I'll admit I killed her. I killed her. I killed her. >> Okay. I shed it. I shed it. I can't take her back. [Music] >> Well, what? What's so funny? >> Meet 73-year-old James Praapovitz, an evil grandpa who has just made the biggest slip up of his life. Because 6 years ago, James' wife, Victoria, disappeared in one of the strangest homicide cases Wisconsin had ever seen. >> Vickiy's dead. Vickiy's dead. I did not do nothing to that woman. I did not hurt her. >> And now detectives will uncover the truth behind James' words. One that will lead them to a secret murder plot and the fact that James was never acting alone. >> Kathy's been placed under arrest. She had nothing to do with it. Nothing at all. Absolutely nothing. >> One of the loves of your life is also in custody. Is it worth that, Jim? I mean, you are going to lose the entire world. On April 25th, 2013, police in Pittsfield, Wisconsin were called to this home to investigate a missing person. They had no idea that the call was the first step in what would evolve into an 8-year long investigation with an insufferable suspect at the helm. James, or Jim as he liked to be called, was the 67-year-old husband of Victoria Proipapovitz, a dedicated mother who always made the holidays special and went out of the way to fill every room she was in with music and laughter. But the morning of April 25th, Victoria's house was quiet, devoid of her warmth. Jim claimed that when he woke up in the morning around 4:00 a.m., Victoria was simply nowhere to be found. Search parties and investigators worked hard to find her. As weeks turned to months, they grew more and more desperate to get solid evidence about what had become of Vicki. Because from the get-go, police were certain that somehow Jim was involved. As party searched for his wife, he sat on the couch drinking beer. He told anyone who would listen that his wife was dead. On top of that, less than a month after his wife of over 20 years disappeared, he began a relationship with a woman named Kathy, who he claimed to have run into randomly at a casino. Naturally, law enforcement didn't take that well. For the next several years, they continued to question Jim. As you're about to see, when they returned in August of 2016, asking for a playbyplay of what happened the night Vicki disappeared. Jim was not thrilled to answer. The following footage was provided to us by the Brown County Sheriff's Office. >> First, the three of you sit down and have dinner. Yeah. At some point, Wes went upstairs. >> She was punching around in Remember what room? No. She puts with the bird and I I don't know. I I was laying in bed TV on was listening to watching stuff that I don't remember what I was watching. You come out of the bed. >> No, not not at all. When I woke up about 3:30, >> were you here when you told her that you were going to be going to bed? >> I was here when I said I'm going to go to bed. I went to bed >> and then you watched TV. >> I watch TV in the bedroom. Where was she when you were watching TV? >> I don't know. In the house. >> In the house. >> Okay. She was in the house as far as I >> 8:30. >> To your to your best recollection, where in the house was the last time you physically suffer? >> Right here in the kitchen when I walked into the bedroom. And that was at 8:30. >> About 8:30, 9:00. And then you uh watched me and you stayed up for how long? I don't know when that was maybe a half hour, maybe 45 minutes, maybe 15 minutes. And your impression was she was in the house? >> She was in the house at that time. Then now let's move to the next morning. Now you're up. Get up at 3:30. About 3:30. I don't 4 to 4. Yep. And tell me what you do the first thing you do. >> I get up, go to the bathroom, take a power for honey. Thought maybe she was down the basement. She'd go down the basement. show this woman. Vicki constantly had to be doing something when she was Why don't you go to the bathroom and then show me what you did that morning. And you have to I I don't I don't I went to the bathroom. If you don't remember, honey, >> honey. Well, then I went >> outed upstairs. I went up and just outed up the stairs. >> Okay. Go ahead. I just walked over here. Go ahead. Do exactly what you did. I walked over here. I said, "Honey." Okay. She didn't answer. Okay. Then go. >> Then I went here. Went down in the basement. Go ahead. Thought she was down here. Turn the light on down the steps. Okay. I walked over here. I think it was I don't remember. It's here. First floor. I walked over here, opened this door. It wasn't open. I looked in here. Okay. Did something. Nothing here. Okay. Then I went just I went looked in here. And then I looked in here. Okay. I don't remember if it was in that order. And and then Jim, do you remember if she's not answering to your yells, do you remember why it is that you felt the importance to look in every spot? >> Because she tried down here in the basement once. That's why. >> Okay. That's >> it's that simple. >> Yep. So you were looking >> I found her in that room. >> Okay. So you were you were looking to see if she was in distress? >> Yes, I was. >> Okay. Okay. That's why we're asking. That's why >> that's what I was looking for. I thought >> if she caught something, maybe I could find her. >> Jim isn't completely lying to the police here, but don't get used to that. Vicki did have two previous attempts, and she had vocally struggled with her mental health. However, her last attempt was over a decade before her disappearance. And according to her psychiatrist, who she had been seeing consistently for 5 years, her mental health was in a very good place at the time she went missing. That doesn't really bode well for Jim's continued narrative about what happened to his wife. >> You went outside. >> I went outside. Yeah. Outside I think I w I don't remember if I walked or not. Okay. I went over by the garage. I can just tell I walked over by the garage. The doors are all locked outside. I think sometimes when you walk over here I knew there was no way she was in there. Okay. >> No way. And then I walked over here. I >> from the point you got up and started looking for besides the >> Yeah. Besides that what we just walked and did. Did that take about the same amount of times? pretty close because I was going pretty fast. Good. Good. Okay. Then you went to your truck and that's when you were looking. I don't know exactly what I don't know. You thought sometime >> Law enforcement has Jim get in his car and drive them the exact route that he took the morning when he was supposedly looking for Vicki. And then