of consent for him to be spoken to. >> He's a witness, so he doesn't need consent from >> Was he there? Was he in the >> But he's going to tell us about the relationship between you and his father. >> But I don't >> You don't understand. >> He's five. >> Well, he might not have anything to say, but >> No, I don't understand how this can all happen without me even knowing that anything happened in the first place. because we don't release children to abusive husbands that kill their wives. >> So, you're saying that I am abusive and I killed his father? >> I'm saying that this is police uh standard practice 101. We don't release children to people we don't know. >> I'm not asking you to release him. I am asking why I was not contacted in any sort of form about my child's whereabouts or that there was even an incident. I don't know about that specifically. I know we wanted to find you and we were trying to track you down. >> You could have found me when you picked him up from school cuz they have my information. I pay for him. >> Devon and Jason once worked at the same post office. Once they lived for each other now. They wanted each other dead. And the one thing still connecting them, their 5-year old son. Then came AJ, a maximum security prison guard, Dean's new love and Jason's new enemy. The morning Jason was shot, AJ was there. He knew Devon was angry. He knew something could happen. And he had already warned Jason to watch out. But when investigators began reconstructing that morning, one question became impossible to ignore. If AJ knew something was coming, then who pulled the trigger? And more importantly, why did AJ keep certain things to himself? >> Here now. I saw my father's car outside and I'm not really sure why he's here. >> Your father's car? >> Yeah. Who's your dad? >> Um, his name is Raul. >> Raul? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Is he not allowed to see your kiddo? >> He's a registered sex offender, so he better not be around my kid. >> Okay. I >> I'm not sure who's where, but >> he's safe right now. We'll >> Who is he with? >> He's going to be with an officer right now. So, >> okay. because the previous officer that I spoke to on the phone said that he was with my sister and she doesn't have custody of him either cuz she's not his guardian. >> Okay. >> So, I need to know where my kid is and I need to know what's happening cuz nobody's telling me anything. >> Okay. >> Fair enough. I I don't know what's happening either. Um I just got here as well. I was just told come walk you in. So, I'm sure they're bringing somebody down. We're going to tell you what's going to happen. Do you want to take a seat for a second? You can stay standing if you'd like, but okay. It sounds like somebody's coming here. Just a second. Let me on their way. >> We can go see if they're in that way. >> I don't understand what happened. >> Okay. I I don't know what I I don't know what's happening either. So, I'm sorry. I'm just the meeting person. Do you have custody of your kiddo? >> Um, me and his father shared >> Okay. C shared half and half cuz >> Okay. Okay. >> Whatever. Whatever. >> And and we'll get all that taken care of and and figure it out here. >> Okay. We We definitely know your son is safe and and >> you know he's safe. I don't know he's safe. Nobody called me. >> Okay. >> I live in Fort Collins. Like I work in Loveland. I live in Fort Collins and nobody called me. I had co-workers I haven't spoken well past co-workers I guess that I haven't spoken to in years telling me that my father my son's father was in an accident. >> Okay. >> And that I need I should check on my kid and like nobody told me anything. >> Okay. >> So, Detective Desmond will be here in one sec and he's got more answers than I do. >> Where is my son? >> He is at the police department and he is safe with >> So, he's not here. This is the police department. He is here. So, >> why is he not here with me? I need him to be here with me. I haven't seen him and I don't know what's happened. He was taken from his school without my knowledge or consent. >> And I don't I don't know what's happened to his father. So, I need to Where is he? He needs to be here. >> Can I have the detective talk to you first? He'll explain what's going on. >> I don't Well, I don't know why he wasn't HERE WHEN I GOT HERE, but he need I need my son. I am worried about my son. He is 5 years old and I don't think any of you have told him anything that's happened. I don't even know what's happened. >> Okay, he's here right now so we'll figure out. >> Okay. All right. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Mind if I shut the door? >> Uh I mean I don't really care. I just I want my son. Where is my son? I'll tell you everything. Come up here. >> Steve. >> Um, you're Devon. >> Yes. >> Am I pronouncing that right? >> Yes. >> I'm Steve. You can call me Steve. Um, we got to kind of step back here a little bit. I got to tell you, um, some bad news. Um, your exboyfriend, is it? Ex-husband. It's >> just I just call him my son's dad. >> Son's dead. >> We were never married, but >> he died today. What? How? What happened? >> Someone shot him in the face. >> In the face? >> Where? >> On his postal route. >> He was working today. He doesn't. >> Yep. He was working and someone came up and shot him. >> When did this happen? 12:32 today. >> It is 6:00. >> Yeah. Um so it's kind of a long story. You know, in um 2021 and July, they changed all the laws saying we have to record everything in police um police work. Uh if we don't and you know, we get punishment everything. And I got a lot to tell you, a lot to share with you. I want to tell you that your son's safe right now. Um, but I want to uh uh read you your rights just so you know about it. Let you know that we're recording this cuz we have to, but we have to record everything. And uh just so um uh didn't play any games with you because I don't like to play games with people. >> Read me my rights. >> Yeah, just to get it out of the way. >> For what reason? Well, it's uh you know, your your uh your son's dad died today and so please typically look at the butler or the ex or someone who owes him a lot of money. So, we want to at least ask you some questions about him. Do our due diligence. I don't think he has a butler. Uh so, we got to rule the butler out. So, we at least got to ask you some questions about how he died. Maybe you know something about it. >> I I was at work today. >> Perfect. You got a good good excuse. um shouldn't be a big deal, but don't want to ask you about it. I want to exonerate you if possible and then move on to the next suspect, you know, do my job and see uh um you know, work. I mean, I'm sure you're concerned about his death and you want to investigate it fully. You don't want us to sweep anything under the rug. >> No, of course not. But I >> In police investigations, this is like standard 101 stuff. You You got to rule out the butler. You got to rule out the S. We got to rule out the bookie he owes uh he owes a lot of money to and uh start working it. Um it could just be a random shooting, but we got to we got to do a due diligence and figure it out and uh um our cases are reviewed by the DA's office and they want us to do it right. The people have a lot of pressure on us u making sure that we do the right thing and so I don't want to do