that day. I mean, she had he didn't stop with the belt at at some point. It was wherever he could hit her. Her legs, her back, anywhere. And if she screamed, it was he picked her up sometimes by her hair. Take her into the bathroom. >> Okay, take a deep breath. And this would just go on and on. And I [snorts] mean, he he wanted me to do it. He wanted me to shove her head under water. >> 2-year-old girl was found dead inside a plastic container. Her name was Riley Sawyers. But when detectives questioned her mother, they uncovered something far more disturbing. Riley had been beaten for hours, and her mother was there. Then just before everything ended, Riley said three words. I love you. Her mother's response would leave detectives with one haunting question. Why didn't she stop it? >> Um, a little bit. Um, I'm sure that uh you know what this is all about. Um, our interest is uh um the whereabouts of your child. Um, Riley. How do you spell Riley? >> R I L E Y. What's her middle name? >> Ann. >> Just an N or not a E at the end? >> Just AN. >> Okay. And the last name is >> Sawyers. >> Excuse me. >> Sawyers. >> S A W Y E R S. >> And how old is Riley? >> Two. >> What's her date of birth? >> March 11th of '05. >> Okay. I had um been talking with Royce who is my husband here in Texas. >> Okay. >> Um >> now this communication was this then by phone or internet? >> Both. >> Both. Okay. >> Yes. >> Where did you meet Roy? Did you meet him on the internet? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> In a chat room or something like that? >> Uh on an online game type of deal. Um, so I mean we had known each other for a while. Um, it started getting serious and he wanted to come and visit us. >> When do you do you recall and I don't mean to interrupt you when you met him on the internet? >> Probably towards the beginning of the year. >> Okay, that's good enough. Okay. Um, around the same time, uh, Royce asked if he could fly down, meet with me, you know, meet my dad, meet my stepmom, kind of thing. And at the U to last week in May, he did. So, he spent um, >> now, had you ever met him in person before? >> No. >> Had you ever seen any photos of him? >> Okay. He sent you something through the net and all that stuff. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. I had seen photos and all that, >> right? >> Talked to him. I had my dad go with me when I went and take him up to the airport. I He purchased Riley and I tickets to go and visit him in where he lives in Texas. Here. >> And where was that at the time? Where was he living in Texas? Exactly where y'all are at now? >> No. Uh >> this is Kimberly Trener, Wley's mother. And now sitting across from detectives, she has to explain what happened to her daughter and what she knew before Riley was found. >> No. Uh [sighs] it was Meranda uh apartments um off of 1960 and spring there. >> Okay. [clears throat] And when did you have y'all moved you moved out of there cuz you have a different address now? >> Yeah. Uh just like this past couple weeks. >> Okay. We moved in with his parents. >> Okay. Was there any specific reason as to why was it financial that y'all moved in with the parents? >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we mean it they knew in order to get Riley back, there was going to be attorney fees. And you know, they wanted to help him out as much as possible to try and get through this so they can get we can get Riley back. which they didn't know. They still don't know that that anyway. >> They don't know what >> they don't know Riley is baby Grace. >> Riley is baby Grace. >> I'm positive. >> All right. Talk to me about that. Please >> take your time. >> Yes. Okay. Did that frustrate Royce? >> Yeah, >> it did. Mhm. Well, then let me just ask you this. Had you ever seen him spank her? >> Yes. Um I mean he really kind to stay out of it at first. >> Okay. >> And say, you know, hey, you're the mother, but look, you got to do something. Um when we went to um that realtor about the new house, that's when it really really started with him. And I mean, >> what really started with him? >> We need to discipline Riley. >> Okay. >> Was she acting up when y'all were meeting with this person? Is that what this was about? >> Yes. >> Okay. And he became I don't want to put words in your mouth, but was he becoming short with her? Frustrated. >> Yes. Um we were in a little office with the glass door. And he actually said, "You won't want to sit down and, you know, sit and be good." Then he opened the door and left her out in the bigger room to run about while we were trying to sign paperwork. >> Okay. And [clears throat] I mean, luckily there were people out there and I could kind of keep an eye on her, >> right? >> But I mean, that was she's going in the other room cuz she won't sit. She won't stay. She won't stay in one spot. She won't eat anything. She won't let you sit sit her on her lap, you know. Um, he'd also been hearing it from his parents. His mom and his dad had seen how she says she wants things, which is normal. >> Mhm. >> And they would try to get her to say please or you know, and if you took something away from her, she would go into a crying fit. >> Mhm. in an unnecessary length of time for crying fit. >> Okay? >> And I mean, they saw this and they were telling Royce, "Look, you got to you got to do something. She needs to behave better than what she is." I mean, you know, and he told me he even got a call from the guy at the real estate office saying, you know, that 2-year-old was out of control. >> H okay. >> Running around, couldn't stand one spot. Her mother couldn't do anything about it. And I mean, I I was trying. She would run away. I Why don't you come sit on my lap? Let me do your hair. She'd sit on my lap for a couple moments. Off she'd go. And I I was not ever into spanking her. >> Mhm. >> I wanted to do the corner or something. >> Time out. >> Time out. Something along that those lines. and I had started doing that in Ohio. Um, [snorts] however, I wasn't quite sure how to deal with it when she was out in public, you