just tell me, walk me through what you remember you were thinking or why you >> I was thinking I I I don't remember which way I went first. Okay. >> Seat belt on. I don't get damn ticket. >> Okay. Thank you very much. Just talk through it. >> I don't remember. I I'll show you the roads I went on. No idea what kind of state of mind she was in or what person she was. She had multiple personalities. I told you that. Yeah. I have no idea who she was if she changed or didn't change. >> What are you thinking when you're coming? >> I'm hoping I find her in Chelsea shot. >> Drive exactly the way you remember. >> I drove in here. I didn't get out. >> Drive where you drove. You drove in here or here? I don't know. >> I don't never mind. I think I drove in this one. >> Okay. Go ahead. Do what you remember best. But you said you didn't get out. I didn't get out. I drove by here. I didn't go in. Just drove by and looked through the window. See if anybody was there. Didn't see anybody. There was no cars here. No, nothing here. >> Went around. >> There was no car. >> No cars were at the >> Oh, okay. >> How about Did you go to Maplewood at all? >> No, I didn't go to >> Okay. So then you just turned around. I went back. >> Okay. So went in the shell went in the front. >> Never went to the back. >> I figured I would see her walk. I got >> the shell station that Jim claims he went to will eventually become the nail in the coffin for his case. He doesn't know this, but back in 2013, law enforcement actually collected the footage from the station on the morning that Vicki disappeared, and he is absolutely nowhere on it. In fact, he's not even seen driving by the station, let alone stopping at it. In addition, Vicki was actually recovering from colon cancer at the time of her disappearance. She often had to walk with a cane, and even with her cane, she struggled to walk short distances. The idea that she walked over a mile in the dead of night is frankly preposterous. But so is Jim. So him telling that dumb story kind of makes sense. Good morning, sir. >> Can I come in? >> Me, too. >> Thanks, Joe. I see one. >> Oh, what? Sleeping. It's noon. >> He sleeps all day. >> Um, like I told you over the phone, uh, I don't expect to take a long time very quick. I just want to do one thing today. Uh, you told us about your friend and Sean. What was his name again? >> John. >> All I want to do is you indicated that you know where the house is, but you just don't know what street it is. >> I don't know. I haven't. Like I said, it was 3 years ago. >> Yep. Not a problem. So, what I want to do is see if we can hop into either your truck or my car and see if we can find the house. It's all I want to do. >> I don't remember exactly what street it is on. >> We'll go check. I don't remember moment, >> but we'll drive. >> But you But you said you you remembered where it was. You just didn't know the address. I didn't remember exactly. I went to see him three, four different times. This guy I knew who drove truck, >> right? I knew a lot of guys who drove truck up and down 29 all the way from here all the way out into Minnesota >> and all the way down into Illinois and all the way to Michigan. >> Here's what I'm thinking, Jim. Do you normally take the highway or the back roads when you went to sh? >> I went different ways. Sometimes I'd take the back road, sometimes I'd go in on the highway. So, >> I'm not going for a ride today. I answer all your damn questions, Roman. Now it's on TV that it's a murder trial or murder investigation or death investigation. It was on TV on channel 26 or something. If this keeps up, I'm going to hire myself an attorney. I've been real friendly with you guys. I've given you everything you wanted all the time. I'm not going to drag some other people into this cuz every time I give you a name, you drag them into it. I'm done answering questions. If you want to know something about Vicki, I'll try and help you. And it was on TV. Oh, that she wasn't depressed or anything else. She was seeing a goddamn psychiatrist when when this happened. She was on medication when this happened. None of that goes on TV. No, none of that's on there. It's never on there that she attempted a couple times and was bound determined to do herself in. That was never mentioned. >> Well, we can't control. >> I know you can't control it. That's the trouble. Then the search warrant >> that went out and then you never left me a list of what you took out of the house. I never got one. I never got a list and I was supposed to get a list of everything that you took. >> So, let me kind of address a couple of things that you said. You're absolutely well within the right. If you want to hire an attorney, if you want to stop speaking with us, if you want to stop >> I don't want to stop speaking with you guys, but it's getting to be the same thing over and over and over. That's absolutely your right then. >> I know it's my right. >> Jim's son Wes and Wes's partner Crystal come downstairs at this point. Wes confirms his father's timeline about what time he got home the morning his mother disappeared. >> I'm tired of worrying. I wish you guys would find her somewhere somehow. I wish you'd find her. >> Yeah, that's what we're >> And I wish you'd find her. It's terrible. I hope she's a thousand miles away when she turns up and then there's no way in hell I could be responsible cuz you can go I don't know how you be able to do that for an hour or whatever. You'll be able to tell how many days I was at work all the time. usually six days a week, >> sometimes seven. >> So if she's located a thousand miles away, you might deceased. >> Well, a deceased or alive, I don't care. >> And if she comes back alive, good. Then everybody will look foolish. >> You know, we spoke about the likelihood of her being deceased or her being alive >> and and I understand that. And yet you hear these people showing up 10 years later somewhere, eight years later, seven years later. >> That that does happen. >> It does happen. I'm not saying it's going to. I wish it would. It would make life a whole hell of a lot simpler for everybody. >> Tell me why you why you feel like you wish you could do >> because I'm tired of fighting and trying to prove that I didn't have anything to do with it. I gave you everything you guys wanted without a warrant or anything. If you would have wanted to search the house, come here and do what you did, you didn't need a search warrant. I would have let you. But you had a search warrant. That was all in the paper. All about the search warrant. >> That's a public