Poopy diaper >> yesterday morning when I got her up for the day. Have you noticed a decline in poopy diapers? >> No. >> No, not at all. >> She feels surprised to me. I mean, this morning when I got her up, she had spit up and I >> So, yesterday morning when you got her up at 7, she had spit up. >> No, this morning. >> Oh, this morning. >> At 9 when I got her up when I tried to get her up. >> Yeah. I thought maybe she she choked on on her. That's why that's why >> what color was her stood up? >> Um it was foamy and and brown. So I thought maybe it was the the oatmeal and the fruit mixed in there. >> So where was the stood up at? >> Um the side of her mouth um um the side of her face. Did you is that that's what time you woke up? >> No. No, I woke up at around 7:00. The kids are very consistent with their wake up time at 7. >> And and she's always up at 7. >> Uh yes, except when she's going through a broken start. She'll sleep in to about 9 or 10. Okay. >> Which is why I went to check in on her at 9:00 and I wondered why she wasn't up yet. >> Okay. But last night when I came home, I I opened the door just a tad so we could make that noise. And >> yesterday you finished feeding her at 2:30. >> Yep. >> And you put her to bed at 2:30 and that was the last time you saw her cuz you went to work then? >> Yeah. >> Okay. But then you came home at 11:30 and when you opened the door, you saw movement from her. >> You're certain you saw movement? Absolutely. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Or else I would have >> So, did you go any further into that room other than just looking through the door? >> No. >> The crack in the door? >> I did not. >> Was it the hole in the door or the crack in the door that you looked at? >> It was a hole in the door. I didn't open the door completely. I just pushed it enough so it would make the noise. It's a very old creaky door. So, I pushed it enough. It makes the noise. It doesn't open the door completely. And she nudges because she hears it. And I just peek at her. I see her moving. Is she >> What did you When you say that you saw her moving, how did you see her move? Can you describe that? >> She was laying on her back still. Um, her blanket wasn't kicked off and I only wrapped it right around the knees down to her feet to keep her feet warm. Um, and she had her polar bear, but she likes to play with a polar bear before she goes to bed, so she kicked it off to the side. Um, she was laying on her back. Her head was turned to the left side a bit. So when I um pushed the door open, she jerked her arm a little and turned her head so I could see that her eyes are still closed. She was squinting a bit and then okay. And that's what that's what she does. >> And what time would that have been? >> Around 11:30 11:45. >> This is where the timeline takes its biggest turn. What began as a deterioration over just a few days gradually becomes something Tatiana acknowledges had been developing for roughly a month. That difference matters enormously because now the issue is no longer whether she suddenly realized Mary was sick. The question becomes how long the warning signs had been visible. Tatiana explains that she kept hoping things would improve. While the conversation also begins touching on her fear of doctors and CPS. The detective is slowly separating those explanations instead of allowing them to blend together. And once fear enters the story, the question becomes much more uncomfortable. What was she actually afraid would happen if she sought medical help? >> And she's tiny, >> Tatiana. We're all parents in this room, okay? And we all need to be honest. You remember in the car when I first talked with you and I told you that at the end of the day, we all need to know exactly, right? Okay. So, we need to tell her story. Okay? And I want you to think about this for a minute. I want you to think for a second and put yourself in our shoes. You're the police officer. You're the police detective. You get called out to that home today. You get called to my home or his home today. Okay? You the police officer. And then you have to go into that house and you have to look at that that precious little angel. Okay? Do you think she was healthy? Honestly, >> when you look at her size and you can see every single bone in her body, do you think she was healthy? >> We know this isn't easy, Tatiana, but we need to know what happened to her. What was going on? >> So, when did she start losing all that weight? >> But she she's lost so much weight that you can't lose it. Never seen a child that skinny. Never. And here's the thing. You're obviously a very concerned mom, but at what point at what point did you know what what point did you think something was wrong? Because I know that you knew something or you thought something wrong. You are an intelligent, educated woman. And at some point you felt something was wrong. >> Not until she I just I had so much maybe it was just delusional hope that she was getting bigger and our cheeks were getting fuller and she was just so happy these past couple days. >> So when at what point did she she she can't even weigh 8 pounds right now. She doesn't weigh 8 pounds. When's the last time that you actually inspected her that you looked at her? Tell me the truth. >> Every time when I changed her and I think I just may have been just just so blinded. I just >> What were you blinded