Do you feel that your actions ultimately killed her or what do you think happened to her? >> Yes, I think I was responsible. >> This is Steven Zelic, a man who would go from a respected police officer to Wisconsin's most infamous murderer because right now he is describing how he took the life of Jenny Games, a girl he met when she was just 16. >> Tell me how you met Jenny. >> Jenny was met online. She was probably 16, 16 and a half initially. But what you have just seen only scratches the surface of Steven's story because the deeper detectives dig, the darker [music] it becomes. >> The former cop was disciplined for abusing his police powers to get [music] women to date him. >> And as they race to find out why and how Jenny was killed, they will realize that she was never the only victim. >> I take her out, put her in the suitcase, back out with the second suitcase. What do you mean by the other suitcase? And I know you're saying that there are no more victims. I'm scared that there might be something out there. >> On June 5th, 2014, a highway worker mowing along North Ko Road in Geneva, Wisconsin, came along what they thought was just trash on the side of the roadway. And if you've listened to any true crime at all, you know the sad truth. It's never trash. Approaching, he discovered two large, heavy suitcases covered in dirt and mud. Apparently, on a tight schedule, he moved the suitcases and continued mowing. A few hours later, however, someone walking along the road noticed something else about the suitcases. They were covered in flies. Police arrived and discovered the bodies of two women bound and stuffed inside the suitcases. The first body was quickly identified as belonging to 37-year-old Laura Simson, a kind mother of seven who had been reported missing in November of 2013. After several weeks, the second body was identified as belonging to 21-year-old Jenny Games, a mother and student from Cottage Grove, Oregon, who hadn't even been reported missing. Fortunately, it didn't take long for police to find who they believed left the suitcases there on the side of the road. Records showed that Laura was last seen at a hotel on November 2nd, 2014 with a man. The next morning, the man checked out without her. His name was Steven Zelich, a 54year-old former police officer with a chip on his shoulder and blood on his hands. [music] Police located Zelic to speak with him about the murders of Jenny and Laura. In his interrogation, which was audio recorded, Zelic denied ever having a relationship with Jenny or Lara. He claimed that he had met both of them on Yahoo Instant Messenger and chatted with them, but that was all. Police didn't have enough evidence to nail [music] him, so they thanked him and went on their way. But on their walk to the car, their body wires caught how they really felt after the interrogation. >> This guy's a sociopath, man. >> Did you see when you ask him questions he doesn't know the answers to? His eyes go straight up to the top. >> But in that interrogation, they got what they needed, a DNA swab. one that came up as a match to the DNA left on the bodies of Laura and Jenny. Finally, police were able to take Zelic in for [music] questioning, where very quickly he admitted to everything. Well, almost everything. The interrogation you're about to hear took place after Zelic's initial confession to the town of Geneva Police [music] Department. due to the fact that the bodies were found in a different jurisdiction than the one the crime took place in. The following interrogation was provided to us by the Walworth County Sheriff's Department. >> Well, see, first of all, I appreciate you giving us the time to speak with us. Um, I'd like investigator Jeff had indicated the reason why we're here is because the hotel you claim that the incident, one of the incidents may have happened was in our jurisdiction, the jurisdictional boundaries >> lie with us. So, that's why we're out here. We're going to try and make it a lot more short and sweet. Um, and then what we'd like for you to do is to take a ride with us back to the city, point out the hotel just so we can confirm, >> right, >> we're in the right place. Um, are you are you okay with doing that? >> Absolutely. >> Okay. >> I just want to emphasize, I'm sure you heard from these guys that ultra cooperative, what they whatever you need, I'm going to >> absolutely appreciate that. And kind of just to rehash here, um you were read Miranda that you understand your rights. Yes. Okay. Um that this time you have ways of set rights and you are willing to speak to us about what happened. >> Correct. >> Um tell me how you met Jenny. >> Jenny was met online um on a website um initially on a website Ker. >> That's c o l. Yes. >> Okay. >> And uh that is a uh uh meeting say but that's >> what I'm sorry >> that's a kind of a alternative >> type of uh type of website. >> Okay. Um, >> so you meet her on the website and >> we yeah we talk and you know she's got a profile I had a profile and at some point either I don't recall it or I first maybe approached her or she approached me but uh nonetheless we started uh conversing back and forth on the website >> is it's like a social networking as well for it and she had she did she go by her full name or did she go by >> No, she went she went by her um a handle, you know, you create a handle or a name and and we I didn't know right away, but we u >> I believe it's uh through yesterday's conversation, I think her handle was uh Princess JMG. Um Princess and then capital JMG. And I guess that's her those are her initials. >> Did you know what her last name was? >> Yeah. Uh G O M A Z. >> Do you know how old she is? >> I want to say at the at the time she was uh approximately 19. >> You know, >> and where was she from? >> Uh well, initially it was out west. It was Oregon. And what stuck in my mind was Eugene, Oregon. Okay. So, how does she how does she make it to to Wisconsin? >> She she flies she flies. >> Okay. And and let me just for full clarification, you know, she was 19 and I probably made initial contact on colony with her. She was probably 16, 16 and a half initially. >> Oh, so you had like a two or three year. >> Well, we a period of time And then uh