document. >> I know. I know. But it could have been a seal search warrant. >> I can't keep it sealed forever. >> forever. Yeah, you not forever. >> But you can't. >> I could seal it for 30 days, 60 days, whatever. But it was out instantly. >> At this point, police had indeed conducted a search warrant of the home the procapovitzes shared. Jim would be even more angry if he had any idea what law enforcement found in his home. Not only did they find incriminating telephone records, but they found several spots of blood. Yet, when police leave, Jim seems to think he's in the clear. However, he's unaware that his son's partner is waiting outside, and she's eager to give the police some shocking information. >> You have something for us before we take on >> What song? Oh, well, yeah, that's that's his business. >> I know that's still hurt. >> Yeah, I I mean, we can understand that. >> And the fact with her before that were her >> and how do you know those things? >> How do I know them things? >> Yeah. How do you know she he had an affair? And then how do you how do you know? >> Okay. So, Wes informed you of that. >> Yes. And how long ago had that been prior to going missing? >> I don't know. I mean, >> and what did what what did Wes base that off of? Did he see something? Did he just learn something, hear something? >> Okay. And and tell us more about those explicit pictures. Where did he see those or find those? >> Um, I'm not sure exactly. I think you see him a couple somewhere, but I don't know where. >> Okay. >> I haven't asked that. >> Wasn't so sure. >> Yeah. And we're working toward that. We want we want to bring her back. >> When your own son is claiming that you've had affairs, you're really doing a bad job of hiding it. Vicki psychiatrist confirmed that she talked often in their appointments about Jim being unfaithful and how deeply it hurt her. Despite Jim's attempts to look innocent, Brown County and the state of Wisconsin decided to press forward with what are known as John Doe trials, which are trials held in front of a judge without a jury to determine if a crime has been committed. The suspects in this case, Kathy and Jim, are put up against witnesses brought forward by investigators. As you're about to see, Jim didn't handle the aftermath of the trial well. Like so. >> After about two and a half hours of waiting in the interrogation room, Jim seems to have gotten over his anger. For now, at least >> Joe. >> Yeah. Okay. Come in. >> Yeah. >> Have a sit. Let me sit on here. We want to talk about a couple things going forward. Okay. Um I want to tell you about Kathy. uh some of those things. But before I do that, I have to read you your rights because you're in custody. Okay? >> Uh if at any time you don't understand a question, you don't want to answer, you want an attorney, you want to stop, you want to tell us to get out, you want to tell me to get out, Roman to get out, whatever. Okay. But I have to read you your rights. >> Okay. You all right with that? >> Yeah. >> Immediately after reading Jim's rights, the detectives get down to business. After all, they have been waiting years for this. >> Kathy's been placed under arrest. Just listen, okay? Just listen to me. Promise? Just hear me out. Okay. Now, when she took the sand, she got the same admonishment that you did >> from the judge. The judge, right? Kind of the rules. Kind of like what I did. I just kind of what your rights are, how this is going to work. Okay. She was brought here too. Okay. I just got Roman and I just came done. We just got done with her and we talked to her for a long time. She said a lot of stuff on the stand. Okay. We know that there are some things that weren't true. We know that. Okay. She has set the record straight on some stuff. This is no. >> All right. Okay. She's sorry. She's regretful. She's crying. She's taking some responsibility. And all I can tell you, Jim, is I don't know who it is down the road. I don't know if it's a judge. I don't know if it's a jury. I don't know who it is. All I can tell you is from my experience, they like to see contrition. So if I make a bad choice or a bad decision and I lied and lied and lied and I lied for for six years and I finally say, "Okay, that's it. I got I got to stop the nonsense." I think a big burden has been lifted from her and I think she's explained some things and and we have some understanding of some things. Okay. So, she wants to see you. Mhm. Okay. That's against my better judgment. Okay. Roman said, "Hey, you did the right thing, Kathy. We'll let you see Jim." Okay. This can't be a long sit down thing or anything like that. >> Is she going to jail, too? >> We'll we'll talk about that. Okay. Cuz her animals, there's no way to take care of her animals. >> We understand. We understand. Okay. But she made her choices and decisions too, Jim. Yes, I know. >> She heard she heard the same admonishment as you. When the judge says you can't lie, >> I know that you can't lie. >> I know. It just gets you jammed up and it the small the the the the snowball, it gets bigger. >> It's just not worth it. >> It's not worth it. So, when we're done here, >> if you play nice with me, we'll kind of let you see Kathy real quick and we'll let you know how things are going to play out here. Okay. But that that depends upon some certain things here. Okay. >> Yeah. What do you think about all this? She had nothing to do with it. Nothing at all. Absolutely nothing. Nothing to do with anything. I didn't do anything to what Vicky >> what what are you thinking about this? I don't care about her. We're done with her. Okay, we're done with her. She's taking her responsibility and we'll we'll go on from there. >> Do whatever you want. Ask me questions. I'll tell you anything I can to straighten something out. >> But if she goes to jail, I'm not going to be a happy camper. Hold on here. She made some choices. I know she did, but I'm still not going to be a very happy camper. >> Something tells me that Jim is not going to be a happy camper regardless because he's on the bus bound for the good old camp of corrections. Now, we feel it's important to note that there is no evidence that Kathy was involved in Vickiy's disappearance whatsoever, or that she even knew about Vicki until well after her romantic relationship with Jim had begun. Kathy was never charged as an accomplice or anything of the sort. Instead, she was facing perjury charges because during the John Doe trial, she lied about when and where she and Jim began their relationship. >> Vicky's dead. Vicky's dead. Okay. If you say she's