by? Cuz I know Listen, you are an intelligent, articulate, college educated, early childhood development. You know, you know when you look at someone that something's wrong. I have a picture of her right here. I'm prepared to show you that tells you no medical treatment. As dumb as I am, I'm not near as intelligent as you. I can't speak the words you can speak. I am not you. And even I can look at this photo and I can say, "Whoa, something's wrong." It put tears in our eyes when we walked in there. It was that obvious. >> Tatiana, I'm going to be quite honest with you right now, okay? one parent to another, right? And I'm going to try and control my emotions. All right. I've been to a child death investigator school and I've seen photos. You clearly need help, too, though. >> You're going to be dealing with this. This is baggage. This is something that But all I want to know is what stopped you from seeking help. You knew something was wrong. What stopped you? Tell us the truth. >> I mean, are you guys that financially strapped? I mean, what is it? Do you not believe in healthcare? Do you I mean do you have religious beliefs? I mean what is it? >> We do have religious beliefs and I we just we were praying about it and and we have faith that >> When did you start praying about it? >> I mean when she was born but consistently and and heavily the past three three four days. >> So 3 4 days ago you started praying. What were your prayers? He's helped her gain weight >> as well. A very strong faith and I think God answers prayers. I'm with you on that. I also think God puts people in places to help people. But we all have our own beliefs. But here's what I'm saying is that you you guys knew enough was wrong to start heavily and consistently praying. Why didn't we seek help? You knew. >> I just No. No. >> Anything to Seth? Seth had him. No, he doesn't have a hold of her. >> Yes. But he was also very um faithful and and trust in God and and trusted that that it would be okay and didn't think we needed to bring her to a doctor. >> We knew how long did you know this? >> What the doesn't happen in 3 days? >> Tatiana now explains her decision through faith. She describes believing that seeking medical treatment could somehow reflect a lack of trust in God. The detective does not simply dismiss that belief. Instead, he tests the logic behind it. He asks whether doctors themselves could be instruments through which God provides help. When she agrees, he introduces a hypothetical extreme enough to expose where her reasoning has a boundary. Suddenly, she has to distinguish between faith and a decision that could place a child in danger. That distinction is important because it removes the easy explanation that faith alone dictated what happened. But if faith was the whole reason, then what was really stopping her from getting Mary help? >> Maybe two weeks ago. >> So about a month ago, you you noticed that her bones are all showing, right? And so is that when you started heavily praying? No, it was it was the past few days because about a month ago it would be like full and then you know two days later it' be sunken in but then within the day it' be full again but then the past few days it wouldn't fill up as quickly as as it used as it did. >> But listen, here's what I'm saying Mary. Listen, I get that. But her legs were as small as my pointer finger. So you that that didn't happen in 3 days. No. >> And I know that you know that and I know that you wanted to get her help, but I'm trying to just figure out when did this happen? I understand that maybe you started seeing some kind of symptoms a month ago, but when when did she consistently lose all this weight? When did she consistently become skin and bones? I think it was within the month >> she was always just so so thin and just can't. >> So you you thought you thought you lo you thought you were losing faith by thinking you needed to go to the doctor >> that you wasn't having faith in God to fix this. >> Mhm. >> I feel stupid about it now. >> So So I'm that's what we're that's that's what we're trying to figure out. Do you think I'm not ridiculing this? I just want to know. Do you guys think that that God doesn't want us to use doctors? >> No. >> So, you do you think God puts people in places to help us? >> Yes, I do. I believe that for sure. >> And you think doctors could be those people? So, all still I I I get what you're saying. But this what I'm telling you. Two days ago, I could have looked at this child and I could have said, "This child has hours to live." Two days ago, I could have looked at this child and I cut I probably would have thought this child has minutes to live. Two days ago, if I have seen this child in your hands, being a stranger at my snatched this child out of your hands and faced the consequences. That's what I'm trying to reason with is that you so but you didn't you didn't receive the help and you knew that two days ago. You knew you just said that you that she was probably what' you say beyond help or whatever it was two days ago. So what? >> Not beyond help. But >> at what point at what point in this illness did you think there's a good chance she's going to die? >> I didn't think at all that she was going to die. >> How could you not think that? >> Delusional. I just I don't have a reason why I couldn't think that. I was just being such a hopeful mom. I suppose