she was 16 16 and a halfish. And then there was a period of time of no contact at all, a couple years. >> Uh and I guess as it turns out she wanted to she was going to school. I think she went I think I believe she went to like a junior college >> type thing. And then um she recont you know a good period of time of absence you know maybe a year to two years. >> Yeah. during that time. So that's where you know you have the age difference. So she's 19 >> and then so then we re connect uh contactwise at that point. >> Okay. >> Jenny Games did not have an easy life. Researching her was particularly difficult and heartbreaking primarily because so few people were around to speak out for her. You see Jenny was put into foster care at a young age. When she became a teenager, she was moved out of one foster home due to ongoing problems there and was put with another where there were several children. In her early teens, Jenny became pregnant, giving birth to a baby boy who was raised by the father. Though things didn't look great for her, she persevered. She got straight A's in school, ran track, and even won championships. But the instability of her early life left her with wounds. Now, Steven claims that he met Jenny online when she was 16. What is known for certain is that after speaking with Steven, she traveled across the country to meet him, and things quickly went south. >> So, at some point in this, you end up um or she ends up wanting to come >> for you guys to meet. Y >> Okay. And where was that? >> Well, she flew in the Mitchell Field >> from Oregon. I I want to say Oregon, but I believe it could have been Vegas because I believe she had a week to two week vacation with friends or whatever. She I think she was in Vegas and then from Vegas she was coming to Wisconsin. >> Yeah. And then do you pick her you picked her up at Mitchell? >> Yes. >> Do you remember what airline she was in? >> Not specifically. No, I don't. Um, do you remember when you picked her up if it was uh during the day or in the evening hours? >> Um, it would have been maybe early evening or late afternoon. It was still late out. >> Yeah. >> August. I guess it would have been >> late. [snorts] Um, so then what did you guys meet? Um, what happens? Well, we meet and then we That would have been We would have met on a um It would have been a Friday. A Friday. >> She flew in on a Friday. Yeah. >> And you picked her up. >> The arrival would have been a Friday. >> And you picked her up in >> at Mitchell. >> At Mitchell. You drove? >> Yes. >> Your car? Yes. Your car? What car you had at the time? >> Yeah. Uh 2002 uh standard. >> What color was that? >> White. >> Do you still have that car? Uh well I have it and it's now impounded somewhere. >> Okay. So the current cars that you has Okay. >> Okay. So you pick her up and then went >> and we we uh drove to uh drove south. My intention was at least initially hotel um and uh I'm not hugely um familiar but familiar enough with you know say like highway 20 highway 50 down area >> um broad stop and that that general area and uh there number of hotels there and so that we I picked one of those hotels >> um north [clears throat] of the breath stop. >> Okay. Um, so you go right from the airport to the hotel? >> Yep. Right to directly to the hotel. >> Did she have any um belongings with her? >> Yeah, she Well, she had a a suitcase or two. No, she had a a pink suitcase. Pinkish. Um, and possibly another another bag, another, you know, smaller suitcase. >> Okay. Was her intention and you're speaking to was her intention to move here? I think overall yes. Yeah. I think it was uh our intention was going to be long term >> with you. >> Yes. >> With a you know with a with a um you know foundation with this type of type of relationship. >> Okay. >> You know that was the that was the premise. >> Okay. Now when you say that what um what do you mean by that? Well, that's I don't know how familiar you guys are with that, but it's it's a it's a dominance type of control hierarchy type of basis, you know. I mean, uh some people see some of the accessories and some of that, you know, toys, accessories, and they see and they don't understand exactly what it is. Uh it can be uh certainly face, but that's generally not even the uh focus. It's more of a [snorts] um type of interaction um um leadership follower type of dynamic uh with those type of various different tools. And uh you know anywhere uh depending on the couple or people involved it can be or not you know it covers a wide variety of you know activity. >> Okay. So what when she was coming down here what what was your guys relationship going to be in that? I think her intention was her intention was uh full-time and that was probably the discussion we were having full time >> where it was >> to you. >> Yeah. And she was going to be here permanent and it was going to be a kind of a kind of a time 24/7 type of >> Okay. >> But she would reside with you. >> Yes. Yes. I think that was definitely what was discussed and I think that was definitely her understanding. So once you guys go to the hotel room, what what occurs in the hotel? >> Well, the the short of it, I want to give you the short version cuz boy, we talked at length. Um uh the short version is was Friday night. Uh Friday she arrived. We stayed Friday night and Saturday and Saturday cuz the checkout was uh going to be, you know, like Sunday 12ish or so, whatever the normal checkout is. And uh so we we spent sat Friday and Saturday there. Um you know even I think Saturday during the day we even went uh uh east all the way to the lakefront. Um and we I think on the way back uh we had dinner on the way back there's a Perkins restaurant uh >> yeah and stop there and and uh and in between that time was u yeah there was there was u this interaction [clears throat] you know general interaction nothing nothing too serious or significant Um, I guess you could call it partially a get to know you period, you know, little bit casual. >> Um, >> part of the you mean interaction. >> Yeah, a little bit of that. Uh, um, kind of mixed with you would call normal. Um, we call it vanilla. Vanilla is a reference to now. >> Okay. you know um and uh so then that's Saturday