the one per I've never hurt anybody else in my life. Okay? I've avoided fights for the exact same reason that I do know I have a temper and that I have a tendency to lose control a little bit when I have, you know, >> right? But, you know, I have so many people that screwed me over in my life and all, you know, Brendy might have been a little bit loopy every once in a while or, you know, whatever. But, you know, she she never did anything wrong by me. She was trying to help me. She was probably one of the only She basically killed the one person that was trying to >> trying to help you out. Yeah, I understand. You know, and >> two dogs are found wandering a road in South Carolina. Their owner is 300 m away in Florida and she's been missing since the morning she was supposed to appear in court. Nobody, no crime scene, just an empty house, a missing SUV, and the man who rented her spare room gone the exact same day. 3 months later, he's arrested in Seattle for stealing food. Two detectives fly across the country to sit across from him and 20 minutes into the interrogation, he asks for a lawyer. Then somehow he keeps talking. By the end of the night, he's drawing detectives a map to where they can find her. But there's one part of the story he keeps saying he can't remember. And that missing memory may be the most revealing part of the entire entire interrogation. >> What's up, Joe? What's going on? >> George Kip Brley. Joseph, >> what do you go by? Joe or Joe, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Sorry to pull you out in the evening. We kind of had some stuff going on, so we didn't get to it till now. >> Okay. >> But, um, I appreciate you meeting. >> You are in custody. So, before we get started, I do have to read your Miranda. >> Okay. >> I know the patrol guys did, I guess, yesterday, right? When they talked to you, but let me read. You have the following rights under the United States Constitution. You do not have to make a statement or say anything. Anything you say can be used against you in court. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before you make a statement or before any questions are asked of you and to have a lawyer with you during any questioning. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish. If you do answer questions, you have the right to stop answering questions at any time and consult with a lawyer. Do you understand what I just read to you? >> Yes. Would you mind signing right there just stating that you do understand? All right. Hey, sir. Are you from here, Joe? >> I I lived in Seattle for a while when I was growing up. Uh like grade school um beginning of middle school. >> Mhm. But uh I was actually born in Wisconsin and uh went to high school in Indiana. So kind of all over the place. Yeah. >> So somewhat somewhat familiar with the area but not thoroughly familiar I guess you could say. >> Exactly. >> Um how long have you been in Seattle? >> Uh recently I guess you could say. >> About 4 months I'd say almost maybe. >> Okay. And you say you're originally from Wisconsin? >> Yeah. >> I was born in Wisconsin. have never spent any real time there ever since I was like five, so I don't really remember it. >> Okay. Where So, where were you actually raised then, would you say? >> Uh, here in Indiana. >> Here in Indiana? >> Yeah. >> All right. Where out in Indiana? >> Indianapolis. Uh, little area called Broadripple. >> Okay. You got family there still? >> Um, yeah, my aunt lives there. >> Okay. Mom and dad in the picture? >> No. >> No. All right. Sorry about that. I don't mean to press any bad buttons, so to speak. >> It's long old old old history, you know. Whatever. >> I got you. Well, what brings you to Seattle? >> Um, I was looking for change. Um, old friend and uh I don't know, just I need change. So, >> old friend. >> Yeah, old friend I hadn't talked to in a long long time. um hit me up and was so we got to talking and I came up to here to see her and >> that was about it. >> A female friend. >> Mhm. >> It's always women that make us run all over the country, right? [laughter] >> Yeah, they do. They do tend to do that. >> Yeah, I got you. Well, uh how did you get up here? >> I drove. >> You drove? >> Yeah. >> What? You do you have a vehicle or you borrowed somebody's vehicle or what? >> Um I borrowed somebody's vehicle. >> Okay. And whose vehicle was that? >> Girl named Britney. >> Brittney from >> Florida. >> Florida. What's her last name? >> Tavar. >> Okay. And where's that vehicle now? >> It's still here. I'm assuming that's what this warrant is about. >> Yeah. I mean, >> at first, Joe Roberts sounds like a man trying to explain a simple misunderstanding. Borrowed car, a missing friend, and a warrant he claims not to understand. But beneath that calm explanation, something is already off. His story depends heavily on coincidence. Britney disappears. Her vehicle travels across the country, and Joe happens to be the person driving it. Detectives don't confront him yet. They let him talk. And that's important because before pressure can expose a story, investigators first need to understand exactly what that story looks like. When the suspect is still comfortable for >> ever, so I don't know what's going on. Well, what what can we do to make it right? I mean, >> I I have no idea. >> Well Well, tell me this. How did you Who is she to you? I mean, how do you >> She was just a friend. I We met [clears throat] We met in a Barnes & Noble and she wanted to start up a business and I was in a real rut down in Florida and I said, "Okay." And then she goes and buys me a computer so that we can get this business started, right? And I'm like, great, let's get it going. She lets me move into her house and start up to help her start up this company. Except the problem is is that once I start getting going on this, it >> I'm the one starting up the entire thing. And while she's helping me out a lot, it's