dead, she's dead. I don't know. Vicky's dead. I don't know. I don't know. That is the truth. This has this whole case has a lot of ripples and you can see that you know it one of the ripples is one of the li one of the levels of your life. She is also in custody. Is it worth that Jim? She should be home watering her donkeys, letting the dog out, feeding the peacocks. She is a mess. And you have to admit, Jim, she's in she's involved in this because of you. I'm not laying that's just the facts. >> Yes. >> And she has come to that realization now. >> Okay. >> All right. You have to be truthful and honest, Jim or whatever you want to selfish here. I mean, you are going to lose the entire world. What do you want? What do you want me to say? What? It's not No, no, no. I It's not what you want to ask. It's not what I want you to say. >> No, it's what the truth is. >> I'll tell you the truth if you ask me the question. >> Right. To the best of your recollection, 50 goes missing. Okay. >> Yeah. >> To the best of your recollection, truthfully, how long does it take you to reach out to your friend Cath? >> I five, six weeks. I I don't remember. >> All right. Five, six weeks. >> Somewhere in there. >> I'm going to write it down. So, I five, six weeks, >> maybe longer. I >> But somewhere in five, six weeks plus or >> Yeah. >> Okay. If that's the truth, that's I'll I'm with you. Okay. You call Kathy. >> Yes, I did. You're going through a bad time. >> Yeah. Um, you've been sweet on Kathy for a long time. Good friend. >> Good friends. Whatever. Okay. You call her up. How does that work? >> I call her up. >> You have the phone number. >> Oh, yeah. I >> So, you know how to get in touch with her? >> You text her. Go ahead. And I said, "Hi, how you doing?" She said, "I know it's your birthday this month. What was your birthday in May?" I said, "Happy birthday. How's everything going?" "Well, not good." Okay. That's what she told me about Mar dying, passing away. That guy was living with her for 30 years. Then he had had heart surgery, whatever, whatever. She asked me how things were going. Not good. Vicki disappeared and she felt here I'm telling her about telling him about Marvin and and and his wife took off on it. >> So she felt crappy about that. >> She felt crappy about it. Okay. So I don't remember if it was that phone call. It may have been. I said, "How about we meet in Wittenberg or something? Halfway have coffee and just talk about it." Sure. >> No. I don't remember when it was decided what when we were going to meet or where we were going. I we knew it was going to be at truck stop there. >> I said I'll be parked out there in that blue pickup truck that I had from work. I said I'll be along. >> You familiar with that? >> No. Okay. >> Nope. She didn't. Never saw it before. Had no idea what it was, what it looked like, what they said there'll be a fuel tank in the back. You'll see. And probably pretty dirty. I said I'll park on the side. park on the on the west side or east side of the truck stop up there of the building where you know she pulled in. I recognized her when she pulled in. Did you know what her vehicle was? >> No, I didn't know what it was but she pulled up right alongside me, looked at me and smiled and I I knew I knew where to smile. I knew it was her. Yeah. And got out, gave her a hug and we talked and talked. How long? Oh, for a while. I said, "You want to stay at the hotel tonight?" I don't know. I don't know what she uses. I said, "Well, why not?" Cuz her son was home to take care of this, right? I said, "Yeah." She said, "I finally talked her into it." We ended up in bed together. >> Yeah. Got up early. I kept me. >> So, so I wasn't far off. When I say you're sweet on her, you're sweet. >> Well, I was. Yeah. Not not but I I you know what I'm trying to tell you. Absolutely. If she wouldn't have come I probably you know if she would said no we don't want to meet that probably would have been the end of it. >> Mhm. >> But she came and she met all. >> Yeah. And like I say there were years ago I know you probably heard this. I told her how many times how I got to know her. >> Mhm. And then after I quit over the road, I still kept in contact with her every three, four, five years. I call you try and remember in May, hey, happy birthday. How it's going? >> You know, so no affairs with her. No. But stayed in contact every happy birthday. >> Yeah. >> So that's accurate. >> Yes. Okay. >> Every three, four, five years. >> Yeah. >> And then we spent the first that first night together. Mhm. >> So, just so there's no less confusion, the first time you ever had with Kathy was that first time you met with her at the truck stop and then went to the hotel. Yes. And that was uh five, six weeks, maybe longer. I don't remember. >> Fair enough. Five, six weeks. >> It's worth noting that it has never been publicly revealed when Jim and Kathy began their romantic relationship. However, their first meeting at the hotel was sometime in early May, less than a month after Vicki disappeared. In addition, one of Jim's own children revealed that he told them he would have married Kathy instead of Vicki 30 years ago had Kathy not married someone else first. Not exactly what any kid wants to hear right after their mother goes missing under mysterious circumstances. >> At what point, Jim, do you find out about or how does the casino story how does that come about? Be honest with me. We just figured it'd be better than saying we met and chated up right away the first night. And >> and who thought of that? I don't remember if I came up with it or Gathy came up with it. >> And just tell me that sounded better to you guys because why? I don't know. I mean, who I mean, if if you if you got two confessing adults, you go to the motel, why do you have to have a story? >> I don't know. I don't know. Okay. I go out >> and you don't remember whose story that I know if I mentioned something in that way or she mentioned something that >> but there was an agreement between you two. >> Yes, that that would be the story. >> This is the story if they whatever that was between us there. We know for a fact okay there are some things domestically before Vicki. >> Yeah. >> That happened. There was some, yes, but some of that stuff did not. Give me one for instance that did happen about busting a gun threatening to go. Okay. I took the rifle in and smashed it, bent the barrel, broke stock on. Okay, that did happen. But as far as pointing a gun at him at their head, no, that I did not do. But so so some of that happened. Some of it happened, some of it didn't. But why would multiple people Jim Okay, all tell the same lie? I I don't I'm just saying I I don't understand. I don't think that's probable. >> I I think that I know where you're coming from. >> And and and do you Let's say hypothetically. Okay. Let's say it really did happen. Okay. Why? Why would What would be your reasons why you wouldn't want to to be honest about that or tell the truth about that? >> Get in tr couple, I suppose. Well, >> not not now anymore. No, but but related to to to now. >> Well, I suppose related, you know, he he was violent. He might do something stupid. He might and he was violent. Okay. Now whether whether you admit to that or not, Jim, it's out there. >> And I can tell you that it would be my opinion that Jim's probably not credible. The other people are credible because they we know that they told some truth. They told the truth about something else. And the court knows that there were lies. >> Uhhuh. Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> So it's the same thing with anybody, any profession. If you lie about this, you lie about that. >> Mhm. >> And if you lie about this and that and that, I mean, then everything is it kind of out the door gets attacked. >> And It It looks ridiculous. Do you have to give me another domestic thing that >> I think Jim wants to fix the one you just talked about? I think the whole You were fed up. You broke the gun. Uh you may have not pointed the gun at >> No, I did not point the gun at him. That that >> is there was there a time that maybe the gun they may have felt that you was pointed in their direction? >> That's possible. >> I mean, you're in a tie raid and you're and >> I talk stupid when I get mad. >> Yeah. So he probably talks stupid when he gets mad. >> I have to believe you talk stupid when you get m we we get stupid. >> Okay. So whatever you're saying or doing and you always have to remember it's maybe not what you meant >> to portray. Okay. You might not mean it but how does this person see it? How does this person feel it? You know what I mean? You don't know what their perception is. How would your daughter have maybe possibly perceived this whole kind of thing? And then and then this is your chance to say, "No, honey. I didn't that wasn't my intention, but I could see how you may have perceived that." >> Yeah. >> I don't know. >> Was there a time that you were waving cuz you were talking with your hand something around your >> You had the gun in your hand. >> I had the gun in my hand. Yeah. >> Is it possible that when you were flaring it, you know, when you muzzle somebody when you when you >> It's possible. And even with a stupid comment, all you got to be doing is waving a gun and saying, "I ought to >> Well, you ought to what? I ought to throw it out the window or I ought to kill you. I You know what I mean? Lisa, that when it happened to me swinging it around or whatever or when I took it to smash it, I can't remember if I had it by the barrel. I think I had it by the barrel and I slammed it, broke the stock off and bent the barrel out. No, just a little bit. >> And during those whole waving around waved and heard, >> this is Yes. This is all going all happened. and out of anger, you may have said something stupid like, "I'm going to hurt myself or I'm going to kill you or something like that." >> What's actually ridiculous is how Jim treated Vicki in the months and years leading up to her death. Though he denies having pointed a gun at her or any of his children, at trial, Vickiy's psychiatrist detailed years of violence and infidelity that Jim committed against her. In addition, he financially and emotionally abused Vicki, not allowing her to have money for certain treatments or medicine she needed related to her cancer. And she wasn't the only victim of his behavior. >> She flared up at times when there was major things going on with your drinking, with your lying, with your staying out too late to never be. We don't consider being unfaithful to her. >> Well, I told her about it. She found out about it. I admitted it. I told her it happened. >> So, >> I suppose. Yeah. But she had to you come home. You know what I mean? >> No. So, but that that is that is a huge knock in the teeth, man. I mean, that's hard to cope and deal with. >> I know it is because that's what happened with me in my course. That >> I get it. >> Did it. >> So, as much as it is for you, it was for her. >> I'm sure it was. I'm sure it was. >> You know what I mean? So, I'm just, >> you know, she's she's really getting a bad rap here. And I I just want to be fair to >> I'm not trying to give her a bad rap. Uh just but you hear what I'm Yeah. I don't know. It doesn't make any difference. You guys wouldn't probably look anyway. But when she was in the hospital, I don't remember if it was like the recovery surgery or the surgery, but she called 911. Okay. >> And said she I think she had changed her clothes. >> No. No. Changed. She changed personalities. >> She called 911 and she was whispering to me on the phone. Jeff, I I I called 911, but they hung up. The kids The kids are in a wall. They're They're hiding the kids in a wall. I'm at work talking to her on the phone, and she's telling me the kids are in the wall, locked up. >> We heard that story, Jim. We need to talk about what's not accurate. We've already heard that story several times. >> Yeah. From me. >> From you. >> All right. I'm sure there would have been a record of a 911 call. >> We're past that. That's fine. >> Well, I'm just telling you that what happened. I don't need to hear what you've told us. Do you really believe in in the bottom of your heart and soul that she had multiple personalities? >> Yes, I do >> 100%. Because I acting job. >> No. No. No. No. I talked to her when she would change. >> Well, I did that. But one would be a young one. >> Yeah. >> And she called me big daddy Jim. >> The next one is going to be the next next story. Jim, I don't want to hear the same story. >> Yeah. So, it's you know, it was that's what she was. >> And one was a devil. J, right? You're right. And she would make the noises or she Yeah. sounded like a like a >> and she would and her psychiatrist didn't believe it. She did it in his office. I can tell the story of her. >> All right. Well, you asked and I asked she had personalities. I told I asked >> she did. >> Once again, Vicki psychiatrist explained at trial that Vicki didn't have multiple personalities, a symptom of a rare condition called dissociative identity disorder. She actually struggled with ADHD and bipolar disorder. Jim suffers from a different condition, an unfortunately common one called liar itis. When police address this, starting with the fact that he never went to the gas station he claimed to have gone to the morning Vicki disappeared, his frustration visibly grows. >> I can't remember where all I went. I took you guys. I may have even missed some roads. Maybe you did. As far as that shell station, I may have went around the backside and came up. I don't jump. That day you were emphatic about where you were when you arrived at that station. We proved you wrong. >> Yes, >> you did. Just bear with me. Don't Don't get don't get all worked up on me, >> okay? I proved you we proved you wrong. >> Okay. You don't. It doesn't feel good to be proved wrong when you're in your but everything is going on. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> That didn't happen, Jim. >> You know what I'm saying? >> What didn't happen? >> You weren't at that station. I swear I Well, I went by the station and didn't see anybody or anything. Well, you can see a certain amount of road with the cameras though. I you where God I was by there by that station. It it it didn't happen, Joe. That that didn't happen cuz video doesn't lie to you. That's all I'm saying. Okay. I swear to God I was down that road. I swear to God I was and I was by the casino. >> You weren't in front of that station. I probably when you drove in when you drove in and you said you were right there. I stopped and I looked in. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> You weren't there. >> Okay. I wasn't there, but I was around there that that day. I was running like a chicken with chopped off looking. >> Why in the world would you drive? You were driving. You were behind the wheel. Why would you drive yourself into that station? Why would you drive around the pump? Why would you drive by the front of the gas station? Why would you tell us that you looked in that window? I thought that's what I did. I thought that's what I did. In my mind, I did that. >> What else about today that you were asked that you that just give me a big chunk thing that you can remember that you lied about? Anything. Anything that you can kind of recall that >> you don't remember anything else? >> Not that I can think of. Police have a theory on where Jim actually was instead of the gas station at that time. One we'll examine later that is incredibly disturbing, but surprisingly one that Jim doesn't outright deny. >> Let me just bring up kind of an overarching big one. The bed >> all for a long time. This all all said, >> you were in the bed. We bed. We have there is very very very very strong proof that I didn't sleep in bed. Right. That's right. Now, I have to believe, Jim, that you can remember if you were in the chair all night or you were on the bed. >> Telling us the story. So, we go away. Story about station. >> I don't I know what you're saying. That that you can remember. I that I I just respectfully I have to say you got to tell me where's your time. Okay. We can ship on some stuff. >> Okay. I All right. I wasn't in bed. I'll tell you that. Okay. I didn't sleep in bed. I slept on the chair. >> Why do I? >> Cuz I thought I was in bed. I wasn't. >> Well, then that's not why. If you thought Tell me what I I don't want to hear just anything. I want >> You asked me. I said I went to bed. >> I I in my No, I said I went to bed. >> What did you testify? You testified you were in the bed. >> The moving target thing. No, I'm not doing the moving target thing. I said I went to bed. I was in bed in your bed in the bedroom where there's a TV and you were under the covers. That's what you testified to. >> I don't know if I was under I've never said I was under the covers. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. I did. So, here's what I'm going to tell you, Jim. >> It's not a lie. If you say something when you thought it was the thing and you happen to be wrong, I'm telling you, >> you knew you weren't at that gas station. You knew you weren't in that bed. And for some reason, you lied. M. I did not know I wasn't at that gas station. In my mind, I when you asked me about it, >> I didn't ask you. You drove me there. >> Yeah, but you asked to show you the route. >> Yeah. >> And then in my mind, I'm trying to remember where all I went. >> Yeah. So, you said, "I'm not sure about this road. I'm not sure." Oh, but I remember driving past this storefront and looking in. I'm not going the video showed nothing. >> That's what I said. Yeah. >> Okay. I got to take your word for it that I didn't drive through there. So, I lied about that. I'm sorry. I lied. >> It's not a lie. If that's what you thought was in your mind. >> Well, what is it? I I don't I'm telling you you lie. You're telling me something else? Well, you're telling me I lied. So, I'll agree with you. I lied. >> Well, don't No, I don't want you agreeing with him or I if that's not the truth. I I want you to tell me what the truth is. And I'm just I'm trying to give you some rules. I know you're trying to get to get some credibility back. I understand >> because I think the judge wants to know that. I think Wendy wants to know that. I and and that you you got to be honest about the little stuff before you can be honest about the big stuff. The big reason we're here. I know. I know. I have a big reason. I mean, you're facing something really really serious. I know. How much do you want to How much do you want to help yourself out? I want to help myself, but I want to help way more. Well, let me get to that part. Well, >> way more. What? What? What do you What do you want to do for her? >> I'm going to tell her the truth cuz she told the lies just like you told and I covered up for her and she says she covered for you because you both were >> Yeah. >> You were both complicit with that. >> Yeah. >> And you I mean you can't change that. You can't erase that. You can't make that away. Can't make it go away. >> But the truth was what I told you now. And if if and if she is truly not involved in anything other than the cover up the cover, all she was involved in, you need to tell us what the heck happened so that we can clear her and get her. >> Honest to God, Jay, she had nothing to do with it. But how do I know that? You know, you got to explain how I can explain some stuff so that we can prove that. Show him that. Explain what? Tell me what that she's dead. >> Yes, she's not here. I She's not here. I don't know. She's dead. She's I don't I do this for a living. There are other statements that you have made to other people