spent the day [snorts] had some uh interaction um physical interaction Saturday nighted and uh then uh probably Sunday morning again knowing that uh check out 12ish or so and we had early in the morning we uh had u a so-called you know some play or a session. These are all references terms that use and then which ultimately got very out of hand and u a huge tragedy. >> Steven's excitement to talk about these things is as palpable as it is disgusting and it's clear that this isn't a new thing for him. Steven was a police officer for the West Alice Police Department, where he routinely used his power to his advantage. Over the course of his 12-year career there, he received more than a dozen complaints, three suspensions, and four reprimands before he resigned in 2001. That's right, he had a chance to resign despite being in trouble that many times. What was he in trouble for exactly? Many of the complaints were made by women, accusing him of harassing them, following them, or inappropriately touching them. One incident involved Steven using police records to find a woman's address. And the final nail in his coffin came in May of 2001 when police were called on him after neighbors heard him screaming. When his own department arrived, they discovered that Steven had been fighting with a call girl in his driveway and trying to pull her into his house. Steven claimed that she had stolen money from him, but the woman told a different story. Steven had assaulted her and tried to bind her without her consent. When she tried to escape, he threatened to kill her. And just a reminder, he wasn't fired for this. And uh ultimately that Sunday morning she she was uh well I was using rope and uh ultimately um there was constriction and then it would release and uh various touching you know she and ultimately I got very probably very uh excited There's no tight there's no doubt there's no sensation >> and uh at and while this was occurring um at some point it became evident um that I don't think she was breathing anymore and I also and this was explained um uh and caused by the rope there's no question about that very very exciting, intense, that type of thing. And uh um ultimately my, you know, obviously my responsibility I can't lose control. It may be pleasurable and enjoyable, but it's far more important. I have I can't I shouldn't be enjoying so much to where I lose control. And I lost I believe I lost control or I lost sense. I mean I lost the monitoring aspect of it. >> Okay. >> I think I started to enjoy the session and the activity to a point where I was no longer monitoring like I should have. Everything seemed to be fine until towards the end and then I you know must have well I did I must have gone past the point of monitoring. The failure in my part is the monitoring or not realizing >> and uh you can't do that. Look at where I'm sitting talking to you guys because of it. If Jinn's death was an accident like he claims, you would think he would use a safe word every time after. Because as you know, this didn't happen just once. >> So, do do you feel that your actions do you feel that your actions ultimately killed her or what do you think happened to her? >> No, I think I think Well, yes. I think that ultimately the I think the uh uh the actions Yes. I think I was responsible. Yes. >> Um I wanted to make I want to make it clear and I went over it with the other officers. You know, I think it was uh for the reasons that I've described to you >> versus, you know, because you know, one of the detectives said, uh, >> well, did you know, did you sit and plan it? You know, was it premeditated state? Did you sit and plan it? No. I said, this is my interpretation of what happened, >> you know. Um, so hopefully that answers, you know, your question. I'm going to say that probably they had she's fighting but I'm not noticing that's the problem at that at that highest level. That's the problem. >> So after you you felt that she had passed away. >> Yes. >> What what do you do thereafter? >> Well, that's the that's the moment of truth. And believe me, these questions were asked already. That's the moment I have to decide. you know that's I either I can either call 911 or you know call management, call the hotel, call somebody, call police, call rescue, call, you know, or panic can do what I did um and uh took her and instead of reporting it, put her in one of the suitcases, closed the suitcase, packed up everything. Went downstairs. Uh, I don't recall if I went I don't recall if I went and got a luggage curtain and brought it out to the room. Well, I I must have uh or if we had it in the room or maybe just found it in the hallway, whatnot. I brought a luggage cart into the hallway. um stacked all the luggage including the pink luggage which had her in it now and rolled it out to my car. >> She had two suitcases. What did all of the stuff in the pink one fit into the Did you take everything of hers with you or stuff? >> Did you get the room under your name or was it under her name? Do you recall? >> I believe it was under my name. >> Okay. Um, >> have you do you use your real name >> like when you get a hotel? Okay. So, you you don't use >> no full alias or something. >> Okay. >> All right. Um, so after you unload the luggage in your vehicle, take or my vehicle or whatever and uh >> uh drive home and we believe this is August. Yeah, Augustish. >> That's what we were told as well like you had said, you know, >> and that's warm. So, uh, she was taken. Uh, the suitcase was taken, of course. Uh, now what do I do? You know, I'm still in the I have no idea what I want to do or what I'm going to do. I have no idea. Uh, she comes in. Uh, the pink suitcase comes into the house. Uh, I take her out. Well, actually, I emptied the refrigerator because my only option is I how how long do I have with the heat of August before, you know, you're forced to make a, you know, make a decision. She was put in the refrigerator and really my thinking, I think, was to buy time and figure out what I'm going to do. >> Putting the refrigerator inside the suitcase still or >> No, no, no. outside the suitcase. Um, uh, naked outside the suitcase. And of course, you can imagine you got the shelving and