just it didn't work out because she didn't want to do anything at all for it. and it started doing all the work. >> He kept changing from, oh, I'll help you with this to I'll help you with and so it didn't end up working out. Long story short, I was like, this isn't working out. We got in a huge fight on a Monday, a huge argument. And um it was I don't know, just basically about all this. And I was like, look, is there any way we can work out something else? can I? [sighs] And I was like, "Look, I have a friend in Seattle. I'd like to get to Seattle. Can I go to Seattle and is there any way you can help me get to Seattle?" And she was like, "Okay, yeah, you can take my car and go to Seattle." And I was like, "Great. Thank you. And I will pay you back." And so I and she let let me use her car and her cell phone. And I got in the car and cell phone and or with the cell phone and I [clears throat] took off and then couple days later and she gave me her uh her debit card as well so that I would have gas money and so that I basically I'd have gas money and I honestly I I used it for a couple other things too but food occasionally and was it I think and then anyway so I was supposed to take it up there, go see my friend, talk to my friend, and um and she was going to fly up there, pick it up, and drive it back, kind of have it for her to have a vacation cuz she her family lives on, as far as I know, in um California. and she was gonna pick it up, drive it from Seattle down the coast on the 101 or whatever that highway is and see her family and I treat it as a vacation and um I never heard from her once I got here. I never heard from her like So what was the plan? How was she supposed to call you? Did you have >> I had her cell phone. >> Oh, you had her cell phone? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So she was supposed to call you on the cell phone? Yeah, she was supposed to call me on the cell phone. Unfortunately, the cell phone died cuz I forgot to grab the I when I left, I didn't have the charger [clears throat] with me. >> Gotcha. >> But long story, I basically and I had actually I figured she just got something happened and she got pissed at me and um you know, I had also kind of screwed her over a little bit. So, cuz I I took some money and some jewelry. Um, but >> did she find out about that? >> Yeah, I think so. I don't know. >> So, you don't know? She never confronted you about that? >> I I haven't I haven't talked to her about it since I have. >> How much money did you take? >> Uh, a couple hundred bucks. >> All right. So, it was a You said it was a Monday when you left. >> Yeah. >> Like, how long ago? Like, you remember what Monday? >> Well, no. Tuesday when I left. It was a Monday when we were fighting. It was like Tuesday night. I I cut out um No, I have no idea what the date was. >> You remember the month? >> Um >> we're in October. So, >> yeah, I'm trying to count back. October August or July maybe. >> Okay. >> All right. It would have been Yeah. June, July, August. I has to be July, I think, or maybe early August. >> So, if you leave, so when you left, >> you just drove straight to Seattle. I mean, did you stay anywhere? Did you stop anywhere? I mean, do you talk to anybody? Did you go to anybody else's house and hang out or? >> No, I drove Well, I basically drove through I went up to Indiana uh for a second cuz I was going to surprise my mom or my aunt and say, "Hey," and try to have dinner with her and stuff like that. and uh she wasn't there, so I just kept going. >> Joe's explanation becomes increasingly complicated. Britney supposedly gave him the car, her phone, and access to her cards. Yet, he also admits taking money and jewelry without permission. Notice what happens psychologically. The story doesn't collapse, but it starts accumulating exceptions. Every questionable detail receives its own explanation. The detectives don't need to accuse him of lying. They simply keep asking for specifics because specific memories are much harder to control than a rehearsed version of events. And one detail is about to become especially important. What Joe thought was happening when police stopped him. >> He said just one. >> Well, >> so which I was only supposed to use the uh the credit card. Actually, >> you were only supposed to use a credit card. So why'd she let you have the debit card then? >> I have Well, she didn't. That was kind of one of the things that I I didn't even realize I had taken it until after I left. >> Okay. >> So, um, >> so she obviously would have been upset had she known you had both, which she probably is upset. >> Yeah. And then I and then in Idaho I got pulled over and I actually thought I was cuz I hadn't heard from her or anything and I I hadn't called her but I I hadn't heard from her and I got pulled over and I was actually kind of worried cuz I didn't have an ID at the time. I had a driver's license but I didn't have an ID. Um, and it was and my driver's license was in Indiana. And um, anyway, I was worried because I thought I thought she might have like called it in or something. That's why I thought I was getting pulled over at first. So, I kind of freaked. But >> Well, how'd that go? >> They they let me go. Um, I cuz I I told them what was up. I was like, I'm just driving, you know. Well, actually, I kind of fudged on it, but >> Well, what do you mean? What do you say? >> I I told him that uh I was staying with my aunt and she was in town and I sorry, I wasn't from around here and that's why I was speeding cuz the signs were all crazy, which was true. The signs were all crazy. It was like 30 minute mile hour speed zone and like I don't know I I'd been driving on the highway and I had a heavy foot and anyway [clears throat] >> cop gave me a break so I I left and crashed out for the night and then took off >> and went back to and continued on to Seattle when I came here. >> All right. Did you