Carl Carlson knew his sentence would be 15 to life as he was brought to the Sona County Courthouse in waterl the smirks the grins it's it's like it was a game there was no trial Carlson had admitted to killing his 21-year-old son for $7,000 in insurance money it was a cold case but it was the family that helped solve it you're feeling the pressure and you are not able to tell the truth right now if you really truly felt it you what you did was right in which I think you did ad minute all right I I did not kill Le there's no way I could have but he was dead when I went in [Music] there this video contains the interrogation of a man who killed his first wife in a house fire and murdered his son several years later Levi Carlson had a strin relationship with his father Carl and left home as a young teen after a whirlwind marriage and becoming the father of two children he grudgingly accepted his father's help finding a job something that became even more necessary when his wife divorced him while he was depressed over the end of his marriage he had a well-paying job and was able to support his children when Carl asked him to come work on his truck Levi agreed what he didn't know was that the tragic events of his childhood were about to be reenacted Levi's mother Christina had died in a house fire when Levi and his sisters were very young Carl had just taken out a large insurance policy before her death it was ruled an accident Carl had recently convinced Levi to take out an insurance policy as well one which he would manage for Levi's daughters in the event anything happened when Carl and his second wife Cindy returned home Carl went out to the barn to check on Levi it wasn't long before he rushed into the house saying that the truck had turned over and crushed Levi beneath it once again Carl Carlson claimed the insurance money Cindy Carlson was suspicious it was too similar to what had happened to Christina Carlson years before as well as an insured horse that died in a barnfire that Carl also discovered fearful for her own life Cindy went to the police with her suspicions and agreed to wear a wire while being recorded Carl confessed to killing both Le I and his wife Christina we have to read police officers if you're if you're in the police station and we want to ask you questions about a suspicious circumstance or a crime which we do you're we're obligated to read you your rights I don't want you get nervous about but we're going to do it because we do everything by the book okay so you have the right to remain silent anything you say can what be use you against a court of law in a court of law you have the right to talk to a lawyer and have a lawyer present with you while you being questioned if you cannot afford to hire a lawyer one will be appointed to represent you free of charge before any question if you wish you may decide at any time to exercise these rights and not answer any questions or make any statements do you understand each of these as I've explained to you yeah I'm sure you do having these rights in mind you wish to talk to us no so now that we got that out of the way so let me I heard what you're saying the car and and I I kind of know where you're going with that about you know how you you were just going to play the game that you said some things your wife I think what you can tell us is that you were just leading her on and that what you were saying was not accurate oh yeah oh yeah by 100% well listen to me okay we've been doing this for a long time mhm and you were doing the right thing in there when you were talking to your wife you were being the person that you were and that you are your whole life which is an honorable person right you've made tough decisions and when you were in there talking to your wife you were exactly who you are you were being honest to your wife about a decision you made oh no I no I wasn't to benefit your life and your and your family so don't come in here no no okay you guys don't know what happened that day tell us about it the day that my son died her and I we had a funeral to go to left at 11:30 qu 12 somewhere like that it was on the other side of sen Lake um son was there he helped me we were working on the truck changing the transmission lines brake lines the whole nine yard um went in gave him some money left went in where went in the garage okay and um so we got done with you know talked to him said goodbye he was going to work on his truck later in the afternoon cuz he had to change something I don't I can't remember what it was and um so then we uh left come back a little after 4 and went out there and found it and that you know then we went to the hospital what do you mean you found him I found him dead okay the truck was on him um they come in tried doing CPR and he was already gone um talked to the um went down to the hospital um and they said he he had died right around one or 2:00 it's right on the death certificate and all that stuff and I asked him I said you know and it's a question you hate to ask but it's like well let me tell you let me stop the time that they put on that that sheet is the time that he was discovered and pronounced that the fact of the matter is he died just like when you were being honest that's when he died if you if you're going to go through with the scientists and the doctors who conduct those things that's what they're going to tell you they're going to tell you that you were telling the truth and that's what corroborates everything is when you're telling when you're telling the truth to your wife and you're being a good person like you are no I did not kill my son and I I no one said you killed your son and what we're saying is and what we know to to be true what we know to be true is you pushed that car over us I did not well the only thing that remains to be found out is if what the reasons were no now here's the thing you confessed to your wife I lied to my wife Carlson's wife went to the police about her suspicions and agreed to wear a wire Carlson confessed and he is going to have a hard time walking that back what you I'm he are you ever wired and be honest yes we do I thought you did it's all recorded and it's witnessed in fact these gentlemen look familiar no I these ladies look familiar no okay you cannot listen to me listen to me please it's too late you went with your conscience and you did the right thing what you're GNA do is make yourself look like a monster now because it's not just a matter of what you told your wife it's not just a matter of that there's scientific evidence well I'm sorry I I did not push not push it over you are going to ruin the rest of your life by trying to go against your character that's what's going to happen here you've got to be smart about this you've made you made then I guess you know I'm sor made decisions here along your life that we can respect you've made difficult decisions and the fact of the matter is you did what most people would want to do but don't have a chance I understand what you mean by that what I mean by that is exactly what you told your wife your son unfortunately was flawed like everybody else he he and just like you told your wife and multiple times that you did what you had to do you took an opportunity to benefit your family no I believe you when you say that those are your words and I think you made a decision that was more difficult than anything else and you cannot now take those words back you can't do that it doesn't benefit your family it's completely against your character and it doesn't help you any you were at your finest moment when you were making decisions to to benefit your family that they call that murder I never called that murder I do you're that's what you're nervous about now no I I just you're afraid that you did the right thing and now you're sitting here saying oh my God I'm trying to help my family and now I'm in trouble okay what needs to be done call we we want to find out what's in your heart so we know what to call it I would call that murder why don't you talk to us about what really happened and then we'll tell you what to call I would call that murder well that's what you're worried about that's what you're worried about no I would call that murder just be the person you are you don't kill your son you don't kill anybody for money listen money is one of the biggest motivations for murder and Carlson should know after all this is his second time murdering a family member for insurance money I recently released another highly intense video on my patreon an explosive altercation between two cops where tension escalated so quickly resulting in a drawn gun and a devastating gunshot in a mere 26 seconds witness the events unfold as two officers engage in a fight that turns deadly watch this video and more at patreon.com stranger stories plus what say anything about money what are you talking about how do you figure benefiting what what is theit you told your wife was that he was a drain to your family and these are your words these are your words well these are your words we knew he was into drugs he was not into drugs you're you're the one that said these words please don't I'm don't try to be angry at us because we're talk you said I'm just telling you number one he was he if he did anything he might have smoked marijuana well it doesn't mean you knew about it car I mean right I mean as far as I know he wasn't in don't make a mistake now and and try to back out of this no then you can salvage this you what when we listen to what you say we think that this is what I think I don't know what you think I think this is a man who H his life has been working for his family trying to do the right thing you got a bad back you've been in the military every day is probably a nightmare for you to have to get up and work hard to provide for your family there's no doubt about it when we walked up to the car today you come out of that car like you're like a a a launcher unfolding out of that car but yet you've been providing for your family right and nobody thinks because of what happened to Levi that you're any less of a person I actually think in my heart that I have children and it must have been the most difficult thing in the world but you were able to do it and I'm not saying it's right don't get me wrong I'm saying that you made a difficult decision and now you have to live with that decision and you know what you can sit here and Sh your head guess I guess my point is let me ask you this what what are you get that you know what I'm saying I'm not beating around the bush don't beat around the what I'm saying is that you're asking me did I did I I'm not asking you I'm telling you what we know to be true that came out of your own words you push the car over on your son you said it we've heard it it's a matter of evidence along with several other things that will prove the same thing do not make yourself look like a monster you you you did what was in your heart and now you're trying to you're trying to pull back cuz you're now for the first time in your life you're worried about you before you worried about your family now you're actually wor about me is that right I mean how you live how you you know you're worried about you now when you should be worried about your family well the only one in my family right now is me and my daughters and my you know I mean like your grandchildren oh I worry about them worry about them you you you put yourself in this position I'm not judging you but this is where you are and I think you can you can you're a Crossroads now what is done is done you can't come back and say I was trying I was lying to my wife I was playing detective you can't do that because nobody believes it that's just not the truth what you did say and when you were telling the truth makes sense see when I talk to you now and you're saying oh you know I was just playing detective I think this wait a minute this is not the guy I thought he was when you're talking to wife and you're talking about you know you know I'm going have to talk to God somay when you're saying those things you are who you are that's who you are you you truly feel like you're going to have to answer to God one day and you know what someday you're going to have to but here's the thing when you do this you look like a when you come in here you try to backtrack you are not paying a good picture yourself you look like a criminal when you do that cuz that's how criminals are when we go to the city of Rochester and I work in a Major Crimes team we travel all around 10 different counties in cities in urban areas in rural areas and we talk to people and wherever these places are criminals are the ones that immediately no matter what they do they're going to lie about it well I think you get on that you get on no listen listen to me that's not who you are that's not who you are you have not been a criminal all your life so when you come in here and you start lying you should stand up and say you know what I've made decisions most families suffer and go down the drain because there's not somebody in there that's willing to make decisions you made a decision and up until when when was your last lunch you were standing by it you were trying not to drag your family into it but somebody pulled it out of you got the truth out of you and she didn't get the truth out of you well she did get the truth out of you and you're only hurting yourself by trying to tell a lie now cuz no when you're telling when you tell the truth which is more difficult you're looking out for your family I don't think when you're in here lying you're only looking out for you and that's that's a fact of the matter in your mind right now you're you're thinking what am I going to do what am I going to do I got to get out of this I got to get out of this and the fact of the matter is when you were to tell the truth I guess no I right now I guess I'm a little I just woke up number one and I it's sort of like this is not what I expected my day to go like well this is your day right now I know this is your day and you have to account for what you did I don't think you murdered your son I don't think you said I'm going to take this guy out and I don't think it had anything to do with money I think it was exactly like you said this this person was flawed his life you you said he experienced marriage he experienced kids his life has been LED everything from that point on was going to be painful to him it was going to be painful to your family and I think what you did was try to help him out and help yourself out and nobody in the society wants to hear that but it's the truth and I can only think of a very few people who are willing to make that big sacrifice and I'm not saying what you did was right or wrong but you did it and now it may very well have been the right thing to do I don't know Carlson is confused by the detectives seemingly contradictory insistence that Carlson killed Levi but did not murder him he senses a trap and isn't going to walk into it willingly you knew in your heart at that time it was now you said something about money I don't believe that I don't believe that you did anything for money I don't believe that for one second because there's nothing there's no amount of money that can make that worthwhile but you but you brought up money did you do anything like this for money no okay then just please be honest so you can I guess I'm just really I've never been in a position like this so I'm like you know right now I don't know what to think just tell the truth and I am but it's just I not tell the truth let's start let's start from where we are this we're not always this fortunate usually we have evidence which we have in this case a lot of times we have physical evidence we have this we have a time of death that you have been going through and telling Cindy that you know the time of death is here and that's all I know I mean I'm not well here's the thing here's the thing that's wrong he di just like you said doctor lied to me car I'm telling you what you cannot you are not 5 years old you cannot get caught with your hand in a cookie jar yeah tell the truth and P you can't do that look the doctor well then you know what I want a lawyer or something I guess because I don't understand what you guys aren't listening to me well we want to hear the truth and and I'm trying to tell you but you're just saying I'm lying so it's like you know I'm sorry you know and that's what I don't get is that I would do anything to have my wife back it's not that I can't go on in life and have a another female that's not my she took my son ago you you asked for the turn so we're not going to ask you any more questions it was you said I guess I guess what do you mean you said I I I guess I you said I need to talk to a lawyer I guess do you want to continue to talk to us we'll continue to listen cuz we can end this now if that's I mean we'll just go on with what uh we know you know I mean no I don't want I did not have anything to do in Leo stuff nothing thing you get to let us know yes or no do you want an attorney right now and you want us to stop and just go with what we know or do you want to continue to talk to us and and try and work this out it's up to you you got to give me a give us a solid a what's called a clear declaration my friend you have to let us know for sure I mean are I being arrested we're not there yet I can't tell you what's going to happen or not I can't tell you we wanted to give you this opportunity to come in and tell the truth and so far you're not doing that do we have enough to arrest you yeah yeah and we don't know you I mean you could talk Lieutenant it's his Department it's his case I have we have to make a decision and and if we do an arrest we have to discuss what would be appropriate depending on on the circumstances and that's we know a lot of what happened but but only you Carl knows what's in your head oh I know I well I know what's in my head and in my heart don't Li us I well we know we knew that you were in the in the in the Air Force yeah and we know that what does that have to do with that because I respect you for that are you proud of the time you spent oh I am I would I love you should be proud of that and I know that when you were in there like anybody that does military training you probably were trained to make life in depth decisions right I think you just made one when when it came to Levi I think there was a problem and you did what you were trained what you were programmed to do no I I don't I wasn't I don't agree with that I don't well let's get straight though do you want to continue cuz we'll continue to listen this whole thing is about we don't have to talk to you we wanted to give you this opportunity but you mentioned the word lawyer to me you said yes is no I just because I'm like or gu if you want we want to make sure keep talking okay so you do not want a lawyer right now not right at this minute no okay okay okay I mean I just I just feel like you guys don't understand what you know my wife and I the last couple years we just hav't been getting along the relationship became strained when Carlson's wife began to believe that not only had he murdered his son but his previous wife he was lying about finances and he became angry when he had to admit his spending was out of control it mirrored the events of his first marriage and his wife was concerned that she might end up dead as well and it was to do with my the duck business and stuff like that yeah and um she never liked to farm you know which why marry a guy who Farms makes sense you know like the farm and um but I mean we you know everything was good you know I mean we we had our ups and downs I mean you know coming to a marriage three kids and you know and all that and but you know and then my father you know you knew my dad M and you know he was a hard ass you know I know I heard that uh the time and explain to you you know we've been working on this for quite a while basically the better part of a year um and we know that your childhood probably wasn't all that easy well it was a tough I mean we you know we grew up the old school all of all of my brothers did you know I mean it was really we knew how it was in this day and age people get arrested for the way we were treated when we were growing up yeah and then so it's you know I mean it's just one of those things that you know it's the old school you know you don't smack a kid like you you did back then and um but uh no and Dad is he got older he had cancer and he's you know wouldn't give up anything you know as far as he had we raised the Belgian draft horses and mom was like gez you need to tell him to get rid of some and because we had like 40 to 54 you know he's 70 years old what the hell you you know and I took care of him you know and it's so the wife just didn't like that cuz that's time away from home and but anyways make a long story very short so we bought the farm and cuz she thought it was something I wanted you know which it was and uh but I mean it's just the idea that you know everything went good and she just got tired of the duck business and she