all that. I have to take the shelving out. And now you pretty much have the empty shell of a refrigerator >> and put in there door closed and seemingly problem solved. Well, not I'm making almost light of it because it's not a problem's not solved, but it's it gives me time because I the temperature issue. >> Sure. >> So, that's that is where she stayed for quite a while. Um, and in further discussion, um, the refrigerator's empty, the the, you know, shelves and all that's out and I can't use the refrigerator. So, you know, a lot of uh a lot of uh fast food or eating at work or whatever, I can't use my own refrigerator. >> So, >> in retrospect, it's ridiculous. But that's exactly what happened. Sure. >> The fact that Steven finds it more ridiculous that he couldn't use his fridge than he does that he killed someone really says all you need to know about him. Especially when you consider what he did next a little over a year after he killed Jenny. >> And she stayed in that refrigerator. That was in August of 2012. >> When was the next time she came out? >> Very um well semi- recently. um November November of last year. November of 133. >> Yeah. November. Yeah. >> And in >> and that's ultimately um No, I take it back. No, no, correct that. I correct that. Um uh correct that. Um, November of 13 or November of 13 approximately is when I take her out, put her in the suitcase. Back out with the second suitcase. >> Is it She went back into the original suitcase, that pink one. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. And then in the uh trunk of the car now because that's now being winter, November 13 into this past winter. >> Can I say in the trunk with the other suitcase? What What do you mean by the other suitcase? The suitcase is a second incident that occurred um no uh November Novemberish early November of 13 in Minnesota. Okay. What >> without getting into details about that incident, what what occurred in that [clears throat] incident? >> Very similar very similar very similar basis. very similar very similar uh circumstances that happened that that occurred in Rochester, Minnesota where I talked to the detective today and uh early November like I think the first week um and that was the first incident after Jenny that was that was the first inerson contacted with Jane and then second girl Laura. >> Okay. So you you didn't have any more meetings with other females. >> Basically in that year, >> correct? >> Or what would it be? 8 months, 9 months. >> Correct. >> 10 months. >> Correct. >> Okay. So when you say very similar, are you you're saying that you use the same to breathe >> probably a little bit more elaborate than the second one rope and I think I oh I did utilize some some all the elements I think it was a little bit longer session. How do you monitor? I mean, what do you practice things with different people and then you just kind of know or you just kind of >> It a combin It's really the the most important part has to do with me, the dominant person. Can't get so caught up in the scene or the enjoyment or whatever. You have to basically keep your own control. A different not the kind of control we're talking about person, but you have to You have to kind of separate yourself and can always monitor. You can't fully enjoy. You have to you you can't allow yourself to fully enjoy or to fully lose kind of at the moment the monitoring aspect and that's really what I was referring to. >> Okay. >> And that's what didn't occur. So by you trying the the new technique with the nose and going further into the aspect, you don't really know until you you use those techniques on that person >> and you and then you just monitor that person throughout >> overall the session. >> That is correct. And what creates the pro an additional problem is if while I'm doing that because if I'm just doing that it would be okay because I would still be monitoring. It's it's getting caught up in the enjoyment in the moment to where you're not any longer doing that monitoring. you're just caught up in the in the actions and the fun and the enjoyment aspect of it and you're letting it get away from you. >> Lara's case is equally tragic. Throughout her life, Laura struggled with mental health conditions and addiction. Yet, in spite of her struggles, the local police department consistently spoke about how kind and giving she was even in her worst moments. She had seven kids whom she loved dearly. But it wasn't easy. When her daughter Alyssa was a toddler, she fell into a pool and nearly drowned, leaving her blind and paralyzed. Eventually, reeling from the event, Lara and her husband divorced and switched to 50/50 custody. Tragically, just a few months before Lara was killed, her daughter Alyssa died in her sleep due to the injuries she suffered. The loss hit Laura especially hard, who was incredibly close to her daughter. In her grief, she started online dating and that's where she met Steven Zelich. >> So, [music] after the both suitcases are in your vehicle, what what occurs, I guess, from November to I guess to the point where we are now. >> Yep. We're uh well, uh I still didn't really have a plan or a clue or resolution. winter gave me the temperature to you know I mean can you imagine this because I I step back and think this is it's you know part of me it's like you're kidding but can you imagine all winter long home to work work to home I mean comfortable for all winter it's just >> both right yes >> yes it amazes me and I was living it it's crazy But that was that with cold weather. It was weather driven. Plus there's two. I the second one uh I could not do anything with in inside you know I just only had a small apartment refrigerator and no other way to you know uh change temperature. >> Sure. So yes, to answer your question, both in the trunk, through the summer or through the winter, um into the spring and until recently or yeah, pretty recently. Um uh and then ultimately they were uh it was getting warm out. They had we had a little stretch of about a week of little warm weather. >> That's about it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And we had, you know, maybe less than a week. It hit, it hit 80 or, you know, upper 70 80ish maybe