stop anywhere else and use the card? Um, other than gas or was it just gas and >> gas and food? I think that's that's about it. >> So, that was it. Nothing else? >> Um, at a Yeah, you know what? I did stop at a Walmart and pick up some stuff. >> What'd you get there? >> I don't know. Um, one of those backpacks for water. Um, and then, oh yeah, I picked up a tent cuz I was going to crash out uh a campsite that night and uh I think so maybe some clothes like a a t-shirt and some shorts. >> Okay. All right. And did you did you I mean during this whole time frame you had her car. Did you did you stay in any other town or did you was your goal to get straight to see? My goal was get straight to Seattle. I did the trip in like 3 and 1/2 days or something like that. >> Okay. >> 3 4 days. I, you know, it was pretty much from there to there. Um, and then when I got here, um, I couldn't even find [clears throat] the person I was supposed to be coming here for. So, >> yeah, it was kind of a busted trip. >> Yeah, I would say so. Um, and then obviously and then just yeah, [ __ ] went really well. Um, [clears throat] so I I I have a question for you. I mean, >> car theft is one thing. >> Why is my bounty so high? >> It's a good question. I was hoping you can answer that for me. >> The warrants out of Florida. >> Yeah, >> I was I mean, obviously it's concerning that it that it's that high. Yeah. >> I was hoping that maybe you could shed some light on maybe there's something more to the story than than just that. I don't know. I mean, is there something else you stole from her that is more important than a car? I mean, >> no. I've as far as I know, I just the car and the the jewelry and the the cards, >> right? But one of them you said she let you use. >> Yeah. She let you use one of them, but she didn't know about the other one, right? >> I um you know, I I think I I should probably get a lawyer. >> You think you probably should? >> Yeah, I think I I I need to talk to a lawyer cuz I I don't know where this is going. Obviously, something you guys aren't telling me. And yeah, >> I'm not sure what you mean by that, but um >> Well, can I talk to a lawyer? I mean, >> absolutely can. You're right. Awesome. >> But, um, do you want to uh is there anything that we can help you out with as far as getting in touch with your family? >> Would you like to talk to your aunt at at any point in the near future? >> I uh I mean, yeah, I guess I I did see my my grandmother was in the courtroom today. >> Well, good. Um, which I had no idea how she found out about all this, but um, >> well, listen, because you said you want to talk to an attorney. >> Mhm. >> You're a smart guy and you know, I'm not going to ask you any more questions about the case, but I do want to tell you your family's very worried about you and they do want to talk to you. And you and I know that there's much more to this. and we were here to give you the opportunity to tell us what really happened because you and I both know that there's a lot more that happened and we already pretty much know what happened. A lot of times the reason we we exist in investigations is to get the other side of the story. So that if this was a simple mistake or somebody, you know, acted out in rage because somebody else did something wrong in self-defense, so to speak, then that's a totally different story than somebody acting out because they wanted to act out. If you understand what I'm saying, there's a difference between somebody that meant to do something and somebody that didn't mean to do something. That's all I'm saying. So, just keep in mind that in order for us to talk again, you've got to ask to talk to me, >> okay? Well, >> because there's a >> And I I appreciate you saying that. And >> yeah, I pro I mean, let's just say um I just I need to know my options before I come back to you. >> Of course, I understand. >> Okay. And I'd do the same thing if I was in your position, >> you know. I >> But just just remember, you have to ask to talk to me, >> okay? >> I can't come and see you >> no matter what. So, you've got to ask to talk to me if you want to talk to me and know that there's a lot more that we can talk about >> and and you know exactly what I'm saying. And all I was here for was to make sure that this wasn't you weren't some monster, but that this was a big accident. That's all we were here for. >> Okay. All right, fair enough. >> Yeah. >> Would you um do you want to talk to your aunt before I leave? Do you want me to get you on the phone with her? >> Yeah, sure. >> Do we get cell reception in here? [clears throat] >> Leo, don't you write your uh name on there? >> When detectives question the unusually high warrant, Joe's confidence changes. Instead of continuing to explain, he suddenly recognizes that the case may involve something much larger than a stolen vehicle. His response is telling. He believes investigators are withholding something from him. Then he asks for a lawyer and the questioning stops, but the psychological pressure doesn't disappear. The detective shifts from evidence to emotion, family fear, and the possibility that Joe's actions may be understood as a mistake rather than something monstrous. That framing creates the opening for >> to get in touch with me. I'll make sure they know to um to to get a hold of me, but you never know what could happen. I'll at least give you my contact stuff. >> Do you guys fly in today? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it was a uh long flight. That's my number on both of them. But uh that's me. >> Okay. And that's him. >> What time is it in uh Indianapolis? Right. >> Yeah. You don't think she'll care if you call her late, do you? >> Um I don't know. >> I mean, it's what? >> I'll I'll call him. See, >> call her first. Step out there and call her first. She doesn't I don't want to be it. >> Yeah. Don't Yeah. Well, she doesn't like me that much anyway, so >> Well, yeah. just um let her know that he just wants to talk to her. And >> no, they your your family loves you, man. Don't uh don't think they're uh don't think that they hate you. Trust me, we've talked to them a lot. Seriously. Okay. >> Okay. >> I know you got a lot going on in your mind and you're scared right now and I know this isn't something you planned on doing. You didn't plan on sitting here in this room with me tonight trying to talk about this stuff. I understand that. But uh just um just think about everything and and know that there's a there's a way out so to speak as far as you don't want to be portrayed as a monster. You don't >> I know you know what I mean. You need anything more to drink or anything? Are you all right? Water would be great. I'm fine. Really? I don't know. It doesn't matter. You said grandma was in court today, right? That's good. That's really good. >> Yeah, I guess. Hold on just a second and we'll we'll get you on the phone with your aunt. Have you you haven't had any contact with her at all? Have you? >> No. >> Okay. I can't get uh your aunt on the phone. >> She's late. It's late. I mean, >> if she calls us back and you're already over there, maybe I'll try to set something up where we can hook up with you tomorrow and let you talk to her. >> Or I'll just tell her to somehow reach out to you. I mean, I don't know how it works over at the jail, but I'll tell them to reach out. >> Yeah, I have no idea. Um, all right. Uh, I'll talk to you. Um, I have a couple requests. >> Okay. >> First, my nerves are shot. >> Mhm. >> I want a cigarette really badly. Is that something you can make happen by? >> Let me check and see if we can make that happen. >> Yeah, let's find out. All right, request number one. What else? >> I don't ask for like a helicopter or anything like [laughter] that. >> That was exactly what I was going to ask for. >> Um, uh, I don't know how much control you have over it. >> Mhm. But I I'm not going to survive in anything that's maximum security or any of that. >> Joe initially asks for ordinary things a cigarette reassurance about jail, someone on his side. Then the conversation quietly changes. The detective emphasizes cooperation and repeatedly parrots Joe from the idea of being a monster. That distinction matters. Instead of demanding confession, he gives Joe a psychologically safer identity to step into. someone who made a terrible mistake. And Joe takes that opening. He suddenly admits that something happened, that he panicked and that he ran. But when detectives ask what actually happened, his memory becomes strangely selective until one image finally breaks through. >> Going and with just the way I was being treated and and or the way I was being I was perceived being. Anyway, >> listen, we know Britney wasn't any uh she wasn't an angel. We know that. >> We know that. >> Okay? So, trust me, we're very aware of her side of this. I I don't know. I Tuesday night we got I we got in an argument basically and I I was and she wouldn't shut up about the stupid court case that she had to go to. And I'm talking when she wouldn't shut up about it. She would not >> she was obsessed with it. obsessed with it to the point where that's all she would ever talk about. >> That was her life. >> Exactly. And um she wanted me to make these videos for her for her evidence so that she could get this restraining order. [snorts] And I did that and I did it a number of times. And that night she ca and I was supposed to go with her the next day to court. And that night she came to me again and said, "Hey, I need you to do these videos up for me again and and make me two DVDs." I was like, "Okay." And we got in an argument about something else. I don't really remember anymore exactly the details of it. Um, but uh, long story short, I was pissed, but I said, "All right, I'll make you the DVDs." She was pissed. She was like, "I don't want you to come with me tomorrow." And I was like, "Fine, great." And you know, I went in my room and I washed whatever and I did whatever and I stayed up late. But I made the DVDs and I left them out on the counter. Well, actually, I left one out on the counter. No, I left both of them out on the counter. Anyway, I went to sleep and I remember waking up and it must have been early and I remember waking up and hearing her go off about something and I don't really remember much after that. And then after and and then I I remember standing over and she's dead and there's blood everywhere and um we'll [clears throat] take a deep breath for a minute and think about the part that you're leaving out like how she ended up on the floor with with blood all over her. I mean, how did that happen? Honestly, guys, I I don't really remember. I don't know. Um I remember waking up and hearing her go off about no names on the DVDs. And I came out and I was yelling at her and calling her an ungrateful. And then I picked up something and I hit her. Do you know what it was that you picked up? Hammer, I think. How many times did you hit her? I don't know. Too many. >> Did she run? >> I don't remember, man. >> Well, you're you're starting to remember. you're remembering a lot. Just take your time. It's going to be it's it's going to be difficult, you know, to remember because your mind wants to block it out and you just have to kind of try to concentrate and take your time and think about it. Where did it happen at in the house? the um it was like the kitchen area kind of. >> Okay. >> Living room where like >> I guess actually like right where the computer area was. >> Okay. Yeah. Right in that area. >> So in that front room by the front door sort of. >> Yeah. That I got away there. >> Okay. >> Are you sure that it was a hammer? >> Yeah. How many times do you think you hit her with it? >> More than once? >> Yeah. >> More than three times? >> Probably like five maybe. I don't know. >> Where in the