if he is the person we think he is then other people are at risk son was there he helped me we were working on the truck changing the transmission lines brake lines the whole nine yard um went in gave him some money left went in where went in the garage okay and um so we got done with you know talk to him said goodbye and um so then we uh left come back a little after 4 and went out there and found him what do you mean he found him I found him dead okay the truck was on out this video contains the second part of the interview of a man who killed his son for insurance money in the first portion of Carlson's interrogation the detectives focused on the death of his son Levi and how Carlson had already spent insurance money that was meant for Levi's daughters in this video Carlson's disturbing history of fires and insurance claims comes to light what I'm telling you is I mean I know what you may what I'm telling you is it's indisputable it's not up to us we cannot argue about there's no room to argue is that Levi was dead he may not have died in your I wish I could say he died in your presence but when you walk back in there if if you're being if you're telling us the truth and saying you had a conversation with him you're lying because he was dead at that time no I had a conversation with him I'll tell you that well he was he was either dead when he walked in there or as you walked out that's fact no well I disagree because I know the conversation I had with him and I know I handed him money what was it we were talking about his other truck we were talking about him coming back out to help me you know we were talking about that truck you know the evidence physical evidence in documentation from doctors will probably provide testimony the fact is that he was dead unless un the only way is if he died while you were there or before you came in you see what I'm saying well I I'm not sitting here speculating but you know could he died two minutes after I walked up no and that's the one thing that we beat come on no that's what we beat them we gave provide them with a window based on Cindy and based on what you said and the people who were there like that fire crew and all that stuff they were able to eliminate the possibility he died two minutes after or 3 minutes there's a there's a window there but it when they start they start they reverse it well and that's just a fact that's that's kind of is what is I mean I think I don't know I don't know what to tell you I can't I can't tell you something that isn't true well well we don't want that we want don't and and I think you know I think time no I'm just I think Tom kind of took a Leap of Faith with you here and that's fine and I I understand you guys are being as nice as you can about it and being as polite I have nothing negative to say I mean yes I cannot believe I'm in here I yes I can't believe that but there's something about Levi that haunts you Carl I I know it does well the thing that haunts me about it is that your Sun dies something more than that no nothing else nothing else because somehow you you always bring up believei yourself not if someone else ask you like and we ask you you know why we're here well it's about son in my wife come on what what do you think when Cindy asked you when Cindy asked you I know you have secrets you come back with so you think I killed L that was a very telling statement by Carlson Secrets could have referred to many aspects of his life unrelated to Levi's death yet that is the first thing that came to his mind oh by the way she said on the the her one message to me she goes I know you I know and kyl nobody the game that you you're playing nobody plays that game nobody's going to come out and say I cause the death of my son because I'm going to try and ha that's why I kept talking to the neighbors As Time pointed out what's the end game there isn't sense well that's what I tried figuring out is that what is she after and my I think you're afraid to tell us what really happened I know fact I know I don't think I know and I don't know if it had to do with the drugs you were taking at the time I don't know if it was because of what he was doing at that time in his life he had turned around at that time in his life for probably the last six eight months let me tell you something k your told voice doesn't say that mean you talk about you're not we're not do with this I know but I'm not I'm not gonna sit here and blow smoke up your butt and tell you that you know it he K my butt's smoking man well I don't know what to do I don't know what to do I tell you that there's there's there's only a couple possibilities the way I see it one you planned it and you did it for insance ins money or you were in there maybe you're messed up on drugs I don't know only you know that and for some reason you decided that he had to go what parent would do that I'll use your words Carl it happens all the time it really does and it's sad I thought I I did things for him that probably most parents would never do I mean financially helping them out sticking even though I was called so many names that a parent doesn't want to hear you're a workless fing father and this and that and I stuck with him because he's my kid so why did he have to go you tell me what made Carl do this I did Carl didn't do it no he didn't sorry well you don't have to apologize no I'm just telling you I did not do I'm not the one that's in the hot seene but I'm just telling you I did not do it no it's just that I know that because of the the man you are something about Levi's dad haunt you it always will haunt me and for some reason how would you I mean I guess I I don't even want him I mean I either that or you went in there and he was dead and then you left and and for some reason couldn't deal with it so you just left them there I mean I can see that happening what was it car come on we've been dancing here for hours let's stop to dance man let us help you you know I mean whether you believe or not we're reaching out to you we know what we know and you know I mean you we can look at each other as just man to man and we both know what happen the only thing we don't know for sure and I have my beliefs is why it happened that's all we don't know that's the only thing and you can make your own bed and the hardest thing to do for you right now is the right thing but I would imagine it would be easier for you because you've been doing the right difficult thing all your life but right now the right thing to do is to be honest and do the one thing that you've been good at your whole life is standing up and making the tough decision and you know in your heart if you have a heart you know that the right thing is to stand up and say yes I did do it I did it because I thought it was the right thing to do I did it for my family and you know what there was money involved but that money is not for me you can go through every ounce of it I didn't get it it's been for my family I put it immediately my grand but you know what we can't we can document and prove your involvement in this nobody can document what's in your head and prove it right so what you know what happens is you know what happens I leave it in their cord to let them think you're the first person I've interviewed that actually caught on to that you're exactly right I mean we're going to go through can you just I'll just shut it off how do I do on the side there's there okay so that's first person I've ever interviewed in 18 years it actually finished my sence what happens is we're going to lay out what can be happen is we can lay out exactly facts boom boom boom Pro it and then they leave it in your mind it's never been then they have to speculate what's in your mind it's never been in my history in my experience something so crucial as what is in the person's mind going to happen because and everybody's going to blast me for saying this there is that insurance policy that's hanging out there you're taking a chance here but no no I I agree with you that man if you want motive or whatever you want to say there but I don't believe that's motive I believe for you it's you know what this kid is shooting down a trail where he's going to end up a loss he's going to end up hurting somebody and himself and this is what I can do to make his life worthwhile and I believe truly and you know I'm going to get blasted for saying that but I truly believe that that's what you did you've been saying all and I can't believe you know I'm shocked that you're not you're a guy that was in in making the hard decisions when you were in the Air Force well this is the toughest part this is the most critical juncture of your life you can stand up and defend what you did because you know it was right tell us what you did and say you know what godamn it I did this I thought it was right then and I think it's right now and my dying breath I'm going to defend what I did because that's the kind of guy I am or you can spin this blind of [ __ ] which quite honestly you in a million years would never believe not if someone tried to run that [ __ ] by you you would say get out of here I'm not buying that so you lessen yourself in my opinion you are this person your entire life you got a police officer daughter who is somebody special I don't know she is I mean both and you she's that way because you raised and then you're in this critical spot most critical juncture of your entire life and you're feeling the pressure and you are you're letting the pressure be bigger than you you are not able to tell the truth right now if you were truly if you really truly fell you what you did was right and which I think you did a minute all right I I did not Jo oh that's just Su there's no way I could have but he was dead when I went in there okay tell us about that doing great you can do it you can do it couldn't K could let's talk about what what Happ I walked in there and walked in there to you know give him his money and holy [ __ ] and I just blank just how day your life why did you keep it a secret for so long what I can KN never kill I couldn't kill him there's no [ __ ] way I mean it was an accident and it's I blame myself every day just like you said Carlson has decided to change his story now that it has become clear the detectives believe he is lying he hopes to convince them that Levi was already dead and he went into shock but this version isn't more believable than his first story I recently released another exclusive patreon video exposing a chilling incident where a man Unleashed his rage by committing a shocking act of violence against an innocent 15-year-old this heart-wrenching video shows interrogation of Cody The Man Behind this horrible crime watch the full video and more at patreon.com stranger stories plus that so when he went back in he was he was dead dead and I [ __ ] freak I just like it's like it didn't happen there's no way you know I mean it's just I would give my life for that kid how about the radio Carl it the radio was on but it's one that comes on it goes off it comes on it come you know the volume you know what I'm saying I got the radio home you can see it I mean and it it changes sort of whatever it it does what it does it's a piece of the radio's older than me you know and I could never kill him but I [ __ ] fre I [ __ ] freed and can you imagine telling your family oh I can't I mean can you no can you imagine walking and a day later two days later I'm saying and I know for being on a farm a live animal compared to a day so you knew he was dead I reached out and touched his leg I knew I knew I knew I knew I knew you just I knew and he was his legs were blue you know I mean it's it's it may not have been a long time but cuz I mean I went in took a shower watched little TV you know and so I mean it wasn't a long time I mean but it's like cuz it was a [ __ ] accident I jacked the [ __ ] truck up and now did you did you jack it up when you got back Cindy or did you jack it up before you went back out to the car no I jacked it up when to get him out when we come home okay you know and all it was was the jack is like this wide you know narrow and we had it under the front bumper and the back two wheels were on the ground so that's why it could te her but he must have been reefing on something because he still had the wrenches in his hand I had to break almost break his fingers to get the wrenches out of his hands when I when we come home I can never kill my kid I don't give a damn if you g me20 billion I love that kid more than because I knew he was struggling I knew he went through what I went through as a kid you know sucking at school you know my parents didn't care about our grades or anything you know but it's just you had F work to do you know we had the snowmobile business you know and Levi just I see him just struggling you know and it's like he finally when you know it's like when he did the good thing at guardian and he found the defects in the class it's like he was a [ __ ] hero you know they really just like you couldn't believe what your son just found I mean it was like i' say millions of dollars in glass because everything with that defect in it had to be thrown away and if they wouldn't have caught it we'd have been making it maybe for a week longer you know and you're you're making millions and millions and millions of dollars a day and he caught this thing that normally you have to use an inspection light and he caught it with his naked eye when it was in midair so I mean but to sit there and say I killed him no that's Carl You' come the span you're almost there I know you I know you I did not no way no way in out no way I know he did no I didn't he wasn't dead I did not did not push the truck over no way there's no way no way I think that I don't think you want to believe it no I know I didn't but I think you had a good reason and I'd really like to know what that reason is I don't have a good reason because I didn't do it and maybe it was I don't know I I really like to know because no I didn't that I I will never say I did because I didn't so you came in there and you and you found him dead and you went back out with Cindy and spent four and a half hours and all I could do Liv