anything because the case is so serious. I don't want to do anything to um violate your rights, anything like that. So, everyone, >> my rights and my son's rights were violated when you took him from school. >> The interrogation begins with a devastating revelation. But the real question is not how Devon reacts to the news. It what happens immediately afterward? She is told that the father of her child has been shot in the face. Yet within moments the detective is already establishing a controlled interview environment. He explains why she is being. Question tells her that he wants to exonerate her if possible and calmly lays out the reasons she has become a person of interest. At this point, nothing has been proven. But the psychological battle has already begun. The detective wants Devon to believe that cooperation is still her path out while quietly making it clear that investigators >> packages. Then obviously I'm I'm not doing that. But I I did stop and Right. I did stop at his house for my lunch break. Sort of. >> I think you're a good person, but something's not right here. I think the gig is up. There's something weird going on here. Everything is pointed to you being involved in this shooting. >> People don't go around just shooting most of people. Um >> I mean I've I work for the post office and I have before and I have been >> supposedly you're on video two weeks ago breaking the lawn post office. >> That's a separate >> didn't break in. I work for the post office. I'm allowed to go in. >> But who cares about that? That's just a stupid burglary. >> Burglary? >> Yeah. Let's talk about the homicide. Why? Why? What's your involvement in this? Because I think there's a lot more than you're telling us. The video of the shooter looks kind of like you. It's from a distance, but it looks like your height and your build. It doesn't look like AJ's height and build. Doesn't look like Castana's height build. Looks like your build with a black hoodie. Now, we're going to search your house. We're going to search your car. We're going to seize your car. Um, we're going to do a gunshot residue test on you for >> Sorry. Go ahead. >> So, we're gonna we're not going to leave any stone unturned, but we're going to get to the bottom of this. And this is your route to tell me what type of involvement you have because it's very concerning. Your car being there, you turning your your uh scanner, not not bringing your scanner and GPS not moving during the homicide. You're getting served just the other day with >> custody papers. I got an email about it saying that they were going to file something >> on like the 11th. Yeah. So it was essentially a co notice of change in custody something. >> Well, I just got an email saying that we were going to have to go to court for it. >> Okay. Um, so what's going on here? Are you behind this homicide? Is AJ behind the homicide? We got two different cars, it looks like. >> Two two different cars. Yeah, it looks like there's a car leaving the scene of the crime. Maybe it's just a a um a witness who saw the shooting and getting out of there. Maybe it's the shooter. We saw your car in there moments before the shooting. Um and there can't be that many Nissan Rogues that are 2017. Uh they're missing the front passenger cab. So, you're involved in this. Okay. You got I want to know what your involvement is. Did Did a boyfriend try to tell you that he's going to take care of this? Were you involved in it? Because someone is there doing this. It's not a random shooting until the gig is up. Okay. >> I was I read on the way here about a about what happened and they said that a man shot him. >> That's what we originally thought. Yeah. Now we're thinking it could be you. >> We're thinking it could be maybe a boyfriend. >> Thank you. That's not the question. That's not the right answer. >> We're trying to >> We're trying to get all this evidence together. We're trying to put the pieces together. And I don't think you're being truthful with me. And I want to know why your car is there, why you're why you're not using the scanner, why why the scanner was left there. It looks like you're involved in this. So tell me why you're not involved in this. The whole thing about staying at your boyfriend's house for three hours uh isn't doesn't seem very incredible to me. So I'm asking you, did you have AJ do something? Do you think AJ was involved in something like this? Do you think Castanada? Or if not, maybe it looks like it's you, >> Castanada. I don't >> the other boyfriend. >> I >> Castanada >> or Well, I know who that is. I just don't understand how he's >> I don't know. One of your boyfriends, one of your associates. Someone killed your ex and we want to find out who it is. It seems like you're involved. Your car is there. You left your scanner with GPS back at AJ's house. Uh, your ex when you've said AJ would kill is now dead. >> I never said that. >> Well, I don't care. I wasn't there. I'm not That's what Rosa said, but I don't care. I didn't I didn't hear that. That's what Rosa say. It could have just been a off the off the cuff remark, but we're gonna do a gunshot test. >> It could be Herby being like, "Hey, >> we're gonna do a gunshot residue test on you." >> What do you mean? A >> no, we're going to do a gunshot residue test on you to see if you have any, you know, when you fire a gun, all this gunshot powder comes out and it covers covers your face, your hair, your clothes, your hands. Have you been around any guns lately? Have you been shooting anything lately? >> No. So, if we do a gunshot residue test, it's going to come back negative. >> It better. >> I feel like >> I'm just trying to get I'm trying to figure out if you did this or if someone else did this. And my bet is you have someone else involved in this, maybe a friend. And so, I'm trying to figure out if you talk to me about this, you know. Um, I don't think this is a coincidence that your your uh your ex got shot in the face today. It looked like a hit. Looks like someone pulled up, ran out, shot him, ran back to the car, sped off, fired five times. He died right there. So, I'm going to take this seriously and I want to exonerate you to have nothing to do with this. I don't want to arrest you if you didn't do this. Does that make sense? I don't want to arrest anyone that didn't do a crime, but your car is there. Your car is there. You turn your scanner off. Your GPS. Well, you didn't turn it off. We're not going to mince words. You left your scanner at your boyfriend's house. You said you were at work all day. You're not at work. >> I am at work. I'm on my route. I just >> for like 3 hours. You left your scanner there. >> I stopped I left it in the truck while I went into the house. >> And then your car is in the crime scene. You know, that's a lot for a jury to try to swallow. So, uh, we saw the the the car in the area, but there's also another car. So, that's why I'm thinking maybe someone else is involved. Maybe things went a little too far and you thought maybe your boyfriend was going to rough him up and then, oh crap, your boyfriend shot someone. And I don't want to look at you for this. You know, there are exes out there, men, women, that say, you know, this guy's doing me dirty. go send him a message. You're not going to go fight Turret. You're not going to go punch him. You know, that'd