head? Body? >> Head. >> Did she Was she able to run at all? Did she get outside at some point? >> No. >> Okay. No, she just >> So after after that happens and you said all of a sudden you're standing there and and she's on the floor and she's got blood all over her. Yeah, she see there's I know there's a piece missing. I don't know what happened, man. I honestly don't because there's there was blood everywhere. And when I say everywhere, I mean it was all over the place. Well, the the biggest glaring question I'm sure you know I want to know is where is she? >> Um, okay. I can not exact exact location. I can give you general spot. Um, >> that's a start. >> All right. You know where you got a piece of paper and a pencil? Yeah. That would make life easier. Sorry. This is where Joe's account begins changing in real time. He says he doesn't remember how Britney ended up on the floor. Yet moments later, he identifies a hammer, estimate how many times he struck her, describes where it happened, and then gives detectives a detailed location where her body was left. The detective uses controlled prompting rather than an aggressive confrontation, allowing Joe to retrieve one detail after another. Whether every memory is reliable is a parrot question, but psychologically, the important shift is that the story is no longer abstract. It has locations, Jack's actions, and consequences. And now investigators need the one thing that explains what happened afterward. >> Well, it's after McDonald's we have right here. Is that Kangaroo on this side? >> Sorry, this is Kangaroo talking about. >> Okay. Okay. And you pass the movie theater. >> The movie theater's on the left. The new movie theater. You pass it on. >> Yeah. How far? Probably five or six. Um, uh, I want to say it's not feet, but, um, not even >> maybe a football's field, I guess, would be the best. >> 100 yards, >> maybe 100 yards, something like that. Maybe 150. >> So, you turn onto that dirt road, you drive down about a football field, left or right, >> left. And about 10 10 to 15 ft. And there's a little hill. There's a hill and there's basically you've got the woods or here's the road over here and there's a bunch of trees and crap and then there's a hill here and then there's like a little thing and she's like right there >> now. Is she buried or just tossed out there? >> She's semi buried. She I couldn't get the shovel in so it just kind of it No, not really. I don't just I mean just she's just kind of laid out there. >> She Well, yeah, she's wrapped up in in what? >> Uh blankets and some trash bags. >> Okay. >> Is she Is she all together? >> Yeah. Okay. >> There's a welding uh place over here. It's called like a stakes welding or something like that. >> That route that road he's talking about goes back to the pits. >> Okay. >> I'm not very familiar with it. >> There's a bunch of homeless guys. >> So you take a left. Yeah. >> You take a left and go down this road. It's about 100 yards and then it's to your left. >> 100 yards and to your left and >> and then in how far deep into the off the roadway? >> Like 10 15 ft. 15. It's really >> So you didn't turn the car in there. You had to stop the car and and just drag her out. And I >> Now was that the same night that it happened? You took her out there? I don't know. And uh yeah, it happened in the morning and I think I I did that at night that night. Okay. Cuz what um what I'm going to do is I want to get somebody over there real quick, obviously, because I don't want someone else coming upon that. The sooner I get somebody over there, the better. You know what I'm saying? So, I appreciate you telling me that. That's why I jumped to that real fast because if you can tell me where she's at, I need to get somebody over there to recover her if you know what I mean. Um, listen, we told you in the beginning you're a uh you're you're a human being. People make mistakes, Joe. Yeah. Not ones that cost them their life, you know, and somebody else's, too. It's all right. Just give me a second. I got you. You take a second. You step off for just a second. >> All right. >> Okay. I can I'll talk. >> You can hang on for >> All right. And I [clears throat] understand how Britney, you know, Britney reached out to a lot of people and tried to help a lot of people out. She didn't deserve this. >> And >> she didn't I don't know. >> But you know, y'all's personalities conflicted basically and that's probably what brought out the anger. Um because she liked things a certain way and like an order a certain way and and you were to a point like you like to do your thing and she was just over demanding. >> Yeah. But that's not the reason to kill somebody. >> No, it's not. But it helps us understand what happened. So I mean when you had to make these decisions you had to say okay what did what am I going to do next? So what did you do? What did I do >> next? after, [clears throat] you know, after she's laying on the floor and I covered her up with a blanket for a while and I kind of freaked out and went and bought a pack of cigarettes and then sat on the back porch and changed smoke about pack of cigarettes and [snorts] until I had decided what I was going to do and then I did it and which was basically clean up all the blood, pour bleach everywhere and And basically my goal was to buy time. I didn't think I would be getting away with anything. I just thought I would be buying time. >> And where did you where did you get the blanket from? >> You had a cupboard. >> Was it off of off of a bed or in a closet? >> Uh cupboard full of blanket stuff. >> Okay. >> Yeah, she had tons of stuff in there, didn't she? She's quite the hoarder, I guess you could say. What about the Jing about the dogs? Not >> yet. >> I was real curious about the dogs. Like how did how did the dogs come into play? >> Um well again that was a kind of a buying time kind of thing. >> Like I said originally when I I mean I wasn't