know. Uh, and Royce wanted me to be more aggressive and to to do more than just put her in. >> Okay. Well, I asked you earlier, had you ever seen him spank her? How many times had you seen that? Up to this point, Kimberly has been able to keep Riley at a distance by talking about her as someone else's problem. But that changes the moment she connects Riley to baby Grace. Now, the detectives aren't chasing an unknown child anymore. They have a mother in the room who knows exactly what happened. [sighs and gasps] >> Um I'm not >> If you're not sure, that's fine. >> I'm not sure. Um, like I said, he usually tried to keep it to me, >> okay? >> Until he really started getting harassed by his parents, by, you know, the real estate guys calling saying, "Hey, this kid was out of control." And your wife sat and did nothing. >> When was it that y'all were going to this realtor about this house? How long ago was this? >> It had to have been in June. >> Okay. So, shortly after you guys got married. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Yeah. >> All right. Well, and let me just, you know, we we can talk some more and get more detail, but you said the grandparents, his parents do not know that Riley is baby Grace. >> Correct. >> How do you know that Riley is baby Grace? >> There. >> Okay. Tell me about it. Well, um, he had been getting all this pressure from everybody. He was telling me, you know, we need to get her discipline. Obviously, your timeouts aren't working. It's It's going too slow. There's maybe some improvement. I can't tell, but there's not enough to where I'm not still getting harassed about it. And so he suggested to me that, [snorts] you know, we start with the spanking. >> Um, I didn't really enjoy the idea. >> Mhm. >> And I mean, I did spank her. >> Mhm. >> But it was never hard. I mean, and if she was wearing a pull-up, she probably didn't even feel it kind of deal. And I mean, Royce just said, "That's not enough. You need to spank her harder. If you can't spank her harder, then use a belt." Which I never resorted to if he wasn't around. If he wasn't around, no, that's not what happened. He's not around. Hi, mouse. Maybe a spanking. Now, the day it happened, it was Wednesday, I believe, in July. >> Wednesday in July. >> 24th. I'm almost positive. Uh, he decided to stay home from work, called and said he wasn't feeling well, but he really wanted to stay home. and make sure I was disciplining Riley. >> Okay. >> Like he had told me, "Look, she gets bad, you go for the belt. >> You don't take it?" >> Are you saying he stayed home to for the purpose of making sure to work with you about disciplining Riley? he tell you that? >> Uh, I think originally it was going to just he wanted to stay home, but I I knew he wasn't completely convinced that I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing if she acted up and he wasn't home. >> So, he wanted to monitor your disciplining activities with Riley. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. Now, and I mean, prior to this, he did, you know, show me and introduce me. This is the belt. We're going to sit it right here. She's bad. You're going to have her go and get it for you and bring it back to you. And you're going to smack her with belt on her butt. >> Was it your belt? His belt. >> His belt. Um, and I mean he did this mostly. He came home at night, saw she would do something. So I wouldn't respond right away and he took it upon himself, told her get the belt. He was also trying to do the corner thing. Stand her in a corner, but she had to stand in the corner the way he told her. Feet together, hands at your sides. You don't do that. You smacked her with the belt on her butt. >> Okay. >> Now, before this date, she did have a black and blue butt >> before Wednesday the 24th. >> Yes. >> Okay. And I mean it looked like it was working. I I didn't approve of it. I didn't like it. I didn't like doing it. But he told her to go stand in the corner. No coercion. She did that. Feet together, hands at her side automatically. You know, I mean, she would go do that. So, it was working. [snorts] I wasn't happy about it. And he just said, "Well, we got that. We got to work on some other things, you know. And I know his mother saw her black and blue butt and told him, "No more belt. You use your hand." >> His mother saw this. >> His mother saw the black and blue butt and told him she doesn't want to ever see it again. You use your hand or the corner, something else. You don't use a belt anymore cuz she's black and blue. Okay. >> Um, and I I felt terrible about it. I didn't want her to be black and blue. >> I'm sure you didn't. >> You're doing okay, Kim. You're doing fine. >> But you just kept saying, you know, well, it's working and it works if I'm home, but if you tell her to go stand in that corner, she doesn't listen to you. So I know you're not using the belt when I'm not around. [snorts] So yeah, I think really that day did turn out to be he wanted to make sure I'm using the belt when I was supposed to because he could see he told her to go do something. Go stand in the corner. [snorts] She does it automatically like that because she was afraid. But I didn't have that yet and he was seeing that. And >> the important detail here isn't simply that Royce wanted stricter discipline. He wanted to be there and monitor whether Kimberly was doing it his way. That turns this from a disagreement over parenting into something much more deliberate. And once the belt enters the conversation, the situation starts moving in a very different direction. >> I wanted to make sure that she needs to to do that for you. She can do that for me. She can do that for you. And the reason why she's not is because you're not going after her hard enough like you should be. >> [clears throat] >> So that day he stayed home from work uh originally started to be you know um you can sit around watch some TV and [clears throat] you say please can I have you don't say I want you need to be polite and say please and then I mean it just escalated from there it. We tried, you know, he's telling her, you don't you don't say I want or I need you you ask for it and you say please. And he was trying to he said we need to break her. >> He used that term. Okay. >> He said we need to break her and make her do that. And he said look how well it worked with how she goes and stands in the corner. So, I don't know. How it escalated into anything she did if it wasn't what he wanted her to say. She got a belt whooping. He She screamed. She got a belt whooping. She got [clears throat] her head shoved into a pillow on her bed. around the couch >> face down. >> Yeah. >> And then he started to >> Now this is all happening on the same day. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And then it it started to be Well, that's not doing enough cuz she's still screaming. So he told me to go run some water in the bathtub, some cold water in the bathtub. And I did. And [clears throat] he said, "Okay, the next time she screams, we're going to take her into the bathtub." And of course she's going to scream the way he was hitting her with that belt. I mean, I accidentally got in the way of it and it bruised me once or twice that day. I mean, she had he didn't stop with the belt at at some point. It was wherever he could hit her, her legs, her back, anywhere. And if she screamed, it was he picked her up sometimes by her hair, take her into the bathroom, and he laid her in there. And he put her on the wall and she started to scream or he he had her stand up and wanted her to say a certain phrase like, "Can I have some milk, please?" If she didn't say it, he would smack her with the belt. And the moment she would scream, he would take her and shove her into the water. >> Okay, you're doing fine. Okay. And this would just go on and on. And [snorts] I mean, he he wanted me to do it. He wanted me to shove her head under water. [snorts] [snorts] And I found myself doing that and hitting her with the belt because he was there. Because that's what he was doing. And I mean, it just seemed like it went on and on and on and no matter what she did, she was going to get smacked with And [snorts] at some point at some point he stopped it. But he stopped it so he could give her some Tylenol and put ice on her on her bruises and have her lay on the ice packs and we didn't have enough ice packs. And we had some freezy pups that he he laid down on a blanket on the floor to to let her lay on. And so it had it had stopped [snorts] and he said, "We're just going to I think we've done enough for today and we're just going to take care of her now." and nice. >> Notice how quickly the punishment becomes a system. Riley is given a specific phrase to Pete and failing to say it brings another hit followed by the water. That's more than losing control in a single moment. There's a pattern being established here and Kimberly is now describing exactly how that helped to get her bruises down and and the Tylenol and he put he had some bofreeze to make her her numb that he put on and I thought it was over but for some reason and I don't know but it he started it up again. >> He did? [snorts] >> Yeah. >> Okay. But you don't understand why. You don't recall her crying or anything like that? >> No. I I don't I don't remember why it started again. >> Okay. But this time, I think it was even worse on her [snorts] cuz he went and he switched out belts. This this one he was using wasn't thick enough [snorts] and [clears throat] he took the a thick leather one. >> He He's now started using a thicker [snorts] Okay. a thicker belt. >> Yeah. >> Was it a dress type belt or like a western style belt? >> Um, it was black. [clears throat] Um, an interwoven heavy leather. The kind where it doesn't really have holes, but you can, >> right? >> You can put it through wherever. >> Does he still have this belt? >> Do you know where it is? >> He threw it out. >> You don't know where? [snorts] Okay. What about the first belt? Yeah, he threw that one up, too. >> Okay. Do you know where that belt is? Okay. >> Can you before you go any further, can you describe the first belt? >> Um, [snorts] brown, >> excuse me. >> Real thin leather. >> Brown. Real thin. >> Yeah. >> Okay. You remember the buckle? What color the buckle might have been on either one of the belts? Um, I think the brown one might have been uh gold and the black belt was um >> silver color. >> Silver. Yeah. [snorts] >> Okay. Go ahead. I'm sorry. >> It's okay. >> So, it started up again. >> It It started up again and it was even harder cuz it was a different belt. It was thicker. It hurt more. and he just kept hitting her if she didn't say what he wanted her to say. At at this point, it was mommy asked you a question, you answer her with yes ma'am or no ma'am. I ask you a question, you answer me yes sir or no sir. And all he wanted her to say was, "Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir." And he was screaming at her to say, "Yes, sir." She didn't say, "Yes, sir. Sir, she was hit with a belt." >> Where? >> Anywhere on her body. She was standing up. It It did start. You go over to the couch. You bend over and he does it. But now it was she's standing up. It just wherever skin is exposed. >> Okay. Do me a favor if you would put your purse down and show me exactly how he would swing this belt, please. >> Okay. >> If you can remember. [clears throat] >> I know he was standing up. I I think it was >> Would he fold the belt like it was double or did he just use one end of it? >> Um [sighs] I think it was just one end. >> Was it the end with the buckle or the end without the >> end without the buckle? >> Okay. >> Um >> but he would swing the bell. He wouldn't swing it like you just did. How do you swing it? >> Um, >> if you have to stand up, that's fine. >> He He had it and it was just as hard as he could. >> As hard as he could. >> As hard as he could. >> And he was standing up when he would do it just like you were. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. So, she was on the couch and he would hit her anywhere on the body. Well, it if she was on the couch, she was leaning over the couch and he would hit her on her butt on the bottoms of her her legs and sometimes it it would hit um I mean he had done it so much he was complaining that his shoulder was hurting. >> He said that >> yeah it his his shoulder is hurting from all this. Um, but I mean it at this point she was standing there in front of him and if she didn't say yes sir when he told her to say yes sir, he hit her and wherever it would land on her arm, on her leg, anywhere if she would scream it would be back to the cold water. Uh, >> how much water was in the tub? >> Um, [snorts] [sighs and gasps] it was filled a good halfway. >> Halfway. Okay. And it was cold. Cold water. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Was she naked during this time? >> Okay. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> All right. Go ahead. Uh, [clears throat] but I mean it it just got to a point where she didn't say yes, sir. You You say yes, sir. Right now. You listen to me. I asked you a question. You say yes, sir. She didn't say anything. She'd be hit. Uh, I mean, and if she tried to run away, it [snorts] got to the point where, he would go and and grab her and and throw her across the room or he he would go after her with the belt and and take it around her neck and dry her back to where she was supposed to be standing. When you say he would throw her, how would he do that? I mean, [snorts] would he just pick her up and throw her? Would he grab her by the arm and throw her? Can you Can you >> uh >> be a little more detailed? >> Um, it I I guess it depended on what he could grab if she was running away. Um I mean I >> do you remember? >> Not really. >> Okay. Well, it might come back to you. >> Okay. >> Um I I remember it hitting so hard one time you could hear it a crack on the floor. You could hear. Okay, explain that again. Now, you would do what? >> Uh, we have all tile floors and the one time I you could hear her smack on the floor >> when >> he accidentally did it. I I'm not I don't really remember during all this when it happened or or or why it happened or if it was was or wasn't. I I don't know. Um uh I mean it this grabbing her with with the belt around the neck. That was just the worst cuz you you could see how much she she just didn't know what he wanted. And just there was a point where >> this is one of the hardest details to explain away because Kimberly says Riley was already being treated resting on ice and given medication. She even says she thought it was over. Yet the abuse starts again without her remembering any new trigger. And this time she says Roy switches to a thicker belt >> point where [snorts] during this she said I love you and it stopped for a brief moment. >> She said that to who? >> She had said that to me. I I think she had said that to him. Um, [snorts] but the next time it happened, he said, "She's trying to trick you." >> She tried what? >> She's trying to trick trick me cuz it at some point I was, you know, using the belt. >> Mhm. And you know, he he said, "You you can't let her say that and let her control you and and make you stop." He said, "She's trying to trick you." >> Okay. And when you said she tried to trick you, is that your understanding or is that what he's trying to tell you? >> That's what he's trying to tell me. >> Okay. So he's alluding to by her saying that she is trying to trick you into >> stopping >> stopping. [clears throat and cough] >> Um I'm just trying to remember if there is anything Anything [snorts] else that happened? >> How many Let me ask you this. How many times you [snorts] said a while ago that you could hear her hit the floor? Okay. Do you know how many times this may have occurred? Um, I know for sure once was really hard, but it was at least a couple more times. >> Okay. And this is when he would throw her or slam her. Is Is that what you're saying? Okay. >> Yeah. [snorts] Um well, and when it got to a point after one of those times, he had pulled her back with the bump around her neck. He had pulled her over to the the chair he was sitting in and told her to stand up. That's when she couldn't. >> [snorts] >> She couldn't stand up. >> Why couldn't she stand up? >> She didn't It It looked like she didn't have control over her legs anymore. And I was concerned [snorts] about what I was seeing. And he did stop at that point, but he he stopped. But he told me, "This is just another app." Two tabs >> for children. >> For children. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Um she had had this terrible problem with uh liquid ibuprofen. She would see that that little cup of orange liquid and she would scream and run and there was no way you were getting that in her. And that was something he wanted to work on that day too. And I remember um one of the times we were in the bathroom, it he had told me to go get the ibuprofen and bring the little container and he poured some in and and she would scream, "Hey, put her under the water until I mean she got to a point where she was grabbing for that cup." Mhm. >> to put it up to her mouth. And it wasn't always medicine because it once he got enough medicine into her, he he started to reiterate it with water in there. Um but anyway, he had given her the chewable henol and she was having problems, [snorts] chewing and swallowing it, right? >> [snorts] >> And and I really think that that was the point he he realized, you know, she's not faking this. >> By now, the story has moved far beyond punishment. Kimbley is describing a child being repeatedly exposed to cold water while already badly injured, and she remembers Riley responding with, "Yir, that detail matters because it shows how completely the situation had shifted. The goal was no longer correction, but obedience through fear. >> She can't be faking this. >> [snorts] >> and he started telling me, "Well, we can I sat down and I said, "We have to call the police and we have to call 911. We have to get her to the hospital. Look at her. She's There's something wrong." and he said, "No, we can't do that because we'll go to jail." So, he had me sit