with that you don't know how hard it was I just it just like it didn't happen it was like something you said to Cindy really stuck in my head and and it it made me I don't know I kind of admire you for it there was a time when when you were talking to her one of your conversations and you said what I did having to live every day was harder than anything else oh than that harder than if someone had killed me I never I could never oh I mean what I seen that day and what I didn't do for him I could never change I could never change I can never change how do I tell my family how do I tell my kids that oh geez he was dead and I walked away how do you do that oh I I can see where that would be difficult difficult I mean because every day it's in your head that I left him there when he needed me most yes it killed him about his instant when you have a truck dropped on you you know and when it fell it's that's a lot of weight I'm not stupid but where where where was he under the truck under the under the front part it was the front like it was like the EXO across his chest it was well it was actually the the plow frame because it was a plow truck and it had the metal frame welded you know underneath that the plow hooks to it was that that was laying over his chest you know I mean and he had one arm up you know when I pulled him out he had one arm up you know up like working on you know it was sort of like hanging on a over the axle or where you pulled them out after you guys came back right right okay the description of Levi's position is pretty accurate he was working on the truck at the time of his death and had no warning of what was about to happen I did not kill him let me digest this for a minute all right I I'm not even sure you should be using the word kill because I'm not it's not it's I didn't had I had nothing to do with that I blame myself for the truck Fallen because it was my truck he was working on something for me I mean when you it'd be no different God forbid something happen and your kids were working on your vehicles what did I miss we were just talking about we're talking about how he found you know when he walked back in he found Carl he said I'm sorry Levi and he was dead because his legs were blue yeah and then he was crushed underneath the cloud frame you know I mean horrible image I mean I know dead animals when I see them and it's moreid to feel but it's like I knew so take me from the beginning what you you were in the house I in the house took a shower all that stuff watched TV got dressed you know no big hurry shet I mean it's a funon for God's sake suit and tie and um and went out there to give him money did you go to the cir forthy or no no I went out to the garage oh no I went to the mailbox first I think and went to the garage and had the money and it's like came back in and holy how exactly I just walked in and it's like I see the trucks off the Box you know off where it was set up and it was tipped one way or another I don't know and it's like holy [ __ ] and all of a sudden it was like it just time stopped what what did you do immediately after seeing him I I I reached down and touched his leg and it's like I just like couldn't deal with it just like I can't deal with this I I mean I'm just like like you know I'm it's not it's not registering I mean I could never ever ever kill my son that's that's just that is so far from I mean I would have done anything for him anything and I did I mean I gave but think about this you say you do anything for him even take his life if it had to happen would you do that for him no I mean if he are you brave enough to do that no not at all I'm not I'm sorry I'm not man enough to do that if he was getting ate up by a lion or something and you were was cut in half and you you know and I think you understand first of all I really appreciate you being but I mean to walk you took a leap fa took a leap but but I want you to I don't want you to take a step back here because I'm not but to sit there and say you know I still think that somehow you push that Tru no no way no and and you've gone this far no there and you're afraid to take that last it's not it's not it's I will argue From Hell from now on but what you have acknowledges that when you came out of your house you walked in there and Levi was dead at that point the truck had fallen over but he was dead too I I heard you say I think I by grabbing him I mean it the car was on him the car was no longer jacked up correct it was off the block so you walk out of the walk out of the garage and you must be hysterical I'm like BL just like it didn't happen so Cindy must been what's going on what's wrong well if she didn't I don't know I mean the day is I you know it's what what are people going to say when we talk about the are they gonna say he was distraught or they gonna say he just Carl no I don't think they'd say it's Carl that's you know there's obviously something wrong with you at that point well you walk in and see your kid dead I couldn't imagine I cannot imagine I and to sit here and to sit here knowing there's nothing I could have done for him that there's no doubt but to be the person that I did everything to make his life better I agree I did I mean I I couldn't imagine the amount of money I gave him over the time he was in pain I mean I I spent Mone on his vehicles I I gave him I took him to work at 3 in the morning I did everything even when he was calling me a worthless and father my opinion you has not changed since the back but to walk in there please do and see your kid it's like you you just bike it's like it's not like it's not like that feeling you see a stranger you know you go over and help it's like beyond that way worse it's like 5,000 punches in the stomach you can't breathe you can't think you just freeze you just panic attack just whether it's it's like this it didn't happen What Would S say about your demeanor it must have been noticeable right this is what I'm having you would have I I mean I would have to be so just here's the problem Carol you you were proven to be who we thought you were but you're struggling with this as anybody would but here's the problem we know he died while you were there so now we know you're being honest about that but as strong as you're being and it's and I know this is the worst decision you ever had to make in your life it's not it's not I mean in a way it is but it's well here's the thing it's good for me to finally get it out because maybe fact I'm saying the decision decision you made that day that's I got to live with that the rest of my life right that was then you I still I appreciate you being truthful with us in the fact that he was dead before you left there the detectives are pushing Carlson closer and closer to the truth they may even suggest it was an accident if they think it will get him to admit he pushed the truck but here's the problem here's the problem you made a decision there's no way you came out of that building having just been shocked with the fact that your son was dead and nobody picks up on it I unless you knew it was going to happen no no it's impossible to believe I'm sorry you're selling yourself short I'm I'm not going to sit here and I am not going to tell you I had anything I want nothing but the truth and my partner wants to say this is this is what I'm telling you right now you made decision that day I made I made I made a decision to walk out on my son and not get him up from underneath the truck why I panicked why it's a great question I I panicked I just like car and believe me when we look like at the at the reports and the deputies report and and things you said and the way you acted when the deputies arrived that just doesn't how did I act when the deput arriv I was balling like a freaking baby four hours yeah and hours later because I finally pulled him out and seen his face and that just it all come you're getting so close to me I'm not gonna tell you I had anything to do with I'm not I know you're I can't I'm not gonna tell you something well we don't want don't ever make any mistake in here I know don't ever misconstrue what we want here we only want the truth that's right period I want nothing we're not interested in anything other than the truth I don't think we the truth right now we had some of it much closer but it it doesn't make sense doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense make sense to anybody else you made a You made a brave decision I'm not NE that say I agree with it but you know there's only one you made a difficult decision to end your son's life I did for the better of him and for your family sorry I still struggle with the fact that it's possibly for the money but and the only reason I struggle with that is because I don't know exactly where that money went if I knew that that money went right to the the grandkids I would say that you made a tremendous difficult decision but if money went to you then you just cold blood M yourself no and I find that hard to believe I do too but where did that money go she's got part of it where did the money go she's got part of it or the rest of it of the C girls's money like I told you I got part of it I paid bills with part of it because I'm unemployed I can't work this is what I'm I me and and like I say it's like and like I've told everybody else that you know that's why I got the realtors in and everything else because pretty much I'm gonna sell the farm because I can't afford it I live on $1,300 a month Social Security and it's like I fixed it up a little better so I can sell it because it was in between renovations and it's like the girls are going to get their full money even if she doesn't come through they're going to get their money you're not willing to defend your decision you're going to take the easy way out you made a decision it's not an easy if you think it's an easy way out you're kidding you have not told us to complete TR yes I did 100% no you didn't I don't mean to say that not said to P off I respect you uh as as a person and a man um do you want more I just I can tell by looking at you I mean you're not a good liar and I think that you you told I mean you told the truth about that that Levi was dead when you were in there but I think you're afraid to take that last leap of effect I did not kill my son I would never even k a couple hours ago you were telling us that you would lie when you laugh well yeah you're right right about that but see I understand we do this for Liv I understand why people they're getting self you get defensive because it's like all of a sudden I'm trying I'm having a million thoughts and it's like and it's like now it's like okay finally maybe I can tell these guys that you know I mean you're not my enemies you're doing your job and it's like to sit here and finally tell somebody that what happen it's like the pressure camps off the pressure cooker mhm you know because it's like I couldn't tell anybody it's like volcano people can't stop it what would people think what would my kids think of well Grandpa let my daddy die grandpa or dad walked away from my son or my brother do you know what that does every day you would me for a second without saying a word in your head think honestly why is Levi dead right now think about it in your head don't say word why is she dead right now the reason behind it are you capable of justifying that now without saying a word think about are you capable of justifying that to your family I sort of don't well what I'm saying is I believe we know that you you caused this death I'm never going to say murder I'm never going to say you killed him and I believe you did it in a manner that nobody else would be able to do it you had to you know you were able to benefit your family and be strong enough to remove that's the sickest thing in the world well you know what and I know people do it but that's the sickest thing in the world you know people do it because that's in fact what you did no no way Carlson remains adamant that he wasn't responsible for Levi's death as far as far as he knows the only objective evidence against him is his confession and he's willing to risk that not being strong enough to convict him and you had to didn't didn't you when you in the military you had to make life or decisions right right but I mean you this this is this is your kid this is somebody that you're having trouble dealing with it right now you're having trouble dealing with maybe I'm having trouble dealing with the fact that it's finally come out that of what I know happened you guys got your own thoughts proofs whatever and I understand that I'm not disputing that but for me it's it's like this is just opened up neither Falls to me that it's like make difficult decisions well that it's like real men have to make decision you I know but you shouldn't have to justify if you made a decision well I I made him a decision I'm not talking about you walking in there and find your son's deceased because we all know that that's not true well I'm not going to sit here and argue with you on that because we can get that that's not going to happen because it didn't happen and I'm sorry I mean you don't have to apologize but it's just you I you are in my opinion you're not giving yourself enough credit if you would be honest and really say you know what like you said before this is what I did I was you know if the medication had something to do been soie I don't know but this what was going on in my life this is what was happening to my family I am the caretaker of my family not just my wife not just my children but my grandchildren and I had to make a serious decision here and it's not easy to do SPL second I mean if you didn't plan it then you just had a split second to think about it no and I didn't do it I mean I mean I had the truck jacked up I'm the one that jacked it up and I live with that every freaking day would you like more water on the no thank you you know I live that every day that that choice I did that choice of jacking it up that choice of just it should have been me under there you know you live I mean I I think that you probably really think that I think you you wish that it was you I do I believe I mean look at me