where they say uh he told us she's dead just by the way and and and it's it's family, it's searchers, it's all sorts of other people that have taken your words and they're like, "Uh, that's not good." >> Jim's statements to his family and friends were even more shocking than what police are proposing here. The day after Vickiy's disappearance, Jim's children recounted that he spoke at length about taking Vickiy's belongings to Goodwill because she wasn't coming back. He told anyone who asked that his wife was dead with no hesitation. Yet, he can't bring himself to say that when he's sitting across from detectives. I wonder why. >> So, it seems like you care for Cathy, right? >> Yes, I do very much. >> You don't want to see anything bad happen to Cassie? >> No, I don't. >> You don't want to see her away from for him? >> No. Her family, her animals, >> her animals, her family, her daughter and her son. Well, her son talked to her at least. >> I mean, you even said I got to clear her. >> Yes. >> When we sat down, you said, "I got nothing to lose." When we sat down, >> you're right. You're right. Did the officer tell you you were under arrest for first degree when they brought you here? >> Yeah. >> Here's what I'm going to tell you. >> You're under arrest for first-degree homicide. >> Here's what I'm going to tell you, Jim. We work with the prosecutor's office very very closely. The prosecutor's office takes into consideration many many different things. That includes Kathy and that includes you. As far as Kathy is concerned, she lied. She lied in a homicide investigation. She lied in a homicide investigation. Then she lied under oath. Potential exposure of that is prison. significant time behind bars, >> but really we're here at the end of the day just to recover Vicki. We don't >> we don't want her in trouble. I I can have significant communication with the prosecutor's office so they can look at consideration about really what is the objective here and that's really recovering Vicki for the family because this pain has got it is going to eat you alive and it's going to eat the family alive and everyone it's just going to keep festering and I can guarantee you that the prosecutor can really take a good hard look at consideration of what to do with Kathy, but you are her life and savior right now. You're the one that holds the key cuz we're done and we don't have Vickiy's body. There's not much consideration here. I am willing, listen to me, there's other cases that I'm aware of, that I've read about, that I've spoken with detectives and know about that even the individuals that are in your seat have received significant consideration from the prosecution and from the court and have been able to salvage something in their life and in their dignity and in the family by being truthful and honest. Now, if you want her to continue to take the ride for this this she will take a full ride. But this is chance because she's going to take a full ride. You owe the key. You know, I hold a key and I'm telling you, Roman, I don't know where she is. >> Then guess what? I don't know. >> If you don't jump in the car with us and show us, I have nothing to give to the prosecutor. >> I can't get in the car and point someplace and say she's there. I can't do it. I don't know where she is. >> I'll have to tell Kathy. You have to tell her because I don't know where she is. Roman, as much as I want to help her, I cannot go and find a place and say, "There she is." I don't know. Do you Let me ask this. Don't get mad at me. I I have to ask a couple tough questions, right? >> Yes. Is Kathy I'm sorry. Is Vicki in a way where she isn't there? Where they where she she can't be there? She's never to be had because of whatever happened. I hope no sort of >> I understand what you're saying, guys. And believe me, if I knew what happened to her and where she is, I would tell you just to save Kathy. Not to save I don't care about my I believe that. I think you're done. I think you like you said, you got nothing to lose. >> And if I knew where she was. >> Yeah. You got nothing. >> And what happened to her? >> No, you got nothing to lose. >> I would tell you. I I I I have no reason not to tell you because I'm going to go to jail anyway. >> Why would you go to jail if you didn't do it? >> I didn't do it. >> Well, the people are going to believe you then, right? I hope they don't. I think you're going to go to jail because you don't think the people are going to believe you. >> Oh, maybe they will and maybe they won't. I'll take my chances, I guess, with the jury. >> That's a big gamble. >> No, it's a big gamble >> with all the lies and inconsistencies. >> I know. And I'll guarantee you if somebody comes and offers me a plea deal, I won't take it because I will not plead guilty to something I did not do. Okay. I will not plead guilty to something I did not do and I don't know where she is. >> You have no interest in providing any kind of peace to the family. Do you? >> Yes. I wish I could provide peace to the family. Roman, I don't know where she is. >> Taking years out their life. You know, >> I don't know where she is. Roman, >> you're taking yours out there. >> Roman, look at me. I don't know where she is. >> Jim, I don't believe you. >> I know you don't believe me. I'm telling you. >> 100% I don't believe you. She didn't have any means. She doesn't have transportation. She doesn't have money. She physically can't do it. She doesn't know where she >> I don't know where she is. >> There were no phone calls. There was no other friends. There was no other family members. You know what I mean? It when you take all of those things away me >> and I did not do anything to her. I did not hurt her. This lie is just as laughable as when you say >> well then I know you're never going no matter what if she come walking through the damn door lying you say she's dead just to get me you would I did not do nothing to that woman I did not hurt her and if I did I tell you right now to save cat and I show you where she is if I knew it I do not know where she is in my car so you can do that pardon >> let's get in my car so you can show me >> dude you can get in the car and ride me around all over I won't be able to show you anything cuz I don't know where she is I I don't know what happened to her. I can't show you where where she is if I don't know where she is. I can't tell you what happened to her if I don't know what happened to her. And I would if I could if I knew where and what I would tell you to save her right now. I would tell you to save her. If I