be too easy. But send someone else in to rough him up. And uh we sent him in to rough him up and holy crap, he shot him. And maybe that's what that's not what you were expecting. Maybe you just want him roughed up a little bit. Or he said, "I'm going to go rough him up." You're like, "No, I don't rough them up, but let's go over there. I'm going to rough him up." Maybe you just want to keep them calm a little bit and then instead of roughing them up, he kills him. So, I'm trying to find out. I think you're definitely involved in this, but maybe maybe you're down here where you're just trying to prevent something. Okay? Maybe you don't want this hothead, whoever it is, to go beat him up. Maybe no one >> not a hot head. >> Well, I don't know who he is, but whoever's there, maybe they went too far and you didn't know it. So, that's why I'm trying to give you some some type of plausible deniability. Um, this happens all the time. I can tell you some stories about it if you want to, but um my favorite story about this is a basketball player. Um basketball player is playing basketball and he sees some fan heckling him, right? And the fan is uh saying, "Oh, you suck. You suck." Well, the guy goes up there and beats up the fan, right? Terrible. He's in the paper. He's getting crucified in the paper. He's a elite athlete making millions of dollars a year. they have security to go out and take care of these guys. Next week, same another guy, I think it's Andre Davis, some he goes up from the stands and beats someone up. Um, is that the same thing? I mean, on the surface level, it is, but if you don't do your job as a detective, you might not realize that this guy, Andre Davis, uh, someone was messing with his wife, like harassing his wife, smacking his wife around. He ran up to the stands to do his husbandly duty to protect his wife. So, that's why he did it. The other guy, he's down here. He just goes out there because he's a punk and beats up a fan. Andre Davis goes up there, does the same thing, but he does it to protect his wife. So, two same things. And if we don't get to the bottom of this and find out what's really going on, you know, where are you on the spectrum? Are you this thug that goes into the stands and beats someone up, or you this other person who's just trying to calm things down, get things under control? Um, that's what I want to know. That's a mitigating circumstance. If things got out of control, I want to know it. And this is your chance to tell me cuz something happened and you're involved somehow to some degree. Um, and I want to know it. If your boyfriend or your friend or some some guy you hired maybe to beat him up, things went too far, uh, this is the time to come forward and come clean and let me know. >> Did I hire? >> I don't know. I don't know who this guy is. just it did. But we're going to find out. You know, we're searching your car. We're going to search your phone. We're going to do this gunshot residue test. Maybe everything will come back clean. And that's great. That's great cuz I don't want to arrest the wrong person. But if there's someone else involved in this, we're going to find out. And if that other person says you're involved in this, uh, it looks bad on you. So, this is your chance to tell me someone went way too far. And I didn't want him to shoot him. I thought he was going to talk to him. I thought he was going to say, "Hey, knock this [ __ ] off." I thought he was going to try to reason with him. I thought he was gonna say, "Hey, this has gone too far. Let's get this under control." And I was going to let him try it, but he shows up there. All of a sudden, he's shooting them. There wasn't two people there. There was just one. Just one shooter. And so I'm thinking, uh, I got to do my job as a detective. And if you didn't do this, I need to get you off the hook for it. I need to say she wasn't involved. She came clean. She panicked. She didn't call the police right away because she was scared. You know, your ex just got shot in the face and you don't want to turn this guy in because you're thinking you're scared. I understand that. I mean, I've been a detective for 28 years. Um, these things happen, but now we got to take a deep breath. Now, we got to say, there's more to the story than you think, Steve. Uh, you need to say, Steve, I'm not a bad person. Steve, I can't tell you what happened, but it got too far. And you got to get this off your chest because I believe you have some knowledge of this. I believe your car is in the area. The whole thing with the scanner. All of these things are starting to add up. You know, we're going to search your phone. We're going to get you get clothing and test that. We're going to test your hands. something something happened and you didn't cover your tracks if you're involved in this and we're going to find out about it. So, now is a good time before we find out about it. You will find this person. We've got like 65 cops working on it. 65 detectives. We got the whole postal investigation team here. Um, we're going to find out about it. Now's your chance if you didn't have anything to do with this to come clean. Say, "Steve, I don't know how to tell you this. I don't know if you'll even believe me, but I want you to try. I want you to try to trust me to believe me that if you didn't have anything to do with this and something got out of hand, I want to help you because the gig is up. >> You're not really in the business of trusting people. >> So, I'm not asking I'm not saying I trust you or I trust this guy. I'm asking you to trust me because if you didn't do this and things got out of control and you panicked and you didn't think this guy was going to kill him, you thought maybe he's going to rough him up. Uh that's understandable. So that's why I want you to trust me if something like that happened. I understand why I would be a suspect because of who I am related to him >> and your color, >> but I don't I don't there was things in the past that have happened with him and I that I could have gone to court or I could have tried to call the police. I mean, I have and it didn't help, but there's other things I could have done. Why would I shoot him? I don't know. I don't know why people ever shoot people. And I'm not saying you shot him. Um maybe someone else shot him. Maybe people just lost their temper. Someone shot him. We know that. Someone shot him five times in the face. That's kind of a lot of hatred to them. They didn't steal anything from him. Uh they didn't have any issue with him. They weren't there wasn't in a traffic uh road rage case. Um someone shot him because they were really upset with him. They shot him in cold blood. shot him five times and let him bleed to death there. Um, that's someone who knows this guy and you know him very well and you know the people who know him very well. >> I don't know the people that know him. >> You know AJ, you know Castanada. >> They don't know him. >> Your car was there. Okay. Your car was there. So tell me someone borrowed your car. >> I don't. I was at work on my route which is not close to the PO not super close to the post office. Why is your car in Longmont when your scanners >> I don't I don't know. I am on my route working. >> Do you work in a mail truck or your personal car? >> No, I work in a mail truck. >> Okay. So, why is your