I'm a train with my help and you know what if you don't you know tell the rest of this story it's going to ruin you oh it has it it's going to tear you apart it is it has tell the rest of the story it wasn't just that it is it is you didn't just walk in there and see him then walk out and then come back four and a half hours later that didn't it didn't happen that way I mean you can say that and you know and I and I'm not saying it to be a prick I know you got your job to do you got your my job is is is to is to is to get thing is is just and they said Tom kind of took a little of faith and thought that that that you were worth talking I'm just saying we get paid by are we don't have to do this [ __ ] you know I mean come on said we've been dancing for hours and you're finally starting to tell the truth and now you're hitting up against the wall again and it's just making me feel bad for you no the thing I can't tell you something that I didn't do no and I I did not kill him I did not push the truck over you know I did not is it possible that I mean is is is is there some reason and I know there's something you're still not telling me I've been doing this 26 years I I can read people pretty well is there something that I'm kind of figure in my mind what what happened in that garage with you and and revi and why I can't come up with a good reason why you didn't tell anybody about it right away okay that doesn't make sense to me that that will never make sense to me or probably anybody else either so so I think you need to justify what happened am explain why I don't know and how can I put this real simple manto man right why did he have to go you tell me you asked the guy upstairs because I've asked many many times Well I and believe me I have I've had my talks with him and it's like okay why what did I do in my whole freaking life to deserve this I mean when I when I when when I listen to to the recordings KL when you were describing about the truck and at one oh I was playing it good I I give myself nearly 4 hours into the interrogation Carlson still can't give a satisfactory answer to explain why he would give an elaborate fake confession I I was because I wanted to see where this is going because she it's sort of like I don't know if you I just well anyway KL you were talking about details about how she asked you one point was it hard to push over you said no it was baled on a rro no but did anybody check that the back wheels did have blocks on them or that you know you know what I'm saying I mean the thing is is just I'm tired of this whole thing I've lived with it for four years and it's like it pisses me off she set me up it pisses me off I mean I know that truth has got to come up I I understand all that no matter and you're well on your way and to tell the whole truth I don't think you're telling me the whole truth I sit here I sit here and I think back of that day and it's like I relive that day every day because it's something that you know you you just you don't understand till you've been there to see that and it's like you can't it's I don't know if it was the medicine that just made me go into never Neverland I don't know I mean was I on really Stone like normal back then yes anybody will tell you what I was taken even the doctor when he found out what has taken he says you should be dead you know and it was stuff that was prescribed for me it wasn't marijuana it wasn't cocaine it wasn't nothing it was stuff they gave me it's stuff that I took to stop from hurt and car and to sit here and you know and Carl when you when you went to visit Levi's grave on the 4th anniversary you say I always say something what' you say I miss you I love you I always take take care I'll take care of your kids till as long as I can I mean I you know I I just talk to him you know tell did you did you did you think he could hear you well I wouldn't be talking to the ground then would I I mean sometimes I just talk to myself like you know I could be driving down the road and I'd be just talking to he's there do you think he can hear you now I hope you think he's proud of you I hope honestly I really do that this come out I think you'd be more proud of you well you know I know you guys are going no I just know but this is what I'm not doing this to be and I'm sitting here tell but I know there's more Carl I know there is I mean you can tell me there isn't and I can't force this is not you know a torture chamber this is you and I talking and it's just and I'm talking to you too that you've got to sort of respect I know you guys got to I respect you and you got to keep going and yes you got that out of me and it's like like you said it's I got it out of you you know why I got it out of you k because you don't feel good about what happened that day that I know about you feel good about walking away from your kid would you feel good about it no of course I would I know there's nothing I could do at that time right now looking at it there was nothing I could do know that for sure Carl I've gone to a lot of deaths in my 26 years as a police officer what you're telling me don't make sense W okay that's not the way people react wow I'm sorry but I'm GNA have a hard time selling that to the bosses believe me I mean I'm just I have a lot easier time selling if you tell me the truth easy to sell everybody buys the truth oh I know and I'm just saying that I think you made a split second decision it was you saw the opportunity the trucks balanced over him and for some reason whatever was going on in his life he was better off no he was leaving this world and I'm not sure why but you need to tell us that he was much better off alive because he finally and Cindy and I both agreed and other people agreed he changed when he finally got the opportunity if somebody believed that he could do a job he was good with computers and that's what running the machines at Guardian work they computers and when he finally got praised by somebody other than Mom and Dad and he was getting a very good paycheck he was working with people from his age on up to 60 you know being in and it it just opened him up and on Mother's Day he has never ever gotten his mother stepmom a Mother's Day card ever he wrote on a piece of paper it was a day or two after he he had to work on Mother's Day or something a day or two later he gave my wife a note and said Happy Mother's Day sorry I couldn't get it because of the work or something and it was like he's never done that he said I love you he's never done that it tells you how he turned there's nothing that would make me want him dead there's nothing that would make me think oh well there was something about him his life that bothered you though because I could hear it in your voice when you talked about him Carl there was something about Levi's life that frustrated you oh it frustrated me for a long time because there was everything I did wasn't working just as you as a parent you try to help your kid and it's like gee he's not getting homework and you blame it on you you blame it on everybody you blame it on him and then when he finally turned and I seen him at work and there's times that you know I sit there driving around on a fork truck and I mean he was laughing he was finally happy you know I was proud of him I was totally proud of the fact that he was finally living and then the day he died when I walked out there and seen that it was like getting hit by train M Truck it just disbelief disbelief and I walked out went to the funeral and I don't think I talked much at all and I just zoned out but then when you came back but then when it came back it was like walking back in and all of a sudden it I knew I had to walk back in and it was just like getting hit by you remember telling the deputy that you didn't know why he was spending so much time on working on the truck well he was supposed to work on his truck for a while you know what I mean he was supposed to work on my truck and then he was supposed to work on his truck and we figured he'd already been gone but I mean but now I mean like I say I knew know John John and Carl here speaking it's a tough sell buddy I'm have a hard time selling that I I think it would be I think you would help yourself more if you if you explain what really happened that day you're not telling everything I know that and I'm not going to get mad at you because you're not I'm not I can't tell but but but it's but you're not gonna you're not going to be able to convince me kyl that there's not more to it because I I can tell just by talking to you there's not I mean I'm just right now you're probably about the 10,000th person I've interviewed my career I can tell but I'm about the radar it doesn't lie the thing is is that I'm more worried about my kids are going to think I think I would be too in your shoes I would be worried about that you know am I gonna lose my kids am I gonna lose I think that I think they would think better of you if you tell the whole truth and stand up because it was an accident you know through and TR it was an accident that God I wish I could go back and change it was a stupid I didn't do something that minute some people would freeze in a similar situation but they would not be able to function for several hours afterward without someone realizing something was wrong but it's just like I froze I just I you don't know what it's like to sit there and live with that every day it's almost like and I think that's what caused the divorce it's you become heartless you become cold you become I think that there's a part of you that that can be heartless and cold and I don't mean that way no I mean a lot of people a lot of a lot of men who made difficult decisions have that inside them well you have to learn to shut things out you do you do but that's just the way and I think the whole story what happened in that garage you're shutting part of it out right now and I know you don't want to to admit that I mean and and I I respect you I'm not going to make you say something I mean I I just sit here and it's just I just but but I think now is a time if there's ever a Time Carl that you're going to get it out now is the time to do it you've got a couple of people here who are will to help you and I want to go to but if I go to my bosses and say that yeah sure if I tell kind of tell him selling that story that he just walked away um I don't know that's going to be real [Music] tough you need some more water no drugs I do not kidding because it gets worse it gets really bad what are you what are you taking for the pain um well I wear I wear patches fentel patches MH and then I take viket in and the anti-depressants the ones they got me on re reacts to the other medicine and which it keeps me on a level so you don't like with normal pain pills like an aspirin you take it it makes a headache go away and then the headache comes back slowly or this it gets me up there and it keeps me sort of level with pain because it gets so bad that you you know you can't sit you can't walk you I mean you can't breathe sometimes you just but the more I can move the better off I am but it's just well for what it's worth KY you're a pretty tough guy all right um uh and I it's sure it's sure ain't easy saying something getting you to talk about [ __ ] you don't want to talk about well it's not that I don't want to talk about I'm glad that I'm honestly I'm glad that's all but it's just it's it's like when my first wife said well I need to know more I need to know more and I talked to my neighbor about it I said she wants me to tell her that I killed my son and I almost lost it and I'm like the neighbors like baffled and I'm baffled and I'm like how could anybody and I kept tell how could anybody ever think that I mean I know there's people that have done hard things I because I usually they they think that and usually when they do things that that some people may call hard it's they've got a a reason you they may have a reason that they feel Justified sure and I don't think you like you I don't think you're a bad person it's like there's nothing that can justify killing your wife your kids your your uncles your parents your I mean it be different it'd be different if you killed the I didn't say you killed your wife no I know but I'm just saying you know I that's why I'm saying wife kids whatever Carl did you no no I already been through that no hell no and no way in hell I had the best marriage and if I had anything to do I would get rid of my wife now and have my first wife that's how much I loved her we loved each other I mean she was I could you couldn't find fault with her you know some women you marry you know geez the only one let's put it Bly sex once a month she was the perfect wife and it's like she was I guess an angel I I don't know is she just what she instilled in my kids is there today you know what I mean and it's like I mean I had a hard time raising the kids on my own I did it's like okay I'm mom you know I'm mom and dad I did I did the braids I did the ponytails I did the birthday parties I did the cupcakes and Bronies you know and it's tough you know and you know with losing Levi is we finally got him going in life and Cindy and I talked about it I said finally you know it's like the loads lifted off we don't have to babysit him I don't know how many times we went down to the Sheriff's apartment and bailed his ass out of trouble pay fines I mean thousands of dollars in fines and it's like holy crap you know and didn't he have a I thought I saw when we were going over the past stuff I thought he he he caused a CPS report to be blown in on you too for something like time yeah they got you hit him or something and oh yeah well I hit him then there was one about because there was some kind of fight because he accused me of killing his mother or something like that I saw something like that I no no um um he He Turned Us in I don't know how many times and every time um he would come back say he lied one time I beat him up so bad he was spitting blood out of his mouth and nose and my wife Cindy walked out of the house and went to a casino that whole day she was at the casino with her aunts because her nephew turned 18 or something or 21 