on the couch and he brought her over to me [snorts] and I was holding her and he was watching her and making sure she was still conscious and still breathing and her heart was still beating. And there came a point where she stopped breathing and he started doing CPR on her on the floor and he is just only I can't keep doing this on the chest. compressions with the breathing because she her heart's still beating. She's just not breathing. And he said, "Well, she's got to be choking on that that Tylenol we just gave her." >> Who said that? >> He did. >> Okay. >> Twice. So, he was sticking his finger down her throat trying to trying to find it, trying to see if it was really there. [snorts] And he couldn't find it. And he had me try and I couldn't find anything. And >> when he would do that and you did that, would she try to gag back? >> No. >> No. And he eventually just had me sit on the couch and handed her to me. >> [snorts] >> And I could just feel her going cold. And we had a heating pad on her cuz we thought she was so cold from from the ice that she needed to be warmed up. That the heating pad would help wasn't helping. And she [clears throat] she nd my arm and she'd stop breathing. Then her heart eventually stopped beating [snorts] and she had died in my heart and everyone said we couldn't do anything cuz look at her. She's black and blue. >> What What did y'all do with Riley then? Uh well, [sighs and gasps] [snorts] >> okay. >> He'd wanted to >> go ahead. >> He'd wanted to put rocks or bricks or something in there, but I don't think he ever did. I'm not sure if if he ever did or not. >> What happened to the gloves? if he used the gloves. >> Yeah. Yeah. He took them back home and they were >> This is where the language around Riley becomes especially disturbing. Kimberly describes telling her that she loved her while at the same time saying Riley was trying to trick them. Those two ideas shouldn't fit together. Yet, they exist side by side in her account just before Riley reaches the point where she can no longer stand. >> They were thrown out with just a regular bag of trash. smart. Does he watch a lot of those police shows? >> Mhm. >> He He said he >> he watches Law and Order, CSI. He said he took some courses in in um back in college. Um I'm not sure it what exactly but he said some he had taken some courses and he knew um that he had to do certain things. >> Have you written any of this stuff down, Kim? The only thing I I wrote him down was when he told me to write my story about Riley being taken by CPS and then again he told me to write my story that I did it all. would you be willing to make a phone call to him that is recorded and um maybe talk briefly about this? The point I'm trying to make is this. A phone call to him and somehow bringing up something about this case would help tie him in. I keep going to the fact that you've got to help me build a case on Roy. Okay. For instance, maybe you can say, "I don't know what to say, but there's apparently a hair that was found inside the bag. What do I do or what do I say?" Would you would you feel comfortable asking him that? And do you think he would give you an answer? >> Um, [clears throat] >> not so much that you're talking to the police. >> Maybe not get that direct. Maybe just get into the fact that >> the police they we're here. They now want they want to talk to me. I think there's something they know something's up. >> What What do I do? You know, what do I do? >> He told you what to say. >> He told me what to say to Tom. >> Right. And what he told you to say to Tom, that's written down. >> Mhm. >> Okay. And that's written what is written down on the spiral notebook at the house. >> Uh an account of what happened to Riley um and my handwriting saying that I did it all and he was at work and has no idea. >> Does he know where this notebook is? >> He knows I brought it with me. >> Okay. So, a while ago you said it might still be at the house now. >> There are two different notebooks. Okay. Where's the other one? >> The other one is at the ends lane. >> Okay. >> And what's [clears throat] in that one? >> That one is an account of Riley being taken by the Child Protective Services. >> Oh, okay. Kind of what's in this letter >> that was drafted. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Does he know that's there? >> Um, I don't think he knows that that one's there at the end. >> Okay. That was your your somewhat I guess dueling of trying to get your thoughts together how how you wanted to do that. >> Yeah. He wanted me to write that down because that was the story of what happened. >> Okay. And once you converted it to the computer, you deleted that. >> Well, um it's not a copy of the letter in that handwritten notes. >> Once you converted those notes to what you wrote in the letter, >> it's not It's a account of saying I woke up that Friday morning. Uh there was a knock at the door. Child protective service agent and she had this letter that said Royce had sexually abused her or Riley or whatnot. Um [snorts] she I let her in after talking with her briefly, pushed me with she away, grabbed Riley and and left and and then next page was um saying uh there was a page about what this person look like supposedly and then there was a page of Rob his name, his his mother's name, relatives that are in Ohio that could possibly be hiding. Riley, >> let me ask you this. At any time since the death of your daughter Riley to present, have you been concerned at any time? >> By the end of the interrogation, Kimberly's story had come full circle. She had admitted what happened to Riley, described her own involvement, and even revealed that she had tried to change her story. But when detectives finally asked if there was anything else to add, her answer was simple. I don't think that's it. >> At any time for your safety with Royce. Now, think hard about that question. I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but have you been concerned that he might do something to you? I was concerned he he might leave me with nothing, you know, in in