car down here killing your ex? >> I don't know. >> But it's Do you understand why that's so concerning to me? >> Yes, I do understand that. >> Borrow your car. Help me out here. >> I don't know. But I it seems like with all of these things that you're going to be doing that I need to have a lawyer or ask for a lawyer or I don't know. >> I'm going to I'm going to take your phone. I'm going to apply for a search warrant to search it. I'm going to have a female come in here and help you get changed out in privacy off camera so we preserve your rights. I'm not going to ask you any more questions about this homicide. Um uh and so let's let's get that going. Okay. I'm going to treat you with respect and uh let me get that going. Okay. >> So is Rosa's here. And is that it? Is she going through the same thing? >> We've interviewed her. I don't know who's interviewing her, what how they're acting her, what they've asked her, but uh her car is not in the uh scene. Um, I uh I I really don't You said you don't want to talk to me. You don't want a lawyer. And I don't want to try to trick you and say, "Well, keep talking to me. Keep asking me questions and we're going to abuse your rights." If you want a lawyer, stop. And uh and that's fine, but I don't want to violate your rights. I take your rights very seriously. >> That's That's fine. I just I don't That's fine. >> Yeah. Let me get the uh Detective Jones in here. >> Sure. >> And she's not listening. >> Is Cassie there? >> Yep. >> Um so we got the GSR kit. >> Yes. >> Can you hear anything for anything? Um, >> I don't want to be a jerk to you. >> Guess some water. >> I'll get you some water. >> Okay. My Are we >> So, we're going to do a GSR kit. Um, she's going to uh we're going to seize your clothing and that could help exonerate you or implicate you in the crime. Hopefully, it exonerates you and shows that you didn't do it. Hopefully, this gunshot resident kit exonerates you and shows that you didn't do it. [music] Um, then we're going to probably just get you up here. Uh, your son is not going home with you. Uh, we're going to talk to the Department of the Health and Human Services. Have a social worker decide who should get the PA because I'm not convinced uh that you're not involved in this. >> So, I can't even see him. You put him in the back of a police car and brought him here and he doesn't he doesn't hasn't gotten to see me or anybody. >> I'm not here to punish him. I'm going to treat you with respect. I'm going to ask and if I was a be Yeah. Let him see her. But I'm a little concerned about what happened today and I'm concerned for the sentence uh for safety cuz I don't know what happened yet. At this point, Detective Desmond felt he had done all he could. According to my interview with him, Detective Desmond felt that she wouldn't open up to him. "She hated me," he told me on the phone. But I wanted to get her locked into his story before I passed her on to the post office detective. When I asked him whether he was proud of his work in this interrogation, he answered in the negative. She was impossible to develop rapport with, and she had one clear goal, to get possession of her son, which wasn't going to happen. Other detectives might have dangled Devon's son in front of her as a bargaining chip, but Detective Desmond's personal philosophy of interrogation is to be upright and honest with suspects. There was no way she would have been getting her son, and that was a dealbreaker in Devon's mind. And so, Detective Desmond passed the interrogation baton to the post office detective who had a different strategy. Let's watch. >> Hey, Steve. >> Yeah. >> Can you step out for just one moment? >> Um, so real quick, uh, one thing before you step out. Um, just cuz we're in a secure area. Um, we didn't check you for any weapons. Do you have done yet? >> Uh, no. >> Can you stand up? Just let me check real quick. You can sit back down. Okay. You don't have to be nice or anything or anything. That'll me. Okay. >> I just don't like it. >> This is where the detective becomes much more strategic. Instead of simply saying, "You killed him," he gives Devon alternative explanations. Maybe she wanted Jason confronted. Maybe someone else went too far. Maybe she never intended for him to die. Psychologically, this creates an escape route. The detective is essentially telling her, "You don't have to tell me you're a murderer. Tell me what happened." He repeatedly lowers the emotional barrier to confession by presenting a version of events that could make her involvement seem less deliberate. But Devon doesn't take the opening. And that's when the detective increases the pressure. Her car, her scanner, the GPS evidence, the custody dispute, and the possibility that another person >> So my name is Ken. So, I know you worked for the post office and I've worked for the post office. >> Mhm. >> So, because this is kind of postal related and you were working today, I wanted to chitchat with you about kind of what happened and some of your activities today. Okay. I understand you may have been kind of done talking with the detective, but I wouldn't mind talking to you as an inspector to find out what's going on and what have you say. Can we can we also confirm just you said you wanted a a lawyer but I wasn't clear. Do you want to talk to him or do you want a lawyer? >> Whatever you decide. I don't have any more questions but I I don't want your advice to >> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. We weren't sure because you were kind of deciding what you want it to be but I'd imagine you probably this is the husband of your child. >> The father. >> The father of your child. So, we're just trying to get this wrapped up. We're trying to figure out what happened today. Okay. So, one of the things we do is talk to everybody that's around the [snorts] person. Anybody that they may have had a relationship with, either current or in the past, obviously you have a relationship. >> This is a critical psychological transition. Devon has reached the point where the questions are becoming too dangerous for her. She starts talking about a lawyer. The detective does not aggressively fight that boundary. Instead, he carefully clarifies what she wants while keeping the interview controlled. Then comes the forensic pressure, clothing, gunshot residue, phone records, physical evidence. The psychological message is simple. Even if she doesn't explain what happened, investigators believe the evidence will eventually explain it for them. And that changes the balance of power. >> Okay. What kind of masks do you normally wear when you go into those places? >> Um, I have cloth ones that have like like certain designs on them. >> Okay. >> Um, >> like your personal ones. >> Yeah. Like that I had to wear all of like quarantine and like the whole that whole time frame. >> For sure. But I have I have some um just like I don't know regular masks that they give you when you go into those places or store or whatever that is like hey we require you to have it. >> Okay. Does the post office ever give you masks to wear? >> No. >> No. Okay. Um but you said you had some masks with you or they in your car or where are they? Um, I have some in my I have one I think in my car and I have one in my backpack. >> Okay. Um, where's your backpack in the car? >> Okay. >> Okay. Is