exactly thinking clearly. >> Yeah, I got some. [clears throat] >> Let's [laughter] let's let's just step back before we get to the dogs and let's go in kind of like an order of how I don't want to get you confused. All right. >> So, she she's on the floor. You got a blanket. You covered her up. >> Mhm. >> And you smoked some cigarettes. And you decided >> and some weed. >> Okay. [snorts] At what point did you decide that you needed to move her? And how did you move her? >> Um [snorts] I don't know. At some point I decided I needed to move her because obviously dead person sitting in the living room is not usually a good sign. Um if anybody would ever come up I uh I just I wrapped her up in in some sheets and uh and took her into the bathroom and uh put her in the bathroom and then I came back out and I um now which bathroom was that? Joe's emotional state becomes much clearer once detectives move away from the killing itself and ask what happened afterward. He admits that he didn't immediately call police because he was afraid of prison. Then comes a crucial sequence covering Britney smoking cigarettes, cleaning blood with bleach, moving her body, and eventually driving her away. The detective doesn't need to tell Joe what those actions mean. The sequence speaks for itself. Joe describes them as buying time. And that phrase becomes psychologically significant because now the investigation is no longer only about losing control. It's about what he consciously chose to do once the danger had passed. >> Where did Do you remember where you got rid of the dogs at? >> No. Uh well, it was just a park somewhere. Um, I just drove in and, you know, let him out. Like I was letting him go to the bathroom and let him wander a little bit too far and then I got in the car and drove back and drove off. >> Okay. >> Um, >> I think it was West Virginia. >> Did you take the towers off of them? >> Yes, I did. >> Okay. Was that so they couldn't I mean, why why did you do that? So I guess so I couldn't identify him right away. I mean again all this was at this point me thinking how do I buy myself as much time as possible? Let me get off track just out of curiosity. Have you been following this the whole time on the computer? I followed it a little bit um when it first and then I I couldn't I really I didn't didn't want to mess with it so I just stopped. >> How much do you know about the dogs? Do you know did you follow us recovering dogs? >> I I do know you guys recovered the dogs. So yeah, cuz um so I guess that's um you got anything else? Well, what I thought was unusual about your pattern, I guess, across the country was you use the Discover card in the Carolinas, but then there's no activity with the credit cards across the Midwest until you get to Ontario, Oregon, and Idaho. >> How did you support your trip? >> I had cash. >> So, you had cash, too? >> I had cash, too. I originally wasn't I mean the only time I was going to use the credit cards was when I did originally. The only reason I started using the credit cards again was cuz I got pulled over by those cops, >> right? >> And I was I figured it was it was at that point there was no point, you know? >> Right. >> So I just >> Did you truly come straight to Seattle or did you stop anywhere else and stay in any campgrounds or >> I seriously came straight to Seattle. I didn't I didn't do anything else. I did, like I said earlier, I did actually go through Indiana. Um, but I didn't end up stopping there. So, >> we kept getting sightings all over Oregon. >> For some reason, there's somebody running around. It looks like you in Oregon. >> There's a lot of people that look like me, unfortunately. >> So, we thought for sure you were in Oregon. But, >> did you follow any of the news media with us coming up here? >> I mean, did you know who we were when we came in the room? Did you? >> No, I had no idea. >> Okay. >> Yeah, we came here a couple months ago. >> Yeah, >> I did know. I I did remember reading something about Manhunt and you guys thinking I'd crossed the border of gone into Oregon or something like that. Um but that was that was about it. And I had basically about a month ago I decided that because all I'd been doing was staying in Seattle here. I don't even have any friends here or anything. I just was uh for a while sleeping in the car and and then uh um basically staying out. I mean I didn't have ID or anything or um and I'm not exactly versed in trying to >> I don't know basically I could have done a bunch of things and I didn't do them and I kept wondering why I I'm not doing these things and I'm realizing that well it's because you don't want to. You >> you're not that kind of person, right? Yeah, >> you feel a lot better by getting this off your chest now. I I can already see it. And you It It helps to talk about it. You probably haven't been able to talk about it to anybody, >> have you? You just been keeping it bottled up inside the whole time. >> Yeah. >> And you and Listen to me. You did the right thing. I wasn't lying to you when I said there's a big difference in portraying yourself as a monster by not cooperating and somebody who made a mistake. Because, you know, if we' have walked out of here with nothing, at some point the car would end up getting found. Because when I walked out of the room earlier, Seattle PD is already looking at every library in the city. So, sooner or later, that car would have popped up. And you know, there's going to be DNA evidence in the car. And you know, there's probably going to be stuff on your computer and on the computer from the house that indicates something strange, I guess you could say. I don't think there should be anything on the computers to be honest with you. >> Were you Were you googling anything before you left? >> No, I don't for >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, that that I was doing. Yeah. >> I mean, obviously that's