I don't have a good reason for you. I'm sorry. >> What was your conversations like with Seth? You said a minute ago that you knew that he didn't want to go to a doctor. >> Yeah, because we've discussed it before that >> just discussed her conditions. >> Yes. >> When was the first time you guys discussed that? >> Maybe a month ago. >> So, a month ago is when What did you notice a month ago? Because I'm I'm certain you're the one because you said that you know Seth didn't want to go. So, obviously you're the one that brought up needing to go to the doctor. What did you notice a month ago? that she was almost 9 months old and just wasn't filling into her clothing like she should and you know we talked about it and you just have faith and just we'll keep feeding her like we do and keep nursing her and keep her active and she'll get there. It's okay. She'll get there. >> But let me ask you something. If Seth told you that God told him to sacrifice one of your children, >> which is >> So today at 9:00 you found deceased. What time were we called? >> I don't know. >> I think it was >> 11. A long time. Why? >> Cuz we called we called my in-laws first. Then >> the the time that the sheriff's department was called the responding your house was at 12:06. >> That's when they came. That's when they were called. >> The conversation now moves toward another important issue. Who actually made the decision not to seek medical care? When the detective asks about Seth's position, Tatiana explains that he also opposed taking Mary to a doctor. That subtly changes the dynamic. The decision is no longer being described as something she alone controlled. Responsibility begins spreading between both parents. But the detective keeps bringing the focus back to Mary's condition. Because regardless of who influenced whom, the physical warning signs were still there. And if both parents were aware that something was wrong, their shared explanation creates an even bigger question. Why did the one turn that concern into action? >> Um, for everyone, let me ask you a question. you you had been through some training or early childhood development schooling and stuff like that, correct? >> Yeah. >> Did you ever receive or go through any kind of like CPR training or or anything like that? >> I have. Yes. >> Okay. Let me ask you this. If you were driving down the road, kids are in the back seat in their car seats and you're driving down the road and you witness a car accident, what what are you going to do? And and there's people that are bloody there at the scene. What are you going to do? I and my kids are with me in the car. >> Mhm. >> Well, I if there's if they scream to pull over, I pull over. I would check to see if anyone's responsive and then I call the police so I can let them know what was going on and if there's something I could do, I I'd try. But I know that if there's any sort of injury that I'm not familiar with, I can't move the body. >> Okay. So, you know that you can call 911, right? >> Yes. So, then why not call 911 immediately when your child's not moving? >> That's what I don't understand. I think because it happened to me personally. I was just It was my my little girl. I just in shock. I I I'm sorry I don't have an answer for you. I was just so never could imagine that could happen. J >> Jason and I have been doing this a long time and I understand and I've seen it time and time again. Everybody deals with stress and reacts to things differently. But if there's one thing that I've I've seen in the course of of doing this job for a long time is there's usually never a hesitation to pick up the phone and call 911. That is a pretty ingrained >> rapid basic life saving response that is ingrained in everybody especially in our country because of our emergency medical system that we have. >> When did you first teach your kids about 911? >> When did I try? When did you first teach your children about 911? >> Um, less than a year ago. >> Okay. So, when you're doing CPR, you don't scream to Seth. Call 911. >> No. And I Wow. And I know that that's like the second step or the first the first step. What >> did you think by calling 911 that he would think your faith was less? >> No, not at all. Actually, I >> Okay, >> we just he called his dad first >> wiping the stove up from her face and then he went to contact his parents. I don't know how long that took. I was just after she wasn't responding, I was just sitting there rocking her. I don't know for how long. I I have no idea for how long. And then after he got off the phone with his dad, um his dad said, "Okay, wait until we are close." So, and then call the police so we can get there at the same time they do so we can help with any anything I suppose legally. So, um, the two plus hours of time that went by from discovery till 911, all all I know, and I'm just asking if you can think of anything else. All I know of is 10 minutes of CPR and sitting on the couch and sweeping the house. Is there any other activity that occurred? Again, some of the stuff is just so weird. We're just trying to make sense of it. >> I understand. I If I were in your position, I I would I wouldn't understand it either. And I'm having trouble gauging it as as well. I I've spent quite some time just just holding her and just just rocking her. And then I put her back down her bed and I put a blanket on her and then I checked on