they ended up going to Canada and he couldn't get in the casino they had to be kind of mading to have CPS show up because he keeps making [ __ ] we just one time they came and she thought is when we filed for pins and she thought people were there to talk about pins while it's investigators she's all oh hi come on in have coffee and then it's like well we're not here to this is because you got these accusations and we're like oh no not again and it's just we knew he was mad he was fres frustrated with himself life was being shitty to him you know and it it finally came down to where he hit the bottom of the barel girlfriends kicked them out he moved in with another person sleep on the floor for months at a time and you know he had nothing was he divorced when when when the yeah I've got the divorce papers and all the decrees or whatever you call them so she wouldn't have got anything anyway if they were they had nothing I mean really when I say they had nothing they had nothing and um he was paying child support out of his paycheck you know to her and um I think I think he I think he was I mean he have to be because she was real stickler around that and I would give him money so he could pay give her something you know before he because he wasn't working and you can't it it when I mean he wasn't working he worked this job for $8 an now this job for minimum wage by the time he paid his truck gas bow which got six miles to the gallon because he had to have big tires and it's like Levi you can't do that you know and it's just I kept throwing him the money because he's my son he's my kid he's my kid and you know and I knew how Cindy felt that you know let him go on his own let him take the hard knocks and even she went down and bailed him she did with a lot of money and it was like you know so she had so he was a troubled kid right he wasn't he wasn't a kid he never said that you're not my mom to her never and he he wasn't troubled he was just like said he's he's making false reports against you I mean how many kids do that not too many Carl I mean some do I mean obviously the social workers that we had they said you can't believe how bad it's getting you know the snowball is because and a lot of it was he would tell a kid that oh I got spank and then it would snowball and then of course the teachers hear it they got to report it well then all a sudden he explained well I said this to this kid was it true well no so Levi never accused you of killing his M no no because I know I saw a report that said and I'm not sure where it came from no did so he did did he ever talk about that day with he was he was pretty little right he was was four I think four or five something and um but now my oldest daughter she we still talk about you know she has memories of it and she can remember you know that have you ever told anyone else about going in there and find anybody that we're the first people thank you for for for for sharing sharing that with us the detective focuses on the true parts of Carlson's story which make Carlson visibly uncomfortable how could you how can you how can you how can you how can you tell anybody that you walked on on your kid how how well there had to be a reason like I say I don't know if it was I'm not going to say it was the drug I'm not going to say that because I know I don't know I I mean I know from what I used to take and Cindy will tell you and Alex will tell you and Katie will tell you and Aaron will tell you and everybody that knew me tell you I was a stoned why I'm alive is beyond me because of the amount of medicine I took and even the doctors look tell you they don't know why um because and the doctors are prescribing me this you can't mix Oxycodone you can't mix D per you you're you can't mix VI and I was I was and then you throw in the methanone and you know methanol is what you give the CCT they the heroin guys to get them off because it's way worse than heroin is but it's more controllable you don't have that Spike the heroin will get you up there or the methodone and you're just like this you're like a fly a plane at 50,000 feet you just you're just saing you don't hurt and as long as you keep the medicine in you you don't come back down you know but with me throwing everything else in I mean like I say there's days I would sit at the couch and the kids would I'd look right through I mean I could fall asleep standing up literally put me in the room boom I'm out and I'd stand there and all you know even my daughter and I we were just talking about it the other down there yesterday in New York City you know of how I've changed and how I've come around after getting off after this one pain specialist took me under his wing and said you're getting off this you're getting off this you're getting off this you're getting off this and I mean I would sit there in the mornings and I'd have my bottles all lined up one of these two of these three of these two of these two of these one of these and I just grabbed the handful and throw them it and about hour later pink elephants are flying I could work because it didn't hurt but focusing I forgot all the time I would be in the middle of sentences and I still have the problem is I could be in the middle of a sentence and I'd have to ask you what we talk about and I still do and it's you're doing good today I think you're doing better than I am well it's I haven't had my medicine other than early this morning but I mean it's just you know it's like when I went to um got on Social Security and they told me that I I can find a job for a certain amount of money or something and they're like well you can answer phones I'm a method do you you want me running a business and being on methodone for you I may to tell somebody they're an [ __ ] you know and not know I did it you know I can't remember at the time I couldn't remember [ __ ] you know i' C if I went downtown I'd have to call the B wife and say what am I downtown for what am I getting you know and she would have the right list make sure it's in the car and and why I didn't kill people driving is beond me and I was too stubborn to give up my driving I didn't drive as much you know but but I get real motion SI so if you put me in the passenger seat that doesn't go well with me you know I can't I can't ride in a car very long if I'm not driving because I will throw up it's I'm I have to wear the patches a lot and um but um no it's it's this whole deal it's like I I I you know how do you walk out of your kid who dies Carlson was able to walk out on his son the same way he left his wife to die in a burning house while he stood outside you know I've thought about that for four freaking years I mean you're I have an answer for you but you're not going to like it how do you walk out on your kidney dies when you had something to do with it no um and maybe your involvement was minimal I I I don't know you need to tell me but I know you're not telling me whole story what happen at you know and it it's just how you can't do that I I couldn't do it I I I could do a lot of things but I could not you you can do that to if your own kid you can't and it's like walking out on him it's like it's just like it was the blank it was the just I don't know there's no word for it there's just no word for it there's not because you're not a parent you're not you're supposed to protect them you know and I blame myself that you know like I say I blame myself because I asked him to work on it you know I asked him to do things for me there I you know was under the truck with him in the morning I mean we were both covered with grease you know I can't do a lot you know I've always had bad shoulders I had this one done few years ago and you know and it's just you get me on a floor cold damp floor and my back just locks up and you know you know know what I'm afraid you know what I'm afraid it's going to happen I'm afraid that when when it comes out that that you did walk in and he was dead you told us that that your your kids and other people that know you are going to say God damn it he killed them for the insurance money oh I know right so I'm thinking Carl and that's what I'm gonna have to let them think so I mean I'm not I can't sit here and say that I if it wasn't for the insurance money and if there's something that I me come at you're not telling the whole story here I know it you know it it's not it's not come say no I can't I can't tell you I killed them because I didn't I didn't well the truck killed them oh I know the truck killed them but I had nothing to do with the truck F I mean when you're leaning on it did you no did you push it messing around no I mean oh it's I was dressed up I mean I was in a suit tie a whole nine yards I mean the truck was a girl I mean no it's and and why why why would I why I don't know there's a reason you're just afraid to tell me about it and I'm not saying that to be disrespect you I'm telling you because that's based on my training and my experience tisue well you know what let me get one let me get a give somebody grab me a tissue hello um there's some just some paper towels doesn't there's not a day I don't I can never forget like some I'm going to look for something little more little s go go right ahead how you holding up difficult B you're doing a great job with well I mean I know you guys got your job and I know you guys got whatever you got but like we've been talking it's like part of me is glad it's out part of me is scared as [ __ ] it's out and part of me is like you know I have I have nothing I had nothing to do with him that's one thing I will take to my gra about stand in front of God you know I have that much belief in in that that I know that um but I wasn't there when I should have you know that I still struggle with I know I know and I'm not going to I can't argue with you that I can't because I and I think car I think everybody's going to struggle with it oh I know everybody's gonna because you know what and people weren't there it's and that's the thing that I gotta fight it's like people weren't there and why I did what I did I don't know I'm not GNA sit here and say oh it's good for the drugs you know some people say oh I was stum I don't remember there's so many things that I can remember today tomorrow they're not even in the picture and I've got people like I say I've got people that will tell you that up until a year and a half two years ago Carlson keeps falling back on his health as some excuse although at the same time he says he isn't going to blame his actions on the medication he is a mess of contradictions and the detectives aren't going to let him deflect from the truth I honestly should have been dead for everything I took why am I my body is moving and alive I have no clue and it's like whether I'm not going to sit here and blame it on the drugs I can't I mean because I don't know but it's like I know my son was finally got his life turned around he was doing great at work I was so proud of him at work I mean I drive by see him working and laughing and he was he was the Levi I remembered as a kid every when we talk to everybody else and will they have are they going to tell us about this Ling father you were Levi how are they going to describe you I was tough on them I mean I was tough on all the girls they got that everybody got it the same don't think they did I mean there wasn't like just because you're a girl you got your ass DED my son Alex raised totally different we raised him the way my wife wanted to raise him because it was her only body he was a test to baby she had to a topic she never had kids and so he was raised her way and my daughters are a little I don't want to say jealous or anything but they know he was spoiled and um they know that Levi or Alex got what Alex you know he he he just got not more but like the kids are grown up and out of the house too let me tell you what I think because you about this whole thing I'm not asking to say anything this is my opinion as as an outsider is that you've come a long way we we know what this we know what this opening entails you know what you said to send obviously we know about time of death looking at all these things it's clear to me I also understand what your position is on this and how you're looking at I believe you're struggling with this for obvious reason only because you feel bad you don't want any way to think that you were involved in son's death oh I didn't and that makes sense but I wasn't so I'm I'm going to I believe that you were but and I also believe that you didn't do it because you're a monster and you didn't do it because you were trying to take something away from anything I believe you did it because you were trying to better the go right ahead I believe you were trying to better your family and let's face it was was Levi ever going to be able to provide $700,000 to the family honestly other than in that mean was working day in and day out if he maintained a job would he ever been able to provide $700,000 to who to his family oh in time we all I mean come you figure out what you make a year and then you know in 20 years you make 700,000 I think that that's probably not true I think that you probably made a decision no that was well a Higher One to make no as an outsid looking in I can see where you're struggling with this I think if you let if you just let the truth be told you know now struggling with the pain I can believe because my medicine I don't have it and it gets bad it's it just does we got food well I a worri about that just medicine is what just sucks my whole thing sucks it does there's no doubt about that I mean it sucks that my wife I'm not gonna blame it on her I don't know that you can anybody to blame really you know and I mean I'll take I'll I'll take the W for walking out on my son and I have for the last four years I'll take I'll take the r for that but I did not kill I did not kill him I did as we looked each other man and man my pce advice to you is if you could see clearly from my spot from my position here I think that you would realize that as comforting it is to you right now to say you just walked out and not tell the complete truth if you were in my shoes you would be able to see truth is