strange. >> Yeah, I guess so. >> Yeah, it plays a big part. >> Is there anything that you haven't told us that you think we need to know? I mean, is there any is there any other crimes you committed across the country? You know what I'm saying? I mean, seriously. I mean, I know you were worried and down on your luck and needed money. I mean, you didn't commit any robberies or >> The only thing I've uh I've done is is steal from Safeways and for food. That was about That's about it. >> How' you pick How'd you get a hold of that computer that you had with you? >> I I've had that computer for a while. I had that when I was a little staying with Britney. >> Okay. >> Oh, okay. I thought that got confiscated in your car or something like that at one point. >> Yeah, actually that that one did. That one was the the one Claire bought me that um had a lot of work on it that got lost. Um >> yeah, that one uh that one got got taken by a friend in and pond so he could get his chopper out of the >> freaking thing. So that I Anyway, >> so so you had the computer the whole time? Did you ever go up on any of your emails or anything like that to check your emails or anything? Do I look like an idiot? >> Nope. You don't. [snorts] [laughter] [gasps] And like I said, f you want me to be honest? I could have been gone. >> Mhm. >> I've been in the country for, you know, three three and a half, four months now, I think it is. >> Yeah. Joe now describes a series of decisions designed to delay discovery, leaving the vehicle, taking jewelry, manipulating the dogs, removing their collars, and trying to stay ahead of investigators. What makes this section revealing is the consistency of one motive buying time. The detectives don't have to manufacture a contradiction. They let Joe explain his own reasoning. Then they introduce another pressure point, the trail of credit card activity and his movements across the country. Suddenly, the journey itself becomes evidence, and Joe's earlier claim of simply driving straight to Seattle begins looking much harder to maintain. >> So, now somebody did break into her house. >> I did not break into her house. >> I know that now. You've been It really threw us for a loop because here >> you've been on the run for so long and then her house gets broken into in what, August? Middle of August. >> Yeah. >> And we thought for sure. I was like, "Oh my gosh, did he double back and get to Indianapolis somehow and he's strung out and he needs to get something?" I don't know. It was just weird. It threw us. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> But uh I mean it is what it is. Somebody But yeah, somebody broke into our house. >> That was one thing. >> I'm sorry. That sucks. >> Um yeah, that's one thing I wanted to make sure is I didn't involve any of my family and I didn't want them I mean I figured they'd eventually learn about it. I was hoping that this kind of sucks that you had went to everywhere I used to live cuz >> Well, I mean, at the time I didn't know exactly what had happened. I mean, we had to try to find you, so to speak. I mean, I had to assume that you'd try to go somewhere >> or that you were familiar with, you know, but is there >> Yeah, eventually I would have ended up in in South America somewhere probably. Is there anything you haven't told us that you think we need to know about this incident or anything else? >> I don't think so. I think I've gone over everything. You guys already knew about the Walmart purchases and the Yeah. >> the the shovel that you buried her with. Where is that at? Is that at the house? >> I have no idea to be honest. I mean, I would assume it's probably at the house. Um, I like you said, I don't know if it there's really I mean, it was pitch black dark and I was >> trying to hurry cuz I didn't want to get caught and all this. So, it was not a a decent burial. Not anything she deserved. >> I mean, do you think it's going to be obvious to us or do is it is she covered up pretty good? >> She's covered up, but I don't think it's it's covered up covered up. I mean, it's been a minute, but she has trash bags. So, >> um over her just basically wrapped around um for I guess I did for smell and for just >> Is it wrapped around her whole body to trash bags? >> Yeah, >> cuz that'll help preserve. >> Yeah, that's there's I figured as much. Anyway, there's there's three of them. One two of them and then one of them's in the middle that was cut >> and then the blankets over her. No blanket. >> Blanket first and then Okay, I got you. >> All right. Is there anything more about the actual event that you haven't told us? I mean, was it simply an act of rage and he used a hammer or was there was there a different weapon? Was there more violence involved? there. All I know is there was a hammer and there there was an ridiculous amount of blood afterwards and that um [sighs] she was still alive for a little while and that um her throat was cut as well and I don't know how that happened. Now, you're saying that because you're having an actual memory of seeing it cut? I >> I don't know how that happened. I honestly don't. >> Well, I think you know how it happened. You just don't remember. >> I just I don't know. I don't remember doing it. >> I got you. Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. >> Well, that's what I what I'm getting at obviously is when we go out there, if there's anything left that's still intact, I just want to make sure you told me everything. I don't want to find something that you didn't tell me about. That's all I'm saying. >> Well, that's that's everything I know. I mean >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Now, was her throat cut before the hammer or after the hammer? >> I don't know. I I would assume after, but I don't know. >> Well, let me think about it for a minute. I mean, I'm trying to help you remember, right? And I'm saying I think it was I don't know. I I remember. >> Well, you said she was still alive for a few minutes. >> Yeah. >> So, did you did you cut her thread because she was still alive for a few minutes? >> No. I I mean, it was it was after, but before I don't know. I honestly don't know when I I really [clears throat] don't. >> Do you know why you cut her throat? >> No. I mean, >> where'd you get the knife from? Was it like a knife you had or a kitchen knife or what was it? [clears throat] >> Had to be the kitchen knife. Probably >> I don't have any knives any knives. >> Was she on the ground when he cut her throat or standing up? No clue. I I was after she had to be on the ground. I Yeah, I don't think I I don't think it's going to matter, man. I'm a monster no matter how you look at it. Is there anything else that was done other than the knife and the hammer? >> No. >> Now, do you know what you did with the knife and the hammer? You know what happened to those two? >> The hammer got thrown away >> in the dumpster with the other stuff. >> Yeah, I can tell you which. >> By this stage, Joe isn't simply describing what happened. He is revealing how he tried to control what investigators would believe. He admits misleading police about his intended route and even explains that he wanted them looking in the wrong direction. Then detectives return to the physical evidence. The house, the vehicle, the burial site, and finally the weapons. The most disturbing shift comes when Joe reveals that Britney's throat was also cut, something he initially couldn't explain. He repeatedly separates himself from the action by saying he doesn't remember doing it till finally confronting the identity he has been avoiding. I'm a monster. Yeah, I think it's that's what it is. >> What was what was when you and Britney met? I know you guys met [clears throat] in the Barnes & Noble and it was kind of a business relationship. Did you guys ever become intimate or anything like that or it was just strictly like um she was helping you out? >> Strictly it was strictly supposed to be business. It was strictly that was it. >> Okay. And building web pages, right? Or something? Basically, she wanted to she wanted to open up online stores. Um, okay. >> And, uh, and I told her I could help her do that, and I could. And then it kept evolving. You know, it became, well, let's let's get an actual business going. And I was like, okay, well, you know, I'd love to do that. You know, that's great. That's exactly what I want to do. I want to own my own business. >> Right. Cuz you're good at computers. >> Yeah. I mean, well, I try to be good at computers. And anyway, so I I was like, "It's going to take a while if that's what you want." Because if she just said wanted the e-commerce site, I told her I put that up in a week. It's not not hard at all. I just need the workspace and something to do the work on cuz the computer I have that laptop that you guys now have is not really it's not good enough. It doesn't it's not going to be able to do half the things I need it to do to do web design, right? >> Okay. So, she bought the computer and we agreed that I'd start doing it and that she would um help out with the sales side once it was up and also help write the articles. And then when I came to her and said, "Well, look, these are the article." I started sending her articles I need to write have her write. And she kept coming up with excuses. Long story short, and you guys don't want to hear this, but basically it was just it wasn't working. It was, you know, she just things like you said, I guess we had a clash of personalities and if I had trust my instincts, I would have left the second day I was there. But I was in such a bad spot that I just felt I can put up with it. I mean, you know, it doesn't it doesn't matter because I could tell that she was a little and I hate to say this, she was a little bit, you know, not I want to say she was nuts. She was a very nice lady. She very kind and she did nothing but try to help me, but she was definitely a little nuts. Um, and I knew that it was going to cause problems. Not to the extent and not to the what happened. And I didn't know that was going to happen. But anyway, like even I remember the second day I was there thinking I needed I should leave. This isn't going to work. >> But then saying, well, >> you didn't have any go and this is better than nothing and we got to try. You can't give up without trying. And so I stayed. Yeah. >> Did she tell you why that she wanted to start building and opening these stores? >> She was well she wanted to become a millionaire and make money. So, >> okay. So, she wanted she her brother was a millionaire and she thought that she >> The interrogation ends by returning to something almost ordinary. Joe's relationship with Britney, their business arrangement and the conflict that brought them together. That contrast is deliberate. After everything he has confessed, detectives return to the beginning and reconstruct the relationship that preceded the violence. Joe continues describing Britney as someone who helped him while simultaneously explaining why he believed their personalities could not coexist. Then the interrogation closes with one final detail the last time he saw the vehicle. By the end, the biggest revelation isn't simply what Joe says happened. It's how a story that began with a borrowed car gradually transformed into a confession of murder, concealment, >> screws things up if somebody makes a mistake. But did you see your red tag on it? >> I have not seen a red tag on it. >> Okay. But a month ago though was the last time. >> A month ago it was there. Yeah. >> Okay. >> All right. Stand by. >> That's 58th and or 68th and 35. >> Okay. >> [sighs] >> I will always be a monster. Before we uncover what really happened, tell us in the comments, do you think Joe was telling the truth? And if you want more real interrogation breakdowns, subscribe and stay with