had she's an alcoholic you know and she's there's been many issues with that I mean one night I went down 96 a on the hood of her car in front of my son and my granddaughters and I know that was like holy [ __ ] you know and it's like but I would do anything to help her with it you know it's I understand her sister died of it her brother committed suicide so she had a tough life too Carlson is trying to discredit his wife a tactic the detectives have seen many times before there is nothing to corroborate his claims that she is an alcoholic and everything she has told the police has aligned with the evidence and you know so like I say I mean we've been trying to get things I thought weak but I guess she was setting me up for the kill do you think telling Cindy that that you push the truck on Levi was going to somehow well I just fix your relationship no well that's I knew right from the beginning cuz I talked to my daughter and my daughter's like she is setting you up and I says I know but then why let her and I said there cuz I wanted to see and really mean this I wanted to see how what she was going to do because she acted sincere as all hell she goes I need to get by and I mean you can read the texts on my phone you've already read them Carl you know and I'm like Carl we've read every text message we know every email you know every conversation you had with anybody for the past year okay we know we put this in context it's not just the the one thing we know the way you talked before you told Cy stuff we know the way you talked afterwards Tom and I asked we we we've basically kind of made study you Carl kind of actually it's actually I'm kind of glad to finally meet you you know and it's like but it's like but understand that that when we look at the at the to the whole picture it's obvious to us that it happened yeah and that's a thing it's it's it's the thing it's not just your words we listen to your words we knew what happened beforehand we go out and dig scientifically with medical evidence and everything before you even said it it was a deal at this point it is indisputable the damage is done we believe me we don't always give the opportunity to come in and sit and talk to somebody that's not the this this is this could be a done deal we don't have to talk to you but we were hoping you would come in here and be honest and tell us what we what we've heard already well is like you had a heart but now that you're tell I do have a heart okay and but I'm sitting here thinking you know all well and all along she's like you know and I kept asking her I you know and asking my daughter it's like you know and asking my friends it's like something's wrong she's setting me up she's just setting me up I mean how else can you describe it you know and I'm like all right I'm going to and I that's not Happ we can't we're adults we're professionals and you're what you're doing now is you're trying to backtrack no and what it is this is what at some point there's a very good chance that other people are going to be looking at this whole scenario in all the evidence okay and it's undeniable and what you're doing now is what you're you're taking what was in your opinion and and I agree made a hard decision and you're making it look like it's not what it is and you're painting your everybody understands when someone makes a mistake because there's not a human that's not flawed I've made mistakes he's made mistakes you've made mistakes and everybody understands it because everybody makes mistakes people do not understand or what we have a real hard time understanding is when somebody who makes a mistake tries to cover up for that mistake tells a you are you are you are that's the thing you can't you can't come in here and having already confessed and it's not just it's not just your own words we have corroborated that with physical evidence so it's when you're when you're telling us I didn't do it it's like you telling us that there's not a 500 PB gorilla here if there was a 500 lb gorilla sitting right here it would be the same thing as you saying he's not here you know you weren't there well tell us what I I spoiled my son okay Carlson's remaining children said that the relationships between Carlson and his three children had been distant since the death of their mother and Carlson and Levi did not particularly get along Levi terribly I believe that she hated the fact I mean he made life hard but my son now that's 17 he has front a Lo I don't know if you know what that he he he goes to a school in Rochester um because ronos could not teach him if you wrote the homework assignment on the chalkboard he could not copy it down no seriously he could this is Al yeah Al he could not copy it down right just there's no way in help he could not copy it and with my son Levi I mean homework would last 5 hours 4 hours 3 hours 6 hours and as a parent you're just how hard is it to copy from point A to point B and he was frustrated and we did you know everything that the school said everything the school said to do we did no problem couldn't get him to do anything so he ended up quitting and all that Alex we decided to take a different route school started telling us what to do we said you know what no so Cindy went out she got uh hired a private um evaluator up Rochester we evaluated him found out after a while he has frontal Lo which they say most intelligent people have it like presidents congressmen you know people who are very intelligent some of them can't even write their own name you know they can't write their name they they have machines where he goes to school that the person speaks into and it writes everything on a paper the kids because they can't do it and what they do up there is they teach the kids how to learn with the disability they have there's a maximum of eight kids per class 12 kids per grade and they only take them through 4 through 12 so it's like it's been a difficult road to haai Major some well it is but it's been a relief because you know Alex is getting frustrated we knew he's going to quit school and he gets old enough he's not going to tell I just relate to Levi I understand but Levi and him were the same you know and I seen Levi go through the [ __ ] The Rock Bottom I mean going to you know getting a divorce and being absolutely how was his how was his life I mean at Levi after his well he he he just he wouldn't open up to people you know mean he suffering was he miserable I mean I don't miserable but he was just more just in a way it's almost like he just wanted somebody to to take him under his wing and you know and you know and we tried and it you know you're talking to a 17 18 19 year old what come on you know who are we did you really try you did oh yeah we all did I mean and and he moved in with my sisters in-laws and he moved in with this person and that person and then he was moving in with kids his own age which were kids that quit school you know it was just a mess and uh so we um ended up finally he he got married and we were like oh God she's going to end up pregnant sure as [ __ ] she ended up pregnant how old was he when he got married I think like 18 maybe I think 18 but I think she was pregnant before and she quit 3 months to go before graduation or senior what do you think when all this is at oh what do you do we're all like you know we got to wait till he crashes you know because there's nothing I mean he would still come out to the house and he would help me you know and you know and I would always give him money I just felt did you have a lot of money to give no no I mean well I was I know you've had your UPS down yeah but I was working at guardian and I was shoo horses at the time I mean I was making good money you know I mean I mean we've never been poor we've always had nice Vehicles we've always had you know we've always I've always had the draft horses and and the farm I mean so it's you know you do anybody give you any of that stuff no anybody just hand it over to you oh hell no you know you work I mean I worked multiple jobs and stuff like that and I mean I did I worked my ass off on the farm you know and um so it's like you know I mean I just help Levi cuz I knew he was in a rut you know and then when he got divorced and then he was like going from one girl to the next girl just I think more for a place to live you know and then one day he called me and said Dad she kicks me out I have no money I have nowhere to go and it's like he hit the bottom of the barrel finally Levi was managing to support himself and didn't have any expectations of Carlson how old is he at that point he was probably 20 and uh it's like finally he hit the bottom of the barrel you know and so he come home and I tried getting them into Guardian where I worked for quite a few years and they're like no way no way he's he's too many jobs there's like he had like 13 jobs in like 15 months and they're like you know we we're not going to and I had been there even before day one before the plan opened I mean I got I was one of the first original 52 they sent us out to other states to train we come back and I train the people that they hired and uh so I had a good rapport with the people there and uh it's like and you still couldn't get them hired and I couldn't what was it that they didn't like about Job hopping just he had a GED went out and got his GED because I told him I saids you can't you can't do anything without a GED you know you've got to get it did you have and get it no he did that on his own and um so then finally he got his GED and finally I went back to Guardian and says look I says I will put my reputation on the line cuz I told him I says you know at first I'm like I'm not telling you guys how he's going to be I says you know my son wants to get in can you talk to him and and they're like you know and then finally I went in I said look I think the kid is really changed and he's really willing to stick it up you put your reputation on line on the line the last time and they hired him and he did a 180 complete 180 in his life um they loved him one day on one of the machines he was running one of the big robots that picks up the glass um he uh found a defect in the glass and it saved him about $2 million that's Fant must you must have been proud of oh I was like you know any father would be like you know holy [ __ ] you know and we're working I my shift I work straight days Days in afternoons just two shifts no weekends no holidays and he worked rotating so I'd see him a lot you know and yeah it makes you feel good that you know jce the kids turned around you know he was seeing his kids more he was paying child support he was doing the whole nine yard you know I mean it was what a father dreams of you know that so what happened and um well then after then he died you know but I mean he he uh got a you know the plant manager got a come out and talk to him you know and told him you know what a great job he did I mean it really came on talk to who Levi and you know oh so you're telling me that things that he what he did things were going good so that would support your thought that you that you now you're taking back what you said to your wife I'm just want to make sure I no things were going great for him he was living with us I mean he was um everything was going great for him you know I mean the work was going good so then he got so then then he let's let's make sure that we know that the three of us are starting this is what we are we know that that car fell on your son because of you that's what we know okay so you say anything else that's a fact that's a that's a fact so I I know that you truly care about your son and I know you worried about you pardon me what's that I said I know you truly care about your son yes I know that right so it kind of mitigates that for me when you you tell these tales that you didn't have any involvement because we know that you did and the fact of the matter is it's done the investigation is done this is your opportunity like the lieutenant said we asked his boss the sheriff and the ship let us please talk to him let us talk to him because I think what you're going to see is he had reasons to do this that he's not a monster because you know what a lot of people think you know what a lot of people think that they're involved in this they think that you took that insurance policy out and that you did this for the money I don't believe that no no that's what they think about it though think about why do people think I know oh believe me I why do people I went through I went through the same thing when my wife died when did your wife 1990 okay so with with Levi a lot of people think you did it for money I don't believe that I it what okay your family thinks that too oh yeah oh my my I I had my a younger brother like say it and it's like we here's the thing here's the thing what your younger brother and your families don't know and what no I'm assuming you didn't tell anybody until told Cindy is we can prove it we can prove it you don't have to try to hide it anymore you you what I think is what you're trying to do now is save your family from what you think is going to hurt them if you get wrapped up in this I'm thinking that that's why you're telling these fibs because I I the person that I've studied for a year with Lieutenant here this is totally out of character for you to come in here and tell I'm shocked and it honestly makes me wonder if you did do this for the money no no because it looks that way you come in here and I'm thinking we're like this guy is going to do the right thing he's going to come in here he's going to tell the truth he's going to tell us how he made a decision he may regret it he you know we thought you were going to be honest with us like you were with Cindy but when you come here and start telling when you come here and start telling lies you know what I I I right in the back of my head it's sneaking up as holy [ __ ] he did do it for the money no I didn't because you took out that policy he took out the policy who paid the principal I paid the first one I because I don't even want to get into that because that that's all factual and what that looks like and I don't even want to say it because I don't believe it but that you know what that is you know what people who are have a lot more experience than I do say when they look at that and it's a huge pie in something like this motive that's what they say I don't believe it I'm a father I think I know we can prove right now that it was you that forced that car over to me you know I think you did it out of a Father's Love that's what I choose to believe and I think I can substantiate that other people are going to say they look at they have told me this we have had down out arguments where people say to me you're an idiot you're crazy he took out this freaking policy on his son he brought his son down there he paid the principal he did this he took the money he spent the money those kids got no money that's what they look at me and say and I said well you know what I can relate to this guy because I have kids and there's no way a man can do it for the money no there's no way when you come in here and lie I got think well there's no way there's no way sorry well then you have to be honest with us and I am you didn't do it for the money I did not do it for the money and I did not do it well that's I knew that was coming but here's the thing well you can say that and I know when you say it you're saying I hope they believe it and I would try to believe it well that's all you can say I can't I can't that's all you can say because you're hoping that that sticks but here's the thing if we did not have evidence to the contrary I would say you know what I kind of believe the guy but the fact is we can prove it it's already been proven to me that you did it by things we cannot discuss and then when you when you confess to your wife that's you on the that's you on the recording right well I guess if you take me I guess I don't know so we're not disputing that that's your voice on there right I guess if that's you know I don't know conversation with your wife andig Coulson wants to deny that the conversation occurred but even he isn't foolish enough to do so when he knows they have the recording try as he might all of his lies can't explain away that rare instance of honesty yeah by the death of your son and how you push the car over right yeah we okay we we've had we recorded you know like I let's just stop right there we know that that's that's what it is I was just hoping you weren't going to try to take that no no no we we met many times and talked about things so here it is and that's why like I said we can if if we couldn't prove it if it had not been proved to me I would be standing by your side and I still want to be here to try to help Salvage we the two guys that don't think he did it for the money we two guys I did but here it is we're not going to agree on this I'm telling you because no here's the thing we know and you you you solidify it I thought my mind on you changed when you actually opened up and told your wife when you came I said I told you guys that's why and your words came right out there and said we can prove that you KN is over when you actually confessed to it how can you prove I knocked it over we can't discuss that we can't discuss that but there's many ways we wouldn't be here Carl if if we did weren't able to you know I I'm sorry it's it's what I don't agree with you you're smiling no I don't agree with you what part that I pushed it over I don't agree with that you guys don't understand that it's like when I'm talking to my daughter who's a cop and like I've told everybody I'm not smart enough to outwit cops okay I'm not you know and it's like to sit there and it's like she's setting you up and I talked to other people that are friends with us and I'm like does this make sense well see here I don't think you're the kind of guy that planned anything I think you you had an opportunity to try to help your family and you sacrifice what is probably the most difficult thing in the world to do I don't agree with that what's interesting your phrasing you don't agree with it you don't want to agree with it I don't agree with it I don't I don't acknowledge it it's not true have acknowledge Carl I think deep down you knew this day was going to come when I go look at all your we look at all your Communications and all your text messages and emails and and conversations over the over the months that we worked on this I think you knew I think part of you knew deep down that this day was going to come no because I never I I didn't have anything to do with it I really did not there's there's no way I think there's no way I could kill a son there's no way I don't care how you say it for whether it was for oh it's for all that he's done to us I stuck up for him and did everything what did you mean when you told Cindy that that one of the reasons that that you took the opportunity to do it was because he was a burden what did you mean by that I don't know you'll find out my memory is not the greatest because of the medicin Amon so it's things don't you know I've been on a lot of drugs since 20 1 20 you bring up a good a good point here and I don't necessarily I mean I don't mean to interrupt you I'm sorry no but you'll but realistically and me this is no lie you'll find out that sometimes my brain doesn't well you brought up something that we contested for a while when you and I don't want to you said you were on methodone is that true or were you lying to S oh it's true look at my metal records I've been I know you've been depressed and things like that no they they gave well I've been on um anti-depressants for I don't know how many years I don't know how many years I mean really I mean it's and a lot of it is due to the medicine I'm taking right they cause it I'm assuming right that they they cause it and the methadone is the worst thing you can be on make further your depression oh no it's they're trying to get rid of it because number one it stops your heart they found out it could be a healthy athlete and it can stop your heart but between the methadone between the fentanyl between the Badin between Carlson falls back on a faulty memory and blames his medication for any inconsistencies that might be in his story without any sort of history with such issues the detectives are unlikely to believe that this isn't just an excuse to avoid answering the questions that point most strongly at his guilt all the other crap I take um for a while there and all and all my kids will vouch for this and even Katie who's a cop um I could be sitting two feet from you and you're not there you're not there you are not there what do you mean by that you're not there to me recognize if someone's there or oh hell no I'm looking through you you're not there I mean it was Pink Elephants flying what what time frame was this or is it current no not now no I I got a new pain uh specialist over in uh Clifton Springs Dr holder and uh I had to sign a contract with him that I can only take medicine that he subscribes to me um I had surgery