that a backpack you like take back and forth when you're like from your house to the post office that you keep? I know a lot of carriers do that. >> Um, what color are your masks that you wear? I don't wear >> or when you do wear or what color are they in general. >> Just depends on which one I grab. Like I said, I have cloth ones and I also have um I don't know like the blue ones that they have at doctor's offices. There's the ones that they hand out like they hand them out everywhere. >> Okay. Like the blue like surgical masks. >> Yeah, I guess so. >> Okay. Okay. Um, so let me just step back for a second. Um, you said you had done some communication via Facebook. You have a Facebook. What's your Facebook? Like you have like a username on there. Just >> my name. >> Just your name. Okay. Um, you just have the one Facebook account. Okay. Okay. So, um, do me a favor just so I make sure that I'm not confused about the events of today. Run me quickly through what happened today. I >> mean, I feel like I've already done that. you have I just want to make sure that I'm not missing anything that we're tracking that I'm not confused about anything that um what you told me is like sometimes when I'm talking to people they remember things as they're recounting their day or like oh yeah I had a coke that reminds me I stopped at the 7-Eleven that's why I asked you what you had to eat for lunch cuz sometimes that jogs memories about what happened. You remember what you told me you had for lunch? >> Uh, yeah. Piece of rolls. >> Okay. And um, what did you have to drink? Do you remember that? >> Was a wild beer. >> Okay. Let me ask you this. So, just talking about AJ, you said he's been a correctional officer. Just And of course, being a law enforcement officer, he has a gun. Have you ever shot a gun before? >> Yes, multiple times. >> Okay. When's the last time you've ever shot a gun before? >> Over a year ago. Okay. And whose gun was that? >> Uh, it was one of his. >> One of AJ's. Okay. How many guns does AJ have? >> I don't know. >> Okay. Is it more than one? You said guns, so I'm assuming you meant >> Yes, he has a few, but I don't know how many. I don't know. He has. >> Okay. So, um, what kind of guns are they? >> I don't know. I'm not familiar with >> I don't know that much about them. Okay. I don't know. >> Okay. >> Tell you >> when did you guys last go shoot? You said about a year ago. >> Uh for our friend anniversary last year. Yes. >> For your what? >> Uh friend anniversary. Like an anniversary for friends. >> Okay. >> But yeah. >> Do you remember what date that was then? >> Uh I don't. It was at the beginning of November. >> Okay. >> I don't know. >> So sometime in November. Where did you guys go out shooting? >> Uh there's a place in Loveland. >> Okay. like a gun like a shooting range. >> Like a shooting range. So you went there and you said you had done it a few times before. Had you been with him a couple times before? >> Uh, no. I had been with an ex before. >> With an ex-boyfriend. Okay. Do you have your own weapons? You don't have any guns or anything of your own? >> Okay. So he took you to shoot his gun. Was it a rifle or was it a pistol? >> Um, it was a rifle. >> It was a rifle. Okay. Do you remember what kind of rifle it was? >> Was it Did it look like a machine gun or like a hunting rifle? >> I really couldn't tell you the difference. I don't hunt, so I don't know. >> Okay. So, when you were at this shooting range, you shot a rifle? >> Yes. >> Okay. And then you shot his pistol, too? >> No, I don't. I am only aware of the pistol that he has for his job. >> Okay. So, um, when you said he had multiple guns, you're not sure what all he has. Okay. Where does he keep his guns? >> I don't know. >> Okay. But you've been to his house before, like all the time, but you're not sure where he keep Does he keep it locked up? >> I don't know. I don't go looking for them. >> Okay. Do you know what color it is? >> No. >> Okay. Did you ever shoot his handgun >> like for work? No. that for anything. Have you ever physically shot his handgun? >> No. Okay. When's the last time you shot a handgun? >> Uh, really long time ago. Like over 10 years ago. >> Okay. So, do you know how to shoot a handgun? Uh, I mean, I guess I would know the basics just like every other gun, but I don't know. >> Okay. >> Specifically what you're asking? >> Uh, well, I'm asking. You said you don't have a gun. >> No. >> Um, do you know how Jason passed away today? >> Yes. They said he was shot. >> Okay. Uh, who said that? >> The detective. >> Okay. The detective told you he was shot. >> The detective told me he was shot in the face. The detectives had shot in the face. >> Okay. Um, how' that make you feel? >> Uh, I don't I don't know. I don't have anything against guns, but I don't obviously I don't own one, so I don't >> know. How it make you feel to find out that the father of your child was shot in the face with a gun? >> Yeah. It's terrifying. >> Mhm. >> It's not I I'm very upset about it. I know that, like I said, I know that we've cut our our issues, but >> Okay. Um, and you said, I guess, correct me if I'm wrong. Have you shot AJ's pistol? No. >> So, if we talk to AJ, he's going to say, "Yeah, she hasn't shot my pistol." Okay. And you said you don't know where he keeps it. Don't know anything about it? >> I don't know anything about it. When's the last time you saw him with this pistol? >> I don't remember. It's been a long time. >> Okay. Do you um Is is AJ kind of like a law enforcement? Is he interested in law enforcement, police officers, and that kind of stuff? >> You ask him. >> Okay. Does he watch Do you guys ever watch like police shows together? That type of thing? >> We don't watch a lot of things together. >> You don't watch. >> Inspector now introduces a completely different kind of pressure. forensic certainty. First, he establishes that Devon has fired guns before. Then, he establishes that AJ owns firearms. Then, he begins explaining what investigators expect to find after a shooting. Gunshot residue, blood, clothing evidence, shoe evidence. The important psychological technique is that he doesn't simply accuse her of having physical evidence. He asks her what she expects investigators to find. That forces Devon to mentally participate in the investigation against herself. When she says she is certain there will be no gunshot residue, the inspector has created a future verification point. If the forensic evidence contradicts her, her credibility becomes another problem. This is no longer just a conversation about what she remembers. It's a conversation about what the physical world is going to say. >> You want to do the GC first >> uh before she let me just do that real quick. Get you out of here. One of the things we talked about, just so you remember, was like when a gun's fired, remember I was talking about kind of that blowback and stuff sometimes, so it'll get on your hands and in between your between the creases of your fingers and your wrinkles. And not that you have any wrinkles cuz you're still in your 20s, but he's going to he's going to put some sticky things on your hand to to swab them forward it um as part of this whole thing. So that's what that's about. Let's see. Right hand. Just go like this. It's just basically like an adhesive tape. It won't leave any residue. >> Well, it's