Texas where I don't know anybody. Um, let me ask you this. [snorts] Why haven't you said anything sooner about this? I couldn't I put it in the back of my mind. I was living with him and he would know if I said anything. >> Excuse me. >> He would know if I had said anything. I didn't even have to tell him. He knew that I said something to him. [snorts] >> He knew. He he knew I was wasn't acting right. He would know if I had said anything before that. And I mean, and not to get off subject, but also that night he had tried to commit suicide >> last weekend. >> Last weekend. Yes. Okay. >> He had also had the gun sitting there on the [snorts] side on the side table um next to the bed. And at one point he picked it up and pointed at his chest and made me hold it and was trying to get me to shoot him. Because because >> this is Royce Ziggler, the stepfather of 2-year-old Riley Sawyers, known to the world as Baby Grace. After Riley was found dead, Roy sat down with detectives to explain what happened. And as his story began to change, investigators started pressing him on what really happened inside that house. >> I just got home from work and he pinpoint told me about this baby Grace thing on TV. >> Your brother told you about it? >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Because when I come home, I don't watch TV. I just go straight to bed. >> And it's all And it was a Friday afternoon. and I had just gotten home and I just had a hard week because of these new things that I'm having to do with the new role. I'm having to put together these KPIs for the month of October. So, I was trying to get that all together. So, I came home a little late Friday and bam, I get hit with this and I'm just like, wait a second. So, I started asking my wife about it. She tells me, confirms to me that the CPS, they she's up in Ohio. And then now her father and her stepmother have seen Riley with Cheryl. >> When did they see this? >> In October. She just blunts out and tells me. And then basically I asked Mr. trainer though, you know, keep your eyes open. If you see them with Riley, call the police. So, he starts following around. And then just last Saturday, he calls me, says that he sees Cheryl buying some baby girl clothes. >> When did he call you? >> He called me the last time was this Saturday. pass that >> to say to tell you that he saw Cheryl buying little >> baby girl hoes and he doesn't have a b she doesn't have another baby girl. >> She has a grandson. The only granddaughter she has is Riley. >> Mhm. >> So you're saying you talked to Kimberly's father? >> Yes, sir. >> Last week? >> Yes, sir. >> And he tells you this? >> I think it's on my phone. God, I hate these things. I've gone through three phones in the last two months. 1120. That should be this number right there. It's a 440. >> 440. >> And that is Kimberly's father. >> Is she still married to Cheryl? Is he still married to Cheryl? >> No, he's not married to Cheryl. Kimberly's father was never married to Cheryl. >> Oh, that's okay. Cheryl is >> the >> Robert's mother. Okay, I got it. Were you aware that this document, this letter that you claim was found uh and some stuff at the storage, it looked fake to me. But because of what it says on there, it scared the [ __ ] out of me. First off, I know they should have put a date on there. How about if I told you that I'm not thoroughly convinced that what you're telling us is the truth. You are going to help her with this child custody thing to try to retrieve Riley. Why would you remove every single thing in your residence that's remotely connected to that child and throw away That would be something you'd ask him. >> I'm not asking Kim. I'm asking you. That's your house. >> I asked Kim to pack up the house and put what we need to put in storage. She did most of this work on putting packing up stuff while I was at work. >> Okay. So, you're saying that all the baby stuff is in storage somewhere then? It's either in storage or you need to ask him because I don't know what happened to it. >> Are you going to go to the storage? >> I've went to storage once. >> Sorry. Twice. Oh, one time I went there to go drop off some items just to put it in there and to see how much room we have because I was thinking about moving the furniture in there. The second time I went in there was because I needed to get something out of storage that Kim put in one of my files that was in storage that I needed badly. So, I had her come with me to the storage, pull it out real quick, and then we left. >> Have you talked to the media about this case? I've made a mistake in telling some facts on my that I know to ABC, but I wanted them to go away. >> And what did you tell them? >> I just told them, "Look, we're just fighting a custody battle case. I would rather you guys just leave us alone." You know, there was a Yes. Because they already knew that there was a letter. They knew there's some other stuff. I just said, "Yes." Okay, that's true. But you need to I don't want to be put my name out there cuz I didn't want them spamming this sexual abuse stuff on TV with my name. >> Where do you shop at? When you go shopping? >> Me? >> Mhm. >> Walmart? Best Buy? >> You go to Walmart pretty regular? >> Just once every couple of months. Which Walmart? >> Uh, the one on Spring Cypress and 249. >> At first, Royce's explanation sounds like he's trying to place himself on the outside of what happened. But listen closely to the way the conversation develops. The detectives keep bringing him back to the same question. What did he actually know and when did he know it? That distinction matters because simply saying you weren't responsible does explain what happened inside >> 249. sometimes the one also on uh Kurpendal and 2920. [snorts] >> Are you aware that they uh they document every transaction? >> Yes, sir. >> Cash or credit? >> Yes, sir. >> And video? >> Mhm. >> Okay. Okay. >> I used to work at Walmart as a cashier, >> so I know they documented everything. >> Yeah. There are some problems. Okay. >> And here here's a Royce. This is where it's getting