the doctor writes prescription for Vicadin I'm already taking vicadin from him I can't if i say go on and oh so they don't want you to mix by accident or like that well by my contract I cannot sign that prescription and or turn it in and get it because Dr holder if they find out I'm out of the program he he releases me as his patient and now I have no pain pels you can't have that not the pain you're in no I mean it's I'm I'm a train rack you know and so from 2000 I'm going to say from 2000 6 to 200 I'm going I'm just I'm not perfect here either 2009 2010 um you would not have rod in a car with me you would not have because the feeling when you were driving with the lieutenant here he was he was all over the road there well no I mean oh hell no did you didn't feel the you you don't like riding with me either no it it was more if you're the passenger you're driving I got the wheel what were you having hallucinations or what was going on oh yeah it's it's you know like you always see in the was it the 60s and 70s the LSD trips and all that you know the the the 3D [ __ ] going by I mean there's times that I would start talking in the living room well you mentioned that the cind and yeah didn't you say you were like in the ey it was a hurricane you were in the eye and it's dead come did it make you do things you didn't want to do I mean because that's understandable too like I I didn't think that was the case I knew you alluded to that I didn't think you were in that bad of a state but I don't know I've not talk to my daughter talk to my daughter um I was popping 30 35 like it in the day on top of the M again I'm going I did it I did it because um it took the pain away but did that again when I'm talking right now I'm talking that I know what happened in there that it was you pushed that car on your son so when I'm asking you know I heard you allude on that recording when you were talking to Cindy when you were opening up your heart and being honest you probably a lot like most police officers and we don't want to ever express any any vulnerability or any ability not to take care of our families or the people around us and as you're telling Cindy what we know to be the truth you mentioned for just a blip how you were like the methodone and you was like a hurricane and you're talking about that in the same kind the same sentence like when she's asking you to describe what happened with Levi I didn't it had not occurred to me but is it that the medicine you didn't know what you were doing until afterwards I mean I don't know with the medicine you don't know so is that we know we know you don't you don't with the medicine you don't know [ __ ] so you you could be I mean if I walked I had to have help what I'm saying to you right now what I'm wondering is we know that you you caus that CH of land on your son we know that from your words and from other things I never thought for a second until now that it could be a possibility that you were so under the influence of medicine that that influenced it would that be too difficult for you even to discuss that you were so out of control all I know is that all I know is that in the with the medicine I'm on back then I mean up until Dr holder took me um why I'm alive I don't know I I shouldn't be alive because because the drugs are is that what happened no I I don't is that we know we know the ACT occurred we don't know what's going on in your head and that's what today's about I don't know what was going on in my head back [Music] then let me just please go ahead if you think I'm going to get that for you I can't do it no can't do it you're on your own no it's just arm just but is that back then I don't know what I was doing did it affect you on that day and and cause you to do that I don't know did it cause you to push the phone the phone fre B in my head did that have an influence I I did not have anything to do with this death I here's the thing I mean you guys can prove whatever you want right but I'm saying all I know is that back then and Cindy will vouch Alex will vouch anybody that knew me will vouch that I was the biggest car car you did we know that you did cause that car to fall in your son period I know it Lieutenant knows it and you know it you know it you cannot look at us and tell us a lie it is not who you are you have caused this to happen you put yourself in this situation and if you want to choose to be a person that we didn't expect you to be if you want to choose to be a coward and not own up to your own your own you know what if that's what you choose to do then maybe that's maybe that's who you are no it's not who I am well you you were you were a full man when you were talking to your wife you made this decision you know let's look at each other and just be honest let's be honest right now there is so much there is so much [ __ ] I threw at her that day that not funny no the [ __ ] is not you can't you're not the man we thought you were and you know what if you you you can't do it can you you caused that to happen you can't live with your I did not cause it to I I feel I caused it how do you mean by that because it was my truck M explain I had I had him do my job you know I feel wouldn't you feel guilty if you asked your kid to help you and something like that happens wouldn't you wouldn't you feel guilty yes I feel guilty every day of my life and I told her that you know there's not day a day that goes by that I don't sit there and think I really wish it was me there and it's not because of anything I've physically done it's because of the emotional you did you did and if you know if you want to lie about it because you're trying to save yourself well God bless you I hope God forgives you because what you're doing right now you had a chance coming into this interview to be to be to be a good person and try to salvage your soul and try to help yourself out and try to keep some respect and dignity for your family you know what you chose to do you've confessed to this there's evidence to prove that you did this and you keep talking about your family and your daughters you think they're going to believe they're going to believe story now why would I sit there and tell my daughter a cop and everybody else that I know that everything that all of a sudden now Cindy and I are talking about it's like you're trying to cover your ass no I'm not and you know what we're not the only two people that are going to see it that way well then let the world see it that you know what the world's going to see truly I what they're seeing you know what you know your own family from when youah us doesn't believe you well there's a few because well because but there's a few going on because of property issues because of property because of property issues you think you killed your son so here's the thing you know what you want to make your bed and cover it with lies and not stand up for what you did that's fine but you know what you're telling a story so unbelievable it only hurts you help you you I'm certain you will be sorry it someday here's the thing what can hurt you it's very difficult to do it apparently goes against your judgment but what will help you is to stand up and say and tell the truth and tell the truth that's what's going to help you because it's going to help you it's going to help you in your heart and people will they're going to have a difficult let's be honest they're going have a difficult time that you did what you did but they're going to at least have some respect for you and and listen to why you did it I think the thing of the key is that being under the influence of the know that's the case then true all I know is I didn't push it over because I love Levi more than anything I don't doubt that and it was very hard for Cindy it wouldn't be the first time that greed outweighed love and Carlson wasn't known for his affectionate nature with his children in the first place Levi like his sisters had always suspected that Carlson had killed their mother and on some level Carlson may have recognized that suspicion this would have made killing Levi an Easy Choice Cindy wanted me to basically take him and throw him under the bus and just let him go which I did but I would always try to see where he's at find him you know I mean always try to also know where my son is you know cuz I felt I felt so bad you know I felt so bad for him struggling in life you know I mean I did I really did because you could him and I would talk he sometimes he would come over and he wouldn't go in the house you know because him and her just didn't hitch and it's like but he would come talk to me you know and he knew I would give him if I had 10 bucks 20 bucks or 50 bucks you know did you give him money to come over that day yeah I gave him money you know to come over that day well when he was there what did he get what you give the money for for helping on the truck okay so he came over that day to help you in the truck and he was paid for that yeah okay yeah and um but it's also just to help him survive because at the time you know he didn't have a job you know I mean I used to get up at 3: in the morning and take him and his wife to their jobs over in other side of can Anda because his car broke down that's that's how much I love my kid my wife thought I was freaking nuts Carol as much no matter anything else I do not doubt that you love your son and don't let me ever confuse that I I do for a second think you don't love your children you know and and it's like the wife's like geez you're spending gas money and I would have to go to work so it's like I'm getting up three hours earlier cuz I I worked up until I it's it's been 3 years 3 years ago two years two and a half years ago I worked up till and guardian we had the because you're not supposed to be on drugs you know because if you do plan prescribe medication oh no well if it was prescribed antibiotics fine but not narcotics I mean I've been on narcotics since 2001 2002 and um and even the guys at work will tell you there was times that they pull me off the Fork trucks cuz I loaded the tractor trailers and it was like go sit down because they catch me zoning out I'd be sitting in the middle of an aisle with 10 tons of glass in front of me on the forks and I'd be looking right through it you know and it was the only way to deal with the pain well I don't doubt you know and and it was it it was something that you know I mean one surgery they opened me up the belly and they turned me over the same day and they put a bed on my they opened me up pulled my guts out put a cage in Cut half my back out put me back together closed it up put a bed on my belly flipped me over like a grilled cheese sandwich laid me up the back six days I laid on my freaking back with I understand your medical records are fat you know and it's like hey you know and did I Mis abuse the drugs probably you know I mean the the method don't know because you well there was times I ran out early if it was you know bad at night but I don't sleep more than two hours at a time because I can't get up well that will affect you also and even now like you know when Cindy called me I was sleeping I don't sleep at nights I can't and and even in my paperwork no standing more than an hour no sitting more than an hour and if I sleep more than 2 hours at a time I I have to roll out of bed you know it's just the way I am I understand you so it's but I mean I mean up till I got Dr hter I was since the detectives will not believe that he wasn't responsible for Levi's death Carlson is going to use his medication as a fallback plan it was Pink Elephants flying man and when did you get Dr holder I think it's been two years so it was it after revis's death it was oh yeah it was ways after Levi's death but I mean for a while there I mean for years I mean to include the time of Levi's death a mess on medicine oh I was beyond a mess cuz I would sit there in the living room and one story they told me is uh something about home or no I was telling them something about home and they're like home what and I'm like you know home and my and Katie was there and Levi or Alex and Cindy and and they're looking at me like you know I guess this is their story and I'm like home plate you know in baseball now what the hell does that have to do with I mean out of the blue you know and my wife for a long time wouldn't let Alex ride with me wouldn't let my granddaughters ride with me you were a mess on those drugs and even when we divorced she called over to Cassie which was Levi's ex-wife and said don't let the girls go with Carl and I was pissed about because I was getting better you know a lot better and it was just this last January you know but I mean we would take rides down to North Carolina to her brothers or to my daughters in uh New York and you know most time the passenger falls asleep she was you know I was too stubborn to say I couldn't drive you know and she was like how would you rate that time of your life compared to the rest of your life as far as how bad was it on a scale of 1 to 10 what do you what do you mean that time of your life like you look back and say that was a my favorite time of my life that period of time oh no I don't remember a lot of it I don't remember was it a low point in your life well it was low because the pain things I've always I love doing I couldn't do anymore no I think we should talk about I think we should talk about the insurance I think we're at that point we we have to address that how much money was was Levi making um with over I mean with overtime and stuff he was probably bringing home five 600 a week plus all plus you get your bonus weeks plus you get all your bonuses two grand a month oh yeah plus all the bonuses you get so how much you think you would make a difficult year God I know I'm I'm guessing I'm just shooting a number 40 40 something 40 to 45,000 whose idea and be careful here whose idea was it for him to be in his was his idea to yes because guard no because Guardian has this thing where they um have like uh retirement people come in and all that stuff and wanted to do something did you choose to go with the company from car did anybody choose Lei you choose who' you go with um um can't remember his name right now who drove there Levi did okay whose car his car his truck he had a black Ford pickup so that so these these these documents that say that it was your idea and everybody else that says it was your idea to get leave it wasn't my idea okay so he chose to how much was the the principal how much is the first payment what do you mean the first payment to get the insurance into effect who paid that I paid that and I told him because well he didn't have any money on him at the time there but uh I pay I told him I'd pay the first one then the rest is up to you where' you get the money to do that my checking account okay you got it from your check account did you do the bills at that point in your life or is it fair to say that Cindy was take well Cindy did the bell she always did the Bell did Cindy know that you no and were you the beneficiary of this policy yes okay and what was the policy for what was the amount 300,000 okay and what was there any writers what do you meaners were there any Riders was there anything in addition that would subsidize that jur policy it would make it Greater event in certain circumstances occurred well he had uh there was um which I Didn't Know M he had uh there was accidental death which we didn't even talk about that I know but were he signed that yeah I was in the room and he signed that did you sign it as well because I don't know if I don't know okay I don't think I don't think so the policy be it was 700 but he had $700,000 right and he had um and who got that money I did okay and what were your plans with that money what did you tell part oh Levi wanted part of it goes to the girls he wanted you did he want you to have it I had total control because he did not want thing cuz who spent that money my wife and I okay did did Levi's children spend that money no is that who was intended for Levi intended that the money be used for his daughter's care his mistake was allowing his father to have any control over the finances well yeah well we SP the mother of his children right not for her she to this day do she know that there was a policy he did not want has her has his children benefited from that money no and it wasn't supposed to be for now it was supposed to be for later money exists now part of it does how much I don't know they ask my wife okay so you spent the money we both her and I spent money okay but she when did she come to know that there was a policy right after he died okay okay and but the one thing was is that I never knew the policy really shouldn't have been any good because Levi didn't do his physical you have to do the physical do you know when the physical was sceduled for I had a lady cuz Levi didn't have a phone at the time I had a lady call me and say because I was a back up on the phone list and said that you need to get a hold of Levi for him to call us to make an appointment for for his physical just like on my life insurance that I had you know they come out do your blood test and a weight and just a random little health check let me ask you this did anybody aside from you and Levi and the insurance agent know that Levi was insured I think some of his friends who um uh um Clayman um Steve Clayman was it was a roommate I think a lot of his friends knew is and discussed being insured to them I I think he did one time cuz it looks this whole this whole scenario is horrible I know I know I never knew there was an accidental death I didn't know that so you collected in reality how much money did you collect I got 700 okay $700,000 and then we put how much did his family get who's Levi's family not you 50 they got well she got nothing and it wasn't supposed to go to her that was his fear he did not want did he insure himself so that you would benefit was his plan for you to have 3/4 of million dollar it would no it was for me it was for us he wanted and for me to take care of his girls when they got to college have you done that Carlson tries to avoid giving a straight answer the money was intended for his grandchildren but Carlson had already spent a considerable amount on himself they're not in college AG have do you have the means to do that well have that money now or did you spend that we've spent oh no hold on now we've spent it but we've also spent it because she Cindy's got some she should have 45,000 or so okay um I had some paid some bills with it because when we because the stupid mistake I made is that that money if I kept it in my name would have been strictly mine we met with an investor to say okay this is what we got this is what we want to do for the girls the whole nine yards why didn't you tell Cindy that you were involved in this insurance thing she would have a fit about anything if I spend a dime on him right and that's just the way it was you know and so it's uh so we met with a guy and we were camping out in Junior's campgrounds and I don't know what all we talked about but that you know Levi the one thing Levi did not want is for Cassie excuse me to have anything to do with any money I mean he just hated her with a freaking passion did you use any of that money to pay for his funeral yes oh yes okay oh oh yeah that where did the guardian money go was he insured the guardian yeah was that that was used to pay the funeral no I don't think no I I don't know I I I know I paid for it I'm not sure let's go through let's go through it right now no could wait a minute it could before his death before his death you and him go down and he becomes insured right you're the beneficiary right for what totals will be $700,000 yeah which I only thought was 300 because I didn't know there was a exent yeah why would he do that I don't know and then he died in an accident you know I I don't know yeah strange well I know what you're getting at not I'm not being I'm being straight up with you I and it's like I never knew there was plus he didn't get his physical you know cuz I didn't once once he passed away um it was a while later and the insurance guy he came to the funeral he seen in the paper came talked to me and he was like if I'm not mistaken we we brought up that you know Levi didn't get his physical cuz they don't have to honor it because they didn't know if he whatever you know if he if he was healthy or not how long do you think it had passed from the time that that that you may or may have signed but when you went with Levi to get this policy that included an accidental death rider that was for $700,000 how much time it laps between then and the time that he died in an accident on your land I don't under your I don't know was it your vehicle that fell on him I'm I'm trying to think if we ever switch it over cuz all I I never drove it on the road did this did this happen while you were in the barn did what happen did the car fall did you witness it falling no what about the radio KL the radio me about the radio the radio was on when we got home does did Levi listen to country music