could bring peace to the family, I would. I don't think >> and bring peace to me. I would. >> I don't think that's true, Jim. Well, >> but you can't bring peace when you're lying. I'm not lying about where she is. No, you lied. God, you lied to the ent know where she is. >> You lied on the stand today. >> I lied. I I did that. I'll admit that. But I do not know where she is. So God, she doesn't go poof. I know she You were the last one to see her. You are the last one with her. >> You were the last one to hear her. >> I don't know. I don't If I knew, I'd tell you right now. >> I'd tell you right now because I don't trust you. You're you you don't want to be caught. You didn't want to be caught today on the stand >> and you lied. >> And you lied. >> All right. You don't want to be caught. I'll admit I killed her. I killed her there. I killed her. Kathy had nothing to do. Tell me what you did. >> I don't know. I don't know where she is. I I don't know how you killed her. >> I don't know how I killed her. >> Tell me how you >> I didn't. So I can't tell you. >> Did you I can't tell you. I don't know. >> Well, did you choke her then? >> No, I didn't choke her. I don't know where she is. >> Was she alive when she got under your truck? >> She never got in the truck with me. >> Did you assist her with something? No, I didn't assist her with anything. >> Did she ask you to do something? >> No, she didn't ask me to do anything to her or for her. >> I don't know where she is. >> Was it an accident? >> No. I honest God, I did not hurt that woman that day. I did not do anything to her. >> That woman. Okay. I'm sorry. I did not >> I did not hurt my wife that day. I did nothing to her. >> That is what we in the business call one hell of a confession. However, as you've seen, Jim backpedals on it almost immediately. The detective stated that to them, it was clear that Jim was saying it to see how it felt to finally admit what he had done. Jim, on the other hand, claims that he was coerced into saying he killed Vicki. Unfortunately for Jim, the police are a step ahead of him. They know that he killed Vicki, and they believe they know exactly where her body was disposed of. >> Jim, what would happen to a body if you put it in those sludge pods where you worked? I don't know. You probably never find it. >> Only I wasn't working at spots. >> I know. But if you put a body in there, >> I had access, but it wouldn't disappear. >> Well, you said you'd never find it. >> You probably would. >> I don't know. >> Well, you said you wouldn't even find it. Why did you say that? >> Because I've seen what happen with deer when they run to the deer. Tell me a lot of times they sit on top and find rot die on top >> and then they'll stay there. They they won't >> you'll see them. And as you put more sludge, they'll float away or go somewhere. It's not liquid like people think. It's solid, >> right? We walked on it. >> Oh, okay. You know, I mean, it's solid. >> So, what you said, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you didn't work there, but you had access to it. And that if a body was to go in there, you'd never find it cuz you seen what happens to the deer when they run. >> Yeah, that's what you said, right? >> Yeah, that's what I said. You don't have to be a brain no brain surgeon to figure that out. One of those. >> You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure that out, Roman. >> I'm just a cop, my friend. I'm just a cop. No. >> Right. >> You wouldn't have had to be a cop to figure that out. Heavy lake person could walk out there. >> You got access to a truck. You got access to heavy equipment. Uh you would all close. I mean there are you know what I mean up and down the highway. >> Sledge pond. I mean from from let's say West left at 8:00 p.m. Right. I don't know what time he left. >> 8 to 4. >> I don't know what time he left. >> Let's just say 8 to 4, >> right? >> Yeah. Okay. >> He wasn't there, right? >> What? >> He wasn't at your house overnight from >> He wasn't there when he disappeared. >> I don't know what time he left. >> He was How about this? He wasn't there when Vicki disappeared. >> As far as I know. No, he he went to a friend's house. We have him. >> Yeah, he went all over the place. He went to a friend's house or something. He was open right to his friend's house. And he left there when Vicki disappeared. >> And what time he left? I don't >> know. Who was there? He disappeared. There was >> just mean there was a whole eight hours. >> Okay. You're saying he left at 8:00. Then there was 8 hours. Right. I'm affording you. I'm the same thing I did. You say, you know what I mean? I mean that that's a long time, Jim, to be alone in a house and she's gone. >> So the only thing So the only thing I want is her body. That's Roman. If I can her body, I'd give it to you. I don't know where it is. >> Oh, that's colorful. You want your wife's body? >> Colorful. >> We started Hold on. We started with that woman. >> Now you get her body, huh? That's the route you're going to go. This is your wife. Oh, that is >> This is your wife that you love for 24 years. >> This isn't that isn't a way I meant >> one that was disabled because she had mental health issues. >> Okay. I Okay, I said it. I said it. >> Yeah. If I take it back, I can't take it back. And what you did, you can't take it back. I didn't do anything to her and I don't know where she is. >> Law enforcement actually tried to search the sludge pools, which are made for industrial waste. But due to the corrosive nature of the toxic substances disposed of within them, they were unable to safely search for Vickiy's body. For the next hour, detectives make Jim recount his story minute by minute. Finally, with him unwilling to admit his role in the crime or where Vicky's body is, he's transferred to his cell. >> Oh, right. Jim's trial was one of the most watched and discussed in Wisconsin's history. With no physical evidence, prosecutors had their work cut out for them. But with Jim's history of lying, his access to industrial sludge pools, and witness testimony from past partners confirming that he was violent, the jury ultimately found Jim guilty of first-degree murder. He was sentenced to life in prison. Tragically, Kathy, who was charged with perjury, took her own life in November of 2020. another casualty of this horrible situation. Fortunately, there is some good that came out of this case. Vickiy's daughter, Marcia Lords, founded a nonprofit organization, Wisconsin Missing Persons Advocacy Incorporated, which aims to help the families of missing people.