the kids, make sure they were clean. Did you put any additional clothing on her when you put her back in the crib? >> No, I didn't. >> So, what was in the crib is exactly what was in there. You didn't change anything. >> Oh, I'm sorry. By clothing, I just assume you meant what she was wearing on her that was left on her. I added her I covered her up fully and I added her little head her little head blanket. >> You What do you mean you covered her fully with clothing or >> with a gray blanket? >> Okay. Was that blanket in the crib prior or not? >> Yes. Up to her knees. They I put it I wrap it around her knees down to her feet just so there's no chance of over the head pulling and she's never done that before anymore. >> And what about this thing that you were talking about the head pillow or whatever? Where was that? >> It's just a comfy blanket. It was on the side on the rocking chair. I just watched. >> So that's the only thing that wasn't in the crib was that one? >> Yeah. And she had her polar bear in there. It was by her feet. >> Was talking about the hitting on the CPR and stuff like that. Did you receive what other kind of like developmental training did you receive getting your education in and childhood development >> nutrition all that? Um so >> lesson I'm sorry meal plans >> like how much that's why >> should be eating and I was I was happy with how much she was eating. She was eating so much. just like this is such a surprise to me. And is there an actual condition that prevents weight gain? >> Did you ever Google? >> Maybe I did and I didn't find anything cuz I I I would I would probably know and and if a doctor was >> you would have found a lot I think if you Googled it. I think you think you'd have found a lot on that. >> Let me ask you this. Do you think that you realize too much on WebMD and and Google as a parent? And so >> the conversation now moves toward another important issue. Who actually made the decision not to seek medical care? When the detective asks about Tessa's position, Tatiana explains that he also opposed taking Mary to a doctor. That subtly changes the dynamic. The decision is no longer being described as something she alone controlled. responsibility begins spreading between both parents. But the detective keeps bringing the focus back to Mary's condition because regardless of who influenced whom, the physical warning signs were still there. And if both parents were aware that something was wrong, their shared explanation creates an even bigger question. Why did neither one turn that concern into action? >> I suppose I should explain my concern. >> All right. Just just know we'll get you some water. Why you're using the bathroom? I'll walk you to the bathroom. I'll get you some water. Just know that we're going to be down. So, as long as we've been in here with you, we're you're probably going to be sitting in here. We're going to be down there talking to him. So, that way at least you're not wondering what's going on. It's just we're talking to him trying to get his side of this now. Okay. >> Are we in trouble? >> We don't. >> No, we don't know that. You guys are going home the same way you came. We told you that. You're not being arrested. All we're doing is we're just information gathering. I'm not going to sit here and lie to you and say that no, you're not in trouble because I don't know that yet. It this whole case has to still be reviewed. There's a whole process I have to go through. Um, hey, put her letter down real quick. We're going to get another detective in here to escort you down there real quick. Okay. >> Just just because it's a secured facility. All right. >> All right. We're just finishing up with Se. >> So, Seth basically said the same thing he said except for Seth that he he did say that You'd have to strap him and his family down to the table before a doctor could touch you guys. >> You don't agree with that? >> I >> You don't have that same belief? >> I do for the most part, but except for the I mean, if somebody had a broken leg, he tends to be a bit dramatic. >> Um, he grew up reading Shakespeare. >> Oh, yeah. >> Maybe you can tell. Yeah. Yeah. He's a smart guy though. >> Very. >> Yeah. >> And he's he's very passionate and dramatic. So I not surprised he said that. But um >> so he said that his mom starting to about a month ago has been telling him I don't know if she told you >> that that child needs some medical care. >> Yes, she has. >> How many times has she told him that? >> I don't know how many times she's told him. >> How many times she told you that? >> Once that I can remember. >> Okay. And how long ago was that? >> About a month ago. >> Okay. Last summer. Now, he said that she was just at your house, not this last Sunday, but the Sunday before that. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I maybe cuz we went to Golden Corral, so it could have been a few days before that and he could be mixing Sundays up. >> Okay. >> Um, but it was definitely within the month. It's just dates are a little >> So, within the last She was at your house. >> Yeah. And she still insisted on >> She still insist on. I mean, how many times does she insisted on it? >> Um, it was once that I only recall one time. It could have been twice sometimes because I um I I may have brushed it off the first time she mentioned it. My phone number just So that first time that you may have brushed off would have been how long ago? >> I do recall actually when we went to her house she was eating and then I about doctor. I told her, "No, we're not worried about it. We're just praying about it." She said, "Okay, well, her cheeks are looking fuller, so at least there's that. Keep on feeding her." >> She was saying that because of her weight. >> Yes. >> Mhm. Have you guys discussed her weight with you before? >> I only recall that being the first real time. >> Okay. When was the second time? >> Um, when she came to visit. I within the month. I trust said it was it was the Sunday before last. It may have been and I could we could have went to Golden Crowd Sunday before. >> Yeah. And it doesn't matter. >> Okay. >> And what did she say that time? >> She suggested and um she excuse me. She suggested that noted cheeks are redder and fuller. So um thought that she was taking her food well. All right. Well, we're going to try to get you guys out of here right now. I'm just going to step out and talk to him real quick and just make sure we don't have more follow-up questions so we don't have to keep bothering you tonight. So, let me just just take a couple minutes with him >> and we'll be right back with you. Okay. >> Um, I did use the restroom already. I'm sorry. I just I really had to go. >> Oh, no. That's that's our mistake. We we asked someone that was in there and he did this to us and he must have forgotten about you. So, Oh, that's fine. That's our mistake. Sorry. Now, the interrogation reaches one of its most difficult timelines. Tatiana says Mary was found unresponsive around 900 in the morning. Yet, the emergency call wasn't made until afternoon. The detective starts breaking those hours down instead of allowing them to remain one vague period of shock. He asks about PR phone calls, waiting, cleaning, and what happened inside the house. This is a powerful interrogation technique because broad explanations come much harder to maintain when they are converted into specific minutes. Shock may explain hesitation for a moment, but it becomes harder to explain an entire sequence of events. So, what actually happened during those missing hours before someone finally called 911? really your pee and poop. And then I think that was a distraction cuz right after that I was just like why did it take you so long to call? I just kept breeing with that answer. >> Too long >> to call the police after. >> Oh waiting out. I told you like six times was waiting for the lawyer to be there because we knew this would happen. I was counting down. It's hilarious. I think they must have heard me on the phone because I told my mom at 7:30 I'm getting up out of here. Um getting us out of here. That was exactly when they came through the door to come talk to me. >> Wow. you like I'll wait for I'll wait till 7:30, but we're not being charged. I'm here under my own compulsion. >> You know, I'm free to go. So, >> your parents just felt that? >> No, they went home. They had to go meet with a CPS worker in Grand Haven. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. I was just about to walk out of there and he said, "Hey, come on down here." So, I was going to be like, "Oh, he said five minutes. It's going to be another two hours." You know, he had me put my phone out the door. >> Oh, he did? >> Yeah. I went I got it. I don't know. >> We can let you just hold me in here indefinitely, but with my permission while leaving me communication. >> I saw the I saw like papers in the bottle cap and the lighter was out there. They told me to put me in the bathroom and it was like 20 30 minutes. I really had to go. I just opened the door and I went for that. They're they're trying to make you seem a lot more like a prisoner than you really are right now. You're here under your here under your own compulsion. I'm not sure. Yeah, >> there really not much they can do if we wanted to walk out right now. >> We're doing this as a show. >> Sitting in jail as a result of Welch's poor medical decisions should be a hint to Fouseari that he isn't an expert in the law either. But she is either easily swayed by his competence or so used to giving into him that she doesn't bother to argue. And not even for them, but for probably when we have to go up in front of a judge. See, that's all they want. They want a charge. They want something. There's got to be money involved. There's got to be a financial transaction some. It's like you can't you can't cook just bury your dead body. Got you got to pay somebody. You just gota the worst case we've ever seen. They were making and they were like, "We know your mom. We know you're a good person, but this is the worst case we've ever seen." What are you doing here, guy? to tell you, you know, like it wasn't junk full of growth hormones and steroids. I'm sorry. You know, you think I'm happy about it. >> These are authentic. >> Yeah, they were kind of like pushing me about the whole doctor thing. I was like, you know what the number one leading cause of death in this country is? messed up cuz they were only there with me for about like 10 minutes. >> Was it? >> They were trying to squeeze you and get you to say something, but I did them. Didn't work. So long. soundproof. So you took my phone, too. >> You have it right now. >> Tomorrow's Friday, great. probably should have told me, >> huh? really interested on me. Like to know where it