at times it wasn't you're the only person you're the only person ever say that right okay so that's not true I mean what he didn't listen everybody else rare it was rare I mean but it had to be the newer country but it was rare he normally but you got to look at the radio it was older than beesus and it it was came out on its own well the dial was like I think I still got it in the garage it's got did you turn that radio on that day no no no you certain I you know that radio is right now uh it's in the garage I think I think I don't know because it's got a coat hanger on it and but the dials it they you get whatever you it does this doesn't look good for you right I know I you you know you guys can think what you want I don't we don't think it's beyond thing it's beyond thing it's a matter of fact I don't know what to tell you I you know you know what I wish you would tell me and Hest we want nothing more is the truth and I know you guys want me to just spill my gut saying Oh I pushed it over I killed them and I I can't say that because I didn't although you have said that I played the game with her what's that game I wanted know I the game that I didn't understand how did this game work out you say it was a game tell me what's what's the game a game employ impes to me that there's some outcome and that you're doing something to achieve an outcome what is that game what I didn't CU she was hoping that you would tell her she in her heart she wanted I think so but it's just that's what mother well no she wasn't his mother it wasn't a game it wasn't a game cuz it's ridiculous you know why it wasn't a game because what game includes you saying you pushed the car on your son well what game is like I wanted to see how far and and the same you know what game she was playing I want the truth can I be with this man if he KN the car that's the game and this is what I asked what game were you playing and what what about the part we were saying is this a trap what about that part because I knew it was you know what they call that yeah consciousness of guilt well you can call it what you want but it's like what and like I asked her many times and it's like what woman if I came clean and said I did this and I did this and I did this and I told her everything I said at the restaurants it's like would you want to lay next to somebody who in fact that's exactly what you said you answer that question yeah but I said would you close your eyes at night so you were trying to weigh her to see if she's a good woman no it was to see where this is going because at that point where could it be going oh I I didn't know I really didn't know but it's like what what woman would listen to somebody say yep I took the life of my son and if you say that and come clean I'm going to be with you the rest of my life yeah it sounds silly that you fell for it now doesn't it no I didn't fall for it cuz it's like okay we're going to see how far this goes and I kept telling Katie I kept telling my neighb you Katie we talked about it how many times before it happened before you before you confess to Cindy how many times did you tell Katie that you were going to do that you never did no I talked to Katie once after after we talked to it one time how many times between the first time you met Cindy and the second time you met Cindy when you ultimately confess those two times how many times not once right we only talked to kti I only tell so not once did you tell hey I'm going to play this game no now have you never told anybody you were playing a game oh my neighbors I did okay which Neighbors The Butcher well that's Don Donna Whitmore I talked to and what neighbor so we Amy when did you tell her you going to play G oh there's been a couple times that we've talked because she's been um and you told her I'm going to I'm going to I said I there I sit there and I told her I says I'm going to see how far I can push this okay what's her full name Amy lap she lives it it's my old address 865 is you cross 96a on your Farm Road it's the first house on the left when did you tell her that Carlson's friend did not verify his story when asked by the police we've been off and on talking for cuz the first time Cindy mentioned something to me I talked to her I said does this sound right to you and who was Amy LA to just a friend they bought our old house her and her husband you know they did you talk to her husband about this no because Amy Amy um she picked me up she took me to the hospital because I had Cindy I said look when I had my surgery um and I asked C say do you think you could take me down for my surgery and then pick me up when it's done she goes no I can't and I'm like you know what the hell is so did you tell Amy LA's husband that you were playing a game with de no because I don't see him much because does he know that you were that she Amy took you to the oh yes yeah yeah oh you think is there possibility Amy told her husband that you were playing a game with your wife I would say probably yes yeah easily because they you know and um and actually her and I talked a couple times about it and then she walks up and down the road for exercise and she stopped a couple times we've talked and then one time and you guys probably read it on the police report I got my truck taken cuz I had an overlaps back in July Insurance overlaps yeah and it was up in Williams and I had actually went to Dealer Direct in Syracuse and sold the truck and then I was headed to Williamson there was a truck that I wanted to get it was an older truck but I just uh wanted to get it and uh probably 200 yards in front of the place I was going I get pulled over I get what do they call it pinged now your plate yeah I don't know I think they call it getting pinged okay and insurance over that uh City guy pulls me over and it's like [ __ ] it's like what's he pulling me over for and uh he comes up tells me Insurance overlap and I'm like okay well they have to take the truck take the plates off cut the plates into and I'm like so here I am in Williamson with no vehicle M and I live where I live it's like how do you go from point A to point B and I knew Cindy had a doctor's appointment so I went up to the I called her and she goes well I'm just going in I'll call you when I get out and I told her she goes well I have an appointment with Alex to see his doctor so she couldn't help me out so I fig well might as well start walking and I'll try calling so I called uh Amy L she wasn't home so I had to wait till like 4:00 or 4:30 finally get a hold of her and her and her husband came up I mean I walked from Williamson the west side of Williamson probably six miles before they finally it was just dark and they picked me up and on the way back I think we had mentioned you i' had mentioned something about this you know with Cindy that you know wanted to know this and I mean Amy was just like it made no sense you know and I says look I says I and I told her I says I'm going to play this and see where I go because it's not making sense it's not making sense and I says what woman would have you admit to doing something like that and lay next to you at night I said I certainly H wouldn't I says if you're going to do it once you're going to do it twice I says what would you you know so I knew I knew right from the beginning it was like I want to see where this is going because I didn't know if it was a divorce matter Carlson's wife did not want anything from him out of the divorce she was concerned for her life and also believed that he would continue to ruin their finances she's trying to get more because we're we're a lot of the the money went Cindy took she bought a house over in Newark with that money what money the money that for Levi so the money you got at Levi yeah with di yeah I didn't know she bought the house okay did you give her that money I didn't give it to her okay how'd she get it she took it out of the account did she did she know that the insurance policy was going to be in effect she didn't know about that right C didn't know that but this is years after the years after this is years after this was just this past tell us about that day the day that Levi died tell us what happened as best you can remember from the beginning of that day until the end I guess doing stuff around the farm whatever we had a funeral to go to um Cindy and I went to it Levi was there came in in his truck parked it um he was working on it I went in well we were both working on the truck I went in took a shower got cleaned up and uh went out what was he doing on the truck working underneath it okay but what was you what was you br the transmission lines were leaking and the brakes to the front were leaking is an old 19 70 Truck Yeah well it was it used to be his pickup but the Box you had to have straps holding the box together because there's no tailgate to it I mean so we and it had a plow hookup so we had no Farm plow I put on so I used it to plow the driveway but the power steering line I mean you put a CT in two courts runs out so have you ever Levi helped you in the past oh yeah he's always I mean he's he's once he knew I would always slip him a little he came out a little more often you know and it was always as long as he had and I'd always buy I'd go up to the store if I knew he was coming out he loved Mountain Dew it was like an IV fix for him so i' give him a sixpack amount do and throw him some money whether it was like I say 10 15 20 whatever I could did you give him money that day yeah $50 B so about what time did he show up I going to say it was like a hour a couple hours before we left I'm just I'm just saying to 10 o' so this when he shows up what car was he driving he was driving his Ford pickup okay and did he come into the house or did you meet him in the driveway or what I I don't know I don't know okay I mean he might have came in and talked to Alex I I can't remember every and you worked with him you yeah I worked on him with a truck and then I told him who jacked it up well I had been working on it so it was jacked up already yeah it was partially Jack it was partially jacked up because I'd been working on the back getting the brake lines off the SN because I don't move around very well and I need go you know I I just don't and and um so we uh ended up I I unhooked the back brake line that comes back that goes to both sides and then he um when we got there we were working on the front then I said look I gotta go in and take a shower because I we got to get going so he kept working cuz we were going to take the power steering pump off cuz the power steering pump the metal line that goes into it had snapped off and he had a rubber hose that went over it so and it with the pressure it just keeps blowing it off and um so I went back out you know took a shower we got ready to go I run out give him some money and then uh came back in the house we both got in the car took off and we got home like I'm gonna it was after four let's go back a little bit there so what's the last thing you saw Levi doing he was under the front front of the truck and under the in front of the front axle underneath cuz the lines go across the front axle there he he between the front wheels did you say anything before you left just see you later and thanks or what you know I mean just so you had gone out to the car with your wife and then you went into the barn yep cuz I forgot to give him the money did you give him the money yep $50 BT okay so but did you give it to him while he was under the car I handed it to him yeah and he stuck it in his pocket okay and then what happened in what what else happened and then no and then I left okay cuz he was between he was in front of the bumper was the radio on at that time yep was planing I I don't know I don't know okay but he was between the front axles okay or the front wheels Carlson may have forgotten that the detectives have told him that they have evidence to prove that he pushed the truck on L VI by describing the scene he may be giving away more than he realizes okay and then what happens and then I left you left with s to go to her aunt I believe it was died and then what happen we were over there we went um to the reception which was at like I think a VFW or something like that just a short time then we got back at like it was after 4: and then I went out in the garage and CU we were surprised he was still there and um found him he was now more under the side of the truck you know behind behind the if you went in like from the drive passenger door that way you know what I'm saying kind of you know he was laying instead of if the truck is this way he was he was laying this way MH and um and then I went in yelled banging on the door and um told her to call anals and started jacking it up and she come out just as I was cuz he had we laid a carpet down on the floor and that's what I used to slide him out on cuz he was on it I mean it was I mean I grabbed them by the pants but the everything you know everything slid with it did your wheel barrel analogy the wheelbarrow analogy you told Cindy is that accurate well yeah it could yeah oh yeah you know there there's no doubt about I mean the only Jack that was there was the Big Railroad Jack which is my father's and it was an old one that they used to use way back when I guess what we were told is it lifted up the old railroad irons it's only like that high off the ground and then you got to use a like a six foot bar to make it work and that was underneath the front bumper uh do you need to drink a water or anything yeah do you have one well it's the medicine I I get you one yeah and if you need to use the bathroom fine yeah it's just I are you hungry no you want me to stay here um excuse us one second tired it just tired let's go through I know you tired your neck issues if you need distress or sandwich or like that let us no no I mean let's talk about again so we're clear on the all the whole insurance thing when did that ever first come up when was the first time you heard about when he went to the meeting Guardian had their meetings that they Guardian was doing away with their 401ks you know they're lowering it down to where it was just because when I first started um it was 4% if you put in 4% they match you for which was really good um but over time the economy and everything and they took away the medical retirement from the people that so about when was this um the did I don't know spring summertime whatever and they have like they call in like uh people from retirement agencies investment agencies it's like a a j like it's similar to a job fair but it's like a health job Guardian now has their own they do their own insurance they don't hire autom medical company so the healthier you are the the rates are for them the lower they pay and so they bring in these people to talk to everybody you're paid mandatory to sit in there and listen to the Spiel which you know nobody wants to hear but because it's like well it's going to cost you money but it's retirement it's medical benefits it's Investments and uh they had um one of the investment companies come in I I don't know which one it was and um and they tell you you know if you put two more per in this is what it'll be and and Levi was like he talked to me about it and um and I said well you you know call somebody set up a time and I'll go with you you know and uh cuz he didn't know [ __ ] from you know with that kind I I don't know that much about it you know but it's like he wanted me to go so I went with him it would have been easy for Carlson to bring up the idea in a way that made Levi believe he had thought of it himself and we met talked and believe I said what he wanted to have and well what did he say he wanted to have who did you me for um he's over in Newark I got the number I got his card at home and stuff I know him real well and um he's a really good guy um I can't think of his name how long after the this thing at work did you two go and get the insurance how long after it I I I don't know I really don't I mean it couldn't have been more than a month or so maybe because it was on his mind and for him to have the days off on weekends because he has to work two weekends plus he was volunteering for overtime cuz Hey York time and a half and you know it's a lot of money you know he was living in an apartment down in Geneva you know where the post office is there's that little side street that comes back towards um the ice rink between the post office there's another but it's like a real Narrow Street come down that about halfway he was living in an upstairs apartment that was maybe twice the size of this but for him he was close to work you know and didn't have to spend money on gas CU his truck got about four miles a gallon and um so I went with him and um I mean we the guy laid it out whatever and Levi did not want to do a trust fund okay he he was more afraid that Cassie was going to get money that she could get her hands on it you know and it's like you know and it was his call I mean I sat there and you know sort of threw my two cents in but it was it was all his decision what were your two s just on certain things cuz you know that just what they were talking about what I thought uh you know things that would help him and you know but it was his call on everything he did so and the guy was telling him you know this is what you can do this is what you can do and and um so then I I told I said look is you know cuz he had his figured out his benefits and all that and his his bonuses and all that crap and and I'm like okay well you know I will pay today's but I said you're on your own after this I says cuz your mom yeah yeah and I says your mom's going to kill me for this but I says it's something I'll do for you but you know and when I did finally tell her you know I mean she's not happy cuz it's you know why you know it was man why you know why give it to him and it's like when did I'm sorry when did you tell her what you said when she was upset when you told her she never knew till like a month ago okay you know about that I paid the the premium thing and it's like you know come on it's it's you know I I look at it like you know if you got a kid that's struggling even know he's been a pain in the ass to you he's still your kid you know I mean you know it's it's like when we first when he first moved out we called um the sheriff's office we got him into that um for kids he has to have a officer he reports to what's the program pins and uh we got him on that and they said look if he leaves don't give him nothing don't give him a Tenny cuz sooner or later he's going to learn he it's it's tougher out there than cuz all we were asking is that you know you work on the farm like everybody else you clean up you you know things like that and um and then uh he um he uh all of a sudden my sister-in-law and they're helping him and he we couldn't find him for like 3 days and my sister-in-law told me when I finally found out he was with her she she goes well we didn't want to rat him out he's my kid just tell me where he is I don't care if it's your kid that comes to me it's like you got a choice either you call your dad or your mom or I'm calling them just to let them know where you are because there I mean I drove all over the county trying to find him and here my own sister-in and brother because they didn't want to rat him out it's like come on and everybody knew like that's what happened you know and knew that she had ratted him out or would R him out if she'd said but um but no I mean he you know he wanted it this way and he talked to the guy and they talk back and forth and I'm like okay okay you know it's what it's what it's his it's whatever you want to do and he wanted me to be the trust because he did not want he was I know we had talked a little bit that he didn't want her to be anything with her name on it a trust that she could possibly try to he he just they were too young to get married you know I mean I talk to her now I get the girls now and then and my wife gets the girls now and then I mean I just went over and um we took them out to dinner for their birthdays and stuff like that and I took them over Halloween pumpkins and I take her over meat cuz I butcher my own beef a lot so I took her over a whole big thing of steaks and hamburger I mean I try to like many suspects Carlson plays up anything that could put him in a positive light he portrays himself as a loving but firm father who only had the best interest of his family at heart when it comes to murders that are committed by family members caregiving and violence are not mutually exclusive you know I know she's married she's doing 100% better as a woman she got her [ __ ] together she quit school 3 months before her high school graduation because she was fat she weighed 110 lbs when she was pregnant and I'm like fat people go to school every day you're pregnant three months before you graduate you quit that was pissed it's like come on you know but she got her GED she works out in waterl at over by the county house building at one of those Elderly Homes and you know doing good I and she got remarried and got that's Bigg than