a is actually better for you because the truth is in my opinion that you your heart was in the right place and you were actually making a difficult decision it's Instinct even when you're a child and you parents catch it doing something wrong you cannot get yourself tell the bigger the bigger the issue you can't and when you get in these situations people no matter what they're made of revert to that and unfortunately we spin these lies that we're stuck with and then you know you're going to be you're going to be stuck in a situation where today you tell this story that makes no sense and like you said you're going to leave it for other people to fill in the dots all right and I agree people are fill in in a nice way oh I know if you tell the truth and fill and allach yourself with the truth then there's nothing for anybody to decide you're look at it and say this is right or they're going to look at it and say this is wrong but at least you know when you did this in my opinion right then you know that you in my opinion you did this for a reason it wasn't for greed it's not because you're a master although let me let me say another thing as I'm saying that I'm thinking you know what there are some strange circumstances in your life uh you know your wife I know I know that's bizarre believe me I know I have lived with everything and it's like you know that's bizarre we all we all laugh about things I would never find any have you seen this youle no I believe that you yeah looks there's yeah and Tony Chrissy is the insurance guy man were you sick at that point you look very thin is this why were you that thin now you were messed up huh no I was excuse my language I was [ __ ] up [ __ ] up no doubt about I never realized it doesn't you ever bringing a guy in here that's been on crack or absolutely um go about 20 times worse that's remark I would eat maybe whenever I mean it's not I like I say it's not that I you know was popping let me ask you this no I no please go ahead I'm sorry mean I wasn't popping pills just to pop pills it's just they quit doing back surgeries on me because every time they did the parts that they fixed above it you're only as strong as your weakest part makes sense so the whole body me I got Cav bones in me I got brown bone in me I've got everything under the sun in me they fixed me the top blue take me back in fix me the next part's B fix me the next part's BL then I can't wake up so an anesthesia they said you have had too many surgeries we're going to coming down to the anesthesia something anesthesia it take three four hours for me to wake up because they had to keep putting me in ler and ler or something and finally they said we can't do anymore we good and it's like I need the surgery and I begged for him to put in the two rods but you can't it's two rods from your skull they both through your shoulders all the way down into your hips any more a permanent fixture like a light pole yeah and I'm not 60 years old yeah I'm surprised you even mentioned that well I brought it up because I did my research and I says this would stop me from moving the problem is my disc are gone it's bone on bone so if you come up and push me from the side um I'm either going to end up paralyzed for while paralyzed permanent or I'm going to be on the score ground crying or I'm going to be really hurt none of those I can't if I even fall it's like I have to lay there for a while and you cry because I have to wait till my body sort of I keep moving until I get back in place and it's like realiz yeah and it's like I want to go back to this because this is I've never read it so have you seen it before no know what it's about no what it says here is it paints a slightly different picture and I think this is what I understand this is some insurance company publication it discusses the policy your son it says here Carol Carlos mat you brought his brought his 23 old son Levi to Anthony's office on November 3rd to discuss we didn't go to his office we met at a bank okay okay I'm just going through how this is slightly different that's all right you brought him there Levi had just been to an acrimonious divorce not even sure what acrimonious means but I'm sure it's not good Carl wanted saying you wanted to help his son so obviously we have we will find out where they got this from if this is true if this is true what that tells me is you know you were probably trying to help your son really exactly this this paints a glowing picture hry no I'm not really I'm good but you want to leave him here proba hry we'll leave it then whenever you want something you can have it no I'm fine okay set it over here this paints a pretty glowing picture of you and your relationship leevi how I just finally was looking at this going over what it says here you didn't write this no no she never read it before what it says spell especially was AC acon we got the boss in here so let run by him what does acrimonious mean acrimonious the context is regarding divorce acrimonious means like nasty not very good we were right were right so but this is a compli to what you told us it says Carol Carson himself brought his 23-year-old son Levi to the office so it kind of implies that you you know it was your assist here Carlson told the detectives earlier that the insurance policy was Levi's idea but most evidence suggests otherwise and Levi well I was talking to Tony because because Levi didn't have a phone so I was the go between guy between him in between the the nurse who called the house that you know and like I said we rode together down in his truck but this definitely if you would read it would definitely says like you were the you were the cattle list to helping your son get this insurance that's what this says again these are not your words we'll find out if this is if they took your words out of context but during the next week Anthony worked with Levi to schedule Insurance physical exam with the paramedic you talked to us about that you son it lit long enough pickup truck when Jack slipped you crushed to death the next morning Anthony found out about it this goes on to say and I'll let you read how they chose to honor this it seems like they didn't have to no they didn't have to because he didn't because the one thing Tony said he goes to me a couple times that we had talked he says you know they don't have to pay this because he didn't have in insurance and I knew he hadn't had the physical I knew he hadn't had it because he hadn't gotten back with the lady and I I know that because that was one thing that really kept we kept going over which I didn't give a [ __ ] if you paid or not I didn't give a [ __ ] you know it wasn't my money it wasn't anybody else's I mean it was sad that you know for the girl sake but it's like there's nothing in writing that they G to pay you know and I knew that because I'm the one that got the phone call from the medical lady I just it's no I don't I don't know I think I think Tony wrote that or something yeah that's kind of what it kind of says it was bad the drugs must have been know that's that's not that bad much th thanks he just looks thinner I think oh I was a lot th this is when I was really cooking I don't know that a slightly different well here's we I just got some more news that that we should talk about um I had somebody interview this person okay and he says right or up is what he's saying he says that you knew about The Accidental part of the policy see I I can't remember I did I can't but here's the thing all right now that's now a matter of record right well that's he discussed it with you well I like I say so we're it's starting to look more and more like the insurance angle know which is why I think believe it Insurance well I know you say that in black and white yeah it's what it's but you know what I think that if you're going to help yourself I think you need to explain Carl because I you and I are already on we're agree and disagree on the one thing that I know he something to De with it there's but if you're going to let it go in this direction no I don't want it to go in that direction it was I it's going there on its own we're not making it go that direction and I can't stop it if I if I sit here in which I'm not going to say I had anything to do with this St I didn't the only thing I had to do and I didn't you're telling me you're not gonna say it and I it's something I can't say because it's not true it's not true you know and my fault I hear him helping me work on my truck it's my fault I'll tell you I I believe 100% that you don't want it to be true I don't it's not it's not it's not but but I I know it Happ there's not even one not exactly sure there's not even one t there there's no reason there's a reason K you just don't want to say no there is no reason we were finally getting to be you know watching him grow up he finally got to be a man he finally got to be a good friend he finally got you know he had finally between him and I and me helping him get his job we finally got his [ __ ] together so once again John why I don't why do they have to happen talk to him and I'm serious talk to the guy upstairs what there's nothing there's no motive there's not the money you could give me a million do0 million AB I would give everything I got I think that that there that there is a reason I think that we're missing it I don't know how because and I think I love my son I guess we can let it play out the way the way it is that this was it the insurance agents that said you you I mean like I say I mean I mean that's fine but I don't remember it I mean if I if I could remember things four years ago you remember $700,000 remember you know you just said and I were talking about that so you know I mean that you don't it's even worse because then it's not it was accidental death and then he did he dies in an accident yeah but I want to believe you I I don't I don't know what to tell you I wish I've been spending the last couple weeks talking her and thinking about things and it's like well I know you wanted to get her back well you said you loved her I think you do and a lot of it was and this is sad to say I almost believed her that if I said what she wanted to hear that she would take me back why would anybody want to hear this in one of the most outrageous statements that Carlson has made during this interrogation he claims he confessed to killing Levi so his wife would take him back it's a lie so unbelievable it wasn't worth telling how long was she in ri's wife since he was seven so there's no way you thought that she wanted to hear that she wanted to hear the truth is what I'm assuming I can't imagine you think that a mother wants well that's well that's the thing it's and I kept that's why I kept talking to the neighbors it's like yes she never actually come out and S I know well you could tell I kept well that's why I kept fishing for more why didn't you just tell hey the truth is he was dead when I walked in there because could you admit it I wouldn't let that happen but that's different I'm not in situation you were strong enough to admit it we respect you for it but I think you don't know I think you you need to tell the whole story Kyle well I can't tell you anymore there is I know there there's not I I you're not not telling the whole story you really AR I can't tell you what isn't true you have in the past and you are to do that but I honestly think if you could set back and give yourself a second to look at everything and what you're saying and look at it as how it looks to the outside world you no you will realize that the truth is the truth what you really did and the reasons you really did it are better than the reasons you're providing but I didn't you know you guys I know you guys doing your job I know everything like what you're doing what you're saying what you're and it's like you think I want to be here KL I don't want to be here you don't want to be here he doesn't want to be here to think that you were working on a case something like this I wouldn't want to be here to think that people can do this is I mean I don't know if you're religious whatever but it's like I'm not the most religious you know I don't live and preach the Bible and all this stuff but I believe and had to knowing that out of all the [ __ ] that's happened in my life and many people have said you know God only gives you what you can handle and maybe maybe I'm just here to take the beating and maybe to wise me up or maybe to there's some other thing and you know I've come this divorce as bad as it's been I've become so much closer to my kids you know I I sort of was always worried about working for a living or or about things about me or my heal and it's like anymore it's like you know what I got kids I got grandkids you know and it's like damn it you know but to sit here and say that I killed myself I I there there's no way there's just no you know and I know people are going to think think what they want and it's like there's no no way you know what I did was there's no word for it but that was an accident 100% and the only thing I did was walked out on him when I should have been there for and whether like I say whether it was partially to do the medicine I don't know I I'm not going to play that card or whatever but it it's just it has sucked the life out of me for four years you know it has sucked the life out of you and it's like I told you guys earlier you know and I don't know if you were in here at the time but you know when I go to church and stuff it's like when I walk in it's like the load's lifted off it's like somebody else is holding it for a while then when I go back out the door I got to deal with life and deal with things you know and it's just you know and I've never told my daughters or anybody because it's like what they would think of me what they would think of the situation that you know could they understand that you you know you just Panic freeze whatever it's you you do you you're not a man that panics and freezes that when you see something like that studied you for a long time for many months I feel like I at least know you somewhat oh I I panic believe me um I do Panic is running around yell and no Panic is not knowing