tape >> kind of. It's not tape, but it's >> almost like a lint roller type. If you can envision something like like a tacky lint roller. >> Why? Good job. Good way again. This one here is the face. So, I'm going to do those areas on your face. Okay. Um, yeah. I'm just going to pull back your hair a little bit. Do this. Guess my colleague is a makeup tech there. Um, good. >> All right. Um, you need to use the restroom. Okay. So, I'm going to walk you to the restroom and then also we'll grab um we're going to do a change of clothes. >> Let me This is I'll squeeze through here. So, >> hold on just a second. >> Okay. >> Think they're going to get you a fair change of clothes. Okay. >> Is that my son? >> No, no, no, no. that was one of the commander >> one of the other uh uh guys that worked here. So, right. So, here's the situation. I need you to go ahead and turn around for me. Turn around. Put your hands behind your back. Interlace your fingers. Do not move. Okay. >> Am I Am I under arrest then? We'll discuss that here in just a second. Does it feel okay? Nothing's pinching or anything like that? >> No. I'm going lock them so that they don't get any tighter. Grab it easy. All right. So, you are under arrest. Okay. So, we're going to take you downstairs. We are uh going to get your clothing and we'll let you go to the bathroom down there. Okay. Cuz we think Am I going to be told >> step back is >> just a little bit more then? >> Right this way. >> That was the interrogation of Devon Shriner. But we still have to watch. >> Probably the most important pressure point in Devon's interview. Earlier, the vehicle was an accusation. Now the inspector makes it concrete surveillance license plate location. He tells her investigators have footage placing her vehicle in the area at the relevant time. Devon's response is revealing not because she confesses but because she stops trying to explain the evidence and starts protecting herself legally. She asks for an attorney again. That's the psychological turning point. The conversation has reached a point where continuing to answer may create more danger than silence. attorney >> by your wife or >> No, I've retained an actual >> Okay. >> attorney. >> Okay. >> Like an actual criminal attorney. She's an attorney, but I >> Right. No, I got I got you. We talked about that >> Wednesday night. So, I just, you know, it's important. I mean, this is kind of your opportunity to talk to us and and so if there's anything else you want to go, you have any other questions? >> Why don't So, you know, we have your phone. We got your phone records. We have her phone records. Why don't if this has happened multiple times where she said that she's going to do this or she needs to do this. Why don't we see any texts of you telling her not to do this if you've begged and pleaded for her not to so many times? >> Usually I talk to her like I talk. I don't I guess I don't text all the time. Like I talk. It's just what I >> There's no documentation of you actually trying to calm her down from going to kill him even though this has happened multiple times. I mean, she never told me on text that she was going to believe her. Just need to talk. >> I'm I'm just trying to find stuff that's going to help you at this point because you got to understand, you're telling me that, but I don't have evidence of that. Does that make sense? >> Right. >> It seems to me we have evidence of all this other stuff, but the stuff that we're missing is that stuff that would help to corroborate what you're telling me with that. >> Right. Yeah. I always talked about never texted on that kind of stuff. just be during talking. We did a lot of therapy today talking all the time. She she has her own her own problem. She has a lot of trouble. Obviously, I did whatever I had to do, but to get by. I don't think I have any other questions. Do you have Snapchat? What's bring your own shovel mean? >> What's bring your own shovel mean? >> Okay. Okay. Did you delete any phone calls or texts off your phone? >> I delete everything. My wife my wife is not okay with her. >> Okay. So, that part was true that your wife doesn't like her. >> Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, I can see why. Yeah. My wife has hated her for 13 years. >> Okay. Well, I tell you what, we need to step out and talk for a second. You going to be all right in here for just a minute or two. It won't take a long choice. >> You absolutely have a choice. >> I'm fine. I'll wait. >> Okay. I mean, I make no make no mistake. I mean, you have a choice. Um, we just need to talk real quick. Um, and my phone Did you ask? You give us just a couple minutes. Is that all right? He's going to make a quick, okay? And it's just we got to make some decisions and and go from there. Not really our decision. So, um, if you have questions, you can ask me. If I can answer them, I will. Um, other than that, I I'm not going to ask them at this point. So, I don't think she was going to go through. >> What's that? >> I really didn't think she was going to go through that time when she hung up with me. She was going to go back to work. >> When she when she hung up with you, where was she? just going in there to do what she did. >> Okay. You don't know though? >> Well, I don't know. She's never told me, but and the evidence was there. This is just pieces. This is just pieces of I mean I said I mean I told you there's probably close to 80 people working on this. So these are just kind of quick pieces. I mean it's not like it's you know I mean there's a lot more that's why it's important but well I mean now my my story is straight now. I guess where he's from here. What do you think should happen to someone shoot somebody? >> It's tough. I've always been a knack for an eye to that person. >> But in this case, my feelings about that person. I can't hear you, man. >> My feelings about that person are different. So, >> okay. >> I mean, pretty sure they know what she's going to get. >> What about the people that help her? >> What should happen to them? >> I didn't help her. >> I didn't say that. But um don't think that she has she was all right. Did you get another phone while you were while after I took yours or just my wife's phone? >> Your wife's your wife's phone now. >> Okay. What's she using? >> Her work phone. >> Oh, okay. What else? A doll. like living at home right now. Is your wife okay with you being there still? I'm sleeping on separate floors. >> Like the basement part there. Okay. She's pretty bad. All right. It's the first time had an affair and >> Well, it's the it's the first time >> First time you got caught. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And and I don't mean that a bad way, but yeah. I mean, really, it's the first time she knows. Um, any of the guys in the ride share, are they aware of anything? >> No, they're their wives are friends with police. Nobody's aware of anything. Nobody know. >> Okay. That was one of the things I heard I thought about a lot is that I might bring her friends. She's not She wasn't the type of person I wanted. >> How come I'm happy in my marriage? I just hope side thing some joy, but it's not what I wanted for my for my life. She wasn't She wasn't >> She wasn't >> She wasn't that person. >> Okay. I'm This thing's going on. I can't hear you. >> I understand. I'm just >> I'm just just interrogation briefly shifts away from the car and toward motive. Devon reveals something emotionally explosive. Jason had been involved with her younger sister. That adds another layer to an already volatile relationship. But the inspector doesn't need to force the issue for long. The interview moves toward physical testing. Her hands are swabbed. Her clothing is collected. Investigators are now moving from conversation to evidence preservation. And then the moment arrives. Devon asks whether she is under arrest. The answer comes moments later. She is placed in handcuffs. The psychological significance is that the interrogation has moved through three stages. Suspicion pressure and finally physical custody. >> Even though you have a bunch of guys who work law enforcement, all kinds of people that you could have told that, "Look, I'm involved in this." >> You didn't tell anyone. >> You did think she was going to do it. You went down there to warn him, >> right? >> You went down there not just to warn him. You went down there and you waited. If what you're telling me is true, if I'm supposed to believe what you're telling me is true, you're saying that you went all the way, you believed it so much to the extent that you went all the way down to Longmont after you had spent the night with her to go down there and sit and follow a mail truck around for 2 or 3 hours. That's how much you believed it. And you didn't tell anyone else. That's what I'm supposed to believe. Where did the gun come from? >> I have no idea. I assume I don't know who it is. I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Okay. And I think you understand why. All right. I I don't think it's hard to come to the conclusion that I'm having a hard time coming to terms with your story right now. >> What purchases did you make that that day? Sure. >> Well, I don't mean those days. I mean my firearms. If you catalog all my firearms, I'm going to check them all against FFLs. >> Okay. >> If that's what you're implying that it's mine, it's it's not mine. I'm trying to figure I you there's no way that you can tell me that you didn't believe that her threat to go down there and kill him was serious. >> I mean, >> I'm just saying by your actions that morning that tells me you absolutely believed it was a serious threat. >> That morning is the first time that I thought like I had the feeling that she might actually do it. >> And I'm not because I have the feeling like yes, hindsight's 2020. I should have I should have done more. But I believe that if I saw her, I could stop her. And if I didn't have to worry about getting involved in those two, I might not mess up her custody battle. I tried to convince her to keep a level head. I was not successful. Okay. Then even when she got off the phone with you, you told me yourself, she got off the phone with you, she said, "All right, don't worry. It's passed." And even you said that you know her well enough to know that that's a bunch of bull. >> She doesn't care about >> she doesn't do that, right? So you knew the thought was still in her head. >> I I I 100% knew the thought was still in her head. >> Okay. >> I thought >> Yeah, you still hung up the phone. >> Was going to be right then. I didn't know that that's what that's what hanging up on meant. Right. >> I thought >> I thought she was going to go back to her route for the day. She'd finish it off. We'd continue this on later on. Like I I don't know how else to explain that. I didn't I didn't look like she was doing that. That's what hanging up. >> So, you knew she was still thinking about it. You went in the conversation with her. You drive by him and have a quick little 15-second conversation with him. Please remind what did you say to him? >> I just told him I said, "Hey, you need to look out for Devon. Like, she's she's I I'm worried that she's going to do something stupid." And he goes, "What?" And like looked at me like he didn't I don't think he recognized who I was. I think he was confused because I mentioned her name. >> Okay. But and I said I said Devin I said I think she's unstable and she might do something to you. He was like I'm not afraid of that [ __ ] And I said okay man >> done all that you can do at that point. >> I mean >> and you went to Hooters and had lunch. >> Like I said I thought that she went back to her route. I gave him his warning. Like I said 3 days prior she had talked about middle of the night. I was still I was still planning on doing my part, trying to trying to get her to to realize that that's not a rational >> Mhm. >> of dealing with things. >> Okay. >> I thought that I was successful at the time and I wasn't and I thought that I could continue. Okay. >> Or at least convince her later on that that's not that's not what needs to happen. So what if I told you that there are people that said that even though you and Jason didn't have a lot of contact together, they from their understanding there's tension between you and Jason specifically because of the situation with Devon. We said that they feel very personally that you specifically had it out for Jason. >> How and why? What's the motive there? What do I see that benefit from that? >> He was with the girl that you're apparently with. It's not with >> They have a kid together. They spend time together. >> They don't spend time together, but I could care less. She also cheated on me with two other guys throughout this whole time. I didn't do anything. >> Is it really cheating on you on you though if you're with your wife? >> No. And that's why that's why I didn't care. >> Yeah. >> My point is what? I wasn't the only person that she was sleeping with and I wasn't upset about that. Like I didn't care. Like that she was a side. Were you scouting out that area for her to come down? >> She already knew Israel. H >> She already knew Israel. She was at his house. >> That wasn't my question prior to that. >> That wasn't my question. >> No, I was not. >> How do you know she was in Israel weeks prior to that? >> She told me that she got kicked out of the post office before that by some lady at the post office because that lady was his secret post office girlfriend. That's the way she worded it. and she was there picking up her mail and she said that when she walked by his case, some lady chased after her and told her that she had to get out of the house. That's what she had told me. And obviously thinking back, that's that's what I assume it was. She already knew his route. She told me his route a bunch of times. She's that's how she told me that number. >> She knew the route number. Did she ever deliver that route? Do you know? >> I don't I don't know if she delivered it. She said that he's been on that route forever. When she originally told me the route number, she said he's been on it literally forever. >> She knows the route. She knows what route number. >> She knows the route, too. I mean, she worked at the post office at that post office. >> Okay. >> But she and she I guess talking to him. I don't know if they talk about the route or what, but she'd already knew the route. >> What do you think she's telling us? >> What do you think she said? >> Why don't you call him back the next day? When you know what we're looking into, you know the seriousness of it >> because my my attorney adviser. >> What is your attorney? >> See my client