all three of us and it's like come on you know but I I try to help her out not well if she need money she knows I would give it to her you know and I've always told her if the girls need anything if they need glasses they need braces they need and that's what things were there for we never took money out of the the accounts for the girls to we separated because her name Cindy's name was on the accounts mistake number one which I didn't learn till after the fact is that how to the ins I just want to backtrack a little bit how was the insurance written up how was it who it was in his name and you're the only beneficiary correct okay they didn't have anything with the girls or anything okay so what happens with it so after his death where does the money go tell me exactly where the money goes I met the guy it actually uh him and the guy I can't think of his name right now him and I would meet for coffee and stuff and just I mean we just got along you know his friends and um so if he calls me one day says hey I got the money um it's in a checking account he gave me a checkbook excuse me so we met and um at Dairy Queen in Geneva he gave me the checkbook told me all the ins and outs what it's about how to do it did anybody know about it at that point Cindy did okay and um so I went down met him got the checkbook come home and um her and I talked about things and then that spring um I paid all of his funeral bills um his mother was buried out in California so what we did is my daughter that was and my daughter and my sister-in-law that lives in California um uh she came out to the funeral and we took the ashes and each one of my kids have got necklaces with they're the kind that you can put ashes in so as gruesome as it sounds and you would never want to do this is I went through his ashes with a freaking funnel in a filter and I filled up their their necklaces and I bald like a baby the whole way through you know I mean cuz you don't get burnt down into ashes okay there's chunks there's bone chunks that don't get burned and excuse me but you don't want to do that and I handle the love t I talk about I do I I've never gotten over you don't we just celebrated four years Tuesday I went to the cemetery spent a while there and took cele what I went to the cemetery to put oh you said you celebrated oh no no my wife was Alex was having a hard time and I was I told her I was going to go to the cemetery and put um was the anniversary of his dad yeah it was I was going to put something on the grave so I bought a pot almost like a Christmas type thing it's got Pine branches and cones and red ribbon because it's like no you ain't going to get flowers ain't going to last so I thought this was more I don't know it's the only really fine but and uh so I took pictures of it and I sent them to her and she you know text back well thanks Alex will really like you know um so anyways whose idea was that Carl to go to the mine I I that's you guys got my text you'll see it it's on there that I uh told her that I was going to go to the cemetery Tuesday she didn't bring it up first no no when she called me back she uh said well if you go to town or she texted me back whatever when um you go to town could you get something and put on it for us you know another p and I just like you know thought you know maybe we can make this just one big thing and you know it just I just thought it would be nice that sort of saying it was from all of us sense so back to with the Y you get you meet him at D did you say Dairy Queen at Dairy Queen okay Dair Queen and he gives you checkbook and what happens from that then it's it's my mind is it yours and Cindy's name just your because but I didn't know this okay I didn't know this till years later that um if I kept it the way it was she could never get a penny if we if we divorced say a month from now from them she could never go after that I didn't know this because I always thought what you make in a marriage is both yours in life insurance that once you take it and put it in an account where her name and your name are on it it's equal property the laws concerning how assets are divided in a divorce very from state to state it isn't surprising that Carlson wasn't aware of those details since his first inclination is to murder a spouse rather than file for divorce you know what I'm saying and it's like I I didn't care I mean her and I are together I mean we you know if you want something you you get it you do whatever you you know we paid bills for the funeral we um um I bought getting back to going to California we had the ashes and I bought another um er and my sister-in-law took it with her and I gave her money to buy a headstone out there and we put a headstone next to his mother so part of the family because that's where his my his grandparents are and that they could have their daughter and my son you know you know what I'm saying they could mourn they have a place to say hey my kids here so we did all that so by springing stuff everything I had to go through because I had to go through being the um thing for the courts I had to go through all yeah all the values and all the can I ask you this was there something with jewelry and your daughter-in-law where she asked for jewelry and you said no we have to sell it for for does that make sense to you no come on I had money for the funeral the funeral never you know what I'm talking about yeah the yeah C Cassie wanted to came talk in the driveway about about the wedding rings and no that was if I'm not mistaken Cass he had I given each one of the kids something from their mother Aaron Levi and ktie my three and she had if I'm not mistaken she had Levi's mother's wedding ring okay and I wanted it back you know and we had a little bit of a tough cuz there's something so she didn't say I want the wedding bands back to give to to my daughters and and you didn't say that um that you had to sell everything to pay for the funeral oh no God no we had more than enough money for seems like no it's it's something that she I I I believe it was and you'll have to ask Cindy this or whoever but she had Levi's mother's wedding rooming I think we're talking about two different things maybe we are yeah because I've got Rings right now at home they're on my window sill of Levi's moms and I showed Katie was home the other Levi's wedding room his wedding room I don't think he ever had one so let's go back to where you have the money you were telling you explained to us how if it was in her name she would never it was just in your name you yeah well for for I never knew it but and this is something I learned later that if I would have say kept the checkbook for myself she's not entitled to any of that money I didn't know that I always thought you know if you get it it's 50/50 well I'm not worried about that you know at that time we were things were good but and then in the spring we we were camping at Junior and Cindy and I talked that we need to figure out we need to get we sort of let the dust settle and we let um we talked to the insurance guy that Levi dealt with and he met us out at our campsite because we rented a campsite for a year out of Junius and um you went out to your campsite yeah out junor pond so is that's where you lived at the time or well no she want we have a big old it's an older fifth wheel camper and she like camping so she'd bring the girls out there in the summer um I being aect Levis too and and I would go from work sometimes I go home and spend the night because with all the animals I had and then I'd run out there and go camping with them so that was just where you happened to be and that's why you went out there well yeah she just she was staying there and said well let's him come out here if he will so we met there and we figured out you know um Investments and for the girls and what things were and all this other stuff and we went ahead and did it he wrote up the papers so how did it break out that we put um was it 200,000 in each one of the girls they had life insurance they had once once the life insurance was paid for there's something with a life insurance that if you p it within a certain time then it's free you know you don't it it it comes out of the account or something like that I I'm not I'm notar you know it's it like the the whether the interest pays for it or something something like that and um so we uh did that and um we took the rest of the money and put it in during both marriages Carlson would Shuffle funds around to to make it more difficult to figure out where the money was going Investments I don't think it's m um it's whatever the market is and um we still kept the checkbook to where we could pull from it you know um but with her name on it she has as much access as I have to it so what what happens then and then no then we live happily ever after till this fall and then when did the I don't mean to interrupt you but the money were put into these accounts for the kids and they remained in those accounts until until this fall okay what happens then and then we she decided that she wanted to leave she wasn't well it wasn't official um T to get personal but it's like she slept in our bedroom I slept in another bedroom and and my daughter Katie which is probably the most she's 26 um she went to R for one year and graduated with a fouryear degree it tells you the brain she's got she is a great kid um she's done so I mean she's with law enforcement if you look at a record you wouldn't believe she can do that much in that short of a time and um she's been my right arm you know and Cindy's always been a little I'm jealous envious because she says Katie doesn't know wrong but Katie can but it's I've never really seen her do anything wrong but it's like Katie's my right arm you know her and I are like two P's in a pod and it's just that's the way we've always been you know and so we um I forgot what we talking we were talking about how the money was divided up so anyway so this fall we uh she said we were in separate bedrooms and she goes that she wanted um half all the Mone and I'm like oh great you know I mean and she goes well you know and she and Katie was pissed at her because for three months she was like I want to divorce no I don't yes I do no I don't but we stayed in supper beds and poor Alex is caught in the crossfire and uh so finally we um both of us have to time signed and she took half the money well she left me with all the debts from the business the duck business so she took half the money and you that have right how does it go and it's probably because I don't know much about insurance but if it's in the girl's name in your granddaughter's names it's not it's not a trust not a trust I thought that you put them into accounts for them we did but they weren't trusts okay but so then you took them back out ofs for right why was that because she wanted have and which was I'm like that's not right how much were there accounts Caryl for the for the two uh grand kids I think they were they I think we put aund and some in each and which it would have been for like a letra which was the oldest you know she would have got up not quite as much as the younger one because of age by the time they were 18 but when you take it out and this is what I told Cindy I says leave it in there I fought tooth and nail and I talked to the lawyer about it that it's half her money because me and I I have our petronio in Geneva and I'm like I want it back this was entrusted to me to give to these girls and he goes you're stupid and I'm like well why he says be oh that's when I found out about if I'd have left it in my name she couldn't have got anything but being that I put her name on the accounts and the only reason why we did is if I died that she wouldn't have to go through um Probate Court no idea something like that and and I told him I said well we did it because the insurance guy said because if you die she's got a fight for it but if you put her name on it it will just roll over to her I says well let's do that I mean I was all we were all happy getting l i mean nothing was was round and so we did but when you take it out the penalties you acquire are like 42% of it and I'm like this is ridiculous you put this money in just like our money we put in there you know what you you might put 100,000 in you're only going to get 50 some thousand back Carlson was never able to grasp financial matters and had a long history of making poor decisions so I'm going to go back track about 100 for each of the grand it was 100 it was over 100 in each one okay so that LE about 500,000 and where was that that was still in the it stayed in the checking account in checking were you using that as was you just leaving in a checking account for a rainy day what was the purpose of that well we we we paid bills we took the girls places I mean we we were we lived off our own money but we also used that too a little bit and then when how much of that was left come this fall well whenever well we took it well when we there was only well when we took we paid the girls we put our money in there was only four years ago or whatever only like or three and a half years ago there's only like 40 50,000 okay well I'm missing something it's probably just money because no we we invested all the other money we took the money for the girls we took um 400,000 out for the Investments for her and I okay what that remains that no we end we we pulled everything out so that's why it my question and we lost I'm going to say we lost 250,000 to the market well well the market took a beating but we lost it because the penalties taken so you put 100,000 here 100,000 here you have 500,000 and from that 500,000 How does it go there was another 400,000 we put in Investments okay 4,000 whose names it was in hers and mine City yours yes and then my daughter Katie was the um executive so you have 400 in Investments and 100,000 here 400 and 200 cuz there's two girls so that's six so there's 100 left but out of that 100 we took all the funeral expenses I paid for my daughter's and her husband and kids airfare you know I I paid for people who came because I just felt at the time she wasn't making a lot of money and I just felt it was the right thing to do um I paid for all the cemetery stuff um the funeral was like 89,000 I think and then we bought the extra headstone um The Headstone for Levi here The Headstone out there and just whatever other cost you know came into play so so should still have been like 400,000 no you got 600 there's 100 left so there's something after all those expenses and this divided up with the the two granddaughters there's this this money that went into an investment right and that was how much that was we put 400 in there and what happens to that M well we her and I ended up taking it out okay why did you take Califor last we took some out last year and then we took out some this fall which was that's where her house she bought cuz she took out she got 150 some thousand what did you get I got the same but I ended up paying off because we have the duck business well one of my big Distributors um ripped us off and you $1150 what's that you spent your $150 oh yeah cuz I was trying to keep the duck business going because of all the bills that were accumulating because this guy what he was doing I raised the duck sold him to a broker that broker was saying okay you sent down 500 Ducks 100 of them were bad I don't do them back they throw them what well 24 $28 a piece he was hitting me like that every week for two years look at that's where your money so I'm like and I didn't know that he was doing this cuz I'm feeding I'm raising them I'm buying them I'm heating them and all of a sudden it's like wait a minute we found out he was cheating us so talk to lawyers about it and all that crap and um hers she took and went and bought a house which was like you know we were still married and it's like what the hell you know and then we're talking toor and it's like well that's half mine you bought it when we and my thing is is I don't give a [ __ ] about the house you know I've been fighting for the girls money you know and it's like and the lawyer says well we can we can fight for that we can fight for the house she just got served like two weeks ago because we the guy that we had back in the summer couldn't find her they got another guy they couldn't find her they got another guy he finally found her but when they wrote the paperwork up they put her name wrong so they had to redo everything so let's go back for a moment if you will to the money that was we might have covered the money that was put aside for your grandchildren your grand there's 200 200 100 and 100 right well there's more a little more because we paid like another 7,000 it's like 107 each so where did that you pulled that out Cindy's got part Carlson cannot account for all of the money and claims that his wife received a portion I but you only get 50 some th000 back out of the 100,000 yeah so it's 100 100 so you got 5050 so that's 100,000 so I took mine paid off bills and stuff and because I make $1,300 a month and I told my daughter I said look I says I spent some of the money from the girls on the house and I've been talking to realators and I'm probably going to sell the farm and and I've told everybody that you know when I sell it the money at supposed to be going back to the girls is coming out of the property you know it's their money I don't I don't you know the house is worth 300 and some thousand so today the girls haven't gotten any money but you intend to get it back yeah it's coming out of the house and you know and hers she's got 45,000 she's got 45,000 left and she even admitted it if you check on her phone on her computer she admitted it to my daughter Katie and she admitted it to my daughter Aaron and they're pissed as hell because it's not her money that was it's the girl money well it's the girl's money but it was given to me to give to them if they need braces if they need glasses if Cassie can't provide something that money and and Cassie is always known that if she gets in a jam and need something right now and it's for the girls I will get it you know she feels that Cassie has come to you before for money she's never come to me for money no have you offered to give her money yes and I've offered and I like I say I take out meat to them a lot how many think you've done um only once but a big a big big load because she when was that month or so ago but I've been after I mean you can check my emails all the time I mean you know do you need meat do you need meat well not right now not right now um I off you know I buy a Thanksgiving turkey for her I I just feel I owe it to her you know I I just feel I owe it to you know I know it's tough they just bought a new place why do you feel your old they're my grandkids you know they're just my grandkids you know and it's like and I know she's struggling you know she doesn't make a ton of money over there I think from what I understand she's taking night classes or something and they just bought a new um double wide they're they live over and her husband or whoever it is yeah because she had a trailer that you you you wouldn't have let a pig live you know but where did her and Levi live they lived over on the back side of Phelps out of town if you went to where the high school is what kind of house was that it was a well they they lived all over I was there one that burned down they had one that burned down what the hell was that all I don't know I don't know I mean when they bought the house they got it through I don't know who they got it through because we were like how do you let two 19-year-old kids buy a house his work record sucks her work record sucks at the time he didn't have a GED and you're letting him buy a $60,000 house that the basement wall was like this the basement I crawled in it and it's this deep a mud the ins the insulation is on the on the mud the I used to do heating air conditioning that's on the ground the the the the furnace is laying on the mud it's not on a board it's not suspended that's not proper right no and I'm like Levi and I go in the light fixtures are hanging from the sheetrock because it's one of those deals that when you buy it you take it as is the roof's freaking shot the windows were shot no C on them um somebody did some nice work on sheetrock in the house in a couple rooms the kitchen was a joke I go out there and he's got a wood stove on a back porch surrounded by plywood with a plywood roof did you tell them that was a hazard with the pipe tight on the plywood roof single wall black pipe dangerous dangerous you got to have 12 in I mean I know it by the back of my heart cuz I used to do heating air conditioning furnaces and all that in California double while do you need an inch single while you need 12 in so I went out spent the money myself told him don't you I ripped them a new ass and it's like you're not going to kill these kids for this Carlson always seems to Circle back to one of two things his health or how well he took care of his family if you need money for heat you say something but I'm going to fix the furnace before or