and I never used to be this way but since I've been on all the medicine there's times that I drive in a car and I get lost and I get freaking panic attacks if I if I can't find my way out I start it's like you almost want to say I want my mother and it's to do with the medicine I mean there's a lot to do I mean and I'm not I don't mean to keep coming back and bragging it up but I went through four or six years of being sto I mean you guys you know check my medical records whatever you probably will but probably already did well I mean it's it's it was tough and it's like you know it's tough it's tough I mean i' go to Guardian to work and the guys are looking at me like holy [ __ ] man you can't be on a truck tonight and I'm looking right through them and you're expecting me to Dr drive a 10 ton forklift and load glass or run cranes with glass 160 Ines long weighing 6 eight tons and I'm working two feet from you and you're 10 feet under the ground below me and you're want me to you know push put it through a spot where you could hit something but the guys they trusted me I was good at what I did but I wasn't there and guardian put up with me because they said if you ever get in an accident where you got a plant damaged and we asked you to do a drug test you're going to be on your own you're going to lose your job and I said okay and anybody there will tell you I was a freaking animal I was a workaholic I I would help out I would come in on overtime I volunteered I left the worst job in the plant to go to the best job in the plant and I asked to go back when they had employment problems because I knew and they let me have the crew and they let me crack the whip you know because I knew I just I like my job that much you know and it's just I would do anything for anybody but to take the life of your own son that that that doesn't even I I mean and I know I've I've been around long enough to know that there's circumstances where a parent might have to do that yeah but it's it's not I don't know what I would if I had one of my kids and I knew that their life was going to be miserable because of the choices they were making I might make that same call yeah but you you can't though you can't because who are you to you know you're you're not in control of anybody going say you're not it's up to me it's up to him you're in control of you my actions reflect and I think the ELD you get the wiser you get but it's what I do that affects everybody else and with him I I got away from doing the yelling and being a father or being the the parent to where okay we're not going to go that route we're going to go the route of what am I going to do to help you and I started you know handing him a little money just we had gas money he could still come out and bring the girls CU he didn't have gas money to make it out so I said fine I'll give you the gas money I want to see the grandkids or whatever and he had job interviews here was gas M what was the job interview you know he had speeding tickets he had this ticket that ticket okay we'll pay him you know but you're going to work on the farm you know helping me to pay it back you know and um he did most of the time you know and I I didn't make him work he didn't earn it let's put it that way but um but um you know it just and then when he hit the bottom of the barrel I mean he called me up and he just said Dad I'm kicked out I have nowhere to go and it's like and it sort of like I was relieved I says I'm coming to get you pack your [ __ ] up you're coming home and the wife didn't didn't think too much of it but I said he's coming home and he stayed with us for a while and he got his paychecks and if I'm not mistaken um Cindy got his paychecks and he had so much money a week to live on and we saved it till he hadn't up to where he could get an apartment and stuff like that so I mean she was involved with it at the end when he finally did the turn you know as much as I was you know and which was I'm glad you know and it's just but to sit here and say that I killed him well I said I don't want to use that word because but it is it's what it's what Carlson Rambles on about how he was a strict but caring father who portrayed himself as someone who would never harm their child unfortunately this situation occurs all too often even without a motivation as strong as $700,000 I think that or took his life whatever you want to say took well or took advantage and I don't want to say Advantage like something you got gained from but saw a circumstance where it could be done humanely and quickly and did it because I'll tell you what kyl there's this there's a there's a part of you that's pretty pretty hard it's deep down I don't know what happened to you when do hard I think you can be hard when you have to be and I don't mean that in a bad way I mean there there there's some people in this world that are capable of making very hard decisions and taking hard action there's some people who aren't most people aren't there's 1% of the population can Do's when it's necessary and and that happens in the military it happens right and I think it's I think some of it may be I know you didn't grow up with the best of of situations I me we we went we as hard as we worked we played just as hard we had snowmobiles we raced them we went to Disney World many many times we went to Daytona races we we did a lot but as kids we worked a lot you know and you know and that's just the way we raised you know you work hard you know and if you stepped out of line oh Lord have mercy you got knocked back in but I mean yes the military in my field and in and which no longer exists because ICBM treat that you know you're it's either you live or you die blank it's like being a Navy Feld how do you think they're boot [Music] camp you know and it's so I mean it's you're you're taught to be tough but you're taught you are I can sense it well I can sense it you are I'm I think I've become a softy actually maybe as you get old my daughters have all said that you know I think when you're young you're you know I physically I was probably 50 pounds heavier and I could kick the [ __ ] out of a couple guys at a time you know and that's just blinking an eye I mean but it's like over time you you do suffer you get weaker you know the testosterone isn't running through you like it was when we were joining don't I know it and it's like but it's like you look at life like okay the clock's running now in life you know the time I seen my dad die of cancer and my mom's now well and it's like so it's like now it's like you know over the last six eight years it's like all the fighting and bickering it's like what's it all worth you know you better enjoy the time you got and it's partly going to church and stuff but it's like you just look at things differently it's not like you were when you were 20 or 30 when GE you got to make living you gotta provide for your family and you got to do this you got to do that you know so it's you know it's it's been you know I mean yes if I had a tough life yes if I had a good life yes I've got good kids got I me I've got grandkids um and you know this situation with Levi like I say it's well I I I would really appreciate if you tell me what really happened in that garage because I I you and I do something else they happen no I I I would really appreciate if you talk about it and I know K I'll tell you I'll tell you something a little quick Pro here you know what that means yeah a little bit I tell you something you tell me something I had one of my kids once was really sick and you know if I could have helped that suffering I would have taken my life the detective tries to establish a connection with Carlson but it doesn't work killing Levi wasn't meant to be an act of Mercy the only motivation was the money I mean if something like that but the thing is if Levi was turning around I mean but something happened or you wouldn't have had to do it no I didn't do it you know I mean we can go around and around on that we can but and that's what you want to do you can but and it doesn't really make any difference to me which way I mean as far as I understand like I say but but you're not I like it Caryl I don't think you're helping yourself here I think you're trying to but the thing is put on a mask here that's not really you and it's this this is me I mean I am I'm beat I'm tired physically not mentally as much because I can I can deal with the mental stuff well I can tell that Jesus Christ it was like you know but I it's the physical stuff it's the back I mean it's like take screwdrivers put between your vertebraes and have somebody twist them all day long get our AG like [ __ ] use cars thing is though is that I've been kicked by 2500b draft hor threw me through a smock wall I've been beat on kicked on I've been run over by horses i' you know and but it's what I do it's like why does The Ultimate Fighter go in there get his jaw broke his broke and two weeks later he's back in there is because it's him and me with draft horses it's I've always loved him since I was a before kindergartener and I was told myself I was going to have a polling team and I've had the best in the country and I've won many many polls I beat the world record holders I mean I had teams that just were you know most people 99% of the people would never have a team even come close to the the performance they could do you know so I I have nothing to be you know would like to be sorry about I mean the opportunities I've had the jobs I've had and resp responsibilities and yes I wish some tragedies didn't happen and I wish dad and I got I mean Dad and I got a long bad at the end because I finally spoke up for my mother and said Dad we got to get rid of some of the horses and it's like who are you to say because he always said well if it's too much we'll get rid of some and I said why don't we weed them out weed them out get keep a few of the good ones and I think he was starting with a Cancer and it didn't you know I mean who are you to tell him to get rid of his animals well I'm the one that's doing all the taking care of all the bailing hey I took my vacation time to do the farming you know and it was like it's time you know the horses aren't being taken care of well we're not using them hey how you doing we met before think we did a long time I don't think you remember me I work County best County not quite sure don't mind me I just I think I and he feels better if he stands up I I move a lot I met you uh it was within within days of your son's death I that was a that was investigative matter um involving your granddaughter did you ever hear anything about that let me just tell you what I'm here for and then I'll let these guys talk okay I just just drove down time can you can you sit for a couple minutes like talk it's it's t to talk you need me to step out or um yeah I don't don't mind sure I'm not do you I'm going to take notes this is a this is an old case going back to uh November 18th [Music] 2008 you uh remember about a couple days before do you remember what was going on in the life of your grandkids back then not really because um no not really because the kids were Levi would bring them out at times and I know they were in a nasty divorce and you know it was over at that time I believe and but they were you know they were still fighting because Cassie's mothers um I guess as you say if she was your mother-in-law you wish to God you never married your daughter I mean she's after this after that right well I know her will she's you know she's a [ __ ] she should not have kids in her presence and I her and I have had a few little tussles that you don't call your granddaughter a little [ __ ] Carlson hasn't asked what the case involving his granddaughter was about which is an unusual reaction if he doesn't already know well maybe inves said the same thing about you know she is and if she talks God knows everybody in the district has to hear her talk you know she's loud she's obnoxious she's and her family is they live off what did my wife say they're um I don't know like everything's got to be a big scene you know they're just you know what I'm saying there her their son is going through what's her name I don't know she just got remarried again yeah I mean I cover on been in inves County St Poli for it's been since 19 1997 1998 time so got to know all the all the her son has got two kids and and her son her son or her brother who's Cass Cassie's brother Terry's son you don't know made name though I don't the uh because now she's remarried well both Cassie's married remarried too her last name is han han or H Han I think ha un or something like that did anybody ever discuss my investigation with you back a long time ago probably not not that I know of about what we never we never talked to you or Cindy about it because the death of your son momentarily um your granddaughter Electra um was four years old at the time I don't know what that relationship you had with her but she had been molested and there's there was always a belief on Cassie's part that you knew about oh no and it was pretty clear indication that U your son was involved in and no she always believed that you knew about it no if I knew about it and it was him call that he never mentioned any I mean we never knew anything well she believes that she's always believed that get you were aware of that never and then he talked to you about it after because we were coming after him we never knew a thing never knew a thing he never talked to me about it well because we if if you did or didn't it's surely not a crime you know we we don't close out the investigations and you know whether it was him or somebody else we obviously don't know so um I mean was I been pardon me was it founded that she did she go they take her I can't get into all the details I mean was it I guess was it an accusation or was it oh no it was more than an accusation I surely wouldn't be oh I didn't know but no we never because we were seeing the kids actually pretty much every week and a half to every two weeks he he would bring them by or we would get them for the day or they would spend the nights for sometimes two or three nights you know we would have them a