really serious. Okay. We're going to give you an opportunity to correct the errors that you have made. Okay? And I suggest highly that you correct those errors because remember what Lieutenant Hans told you a lot of the questions that we ask we already know the answer to. >> Right. >> There's lots of things that have been told to us that you don't have a clue about. >> Right. >> All right. Basically sitting in this room right here is about 60 plus years of law enforcement experience. >> Yes, sir. >> We've interviewed thousands of people. Okay. Thousands of people. Thousands of people just like yourself. Okay. We know when people are making errors, >> right? >> Okay. You're going to have an opportunity and you need to get it square because what you're telling us ain't cutting it. Do you do you believe that baby Grace is actually baby Riley? >> I really don't know, officer. Yes, you do. >> No, I don't. I wish I did. >> Bryce, >> do you think that child abuse and the killing of a child is serious? >> Yes, sir. Do you think that the average citizen or juror or 12 person sitting on a jury take those type of crimes lightly in a court of law? >> No, they don't. >> No, they No, they don't. No, they don't. Okay. Now, when someone is involved in one of these type of crimes, most of the time, and in fact, just about every time, they're not done. There wasn't a plot or a scheme or a scam or this heinous thing to kill this child, >> right? >> It just happens. Things get out of hand. People get out of hand. Tempers get out of hand. Sometimes there's drugs, alcohol involved, but things get out of hand and next thing you know, something's happened >> and people It's happened. >> Roy, you see where I'm going with this? >> You need to tell us what really happened. >> I told you what happened. I never I did not harm Riley to kill her. I never did that. >> Well, I don't believe you intended to. I really don't I really don't believe it. I do not believe you intended. >> Are we assumining I'm a suspect here? >> Let's just say that. How about this? >> I didn't. >> Let's go back to Walmart. How are you going to explain? How are you going to explain? And we we'll have them here shortly. The records from Walmart were you and her at the same time independently in two separate baskets purchased and in fact the same checker checked her out and then closed hers and wind up checking you out buying the Starite blue plastic tub, the garbage bags. and so on, so on and so on. We getting warm here. >> Those are just >> Do you not understand what I'm telling you, son? >> I understand what you're telling me, sir, but I >> You're fixing to get in way way way over your head. >> What I'm trying to get at is you need to show some remorse and get straight. >> Yeah, I am. You're you're you're you're burying yourself. You're burying yourself. Okay. I'm in here. You know, I thought we had a pretty good talk on the way down here with with on the way down here when we come come down here. But, you know, if you want any help from me, you're gonna have you're going to have to come up with with the truth. >> You're gonna have to come up with a truth. Um, >> I'm going to tell you I'm going to tell you, Royce, it's it's not going to look good if you continue to sit here. >> Here's what's going to happen. Listen to me. You You by your actions by your actions and things that you have done and said have placed your family, and I'm not talking about Kimberly, the rest of your family right square in the middle of this. They recognize what's going on. Your dad recognize it because he's had issues about things. The stories changing about what's happened and what happened supposedly to baby Riley. [snorts] Your mother has recognized things and even your brother has had a confrontation with you about this. Now, these aren't people that can say, "I plead the fifth and I don't want to talk about it." They're going to have to talk to us either in a room like this or before the grand jury. Okay? In fact, they're on their way down here right now. You aware of that? Your mother, your father, and your brother are on the way right now. And they can't say, "I plead the fifth. I want an attorney." Cuz that doesn't work for them. Right? [clears throat] >> Okay. They're going to have to tell us everything that they know and everything that they have seen that has occurred. And they are very clear to the fact of your story and everything that you all conjured up about what happened to Baby Riley is total absolute fabrication. All the way down to the bogus letter. Okay. All the way down there. We we we're on to this now. We know that you watch CSI and all that stuff, but you're just not quite there yet, buddy. >> I'm not >> You're not quite there yet. >> Now, do you want to try to work this out as best possible and or do you want to be looked at as some type of >> This is where the interrogation changes. The detectives are no longer just asking Royce to remember what happened. They comparing his version against the details they already have. And every time his explanation shifts, they have another detail waiting behind it. At that point, the pressure isn't coming from one question. It's coming from the fact that his story has to account for all of the evidence at once. >> You know what's fixing to happen here? >> You We're fixing to run some search warrants on your house. Your mother's house is being done as we speak. Okay. All that's already that's in motion. Okay. And we've already collected some evidence to clearly resolve this in a relatively quick fashion. Okay? And I'll tell you right now, no, Kimberly is not going home. Kimberly's going to jail. Okay? Now, you're not going to be far behind her, but how we handle this and what you're charged with is going to be up to you and how you want this to go. Okay. Now, when you start talking about injury to a child, >> Yes, sir. tampering with evidence and all these other things. This could be an endless stack of [ __ ] for you, >> right up, including capital murder. Or or we could try to handle this accordingly and talk about [ __ ] happened. [ __ ] went south that day. Let's talk about Riley. Riley had a discipline problem, did she not? >> Yes, >> she had a discipline. >> I wasn't there that day. >> What is that day? What is that day? >> The day that the 29th of July, I was not there. I swear to God, I could give you my time sheets. It would prove it. That's because the 29th means nothing to us. The 24th. 29th was too late, wasn't it? >> What day did you take off sick? [snorts] >> I took off sick like a Wednesday. >> That's right. And you took off sick that day, >> right? >> That's right. And you stayed home that day. >> And I was in bed the entire time. >> It's not going to wash, buddy. >> We're going to be able to prove otherwise. >> You You just don't get You don't understand. You don't understand. >> I do understand. You don't. How about let's put it to you this way. Look, look at me. How would we know about you taking off sick? I know you call my work. [snorts] I know you guys know my work schedule already. I know you guys know where I buy my shoes. I know where you guys know where I get my clothes, where I get my haircuts done. See, I don't I don't think you're a bad guy. I really don't. I think I think something went wrong. Something went wrong and you snapped and it I don't know what >> Why does it have to be me snap? >> What happened? >> Why you guys What happened? Did she do it? Tell us about it. Hey, if she did it, tell us. Tell us she did it. >> What happened? If she did it, tell us your sad story. What happened to that child on July 24th, the day you were off? What happened? Are you saying that Kimberly did it? Tell us about it. Remember what I told you at the beginning of this? We're just as we're just as responsible to hear your side of the story and collect it. Okay? If you're saying you didn't do it and she did it, then what happened? But somewhere down the pike on that day, that baby come out of that house dead. We know that July 24th was the last day that child lived on this earth. So you tell us how it happened. So what happened? >> I wasn't there. I swear to God. >> Tell us what you know then. >> What do you know happened? What do you say happened? I wasn't there. >> Tell us what you know. [sighs] >> That morning I wasn't feeling well. I didn't feel like putting up a crap. [snorts] So, I went out for a drive and that's it. >> And then I came home later on that evening. Kim needed me to go get some supplies. >> Okay. >> So, okay. I just said, "Make a list and we'll go." And I said, "Okay. Where's Riley? She goes, "Riley's asleep. It's okay. We can be right back. It won't take us long." So, we go to Walmart, take the list, and that's it. >> That's not it. >> I come home. [sighs and gasps] Basically, I'm just fed up and tired. I gave her all her stuff, and I just crawled right into bed cuz I was sick and tired. I knew I had to go to work the next day. I didn't want to put up with any more [ __ ] And that's it. >> That's not it. >> Yes, that is. I swear to God. >> No, >> no, you know it's not. >> That's even worse than the first story. >> Come on, man. What happened? >> That's even worse than the first story you gave us. >> What happened, brother? >> Roy, you guys don't know what happened. I swear to God. Of >> course you do, Roy. >> I was not there. >> That baby was in your storage building for 2 months in that box. >> I was not there. I do not know. >> You didn't know that baby was dead in that store room for 2 months? I did not know what the hell happened. I did not know anything was going on. >> But you knew the baby was in that store room dead. >> No, I did not. I swear to God, >> Royce. Royce, look, you need everyone realizes what's happened here. No one wants to make you the bad guy here, but you're not helping yourself by coming up with these stories that are very contradictory to everything else that's being said. >> Rush, did you All right. Wait, you said you're you started saying you're not coming up with stories when in fact you are, are you not? >> Kim is the one who told me about the CPS deal. I swear to God. >> Okay. You know, you told me in the truck coming down here. You told me in the truck. >> Royce keeps denying that he knew Riley was dead, but the detectives keep returning to the same contradiction. The evidence places him closer to what happened than his story does. Then the detective tells him, "You're keeping it right there." At that moment, the pressure shifts from defending his story to explaining what he already knows. >> The truck that you were having a lot of problems, stomach problems, stress, so forth and so on. Do you realize why you're having all this stomach problems and all this stress? >> I've been having stress for many, many months before. >> That's exactly right. That's you've been having you've been having stress and stomach problems and stuff for many, many months. You know why? You know why? >> Why? >> Because you're keeping it right there. You're keeping it right there. You've got to let it out, son. >> It's going to eat you alive. >> It's going to eat you alive. You know what's going to happen next? If you don't tell somebody about it, you you got You told me in the truck that the doctor almost prescribed you anti-depressants. You know why? Because you're keeping it right there. Are you Catholic? >> Yes, sir. >> You're keeping it right there. Do you believe in heaven? >> Yes, sir. >> You believe in hell? >> Yes, sir. >> You believe in God? >> You believe in forgiveness? Yes, sir. >> You have to ask for forgiveness. You're not You're holding it all in. You're keeping it all back. You're not getting any forgiveness until you let it out. Look, we know that Riley was a problem. We know about there was problems with Riley before you ever came into her life. Okay. We also know that Kim >> What do you see here? Look closely at Royce's story. Do you think his explanation counts for everything the detectives uncovered, or is something still missing? Tell me your theory in the comments. And if you want more interrogation breakdowns like this, subscribe to Verdict Interrogation.