the wood stove so I went out and I bought the heat treated uh like 4x4 sheets of uh asbestos or whatever it is now not sure and um line the back of the wall everything I put um come out of the furnace with single walled put double walled in up through the roof put the collar on put a roof cap on because it's legally it's supposed to be higher two feet higher than the peak of the roof that's 20 more feet you know so I I got it up high enough to where it was like 12 foot from anything and I don't even all I knew is it burnt down both of them had been at work all day how long after you did that work did it burn down two years no they never even owned it more than but it the wood stove wasn't going I know that for a fact the wood stove was not going when the fire happened and if you hadn't changed it it hell of a fire hazard it it killed him he had hot pipe well you could see when you tried to talk to him about that was you like Dad come on yeah and I cut the wood out and the plywood it was the chipboard was all burnt it was chartred I says I said you know better than that you know and he had plastic over the wood roof is a sheet of chipboard had he done that or said there already him and his buddies and I I mean thank God I went over cuz it was going I went in the kitchen got a some cups of water put the fire out and I mean I spent a couple hundred dollars on it you know because it's like you stupid ass you're in the house and everybody that's seen it will verify Cassie's not good at laundering so and everybody always gave them clothes because they didn't have pissed well it was this deep and the light switches were out of the walls the light sockets were out of the walls the I worked on the house for days on the wiring and it's like you turn that switch on it turns the light on over in three rooms down was she gracious he was he he he they they both were very they wanted me to stay for dinner and I was like why not I'm not eating there because of the laundry because of the dishes oh because her dishes get done off in his laundry des and he he painted the the kitchen fluorescent orange he she he decided one day he was going to do her a big favor and he painted it for us some orange did they like it maybe he did when she come home it it got hot in there I mean but it's like you know the poor kid just I could give him 100% for trying but it's like come on you know he knew better than that I mean I he knew how to work on trucks he knew how to work on tractors he knew how to weld he knew how to do farm equipment because you know like I was taught you know you're going to come out and watch it may be boring but you're going to learn something you know and that there I I don't know what all I know is that um I believe it was at night the house spr down yeah I think because they were both um night shift luckily no one got hurt I know that's before the kids or the kids no the kids were born I know Electra was I'm not sure if Ivy was born at that time I know I think if Ivy ivy was Ivy was like really really small but it's like they they never had any business in owning that house young well come on it's one of these that they give you know they give you the key make the payment the foundation wall would be $220,000 to fix the the furnace is on the mud I mean the to heat the house you'd need $3,000 a month when was that from the time when did that happen to the time how much time it last between then the fire and the time Levi died oh probably a couple years couple years yeah cuz he easily a couple years because he was bouncing all over I me he lived in Sant Falls he lived in waterl he lived in Cana did he live back where was he living at the time that he died in Geneva with himself with himself over by the post office was he in a custody battle or what was going on in his life um I don't know I mean he did bring the he did see the girls I mean he brought them out I don't I don't really know anything I've got a copy of all the divorce papers Carlson doesn't have much information on Levi while they were not living close together he usually did not pay attention to his son unless there would be some benefit to himself and all that CU When I cleaned out his apartment he had a folder and he had you know cuz there was cases of um abuse or U abuse um no on the on her and him smacking each other or something I think but nothing was ever proven but i' I've got a stack of papers at home from the divorce and the acknowledgement of the divorce and and I think pretty much they just they had nothing you know so he's living in Geneva yep and they may have may or may not have been going through a custody B I don't think they I think so okay because he was seeing them because okay go he would never have the kids I mean not permanently oh my God no okay it it's just he would probably be at the time a better parent MH but he didn't have the means to finan I mean he was starting in doing things I mean at the weight he was going if I had give him another six months or a year I just said he deserves I mean I think he had him I I think the kids spent the nights with him two at times so I mean I think but I think it was more so to you give him another six months or I think he'd have been in a better Financial place a better but it didn't happen because he cu passed away but I mean I think he really was on the right track you know but as far as custody I don't think he ever fought for the kids you know because I mean I think they were he got to see them and he had them he'd bring them out by himself I mean out to the house um so there the truck that was being worked on that day was yours right do you remember when it was when did you first mentioned to him that you need to help work oh it was I think he's always known it cuz he'd come out sometimes and try to help plow the driveway and two minutes later you blow the hoses and well he couldn't put it on the road it would he came over that day when did you when were the arrangements made for him to come over that day or did he just show he did just show no cuz he wanted he asked me if he could use the barn to put his truck in cuz he had to do something to it okay because I would have had to pull a tractor out cuz we had the big metal Barn there okay so whose idea was it from over that day it was his because but I told him you know whenever you come over you know if you can help me with a truck cuz I told me we got to pull out all the transmission lines and we got to pull the brake lines from the back where the two meat up to the front and pull the front ones off and we bought um instead of buying the ones already pre-bent and I still have them they're straight ones that you buy like 36 inches 48 inches long and you bend them as you go because they're a hell a lot cheaper I'm just gonna stand up and get a go this sucks let me tell you the back yeah I doubt I have a couple friends like that I mean after one surgery I went back to shoeing horses and I specialized in the draft hes which are a ton yeah and uh I fight those guys all the time but it's like it's I love it the meaner they are the more fun I have but that's got to end out your back screw huh yeah well if I could get I mean once you get into it everything numbs up enough to where it's when you stop is when you go home and cry I mean there was times that I used to shoe and I'd have to have somebody meet me out in the driveway to get me out of the truck because I just couldn't when did you stop shoing horses um well I still do we used to have riding horses and stuff and in a few belgians I was still doing them up to a couple years ago oh those are the big ones yeah the big like the Ames but go bigger I always think they're cdale Clydes aren't anywhere near as big as these guys Clydes are they're tall M and skinny cuz they're meant to do what a road horse can which is is pull a lot more and be on a road but also stop the load with their weight yeah you ever gone to an old horse pull you know County Fair you you might the detectives casually steer the conversation to horses it might sound like a topic that couldn't possibly be linked to murder but it is about to reveal a very interesting point County Fair the old well you know you know and I used to do horse pulling and I I used to travel when I used I us to work at Stone with the belgi and I had a team both of them weigh 2,800 lb a piece and I kicked ass I used to go out in Ohio and uh this is the best guys in the world at this business I mean you work them four or five hours a day seven days a week and they're athletes they'll eat 100 pounds of feet a day I mean drink 60 gallons of water a day and they get you win you some money in trophies and accolades well you don't really it's not the money it's the idea that the more the better the horse wins the more he's worth m i mean nowadays he much to cashed in I did a couple times I did good I so what you like building a business you build them up and then you sell them well yeah you buy a horse it's at because you can't really pull them until they're four or five four they're still a baby at 9 to 10 years old mentally they're ready to pull they understand it's like a kid in high school he may be 300 lb but until he matures here he doesn't know how to work what he's got you know so what where the horses you have to sell and um I I sold them and then I'd get another team and then I'd sell them and um I've had some of the tallest horses in the world and I've had the biggest Mar in the world she weighed 3,200 lb never never a horse like f you some money Y and it's but I bought her for breeding and she her ended up being she did have one baby and uh she foundered real bad her front feet the bone rotates out of her it's like the bone on the baby on the mother and the baby died it was only 6 months old but she kicked it out and U it found out that her hormones were she was like a woman that couldn't get pregnant I mean so what do you do with the hor like that you shoot them is that what well she no she ended up dying but the the bone in the foot rotated and the bone come out the bottom of her foot oh and I mean it's did that cause her death no she died in the fire the horse died in a barnfire and conveniently for Carlson there was an insurance policy the incident uncomfortably paralleled the death of his first wife and made Cindy Carlson extremely suspicious oh there's a there's a barn fire proven that um it had the old cloth wiring in the barn and there was an oak beam about you know God knows this big MH and uh it was burnt completely through none of the other ones were so it had been smoldering for and it my grandfather built it and it was older than you know but the cloth wiring we we changed the the lights the wiring in part of it Dan did but he never changed the lights that went back to the other parts of the barn got and it ran across the bean which nobody ever knew I don't you couldn't see it cuz what they did they put a 2x6 over for a seal plate and then they put the rafters on top of it and so it it the only thing the fire department could think cuz I mean it was like two foot by two foot the Raptor the beam the beam and it was completely burnt through where the other ones you could see them I mean burn a log like that you got to burn it I for days weeks right and the only thing they could think is because of the years that it just sort of smoldered and the it was full of hay and and we hadn't been using the barn because it was in the summer oh she never noticed it so we we kept the horses out in the pastures we had other Pavilions would you put them in there at night I just no not only until winter we what I did is we had separated the babies from their mothers we weaned them and um and I put my Big M in there because I don't like putting horses in barns for that I just don't like for what reason fires Barn falls down I mean I know so many guys that have had fires I don't know anything about Barnes but and you know it's an old barn and I and my miror was so big you couldn't put her through that door she wouldn't fit She's Too Tall her back wouldn't get underneath it a damn Shan of loser I had luckily when I bought her I told the guy he says I'm going to take her down to Cornell and I want her documented I want to make sure she's internally okay luckily um everything was okay with her you know they checked what they could you know and um but they had her on record for her weight her size oh really oh yeah so as like record size yeah because she they've never seen a horse like it I mean especially she must have been insured you don't have somebody I I had 20,000 on her I I paid a lot of money which I paid almost that for her and it's like because she's one of a kind if I if her her father you got pictures I got them at home yeah because she's actually in a video at the um Sonica Falls Museum we uh it's called harvesting the trees we had a professor from canid college come out and we did the old time logging M and he hand youed the beams and it's a video on how you used to cut the tree down with the bucksaw and uh Pete McDonald I don't know if you know Pete he did the video and he come out and um got the whole video done of them hand you in the beam I mean we help made the and this is with the horse your what was your name Ginger and um they showed her dragging it out the the log and then the finished product with Square Beam with the dowel holes in it I mean I never seen I always figured you know it's like Towing the line you ever hear State I've heard it yeah you know what it means I always thought it was boxers put their toes in the line prare to fight it's um you stand on a log you draw a straight line on the log for the edge where you want Square you got a line and you put your toes on that line you got an ax with a blade 12 in wide M and you're swinging for that line to make the square the square cut for the side of log and you put your toes on the line CU if your toes aren't on the line you're going to get them cut off and this 80y old Professor come in there and he wasn't much of a guy and I'll tell you what that guy could cut freaking logs like there was Noor just amazing you're not going to catch me Towing the line that's what it means and well when I see him do it's like no steel toes he's wearing sneakers and I'm like [ __ ] he goes well why don't you get him tra not a chance I can swing an ax if it's four feet in front of me and I'm going down to the ground I says no way my and he goes well that's where the saan came from I says well somebody can keep that freaking say because I'd hate to see the guys that don't have toes and I mean see limping up on you but I mean he uh so the drafts have always ever since I was a little kid when was that when did that fire occur a pattern emerges when something or someone dies every time Carlson finds himself in financial trouble 12 years ago 13 years ago and um cuz I had just actually dad and I were going through the paperwork of buying the farm CU my grandfather when Dad bought the farm my grandparents had life use of the the house so they could live there till they died my grandmother went in old folks home she ended up dying at 80 late 80s Grandpa lived to be 97 I think and he left the home he never got committed because I took him to the hospital he he ended up turning into like a little kid when Mom and Dad go on vacation he throw [ __ ] fits say and he that night oh I'm sick I'm puking up blood and it's like okay granta here we go again is that he always thought somebody be checking on him every couple hours and he would put reheat stuff in Tuck water in the oven yeah it's like come on you know and he eats [ __ ] a billy goat wouldn't eat you know I mean really and um so finally I took him to the hospital that night and he never come back again so they put him in homes he got kicked out for fighting and so when he died um Dad he's like well does anybody want to buy the farm and it's like I couldn't afford the whole farm so I bought the house in 36 Acres and that's when the barn caught us and then we were doing the the paperwork and everything and the barn was so full of [ __ ] you could my grandfather it's stuff in there that my lumber my dad cut with my grandfather with a bucksaw was still up in there where actually it covered it was like the center aisle of the barn we had logs laying over toping the whole thing was he he built the barn out of army boxes from the Army de you'd see the box of the US Army on he left the nails in and everything Granda it I mean the rafters were 2 by tws why the hell the barn stood it was a cinder black barn no one you didn't want to put doors I mean the walls were like this cables all over and it's like so did that H that fire happen during the middle of the day cuz a lot of times that could Happ smolder like that the day actually it happened and the minute I come out the house the state trooper was coming down a road is that right and he saw me coming out and I had I think a pair of pants and a sneakers and the barn there was no flame it was just smoke I mean it was just smoke there was no fire at all and um well how' you Why'd You Come run out of the house well oh no there was an orange glow like hold on get back I there was an I looked out the window and we had like an inch or two of snow and there was an orange glow out in the driveway from the smoke no why am I getting confused just hold on a second I got a backrack here and there's an orange glow out on the snow and I'm like what the hell my my NightLight in the driveway is orange but not that orange so I go running out the back all I see is smoke right but where the bar my house is here the Barn's here the orange glow is over in like the driveway in the Barnard from light no that was from there was a fire but when I'm coming this way it's all smoke the fire had come through the roof right where that beam was and it was out in the barnyard it was burning it was burning This Barn was like an l and it was burning over in here so I didn't see any fires at first cuz I'm like where the hell's all so you brought was you looked at the window it was this orange glove but you ran out and didn't see it I never saw it it wasn't any fire it's like what the hell's what's the glob The Troop what did they see they come down the road and see me coming out of the house so he pulls in and he calls and I mean they got there the fire department was there quick but where I live we always get a West Wind we always get a West Wind well for some reason that night the fire was blowing out of the direct North which was coming down our lane and it took the Flames across the road and so it must have just kicked up pretty quick once you once I open the barn doors I opened up the closest ones to the the babies and once I opened that it gave it air and did you call 911 car the uh I my wife called I don't know if she called I think she called but then she called my brothers but the sheriff did or the state trooper I mean and um but the minute I opened up these big barn doors they're 18t tall and and it just took off but the smoke the flame never got to the bottom for a while but it was the smoke you couldn't you got lucky cuz you could have gotten pulled into or burnt or and it's like you know but where we got lucky is the flame not com coming out of the West Carlson did not try very hard to save the livestock usually someone in that situation would at least attempt to open the barn door so there might be a chance at least some of the animals might Escape it I had to replace probably half the siding on my house because just the pure heat but if the flame was coming to the West out of the West we'd have lost the house I mean even the police officers and the fire department are like they couldn't believe we never have a North we just never have a North Wind and that was on your the property you have now yeah that was the home Barn that Dad had cuz when he when he got into the draft horses I was in the military he had the Amish come in and rebuild Stables what you do in the military I was U top secret security clearance uh I put nuclear bombs together okay so what's that MOS is there an MOS is there a four it's a it's a 44 4433 o-4 blah blah blah blah and there's other things that it's all top secret that's stuff that we so you weren't a truck driver oh yeah I was I drove tractor trailer so when did you switch on that to top secret stuff that's that's what it it was it was top speaker because you would ha Nu we we had launch code I carried launch code capabilities we we carried a lot of [ __ ] that because you were calling the weapons oh yeah and the fullsize missiles we we we I worked all over the state of North Dakota and we put the missiles in the silos um we carried the launch codes I mean we there wasn't many of us that did this and um it was a job that at the time when I first started it scared the [ __ ] out of me because when you're underground putting a nuke together um you know what what training did you have for there sh delanois no not where did you train I mean was it is there like a were you a mechanic or an engineer I mean there must be something it's everything you're electrician you're everything because we we we put them together we installed