lot and nobody ever made us a wiser of what was what was your son you ever any indication of anything like that when growing up ever no use of animals or anything no nothing that would make you ever think anything like that if anything I mean we all his company no because well we all we all see things in our kids well the only thing with him is that he hated school absolutely absolutely hated but I hated school yeah but did you like school no but yeah but there's hating it and there's not liking it and they's hating it because my my son at 17 has frontal Lo in other words if you write the homework assignment on the chalkboard he cannot copy it now how freaking hard is that if you write your name on the chalkboard he cannot put it on a p because his brain doesn't engage it he had to be taught he goes to a school in Rochester he's not tired he's extremely intelligent but he has to be taught to learn his way it's like they say every kid learns a different way well they had to teach him how his brain perceives it and then how to do the work um and now he's High onor I mean it's in a year and a half's time it's remarkable what they've done and he was ready to quit Ros if he hit age to where he could quit he who's that Alex my son and Levi cuz when Levi had the problem in school we did everything the school said we went to the counselors we went to the meetings they said so Alex Goes was going R right Rochester and but to get Alex up there rills had to admit they couldn't teach him get a school to admit they can't teach your kid because by him going up there they have to fit the bill they have to provide transportation so with when we did he um Norman Howard and there's eight kids per class 12 kids per grade only four through 12 no Sports it's a brick building they have a gym and other than that that's it it's a lot of Hands-On school like U computers the touch screens things like that um and he has gone from a kid that got 30s and 40s to high honor because he now knows how to learn it's amazing just is great yeah I've heard good things about that and you have to interview to even get in the place and they want to hear the kid talk as usual Carlson drifts away from the subject as quickly as possible if he had not been directly involved with the issue concerning his granddaughter it is unlikely he had been told what was happening still he could have used this to say he turned the truck over on Levi In the Heat of the Moment after finding out if he was trying to reduce potential charges they want to know if the kid can dedicate himself so after we got Alex in there we seen the turnaround we were like holy [ __ ] was Levi this way you know was he struggling the same way by not learning because we' sit there for four hours after dinner and he couldn't he just the homework went in one ear and not the other but as far as anything like sexual or you know perverted or ex you know learning more about your own body nothing nothing let me let me back up a little here um I'm kind of an outsider to this and I just want to I'm stepping in here to this interview room which I've never been in before ever in my life um I'm really not is I know the other investigators over the last couple months I've met him and worked with a little bit everything okay in here for you today fine yeah I mean I'm all right just you're comfortable no no these guys haven't been abusive to you in any way they haven't threatened you they haven't no they haven't made you feel like you can't leave anything they've been good they've you do know you're you're free I don't I don't want you to make I'm not going to sit here they told me you know rights they've said look if you want a lawyer we can stop if whatever so you know that if you want a lawyer you can yeah they can they've been getting me cups of water they they've been good I'm not going to regarding so they know they made it clear to you because I don't want to they made it clear to you that you can have a lawyer if you want you you want so you do good no they've been good and and it's like well let me let me tell you about but like I say with Levi I I would if you you telling to this is like there some other things I know about that I think some degree may still think that you know a little bit about but anyway no nothing at all he was never abused as a child he was never well you guys had some some issues though oh well I mean let me yeah go ahead let me pi let's talk about some of those issues because I got involved in this case I don't know if you realize this but this this investigation of their has been going on for for several months no I I didn't know again I'm just I'm telling you that I'm telling you the truth on that okay that this isn't something that came overnight um so when I was alerted to it I I've interjected a little bit here and there um got to understand this investigation pretty well don't all the details of it um but I do know that you and Levi had some quite a few confrontations well and his mother so it was the three of us you correct but the ones I'm talking about is I found a couple reports some Sheriff's F reports where you and Levi had almost some almost physical confrontations where the sheriff's Rec called you recall those well he told him one time that I beat him up so bad that he was spit and blood one one was back correct one one the first one was back in 2000 um where he reported you to kill him do you remember that that that's what's on the Shar report no was there do you remember why what was the cause of the anger I don't even he was probably like 13 14 years old I don't know was he outrageous punk in in your family he was one that he would lie steal he stole $3 $400 from his sister and wouldn't admit it wouldn't admit it while the school's saying why Levi got all these dollar bills and he's handing them out to everybody right my daughter worked as a waitress what she work as which daughter Connie's Diner uh Aon my oldest my ex-wife to be used to work there my youngest daughter Katie worked there and so all a sudden the teachers call and say geesus believei is passing around a lot of money and so it's like okay so he come home and aon's like P because all her money's Messing and it's all mostly $1 Bel so he wouldn't say nothing so I set him in a chair in the living room and I said we're going to sit here to you tell me what you did with m i says I know you got it I know you spent it and you've been giving it to kids at school finally he come clean and I didn't punish him I said you're going to have to tell your sister you took her money that killed him that that just bom out of the water and so he had to go in and tell his sister he took his money and so it was her choice of what was to be done you know he had to earn it get it back and uh but he admitted it there's times he admitted or told him that I beat the hell out of him so bad he was spitting up blood and my wife left to go to a to go because she couldn't take it anymore and I'm like come on what woman is going to let their son get the [ __ ] kicked out I'm bleeding all over and he lied about it he admitted to it and uh she was in a casino the whole day with her aunts and her sister Carlson admits to becoming violent when disciplining Levi but doesn't see how this could make it easy to believe he would take his son's life taken their nephew as his birthday they were going to take him up to his casino but he wasn't old enough or something and U so that was one occasion there's another one where he um called her called the ex white or Cindy e with and something else she called me and said geez she wait she called your wife a what Levi called my wife eing blah blah blah how old is he that 16 17 he was put your wife you put all Us and other than that you say he put his wife it sounds like he was not a good kid growing up he wasn't bad he he stay no if I told called my mother oh no that was that would last day well that was his only one time that he ever said that to her and um and what it what it is is he wanted money did you he was out of the house how did you handle when you found that out I was pissed so I but how did you handle it well I called him up and I said what did you just say to your mother was he not Liv in at home no at this time and I said what the hell do you he said well she won't give me my [ __ ] money and she bitching and this and that and I said you will never ever talk to her like that again and I say you're not getting any money well it's it's money that we had saved for him in a savings account and when he left we went to the we we were putting him on the pins program and all that we had uh he had a officer probation officer or something in the county and Cindy talked to him and said look if he leaves don't get him a d make him struggle and make him realize that it's not fun on the outside world and he had quit quit school and all his couple of his buddies quit school so he wasn't into drugs that I know of you know I I know he smoked marijuana once he told me that oh he smoked marijuana more once I think we both know that well I I mean I know you want to saf the reputation he told me once but I says I know damn well but Carl I know you want to saf guard the reputation of your son as I my children no I'm the realization is oh we we know did you're a son I've done expensive amount of work on him he wasn't that nice of a guy I mean he may have had some qualities that were okay but well the thing is though as far as what he the Dark Side of him there was a dark side of him yeah but I never the only thing I ever saw from him and I'm being honest is that when he wanted money that we saved for him in the county said did you ever steal from your sister did I ever steal from my S she was a little girl she didn't did you steal from your brothers I think when I was in kindergarten yeah you steal $300 when you know oh my God no right they didn't have it but if they didn't I stole it they would beat me to death those behaviors at a young age well he was he was 16 that's what I'm saying but those behaviors aren't learn behaviors sometimes you're just genetically predisposed to be like no I I never sto because if if my father found out I doubt your your your wife again your deceased wife the mother of I doubt she was like that oh no but sometimes to come together and make a human being that have some issues I think Levi he's considerably different than the rest of your family everything I've studied I don't see any similar between you and him I don't see any similar he got into the gothic trip because of Cassie Kathy was into goth The Goth goth well the black nails and it's like he started stealing long before he got into the go oh yeah he would well he was stealing he was doing drugs before for well when he was at home he wasn't doing drugs that we knew right you know but he left when he had just turned 17 or something right and um he stole the money other than that if he stole anything it'd be loose money that you know dollar here from us that I knew of you imagine from your father if your father was like my father he have kicked your ass to the Moon he wouldn't have wasted a bullet on you because he would have beat you that's my point that I'm saying yeah and realization the point we' already been through the child protective enough to where I'm not here going to tell you I'm not going to lie to you and tell you that I had a love affair with your son Levi I'm not telling you that Levi was a great kid so I'm gonna I'm not saying is that we knew that if I laid a hand on him which our dce would have beat us to death CPS is gonna have me by the balls because in today's world and but even back when he was doing it because he turned Us in he turned Us in he turned us in and it's like so now I can't and I many times there wasn't a lot of love lost between Carlson and Levi the money was the motive but the strained relationship made it easier for Carlson to go through with the murder and every time CPS com like the wife had a nervous breakdown C had a nervous breakdown she between you and I she pissed her pants and kitchen floor she just break she couldn't take it anymore you know the family's all had to be hard on it's hard on all of us and it's like even his sisters you know because he was different but he was all his buddies dressed a lot the same way you know he was in that group and that group was all like him quitting school you know yeah they were doing drugs did I he told me once he was he smoked marijuana um but I know better than that I knew the kids he was hanging with you know I'm not stupid and um every time he turned us sin it was proven not guilty every time you know every time yeah still report on your record there and I says you know it's not fair that we get accused of something it stays on our record and he gets to walk home clean because he lied and they said well that's the system and um there was one time that he grabbed me I grabbed him we never punched we just had a hold of each other I just got him out of the hospital with back surgery and and he had called his mother everything under the son and uh so I called him and he he had just left our house I was up in the barn and so he come back and I says what did you tell her and he got all defensive and got in my face and started you know pushing me back a little well here I just had back surgery so I grab a hold of him and we never punched you know and it it ended and I said well don't come back how old was he then 17 17 and a half and I said look I says you're done out of the house don't come back till you're ready and and then you know but off and on the next couple years you know I mean I was one that I knew he was struggling as a kid you know and it's like I would slip him a little money he'd come out and help he finally came back he apologized but still the damage is done you know and he would come out and I say you forgive but you don't forget right you never forget your kid how can you kind like they would marriage too right yeah but I mean you can't I mean a spouse does something to you if a spouse had an affair on you you could you could forgive but nobody's gonna forgive no you never do and and so it's like you know so we sit there and him and I talked and I said look he says you