for a couple days and that was about it. And uh but that was enough to where it's uh uh basically forcing me to uh do something with this. I can't keep both suitcases in the trunk all summer. >> Right. Were that something that you came to the conclusion of or were you starting to notice that other people were >> Well, that that occurred and and I'll get to [clears throat] that. I was starting to notice first because there was as temperatures generally rose >> inside the car. >> Uh I had to use deodorant and spray. I would notice I'd have to open the windows and >> and it was it was slowly building. Still though at a point where outside the car you wouldn't notice. >> Gotcha. Um and then uh uh there was an incident I'm sure you know maybe you guys have read through reports or talked to other guys uh there was an incident at my place of employment where for the first time it became noticeable outside and uh no doubt uh in my mind that uh that incident of course prompted me to >> did someone specifically say something or >> Yeah, I was walking out uh the building and a guy I was passing a guy and he made a comment and um um of course just by his comment I knew what he was talking about. You know, he had no idea whose car that was. He just said, "Oh, the white one over there." And you know, he didn't make a big deal out of it in the past to me. He mentioned it. I'm in a security uniform so that's why he mentions it to me but it didn't take you know we're passing and I'm a distance away from it and um I said okay you know I got in it and my intention I was heading out there anyway to go have a smoke break >> and uh uh but uh that was the first and that was again during the warm weather the first outside person to notice. >> What did he say? >> Well, he said there's an odor over there or he said boy, he said there's a strong over od odor over there or something like that. Well, I knew immediately what he was referring to, you know. Um, you know, and then my understanding is I don't know exactly who, but [snorts] he went in and must have he must have told some other people, you know. Um, and I went and uh uh at that time I went to to a like an off our overflow parking lot where we do our smoke breaks and everything and then I sprayed some deodorant and you know it was it was obvious that uh that uh you know it was it was warm outside and this was going to be a an ultimate problem that had to be dealt with you know and and Um so ultimately uh uh because of it being forced to by the weather we hours in the morning. It was a week day you know uh and uh I ultimately uh went out and disposed. Didn't really dispose or attempted to seal too hard but took both suitcases and uh put them on the side of the road. Police now know the whole story of how the suitcases ended up there. But they have questions about how the two victims ended up in the suitcases in the first place. Specifically, how Laura ended up there? Because if Jenny was a supposed accident, then what was Laura? >> Well, um you know how we talked about that stuff with Laura, the list of the and uh the different duties to do as far as kind of part of that control. Yes. >> Did you have that same conversation with Jenny like that? >> Well, I think we probably to some degree. I can't recall um the specific conversation. It's been a bit a bit of time now back. Um I'm sure some of the conversations were similar. >> But specifically the way you you know those items. No, I don't recall that >> cuz when I was looking through that is, you know, you had a lot of detail with the ones for Laura kind of walking through different things. Um, and I know before you talked about how some of the stuff is just stuff that you say to a lot of people and it's out there and stuff like that. And so from August of 2012 and we kind of narrowed it down probably August of 2012 when you encounter Jenny. >> Okay. So from like August of 2012 to November of 2013 with Laura, do you think you were still using the same uh that kind of same mantra or do you think that >> I think >> how it was different with Jenny? Well, in general, it was probably the same and it would depend on I suppose how long one was talking to any individual [clears throat] >> and how uh you know maybe how much the conversation might have progressed to >> potentially a meeting. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Well, one thing you talked about with Laura is deleting her Facebook page. >> Okay. [clears throat] Um, do you remember talking about that with with Jenny? >> No, not specifically. >> Why would you want Laura to delete her Facebook page? >> Well, all of that is, you know, reference all of that type of discussion referencing long-term a long-term relationship under under the >> Yeah. >> foundation or, you know, basis or foundation. And then all goes to uh um the control thing and and really the switching from the vanilla as we talked about you yesterday um to >> uh you know those type of things really wouldn't be needed. you know those those uh you know cell phone or or Facebook or you know that >> I see. Um >> so there's a chance that you could have had that same conversation with Jenny. >> It's possible. >> Possible. Um, so you know how you talked about both with Jenny and Laura that you weren't set up to have a permanent that wasn't you weren't interested in kind of the longterm um, you know, setup like that. Um, I think we forgot to talk [clears throat] about yesterday that when you um, when you picked up Jenny, you checked in, it was a Friday, you check it out on a Sunday, right? What was going to happen on Sunday with Jenny if if if the incident would have happened, you know, what what was going to happen at checkout >> cuz she thought she was coming >> Friday. >> She Friday, >> Saturday, Sunday. >> Yep. And that that the intention there really was going to be a uh uh fly her or provide her a flight out and flight back because you know unfortunately I'm not or was not and am not in a position for the long term and that's where probably um shortterm was the only option you know as we discussed yesterday play or >> session or meeting Okay. So, did she have a one-way ticket or a a two-way ticket? >> I don't recall. >> Did you buy her a