the wiring we hooked everything up put the nose codes on take them out to a silo we encrypt the launch code into the missiles and then we hook actually we stacked the the motors put the two first Motors in then we put the third motor in we put the Canon we put the RV which is the nuke put that in and we wire everything up to where it's now operational and we put a launch code in and we it's it's tough I mean it's it's um and you would drive the truck yeah I drove I drove the the trucks that was uh if you shot it with a tank the only thing we do is roll the tank the truck over it couldn't pierce it you know I mean we worked hand inand with US Marshals we worked hand inand with you know the fighters I mean it was when we come down the road you don't stop um if you have flat tires you don't stop if there's an accident you don't stop and you ever have any accidents I had one where my trailer breaks it was in the winter I mean Grand Forks North Dakota gets colder than [ __ ] my uh one of my back ex the rear trailer brakes locked up and the drums are maganin and so it's like it's catching on fire well now you got fire with a nuke you're that's bad right I don't know much it sounds me well now you're supposed to call a certain word and you have got the most serious problem that you can have in the US you got fire mixed of the nuke these trailers are very flamable because of the material they use to make them and um we're not supposed to stop period And I told the Marshall I got to stop and they're like what no we can't we can't I says if I don't stop this thing's going to burn and it's going to blow and we can't run faster so finally I stopped I caught hell about it what did you do after you stopped um I actually we we uh got a tire we got no hell no got the tire iron out and we unbold Ed the tires and uh took off so you prevented the fire well yeah it ended up we hit it with a fire extinguisher doesn't stop a manganese fire because the metal is actually burning so we started back up the tires fell off and the faster I could go the better it got and we finally got to a launch control facility which is it looks like a hotel fenced in to where we stayed if we had to spend the night and Underground is where they have the capsule jockeys that actually laun the missiles there's like an egg underground and um so we stopped there and they actually allowed us for the first time we brought out another trailer and they actually let us move the nuke from one trailer to the other we have cranes inside in the ceiling and they um allowed us to uh open the back doors I mean we threw a tarp over it but they actually allowed us to move a nuke never been done before I mean who the hell out in North Dakota is going to take a nuke you're not going to go anywhere with it you can't launch it you can't blow it up like a nuke finances may not be Carlson's realm of expertise but he does seem to have a good understanding when it comes to flammable objects you could make a bang but you're not fire right that would be yeah oh yeah you're going to make a big hole in the ground but you're not going to get a nuclear blast because it takes so many detonations it it's so complicated it's not well yeah if you want to WP out Geneva water and Sonica Falls which is the explosion it can make you know if you want a nuke blast you're going to turn nigara Falls and cic Lake into a duck pond but I mean we learned all about what nukes were where in the US to where I could go anywhere I could you know I mean the first thing you walk in you learn 36 ways how to kill a guy with your bare hands because you're hauling a nuke and when you drive down the road you got a M16 on your door you got got a pistol you got a 870 Remington with an 8 in barrel with a pump on top aiming out your door and it's like anybody gets near the truck you kill them how many people you have to kill to protect the truck never never on the truck that that's because and what's funny is our security cops they have to ask permission to put a round in the chamber but us being who we are we're God we don't have to answer I I go to work and I once we we're off base shirt comes off shorts come on t-shirt no T-shirt we didn't answer to the government you know we worked for sack which is a branch we were independent of the military in a way because of what we did you have to do some crazy [ __ ] I imagine oh yeah stuff that you know I never thought I'd ever have to do or never wanted to do but when you got you know you see the Marines going through their basic training God I wish I could have only gone through that yeah it was more more oh they beat the [ __ ] out of you I mean the Air Force boot camp well no the Air Force boot camp is like going to gym class in school right that was my impression you went through something beyond that yeah because it's eight push-ups a day in basic no more than a quarter of a mile a week running a day I'm like what the hell is this we guys couldn't do it what are these things you had to do when that you regret doing well no it's just things with the job that you know you can't say we just can't say you know there's things you get to kill anybody I can't you know so there's a possibility yeah but it's just there's things with jobs that you know you you know we we're training to protect a nuclear weapon I who's going to take one in in Nebraska your thought but you wouldn't believe the fruit cakes that we'd find out in the middle of North Dakota hiding in a hedro which is probably one hedro per thousand miles and they try to pull some stupid [ __ ] you know you get the activist and stuff like that years were you in doing that 1980 to 886 I got out because I uh it's not my I love I actually love my job because there's times I didn't go to work for 30 days because the only time we went and did any work on a missile there's a gyro and the slower the gyro spins the less accurate it is so once the can it started wobbling then we go out and change a computer and or if there you know little things but if nothing goes down we sit home and we're getting paid but um but I mean I got to actually go and out to vandenbberg we took a missile we actually launched one with a dummy Warhead every year they launch two of them I got to see the first MX launch I got to go work on the space shuttle Challenger on the piggy system because the military has its own shuttle launching facility that you know when the lasers all the big to do about lasers and all that came out in Russia through a [ __ ] fit that we could go up and kill all their Satellites with lasers that shit's true that's why the military has their launch I mean I mean that's way back in the Air Force so I did a lot of [ __ ] I mean I've done the detectives allow Carlson to continue bragging and they take note that he has been trained to be able to take a life how did it did it cook you up here no no I mean well it just once you once you get broke and they build you back up it's like but you don't have any mental defects as no no I got the only reason why I got out is they took away um for my height I'm supposed to weigh maximum 172 lb sorry I'm not going to weigh 172 pounds in my best day if you cut my legs off I weigh 220 230 um and I can hold my own other than the body ailments but but I mean it's like they did away with 35 10 the fat boy program which is the body mass so now cuz you see these guys that are at their weight or underweight but they got a big gut they can't see their shoes so they said no more of that everybody has to be able to see their toes you know and it's like so they took away my body waiver and I had gone in the hospital they put me on diets they had dietitians and therapists and I wasn't the only one there was a lot of us and it's like I can't stay I can't get down to 100 I got down to like 198 and I'm like how can I get to 172 and stay there I can't you know but it's just so I got out came home and got a job in a stone quy and stayed there and then my wife's um her her dad offered me he didn't have any boys and he had a she heating and air conditioning so I went out there worked for him and um and very very very wealthy to-do part of California up in be Valley and all retirement homes that people spend Millions on and oh you were living out in California yeah I lived out in Mur little town called Murphy's California how' you like that I liked it I mean the only shitty part is that there's no green grass and the forest fires and the earthquakes I I was out there for the two big earthquakes one that hit the during the World Series [ __ ] what year heard this be I remember 88 89 something like that I almost remember that but it yeah anyway that was a [ __ ] right that was a [ __ ] we were actually what year did you move from there where around then 91 and um we had had earthquakes up where we were and I can remember looking down the hall of our house and it was like just a slow roller is that why you move like any good New York work moved the hell out of California because the earthquakes no I mean it just the the house just did this and then it stopped and my wife woke up oh that's an earthquake and I'm like you know holy [ __ ] then it's like a big giant come over grab the house and shut the little [ __ ] out of you the sheetrock came down the dishes came down the pictures came down the lights come down the windows broke and I'm like you I couldn't get out of bed to get to the kchen is the how the beds jumping all over that that's [ __ ] yeah that's why you get the hell out of there I imagine you know that's [ __ ] because I I I don't know how people and the scorpions are in the house all the time the potato bugs that bite are in your bed all the time you put on a pair of shoes you better reach in or shake them before you put your shoe on Scorpion and they're all over and it's like in it's the same you ever watch a movie ground dog day with Bill Murray m live in California and that's the exact same thing in the summer from March till October it's the same weather every day no rain it's you got one Cloud that comes by at noon and it's 110 120 degrees you go to bed the next day you wake up that same freaking Cloud comes back at noon and it's like how do people live here it's $100,000 for a quarter of an acre you know so okay you know I mean it's crazy yeah California's not for me I've been there a little bit I mean it's beautiful cuz I could see out our bedroom window or out of our uh front porch window I could see snow covered mountains in the summer I lived right on the edge of the stain of sace national forest where the big red trees are the Redwoods the oh no it was 18800 and something gold miners chow hall people we rented it and it's up on Stills the people redid it and it was nice I mean the outside looked like hell but the inside they had kept all the original old wood work well that's cool and it was nice and uh they lived in the Bay Area and my daughter or my wife and her family knew these people and the guy said look if you want move up there and instead of paying me rent take care of the house so she repainted and we fixed windows and re basically remodeled the whole house cuz no the high school kids or whatever would come up there and party so there was beer bottles all over and but um you know but to live there you better make 100 200,000 a year and all the people out of the Bay Area that sold their houses for multi multi-millions would come up and they build these milion $200,000 houses which are 6,000 square feet I mean I did a house for a lady her and her husband she was the first female fighter pilot with a p41 Mustang and her and her husband both had Lamborghini why did you leave Murphy just because of the weather and theur well my wife had passed away and I'm sorry to hear that what was sheill no she died in a house fire oh in the place you're talking about yeah that's probably and I got I and I threw my kids I threw Levi out of the house by his hair and um the girls went out the window on the other end of the house they get out the window and um I broke the window and the smoke got hert her um is what coroner said that they said there was enough smoke in a styrofoam cup and um she uh to do what to kill you if you breathe just the smoke in a star oh you burn it yeah cuz he was saying you know cuz I'm like you know how how come she didn't get out yeah how come and it was the smoke he said that the way cuz she didn't burn much they I never seen pictures I didn't want to see pictures um and he told me not to and who who told the corner doctor whatever and he said she wasn't burned bad and um but he said Just remember was she not with the kids or something well she was they were all sleeping and um she was up in the bathroom and she got up in the middle of the night or something and so she somehow the way he says cuz we had we had a puppy a Dalmatian puppy and we had uh kerosene heaters in the house and um the uh the dogs spilled the kerosene um like three four weeks before and they um they cuz she had talked to her grandmother or whoever it is and everybody else about how to get it out well we should have pulled the carpet out because it was all under the carpet and into the wood and they thought I guess it was a result because it was in the laundry room too and because it it it it was a gas dryer and but we were I don't know putting stuff away and there was boxes everywhere up because we stored everything up in the attic but they the doctor said that um he figured she opened the door and got a whiff of the hot air which would make you breath or something I don't know cuz they told me at first she was a closet alcoholic and I'm like my wife had one drink and that was the first night we ever slept together that was the last drink she ever took so I don't know if you take that as a compliment sound like one you know but she never drank she religious I I miss something to why would they think she's AIC alcohol because her blood count or something and but lo and behold what it was is that I never knew is uh that when you die your blood boils or something and it make your body make produces alcohol and I'm like because they told me she committed suicide I'm sorry not not this woman so this is if this is the middle of the night why were you were in the house you no this was in the day I was down in a barn there was a barn like 200 yard the kids were sleeping they were it was it was nap time oh just little five 54 and just comeing three and um they were na it was a New Year's Day and we were getting ready to go to her dad's house for dinner and um she uh and that's why cuz I was at the barn 200 yards away and what woke my youngest daughter up is uh my wife yelling my name CU my daughter my daughter wrote a little letter and it said everything about that day and that Daddy saved me and my sister and whatever and um you know cuz all I heard was my middle name when you get told your middle name something's wrong and by the time I got up there it was just full of smoke and U when I broke the window that's when remember what you said about a barn how it pulls you in or something well I just met the fire but yeah well that's what happened to me and it I opened the windows were like 5 foot by 5 foot and they slide in the walls well when I broke the window the fireball came out okay and burnt my eyes together burnt my face I mean blew me right off the after the kids after get the kids no to get to them oh okay and it blew me off and the kids are still in the house and um my eyes were burnt shut so I pulled them apart and couldn't see where [ __ ] and and uh my son had got to the window and I got him by the hair this is Levi yeah and chucked him out and um and I got the girls and um but they said she was she was dead when she opened the door because they said where was she in the house she was in the middle of the house the house is like 80 to 100 ft long I mean it was long the windows to get out no no and um and they fig room machine in the middle of the house the bathroom oh so there were absolutely no windows to jump out of no no and um they they had sort of when they built that there there no bathroom in the 1800s so they put this bathroom and the septic system was a railroad tied pit in the ground it's like they really should have never rent I didn't even know until one day the toilet backed up and found out that they dug a freaking hole and put railroad ties to prevent it from caving in it's like how can you do that and then when I called the septic say gu he come out and I said he's like I got to report this to the county you know and it's and the water to the house came out of a flume you know what that is the only picture that runs out the mountains or something yeah it's a little concrete like a little duct isn't it or something it's a little trough and that's where their water came from I says that's freaking runoff you know you think about that's runoff and um they had it running through all these filters you had a tough life so I just sit there said you know what I mean I was making good money I mean no I mean because you lost your wife because of the water and I've been through hell and every freaking way and it's like you know I sit here and it's like you know we used to bring water in by the gallons at from her dad's shop so every day I'd bring in four or five gallons and take four or five gallons home and but um but no it's so you lost your son and my wife and your wife and those horses the horse hes my big mayor and three babies the number of similar disasters are unlikely to have been a coincidence but Carlson doesn't see what the detectives are implying you know and and the thing is is like well I got to ask just know that's that's fine what uh how much did you how much was your insurance on your wife uh 200 on her I had I there was Insurance on all the kids um it was a you insured your kids yeah the wife you know it was a little insurance policy on each okay um cuz I had Insurance on me when I was for my parents put on us and um they never you know they well of course they didn't pan them but they um um it was what it was it was through with my our work it was a retirement insurance thing it was like a retirement policy insurance policy yeah I'm not it was it's weird it was it was weird but I mean it's what do your work at the time yeah okay and um so and um and I mean I went through the gauntlet for that you know and it's a lot you know the fire I mean they got you know I mean when you're home you're I'm sorry how much was you just 200 200 that was she work at that no she never worked well no sorry she worked for here in Geneva they used to have a place called macky's business products in one Franklin Square she wasn't working at the time no no she was she she only worked other than in a high school and when she was a kid maybe two months out of her she was a she was a mother true she so that's full job right there no she she made all their clothes she made she was she competed sewing at State Fair levels she competed um she made the patterns she made I guess bikinis are like the worst thing you can ever try to make for somebody she used to do that on the side this is what her she had the second sounds like a hell of a good mother very capable woman and the most religious not religious to where it's like pushy but she just believed faith I mean we went to church every weekend how long did you live out there four years and she wanted to move back to New York how long had you lived how long had you lived there when the whole time you were out there you worked for who her dad he made me part owner of the business okay so the your insurance was through her dad yeah okay did you get that insurance the minute you moved out there no no it was because I only was making like $8 an hour going out so I went out there to feel it out when did you get the when did you get the insurance it was it was a couple years later or so so how much how soon before her death was she become insur I don't know couple months maybe oh I think it was a lot longer than that I it's been so long Okay but well let's let's try to put a time frame out because it's interesting you know well you remember how Levis we talked Levi's insurance was taken out pretty soon pretty much soon before his death was that scenario no it was farther than that cuz his was like a month or something but well that's why I say with leis I knew right at the beginning they were never going to pay they did though right they did but I mean they technically did not have to and that's what the investigator said he goes you know he never got his physical I mean I gave him the message and that's up to his call whether I don't know if he called and set up an appointment because you have to have just like when I know he didn't have his physical he never had his physical how'd you know that he wasn't living with you the investigator told me afterwards so at the time you didn't know he didn't have a physical no cuz I told him you thought it was good to go no I thought I knew he hadn't had it how did you know that that's why I'm confused because I got the phone call at home he didn't have a phone oh to try to set it up the insurance the lady called The Home Health whatever