is for you. Dang. You treat this like it's a murder case, man. Is that accident putting somebody in jail going to do? It's going to fill us out. That's what they're forprofit corporations. nonverbal. >> Who? >> Somebody. I said, "You haven't spoken to him then. He may have been shy, but he hasn't interacted with anybody. So, he wasn't he wasn't interacted with to be verbal." Like, >> put me on [ __ ] trial. >> Something changes when the detectives step away and leave Tatiana and Seth together. Without an investigator directing the conversation, their attention shifts toward what the police think of them and whether the detectives are trying to separate them. Seth talks about the interrogation as an attempt to label them bad parents while Tatiana becomes emotional and starts talking about the remaining children needing medical attention. That moment is revealing because the pressure of the interrogation appears to have changed what she is thinking about. The conversation is no longer only about defending what happened to Mary. It is also about what happens to the children who are still alive. And that raises a difficult question. What did the detectives make her realize that she hadn't confronted before? Purple. Doesn't bother me. I don't want to, but I'm also not a frown. It doesn't. It all do. I think that God told you, "Oh, no. If God told you to murder one of our children, would I let you do it? That would never happen. Why would you even ask me that? It's like just saying I know this person too. Like that's not a mix. >> Yeah, they try they try to religious extremist angle with me too. >> Super. >> They're looking for somebody something crazy. They're looking for the crazy. That's what they're looking for in a total dumb ass. They're just here to help, Ty. >> Just remember, they're just here to help. >> Well, I tell you, if you didn't say it so much, it made me believe you. >> Who you trying to convince? >> Yeah. Did they give you water >> tomorrow? You think that you'll be at home? >> There's You won't be at your parents in Grand Haven or anything? So, >> no. >> So, if I just drive cuz I'm not going to have a way to call you guys. So, if I just come up there, you guys will be there. Yep. >> Okay. I have a day off tomorrow. >> Dude, you have a day off anyway. All right. You probably take the rest of the week off or something. talk about it. Okay. >> No, I just I just I know I'm just what a mess. What a mess. I can't go for another day or two. How long did you take to grab your keys? >> Yeah, everything's just 2 minutes and five minutes and just grab puff himself up. I don't even know the truth. Don't know where God is or why on this one. I'll tell you what. Here are some awards I get for my service. Sorry, I need to stop. This gets a little tiring sometimes. today. >> When? >> Oh, when you went to go get the clothes. >> Yeah. >> Oh, what? >> She's getting married. >> He is the father for two children. >> Okay. >> They've been together 10 years. >> She said she wouldn't got back together. >> Good. >> Yeah. He's still a little quiet about his his walk, but she's encouraged him. Her father lives three miles away, but it's very 10 years ago when he said about that. >> By this point, the formal interrogation is essentially over. But the most revealing contrast comes afterward when Tatiana and Seth continue discussing what happened. They talk about how bad Mary looked and question why investigators took photographs and phone records. That matters because earlier the severity of Mary's condition had repeatedly been difficult for them to reconcile with their explanations. Now away from the detectives direct questioning, that severity is acknowledged much more plainly. The investigation had already moved beyond a simple question of what happened. It was now about what the parents knew, when they knew it, and what they chose to do with that knowledge. And ultimately, that is the question this entire interrogation leaves hanging. At what point did knowing something was wrong become impossible to ignore? >> There's a ticket on one shoe. >> I actually have some respect for them. I told my mom I was like, "How many [ __ ] cops can be staring around, standing around an expired life display tag and not even notice?" >> Yeah, they went all out on there. You're all keep Yeah, I tried to get him before anybody showed up. I figured they'd probably kill him, too. All right. Can we get out of here? You bring me a ride for a ride down here. They were hoping to take out you along and let you sit for a couple hours. Let you sit for a while before they came in and talk to you or they pretty much come right. Let me sit here 20 minutes. That's not very long >> cuz they're in here with you for a while. >> Yeah, they're like distract any time detailing coping habits from like birth to now. And the kids develop mentally and cognitively physically. It's all the way Yeah, they were like at the same time confusing like how they were doing. Mhm. >> I can't care what people like think of you or stuff because if you do, you'll get trapped and [ __ ] like that. >> Yeah. >> They're just Yeah. They're just trying to butter you up. >> You guys start. You guys ready to go? >> Yes, sir. >> All right. I'll give you a ride back up there. >> Thank you. >> You want another cup or anything or Okay. You all right? >> If you were watching closely, what do you think happened?