ticket? No. >> She bought her a ticket. Okay. >> Throughout their investigation, police made startling discoveries by speaking with one person whom Jenny was close to, a man in Oregon, who she had casually been seeing. The two were incredibly close until out of the blue, just days before her death, Jenny told him that she was moving to Wisconsin for the summer to live with relatives and learn how to weld. She promised that she would be back before the next quarter of school. The friend, who we won't name for his own privacy, even drove her to the airport and hugged her goodbye. He knew that Jenny hadn't bought the ticket herself. She didn't have the money, so he assumed that either her relatives or a new boyfriend had bought it for her. However, Jenny left things at his home, including expensive belongings. Her words to him, as well as her loved ones, pointed to the fact that she planned to return after a few weeks. Evidently, that wasn't Steven's plan. >> There was all this that control and everything up until that point. It was very exhilarating, very exciting, you know, very a very positive experience, right? en enjoyable certainly you know within the within the within an activity within the yes >> way more enjoyable right >> I would say yes but all enjoyable I mean all the activities within that >> yeah when I look at the two obviously they're very similar >> so either I consciously thought that or planned that or preferred that >> or it um maybe just naturally occurred cuz that was a maybe a pre a preference. >> So either way though kind of you you leading yourself down that path because of the preference whether because you already knew it was enjoyable. So the map the road map's already there and you're kind of going through it >> in my mind. Sure. >> Okay. >> It's like for example you you remember your first uh cigarette, right? That was a damn good cigarette. And as you go on over the years, you you enjoy it a little bit, but it's not as good as that first cigarette. You know what I'm saying? >> You're trying to rec recreate that experience, that feeling from the first one to the second one. the part when I was described very accurate. I can't say consciously that I I consciously said to myself I'm going to recreate that I like this so much that I'm going to recreate it. Exactly. Although it it is appears very accurate >> and that's why I wonder if it's can't or you won't. You know what I mean? because it's it's very kind of when we look at it, it's it's a total mirror. It's a total mirror. And and that exercise that with Jenny, if I understand from everything that we talked about last night and all the information I know about foundation and and and this is and you know that lifestyle, that's that's a pretty big deal. That's a that's, you know, that's a pretty big event. It's not one that you you would forget. It's kind of like, you know, winning the Super Bowl. It's up there on the top and all the people that win the Super Bowl, they're going to remember that Super Bowl and they're going to want to get to the Super Bowl again, right? I mean, it's it's magnified. It's significant. It puts you at a different level in the community that you're willing to do that high-end activity that requires that type of associated risk with it. That's kind of status in a way. I mean, that's kind of >> I don't disagree. I I just the only thing yesterday and today the only part that I pause with is that I don't feel or recall that I'm consciously consciously saying Steve telling myself or thinking of it so >> definitively [clears throat] that >> you know so clearly that you know talking to myself or >> imaging it that way. Do you remember yesterday how we were talking between the first one and the second one and when you got to the second one you continued to say that it was very much so like the the like the first one many times you kept referring to the first one it was the second was like the first one you know do you remember saying that to me yesterday >> very similar to to to like the first one it was almost like the same mo if I if I could you a law officer >> yes when you look at it you know Yes, the similarities of the two instances [clears throat] are they are similar. >> Mhm. >> Um the only difference the only slight part I'm pointing out is that I don't recall or feel I was consciously consciously saying you know um >> creating it or recreating it. >> But thinking back right now, what would you think? >> Well, there must have been incredible preference and and subconscious uh you know appreciation for the first one or like I just don't >> recall or feel that I was the first one like I'm going to recreate it so specifically that I just don't feel I was doing consciously anyway >> it's kind of it's kind of semantics in a way you know what I mean when you're saying >> you know the way you're kind of talking about it it's Like I'm wondering what what are you afraid of if you say, "Yeah, I was consciously planning it." How do you think that changes this? That pesky word premeditation seems to be escaping, Steven. But for detectives, it's obvious. Forcing someone to delete all of their accounts and cancel their bank cards isn't for pleasure. It's for a pre-planned murder. One that he really thought would leave no trace. >> You only have one of these guys. You probably think you got like two. I I believe two or three. >> A smaller one, you get a bigger one. >> They've almost exactly packed in the same like this is I look at this. This is it doesn't look it looks organized to you. Like you got all the special tools that you're going to need for this encounter. And if you look at the other bag, this takes planning. It's not something that you're you're an organized man. You're very organized. And and this shows me the the way these these the these suitcases are packed. They may look a little disorganized, but they're actually not cuz every tool here is >> highly connected. It it's it's somehow connected. It's somewhere is for a special event. This takes thinking out. This is not like this organized. And that's why she's trying to get you. Are you trying to to to reach the same action all the time? trying to recreate the first event because this here looks like I like it. I want to do it just the right way and I want to plan everything the right way. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yes, I do understand. >> Well, and I had to be I have to be honest with you and kind of before we talked and you know before I knew anything kind of about you and all this type of stuff. um when I was when I was reading the chats um between Laura and you and and I'll call it the disappear game. Okay. There's kind of this this flavor where you're guiding her how to disappear, right? And and it's kind of disappear game and you're being very thorough on how you're going about, you know, close your accounts, do all this type of stuff. and and I I get kind of confused in the process because before I met you, you know, and I I do a lot of different work with the FBI and I've worked with other, you know, um offenders that have did different odd things or been very violent and uh serial killers that I've talked with and and and and all that type of stuff. And when I was going through those chats, I thought, "This is perfect. This is the perfect crime because there's it's so organized. And from a law enforcement perspective, if if I go to do a missing person investigation, first I'm going to check their bank account. Well, when I go to their bank accounts or the bank, I see the actual person closing the accounts. I maybe I see video and it's the person closing the account. I go online to see, well, maybe there all their accounts are closed. I try to find their belongings. There's no belongings anywhere. They didn't give their belongings away to anybody in their family to show that maybe they were departing. You know, >> there's no bank activity. >> There's no bank account activity. So, sharing from my my experience as a as a law enforcement officer and kind of working in serial crimes, I'm thinking this this is pretty amazing. This is outstanding and how it's the perfect crime. and the disappear game where it's so organized and thought through that from a law enforcement perspective, it's hard to one, be able to prove something happened to that person, and two, a lot of times, like in Laura's case and in Jenny's case, they have some type of mental health issues that are there and struggles that they've already had that sometimes their families don't even realize they're gone because they've had such a transient kind of lifestyle before. So like when I was looking on all that I I was really I have to be honest I was pretty amazed by it. I thought this is the perfect this is the perfect game. This is disappear game and there's no way to as a law enforcement officer as I'm weaving and trying to figure every which way that I could find a suspect or find kind of coordinated. All my roads have been closed off. And so for me, you know, you talked about yesterday, you know, uh the struggles that you were kind of having with, you know, I have this inside, you know, kind of law enforcement sensitive, you know, like being involved and around this camaraderie and then I'm kind of doing things that are kind of outside of that circle and there's kind of a dichotomy there and it's hard to kind of make sense of that because they don't kind of go together sometimes. And for me, I'm having that same kind of dichotomy because on one side of it, it's so organized and so thought through. And then on the other side of it, the suitcases, like you said last night, not concealed, just kind of put there. You know, Jenny's in your fridge from August of 2012 till November of 2013, you know. So, you know, I bet you if we looked at your financial records, there's probably a lot of fast food during that time period that peaked, right? Because you can't use your fridge, right? >> I I think I mention that very specifically. Yes. >> Yeah. And so, I really help me understand that dichotomy because I'm really struggling with that because there's two different pieces there. You know, there's on one side the very organized, perfect kind of crime and then the not so organized kind of discarded. I mean, if if I didn't know better, I would say there's two different people involved here. You know, somebody else dumped the bodies and they didn't care about the bodies. They weren't connected to the bodies, so they just put them anywhere, right? and the other person that was more kind of the alpha male in it or the more you know if you had two people want to be a follower one be alpha male and the alpha males one had a plan to sell out so what are your thoughts >> I think I see the same thing I suppose I you you articulated very well um um I don't even know how to answer that I see the you know same thing there parts of the whole law enforcement thing and that and Jenny have been organized and am organized. >> I mean Jenny was has been missing since August of 2012 and nobody reported her missing. So if nobody's reported missing, we're not looking for anybody and there can't be anybody that's caught for that crime if we don't know the crime has been committed. Right. >> Right. >> Were you part of that organiz? I mean, did you did did you do things to try to help organize her non-report status? I mean, like, did you tell her I things like you told Laura, you know, get off of Facebook, close your account, get rid of your car, don't pay your tickets, don't renew your driver's license, don't tell family where you're going. I mean, all all that stuff to like So, when she if she does disappear, again, there's nothing that follows her. I don't believe we had such specific u [clears throat] conversation >> okay >> on that with Jenny um uh so many topics here I don't I don't think I knew Jenny's uh circumstances as well as maybe have been covered since >> Mhm. uh the phone thing. Don't give me enough credit to where the phone I am not a smart guy, a smartphone um type of guy. >> Like Jenny, Laura also deleted all of her accounts and turned off her phone as Steven commanded. She didn't have her kids at the time and likely expected a little weekend getaway before she returned to the struggles of her daily life and the grief of having lost her daughter. >> Why would you or why would I? [clears throat] repeat or close to repeat a scenario that did not work out >> terribly the first time. >> Mhm. >> When you know you enjoyed it so much, it was very enjoyable and very exciting. and then expand on it a little bit longer >> and duration and variety and um >> oh I think I I mean I've thought of I backtracked and thought of >> that defies uh logic >> why did you do that >> I that why I don't know so then we get we fast forward up to Laura knowing that that significant event that occurred with Jenny happened. She's still in your refrigerator. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> She's >> right. >> You say you were trying to change your butt positions and stuff. >> No, I didn't. She changed. But yes, but all of that's weighing on your mind. It's pretty big deal. I have a dead body in my refrigerator. >> Huge. Huge. >> Big deal on your conscious and your heart. Right. We fast forward to Laura. You're going there. You have 5 hours to get there. You leave your phone back in Milwaukee. All right. We're looking at all the things that you had organized and prepared. Okay. When you pick up Laura in Farmington, >> right? >> You come to Rochester, Minnesota. Was there no factor in your head going, "Oh my god, she actually brought all of her with her. I mean, she's following through with this this full-time. She did all the that I told her to do. >> Yeah, she's >> Were you kind of surprised by that? >> Yes. Like, no, she's got all the she's bringing. >> Yeah, it was uh, you know, more more than just talk for her. >> Okay. >> You know, um, followed through. Um, yes. And she had, you know, the three or four bags or three bags and a duffel or whatever she had. And uh are you thinking when you spend the weekend or the overnight with her? What am I going to do with her? I can't take her back to my apartment cuz I have a dead body in the refrigerator. >> Right. No. And I did think of some version of that. And my plan was it was a close it wasn't a long drive um from Archester back to Firmington. Firming whatever. Yeah. >> Okay. Did you discuss why' you bring all your stuff? Are you Why did you Why are we going through with this? I mean, why are you Why did you pack all this and bring it with you? Did you have a discussion about that? >> No. I mean, no, I did not address that because it was cons what she did was consistent with what >> what you told her to do as the patrol factor and all. Okay. I probably at some point uh Sunday would have had to uh you know basically uh we got to leave pack up your stuff and instead instead of turning left and heading south or heading to Milwaukee I head right back up to Farmingdale and and drop her off at home. That was the plan. At least that was my plan. >> So knowing that now you're in this situation in this session, right? >> Knowing that she isn't going to come home with you, knowing that she packed all of her got rid of all of her stuff, did as you told her to do. Knowing all this, and following through with the session to the point that it's almost identical to Jenny's session, >> pretty close. Yes. >> Okay. I'm having a hard time and I'm just having a hard time once. Shame on me. I still have a dead body in my refrigerator >> again. And I'm a expert or very knowledgeable in this thing. >> I'm not I'm not an expert. Yes, I have enjoyed it for a long period of time. >> But you're in that session. You're doing that. You're flirting with death. I mean, you know the last time cuz you didn't do it with anybody else between those two girls. >> You have to know that what I'm doing is dangerous >> is most likely going to kill her. >> It's dangerous and risky. I'm not I wouldn't say most likely going to kill her. That would be >> Do you see where I see there would be a motive for you to kill her? I mean, do you see what I'm where I'm coming from? Like I said, what he couldn't see was how clear it would be to law enforcement that accidents like this don't happen twice. Especially when both women have a very clear one-way ticket to a hotel room. But there's another factor, too. Killing someone in this manner doesn't take seconds. It takes minutes. How long do you think a medical examiner was going to tell us? How long does it take to choke someone to the point where you kill them by doing that with the rope? How long do you think? I don't know. Especially the thickness of that rope. I bet you it's going to say maybe two to three minutes. That's a pretty long rage. I don't buy that Laura was killed by accident. I don't. I'm sorry. You know, I I can see I can see your point of view with Jenny. I mean, oh it went too far. But you know what you're doing when you come to Rochester. You know how to do it. You've done it before. You're in the situation. You're in that session. I'm not not sure what your motive is, >> but I can't buy that she lost her life by consenting. There was no point that you orchestrated or that you implemented any measures to prevent her from dying from that activity. knowing what happened to Jenny. At no point did you think, okay, I'm going to not do this. I'm I'm not going to do it to the level that I did with Jenny or I'm going to make this very simple. I'm just going to do it really quick and I'm going to count to five and I'm going to be done with it. There was no thought or anything like that that that made you consider to make any changes with Laura. For the murder of Jenny Games, Steven pleaded guilty to a reduced charge of first-degree reckless homicide, resulting in 35 years in prison. For Laura, he was sentenced to 25 years on charges of secondderee murder. On top of the homicide charges, he was given an additional 10 years for hiding their bodies. In total, he was sentenced to 70 years in prison, which thankfully means he will be behind bars for the rest of his life, which should be fine, right? Given that he dubbed himself Mr. their handcuffs. Our thoughts are with Jenny and Laura as well as their families and especially their children. Reading about them and their struggles is a reminder to be gentle with those around you and to always take care of the ones you love. Thank you for watching today's video. Whether you're new here or have been with us for a while, check out one of the craziest cases I've ever covered right here or one of my newest uploads right here.