she called me at our house and I got the phone and talked to her and she says I need to set up an appointment with leevi how do I get a hold of and I says well give me a name and number let me I don't mean to interrupt that but I I get off track so I want to go back to the insurance and what your your deceased wife's name Chris Chris so about how long before before do you think it's it's was it like in other people's minds like relatively soon Carlson doesn't want to answer questions about the insurance it hadn't been in place long before the fire and if the detectives think to question his financial situation at the time Carlson knows it won't look good for him it's got to be I don't it's got to be it's got to be like three four months or something oh okay so it was a significant well actually that's not a long time so she was like three or four months she's she's insured through your job and then she the fire occurs right okay I mean and it's striking believe me you if if anybody were you were you thinking like I can't believe my this is how does this no I'm like if and my f i i you know how some people go through life and no matter what happens everything that can go wrong can go wrong it's Murphy's Law you must be I live in Murphy's California oh they must have in Murphy's Law and it's like you've got to be freaking kidding me you have got to be so did you go through the ringer because of that being a suspicious circumstance well just no it was the fact that she died at home and they got to go through the whole Gauntlet who's that the the fire department I never got invested by anybody else oh so where's the gauntlet just them I mean the fire department push through the gauntlet well they they're they're fire investigators whatever was a it wasn't a criminal investigation no no no there was no but G I just want no it just it just I guess when you're when you lose a spouse and you got three little kids and all of a sudden you lost every the the it sounds bad the shoes and clothes that I wore and the underwear I wore weren't mine people gave me yeah I lost everything I lost vehicles I lost every possession I owned her family was right there right did they help you out yeah I mean they but I'm wearing borrowed clothes yeah that sucks I mean I had a guy that I knew a little bit he took me down bought me lost all your possessions everything we've had a fire we lost all my stuff as a kid and it sucks I lost everything the kids when they were babies all their baby clothes all the pictures the albums that you would save for a kid everything yeah that is a significant loss and so and I says and all of a sudden I'm burnt you know I got Burns all over my face my brother you any pictures from the Burns did you keep in like that I don't if I do they I I don't know where you have to go to the hospital to get check out oh they yeah they took me right to the hospital with an I mean I I was were burnt shut um it's traumatic it must be we had a fire we got out you know what it felt like it felt like somebody hit me in the face with five baseball bats at the same time I'm talking about the L of oh well I'm that too well you're in a da it's like I can remember sitting in the ambulance you know know and my father-in-law hops in and all I could do is look at him I couldn't talk you know I mean I was burnt and I mean it's like and and he knew I guess they told him or something but it's like cuz the road we lived on they the fire department told him that she she get out but the road we lived on was like 8 ft wide didn't they was there you went to the hell of a l that you were living in this place where there was a bathroom that had no window right did you that was you no because they sued me the homeowners sued me for what for burning down their freaking house there's never any cause there was the only thing they could say was kerosene and uh so did you acknowledge it was some sort of neglectful thing no they had no smoke detect for renting for California rental codes codes they had nothing and I can't get over this was like an old window or was well the window was like that big and it was boarded up you should their asses off oh and I went I had wait did you board it up what's that did you board it up no we had to because it was no good but you couldn't fit out of any you couldn't put you might be able to put a baby out of it a baby you and I are uh 80 lb woman there's no way you could you why you because it was all broken the everything shot oh yeah you know and it's like the frame was shot the the frame of the house was shot and um when did you board it up like eight months before and and the thing was is that these people to tell you how screwed up they were I got sued Christmas Eve when did this happen January 1st okay okay Sheriff comes to the house Christmas so following year following year they were smart because you got a one-year time frame I couldn't get a lawyer and get replied back to them because we had to fight in California well would you w still living in California no so I my family later on came out got me and brought me back home because I was just when did you move screwed up week and a half after she died Carlson left the state as quickly as possible after his wife's death while no accusations were made at the time some family members questioned whether or not it was an accident because I had nothing right and my father-in-law was reeling the same thing MH you know and my my my my dad sent my brother my brother Mike and my uh sister-in-law out and they had plane tickets for us you know and I just I didn't give a [ __ ] you know I didn't care that's a traumatic loss I would imagine you know still feel the effects of that now you don't get over it you don't get over it anybody says you do it's [ __ ] and people you said that you went through the gauntlet have people been suspicious about no no cuz they knew her they knew me we she was a woman that out of all the Levi ever accused you of killing his mother no no no one's ever done that no no okay they everybody they knew her she didn't have a temper she didn't argue didn't believe in you don't go to bed mad even if you think you are you don't go to bed M she just believes she accept the good with the bad and you deal with it and you're learning from it and you move on tomorrow the Slate's clean and that's the way she believed and I mean we I mean I'm not the most religious religious person but I am a firm believer that there is there's a Gody yes there's I believe 100% I mean there's no there's no doubt and I think the older you get it's like I told Cindy and I think I texted her or we talked about it I said I've been going back to church and I said you know when I walk in the door it crumbles I feel like that's what my mother would say when I walk through the door the church crumbles when I walk well it doesn't does it no it's like I feel lighter I feel like the pressure is off I feel like just it ease you know and I says you know I'm glad I'm doing it I mean I'm doing it on my own I'm not doing it because he's my wife's telling me to go to church and it's like you know know and going div it's like you know divorces suck I hope I never find out they're the worst thing you can imagine because it's everything you worked for everything you thought you know it takes two to make it work it takes two to make it fail do you do you love Cindy I do I really do even to I mean even to this minute she had her demons coming into the marriage which was her alcohol every time Carlson brings up his current wife he makes a comment to undermine her credibility you know but at the time I never knew that why would you try to set me up to get everything what the house but there's nothing though really right I mean I got the farm that's 300 and something thousand okay cuz she knew I was going to go after her for the house and the money for the girls she has nothing and that's what I kept telling Amy lap I says she has nothing the lawyer and I have already talked about that we're going to go after it you know what are you going to go after the money for the kids okay the house the house you mean what money from the I get confused the money the money that we took from the insurance bought that house she has so when you say the money for the kids you're talking about your house right no the house that she owns in oh okay gotcha the r all the you're going to take that like a rental house or something yeah she's renting out or something I've never seen it I don't even know where all I know it's in nework and so you're going to you and going to go up to that house because that was money it all comes back to the money that we invested in everything was from Levi which was given to me and that even though her name was on it it was only on it to um in case I die and so the thing is is that yes she's entit to something from the farm that we have now you know it's we're married I mean she's entitled to I have no and I thought you know the bargain and Chip is going to be because we've got bills from her business she owns cnk Farm the the business for the Ducks raising the Ducks okay gotta I own Carlson poultry M okay cnk is in the hole big time okay and I told her and my lawyer told me to tell her you know uh we had 14 16,000 Ducks when she left where are they I they oh they're all dead now gone to restaurants or I've killed a lot of them because they didn't make weight they were too heavy or how you how many ducks did you kill probably 8,000 how do you do that it's a long day well it took many many days you know but I sold a lot I got rid of a lot of them to people who raise Hawks they used to feed the Hawks the people that go out to the landfill and stuff like that but um and it's sad a lot of my ground up for sausage where because I'm in the process of I backed off a while but dealing with Cornell and getting a USDA inspection uh or USDA processing plant so butcher so I can sell to restaurants out of state um in state we've been doing it because we're under a 5A as long as we don't kill more than 20,000 Birds but you don't have any birds right now nothing and I told her I said you know since you left the bills are 5050 because they're still your Ducks I told her sign off the business give it to me and you you have no doubts and she's like nope nope nope and I says well and I talk to the lawyer he can verify he says do it he goes Kill Them All I says I'm not going to kill all these ducks he goes let them starve I says yeah be arrested for animal cruelty this is a lawyer telling me and I said sit there and I says I don't have the kind of money it's going to take and he sits there and he goes talk to your Farmers see if any of them can help so I was getting feed from anybody so oh to try to feed them to keep them alive but well when you're taking them off their diet they lose weight because these things in eight weeks are nine pounds so you start giving them something different they don't grow as good and so we argue her and I argue she goes well that's your problem just send the paperwork to my lawyer well what do you do in the process when the animals are Stu start Co yeah and I says it's the most I mean it's the most Humane thing to do I says I'm not going to let I don't think there's any issue with that I'm not a farmer or anything about it but did you're animal I think yeah oh yeah there's nothing legally wrong but I said I'm not going to sit here and just let him starve slowly and the lawyer says just keep track of the bills and everything else and he says just but it's like I don't really care about the house she got it's and my daughters both know and they've asked her give the money back from the girls that's that was given to Dad and to Dad to take care of even though yes those girls know her as grandma because she's been there from day and that's why I ever have a life insurance policy on her no I have no not on you did Cindy was there ever a policy on her no nothing no because she always figured that if she died I could work and I could take care of myself makes sense and um with me with me she she's got the policy I don't have it and I've asked her about it I said do you still have it on me and she won't give me an answer for I mean I mean and sort of and this is a weird way of looking at this but I'm like when she started talking like this I'm like and this one thought went through my head is like okay should I be looking over my shoulder she might try to kill you yeah in a surprise twist Carlson accuses his ex-wife of possibly plotting to kill him to collect the insurance money that close to your mind when you think about having Insurance yeah because why it's with this whole ordeal it's like why would she be asking or saying that if if you come clean and all this it it's like come on it it it doesn't make sense I don't get the end game on that I mean I know you're saying and again I still believe and I I think we share the opinion that you you caus that vehicle to fall on your son I don't I don't I don't think last of you for it but in any EV I don't understand the end game because I want to you say she wants to no no I understand what you're saying there you've explained that I don't agree with it but why would she what's her if she's playing this game I don't what is she going to get it doesn't make a l because it didn't make a lot of sense to me in a lot of ways still doesn't because cuz you can't figure out why she would do that because I didn't know if she was drinking again cuz if she came over many times to get my son he'd call up and say Dad mom's drunk again she's passed out on the couch okay so so if she drink the play would be to see if if she's playing with a full deck of cards no but I mean what what is her motivation to set you up I don't know okay cuz I I would like to know I don't know because it's like to me it's like what when she left me she the last the last two years my daughter's never never knew she drank my son never knew she drank we went on a cruise I told my daughter Katie who was a cop said look when you graduate college I'll take you on a cruise we did my daughter brought she drinks a little bit of that Red Cat Wine it's nothing fancy she's not a big drinker at all Katie Katie and um and she is about the most she would pull me over for a ticket I mean she's oh she's she's got cop tattooed on her ass believe me and she's a small girl but don't fight her because you're going to get your ass kicked and it's like I Katie's we were on the cruise we get there and my wife the night before we went down a day ahead because we always do it in case a travel problems that I don't want to miss the cruise my wife got in her luggage and drank three bottles of wine and the drive down the rag down at the hotel in the matter of hours that's crazy daughter opens up her suitcase there's no wine she's like well where's the line then I said well we need to talk so my son was up swimming or something and I said said look um Cindy was in the room I said uh just want to let you know Cindy's an alcoholic and this was like two years ago and uh then Cindy told her that she got in her suitcase and drank her three bottles of wine and so the rest of the cruise my daughter was basically taking care of my son my I was basically babysitting my wife wherever she wanted to go she'd stay out till 3: in the morning I'm tired been in the sun all day but her her drink of choice was straight vodka and the line mainly vodka um but her sister died of it got in the hospital curosis yeah week later she is she drinking these days that's what I'm wondering because my son always had the feeling when we split he goes dad this though and I don't mean to interrupt you but why would she ever think that you would admit or confess well that's what that's what got me it's like because it doesn't I mean it's part part part of me is like ridiculous oh I know and I'm sitting there and I'm telling my friends the same thing I says what is her game friends Amy lap and Donna went you didn't you said that Donna didn't know about it until after you said Katie didn't tell Katie until after either right drinking yeah no no about how you were had this you were exploring this game right oh yeah right right and um so anyways uh so when Cindy was going all about this I was telling the neighbor I said something isn't right it's just not I says what and I was really hoping we could get back together and the more I got thinking you know maybe it was sort of looking at it with what's suspicious what's suspicious about Levi's death in your opinion what is suspicious about it to me to us in your opinion you're a smart guy what what do you why do you think were suspicious just I don't I guess your daughter a cop and she's a good cop when you tell her so she must get that from you being an analytical person so if you are in our seats I don't know I mean well I guess you can look at it you know what is suspicious I guess it was I don't you see I guess oh yeah because I'm the last person that's seen them and I had the insurance well that's fine there are a lot of people that way you know there are a lot of people that you know you're the last one to see him and and I understand legally what has got to be looked into I'm not stupid I'm not the smartest person in the world believe me and my grades if you look at my R school grades I was in school till I was 20 years old instead of answering the question Carlson changes the subject and hopes that they will be distracted but I always told myself I was going to graduate it wasn't going to be like my brothers they got the certificate of attendance one quit because I'm not going to be told oh I attended all the classes didn't pass them you know so I'm not I'd say I'm not a rocket scientist but in a way I am yes you know um the military I was scared to fail because of dad I mean I really wanted to prove that I'm somebody so let's put everything in if I so I understand what you're saying believe me I mean I understand what you're looking at and I don't know like there are some things that you don't know about right well but it's just the idea that it's like you know it's not and for her to do this it didn't make sense and like I kept telling the neighbor I says I'm going you were really worried it was a trap right I you oh I'm oh it proves that it was but it's it's like but it's like okay you know I want to see you know I'm like I want to see where it goes and I told her that and I you know the neighbor lady cuz I says I'm going to play along and I knew I'm going to have to feed Cindy line of [ __ ] and tell her what I what she wants to hear did you I end up at the police station no not in a million years not in a million years and I really thought that you know her and I it's like all the time and I told my neighbor I this how could you ever even if I admitted it like how long were you gone at the funeral I'm sorry to interrupt how long you got you and Cindy gone at the funeral over 4 hours 4 hours 4 and a half maybe a little longer think about that for a moment do you know how accurate they can do with the cause of dep based on body temperature atmospheric temperature I all I know is what they tell me the it's it's accurate within what's 315 to 25 minutes yeah maybe so there's a big problem I mean I don't know ex I mean I'm thinking 4 and a half maybe a little longer because I know it was it was after 11:00 when we left I think and we didn't get back till it was like right around I think 4:30 or so right in yeah we Revisited all those things and all the the things that were done at that time of his death and we've sent him in to many places that go the State Police lab in nor County lab an analysis has been done they can much put it within a 15minute window it's not as precise as we'd like it to be but basically or specifically it was before he left he died and it wasn't because of any other than a crushing chest W so that's that's one thing that you may be upset that I revealed I don't know I apologize if you are well I mean but that's but that's a fact that we're dealing with typically when we interview somebody we try not have to play all our cards I have I have no problem with you guys telling me things being honest I know what I know you guys got what you got and all I can say is but that's that's something that can't be disputed I mean it's he was by your own besides the fact that you told Cindy what happened besides that by your account that you provided us today about you going in there yeah how many times did you tap her can I ask did I tape her how many conversations I don't understand what you're saying when you taped her talking to me she taped you right but how many times two I think right why what is we met like three or four different times on this matter and every time the story changed Carlson continues to insist that he was lying to his wife while she was wired in part two of his interrogation the detectives will begin to get more intense with their methods will it be enough to get Carlson to confess hopefully you enjoyed the video if you did there is a patreon link in the description where you can support the channel further thank you for watching I'll see you in the next next one [Music]