might have information in a rather high-profile investigation. >> I guess he's waiting on the >> cuz you lied. You lied blatantly to that guy. >> I know. I've already talked to him about that. >> And and your wife is no excuse for that. >> I know. I've talked to him about that. Um, >> well, I'm talking to you about it now. I I understand you guys may have had a chitchat about it, but I'm asking you about it now. >> I I know I told him that I made a mistake on what I told him. I was trying to trying to cover up the affair. I I wasn't a part of this like it looks like I am. So when he was there, yes, I realized the car was out there and she said that she was there and so I understood why my house was being searched. It's not that I didn't understand it, but I didn't comprehend the fact that this was going to go to where it is now cuz I wasn't part of it. I know that most on the phone with her almost the whole time. How are you how are you not >> every day? You come look at my records every day. I'm on the phone with her every day. All day. Yeah, but this day you were specifically talking to her about her going down there and killing someone. >> No, I was not. >> You just said you were trying to talk her down from doing that. So, you weren't talking to her about that? >> I was talking about her going and killing somebody. >> I was talking to her about not making a decision. >> So, you made a random trip down to Longmont that had nothing to do with the mailman. So, you didn't think that she was on her way down there to kill somebody? >> What I thought she >> Why did you go down there to follow him around if you didn't think that's what she was going to do? >> Because I wanted to stop her if she came up there. So, you did think she was on her way to go down there to kill. >> I didn't discuss with her about going and killing somebody. I'm trying to talk. >> But you said she talked about that before. You said that you had to talk her down from that on more than one occasion. That was the first thing you told me. You said you had to talk her down from that on more than one occasion. And each time you were successful. And then this last time when I asked you about it, you said this is the only time that it got this far that you had to talk her down cuz the other times now are just banter. So the other times didn't happen, but this is the only time that you've had to try to talk her down. multiples 3 days prior. I had to >> correct that one. Okay, I'll give you that one. Yes, you said that one. 3 days prior. You had to talk her down from that one. And we said you were there multiple times you've had to talk her down. So now it's just the three days prior and then the day that she finally does this. >> So only two times now. >> Correct. >> The other times I told you I didn't talk her down. It was just we were just talking like that was never serious. She never she never came at me in in the way that she came at me that day where she was like, I already have everything I need. Like that was never something that she said. >> What does she mean by that? What stuff did she have? >> I don't know. She didn't tell me. She all she said was >> she's talked to you about this before. You've had to talk her down. So what was her plan? >> I I don't know. >> Well, I assume her plan was whatever ended up happening. I don't know. >> She didn't tell me her plan. She knew that I wasn't going to be okay with it. That's not That's not who I am. And yet you had to go down there and find him and warn him in person because you had cuz you didn't know what she was going to do. >> I didn't originally intend on warning him. I >> you were just going to follow him for 3 hours like a stalker. >> That's that's how it looks. That's not that wasn't the intention. But yeah, >> because you didn't know >> cuz I thought that she was going to go do that show up. >> So either you did take her seriously or you didn't take her seriously. It's one or the other. I already told you I took her seriously enough that I stayed on the phone with her and tried to convince her that these these are not good options. These are not these are not good ideas and solutions to her problem. >> Okay. Do do you understand where I'm getting the conflicting ideas here? >> And I told him the same thing. I I understand. I work I work in a career where I do investigating stuff that was on here. And I get I get what you're seeing and I get why you're thinking what you think. I totally understand. That's why I I pretty much already understand where everything's going to go. I know that I didn't do that on purpose and I know that the evidence doesn't necessarily say otherwise. But I also know that I've never I've never been complicit with it. I've never told her that I want her to do it and I've never been okay with it. So, you know, I I like I said, I know what's I know the stuff that's on. >> You just helped her cover it up afterwards by not telling anybody and by lying about it. >> I I >> think about what you say here. >> I did >> cuz I already know the answers you gave that man the other day. >> Correct. I did lie to him about the stuff so that I could try to cover up my marriage or my affair to save my marriage. >> And in doing so, you covered up. But definitely my intention was not to try to alter or cover. >> But that's what you did. That's exactly what your lies did. >> Do you understand that? >> I understand what you're saying. That's my answer. >> Do you have any more questions? >> I don't. >> Okay. All right. All right, you're under arrest. Go ahead and stand up. Place your hands behind your back. >> Is it possible to do that out out in the parking lot? >> No. No. Stand up for me. >> We'll figure out what we need to as far as your uh Do you have a you have a uniform shirt on underneath this? >> Take it off already. >> Okay. >> Now, go ahead and face this gentleman right here for me. Two handcuffs. Yep. What all do you have on you right now? Just my opinion here. Actually, hold on. You got one. >> So, we're taking your truck, just so he knows. >> Okay. Does it have your name on it? That black one? >> Doesn't have my name on it. Yeah, it's a black one. >> Okay. little. Hang on, dude. Just hang on one second. >> H the forward with all these out. >> This is where the entire interrogation finally comes together. Andrew has spent much of the interview presenting himself as the person who tried to prevent the murder, but the investigator attacks the logic of that story. If he genuinely believed Devon was going to kill Jason, why didn't he call police? Why did he drive to the area? Why did he follow the mail route? Why did he personally warn Jason? And most importantly, why did he lie afterward? The investigator doesn't need to prove every detail at once. He simply keeps placing Andrew's own statements beside his actions, and that's where the psychological pressure becomes overwhelming. Andrew eventually admits that he lied to investigators, although he insists his intention was to protect his marriage and conceal the affair, not to participate in the murder. But the investigator points out the consequence. Regardless of his claimed intention, those lies helped conceal what happened. The story Andrew came in with is no longer holding together. And then the interview ends exactly where the entire interrogation has been heading. He's arrested.