know I'll help you get a job I was running him when his car broke down I was getting up at three in the morning to take him and his wife to their jobs over on the east side of Cana i' come back go to work go back in the afternoon and pick them up I mean I was running all over with them and it was like it's not because I wanted to it's because he needed the help and then finally they divorced and you know he was still coming out to he was coming out to the house a little more and um probably for money but I'd give him like 10 bucks or you know I'd give him enough mainly for gas to come out and help me do things and then finally he um he tried getting into Guardian glass and they would wouldn't even look at and I've been there from day before day one started and um so we we talked and they're at the office they're like well would you recommend your son I says no and he's like he couldn't understand why he didn't get hired he says well you got to pull the earrings out of your ears you got to pull them out of every other part you got I says because it's 3,000 degree heat I says what they do they take kids like you with earrings they take you up to the hot furnace make you stand on top for about a minute you can't touch your earrings because they're so hot so and I says plus you know you look like hell he goes well they can't they can't not hire me because of my earrings I said they're not going to give you that excuse why they don't hire you but looks are everything if you look like a freaking young [ __ ] and an ass they're not going to hire you they're not going to spend the money in training you to run Million dooll computers to pack last and so he finally started changing his ways and was doing better and I says all right go down and put an application in and I'll talk to him and I did and I put my reputation on the line which at that time I was almost like God down there you know I mean I run every piece of equipment I knew every Department I trained almost everybody in the building Carlson has an extremely high opinion of himself that does does not match how friends and co-workers view him and it's like and I said they were like what are you going to V for and I says yeah and I told Lea I says if you ever not show up for work even if you're sick have them send you homesick if you're [ __ ] or puking whatever you come to work let them make the decision because we had a hospital room in there I said let them make the decision that way you can show him you really want to work and he did how long did he work there for two years up to the day of his death yeah he wasy there Y and he was doing fantastic fantastic you know I mean he saved them millions he found a defect in some of the glass and our lasers that are worth millions of dollars couldn't pick it up but he luckily saw it yeah it was like I've been out of there for like two years now two and a half because I'm 100 declared 100% disabled I've got a very expensive computer in me and batteries and and made your run faster no it just makes you take more drugs it's I got wires that go from my brain to my spinal cord I've got they've just did the God knows how many surgeries in my shoulder um so it's it's tough I've only been talking to these guys for the last few days expensively about this whole investigation and maybe while I'm talking was clear up some things um I was just talking investigator Crowley out there why J was in here with you and I just got here was hoping maybe time was asking me maybe I could talk to you so I'm going to set aside what I originally came to talk about um there's kind of a chronological that investigator Crowley and I'll call him Tom because I know about Tom okay okay proba you talk like that but Tom was telling me um about a fire with your first wife that concerned up back in what year was that 90 1990 um December 31st or January January 1 1 yeah of of 9 or 91 Maybe 91 I think 91 okay so that fire caused the death of your wife correct right and the fire according him it started because you spilled kerosene in front of the bathroom the dog and the wife did the dog and wife she carried kerosene in for the kerosene heaters we had oh so They Carried kerosene in for the kerosene heaters right and the kerosene jug was there we had a donation puff so you had a kerosene heater in the house and They Carried this in and they set it and set there well the dog tipped it over and it went so what kind of what kind of it just a plastic jug like a a bucket no the regular like a gas can bucket like ging with a spout on it with a spout on yeah those plastic ones so it's full of what five gallons five gallons of kerosene and the dog granted bump it over took that over and this was like so you were heating with a kerosene heater and that's what why she brought the kerosene in right and um because it was an old child Hall turned into a hle and um and out there I mean granted Winters aren't cold but they're they're um a [ __ ] you know because the houses aren't insulated like we are here and the house got cold so we used the kerosene heater because we had a wood stove going but I didn't like it you know we only burned it when we were out in the living room or we're right there and um somehow the dog I don't know I was at work dog tipped it over and it spell I don't know so the dog tipped the car was that how the fire started no that's it spilled and then the fire never happened for like three two weeks maybe so two week two weeks after the car spill right and how did how did that spill happen two weeks prior to the day of the fire so if the fire was on January 1st it was like two or three I mean two or three weeks or ex I don't know the exact date but two or three weeks prior to kerosene spills and we cleaned it all up I mean we soaked I thought the kerosene caused the fire so now this I'm just learning so two or three weeks beforehand it spills five gallons wall over the floor uh it was probably the majority of it I guess so so good a good percentage yeah oh yeah so a few gallons spilled yeah I mean it was a big spot because it was under the hallway it was in the laundry room and she um took the clothes she just grabbed clothes to soak it up in a hurry my wife okay and then she let to threw the clothes outside so then she brought them back in I don't know when I know I know she tried washing them well she tried washing them in what in the dis in the Lund in the wash machine okay to get you know because they were good clothes and the washing machine's located right right where the spill was okay and so she tried clean did you cut was it carpet or lenol FL um I think it was in there and the hallway was carpet oh so the hallway was carpet yeah so so the kosene was soaked down the carpet right and then it soaked down through the floor joy of the house and the it it soaked underneath everything even though she cleaned it up I did somebody drop a cigarette or masik started the fire no I mean I wasn't in the house when the fire started I was down in the barn there was a barn well what caused the fire they never really the only thing they aimed is because she had a load of clothes in the dryer and that was a a gas dry you said yes your shirt's gas electric D is not going to start curing on fire no and but I also so you think the flam from the gas I was but I was also working up in the attic that day in the house yeah Carlson claims he wasn't in the house when the fire started but had been in and out all day it would have been easy to drop something that would start a fire quickly uh because there's a could have something dropped like a light I had a trouble light they found down the floor oh so you think maybe that trouble light fell down they CH you know so I don't I was there an open ceiling that could have fallen down through the the ho it was on the floor yeah no but I mean when you were up in the attic working was there drywall up there no no what was the ceiling made out of it um um just flat PL or rough cut wood yeah it was but you don't think your light could have fallen down too and caused it was on the floor so I don't know if oh right exactly where the fire start right where the F right where the fire was is where the light was so you must have been it must been scared hell you up that TR in the Flames well I was yeah but at the time I wasn't in the house well I had been there was a duck work that ran like a return system that was over the wood stove went back in the house because I used to do heating and air conditioning and they had an inline blower right I know what there is all right it didn't work okay so we were trying to get rid of the freaking kerosene because it just stuck I bet you really St just going a few Gall on the floor he had to leave the windows open right so what I did is I said well I went up and I didn't realize it had a blower because we were renting the house so I took the blower out and tried to re wire it tried to get it all back together and working and it worked and it didn't it worked and it didn't so I went back out to get more parts and fix different things running down to the shop because we lived like 10 minutes from the shop that my father-in-law right okay and um oh his business was out there in California yeah I went out there to work for him oh okay what kind of business he heating air conditioning custom so you you were gone you weren't even home in the fire sh you were down at his I was I was the barn which is like 200 yards away a big like Workshop Barn it's like 200 yards away and um and um so when I I had been running back and forth down there to get parts and trying to get this thing to work because of the kerosene SM you couldn't handle it so you're inside the barn working so I'm inside the barn working because there's a workbench and all that other stuff right and uh all I heard was my middle name what's calling your middle my wife was and I look out what what's your middle name hoger Believe It or Not hoger M what she's calling well she was saying my full name but it it stuck out she called my middle name so she saying Carl yeah and I'm like did you say it once or twice or once I and you're like 200 yards away and I'm like and but it was loud I mean she was screaming and I'm like something's wrong what is this at night time or in the day my kids were napping because it was New Year's Day we were gonna have a big whoyd thing at my father-in-law's and uh now your wife was drunk that they was that said you know that's what they said the the um I thought uh no the investigators the fire oh was fire there's no criminal your wife was s with your kids right is that correct well she was in the bathroom she took a bath she was taking her ball bath and that take ball bath at 2:00 afternoon we were going to the party so she was getting dressed but she wanted to take a bath since the kids were sleeping and and uh she did that now and then if the kids were sleeping she'd go in and get her book and or her Bible and you know sit in the tub and just chill out because she didn't work fulltime she didn't work at all and um so um we ended up um was that a nice big r pool type B no it was a norm my wife was very small she was only 410 I mean she was as big as a fifth grader right um and um but she liked her bath she liked her bubble bath oh yeah yeah know it was just her time away from the kids right so the kids are sleeping she Gob and you'd run down your F La yeah I and then you were back working in the sh yeah in the sh and you say it's about 600t away about 200 yards yeah it was a long ways away and were you inside the building or outside the building well right at the opening sort of there's work there was a workbench so the doors were open so you hear her yelling car I hear yelling was she yelling she was yelling out the window for you no she I could just hear her yelling and I'm like what the hell and I go out and I see smoke so I go running out and she yelled one more time and the window was right there because I see the house is it had these windows that were bigger than that and there was two of them side by side for every room and they slid in the wall to open it it was weird yeah never seen they were retractable type and they would go inside the the wall and so I the porch was right there so I jump on the porch and it was screen window so I hit the screen and broke the window and all of a sudden all it was was Smoke well right it must have been burning because the house was like 80 to 100 feet long it it used to be an old gold miner ch child Hall and it was built on stones and it was a really really long long house and um so you grabbed your kids out when they open the window so what I what happened is when the W when I blew broke the window I got hit with a fireball they got a movie like that what was that movie um wasn't a famous movie we got a figh ball the f I I know what you're saying yeah you see it coming and it was like motion it looked like the sun coming at you with flame shooting over it it took Mar in the face blew me off the front porch burnt my eyelids together burnt the skin off my face burn my mustache any whiskers I had hair I look like [ __ ] they take at hospital oh yeah what hospital did you go to um I don't even know a local hospital right yeah it well it was snor there really was no local hospital so how did your kids get out if you were well I ended up I got back up and I pulled my skin CU I couldn't see and and it you know sure tore the eyelid open and I got back over to the window and I'm ducking down and all I could feel was my son's hair so I grabbed him right by the hair what room were you did you reach into right in his on the front porch the one I broke Alo he to be standing right there he went from his bed to the window and that fired him coming bir no because then then it started burning upward because it got the air in and so then so it wasn't burning over towards that way once Fire Light anything no it just came through because I think it got the whip of air or whatever yeah I don't know how I'm not a fire guy so I got him out took him to the truck and went around the other end of the house and opened got the window open and yelled to my daughters do me a favor so I understand this if the house is long is it rect Ang it's just yeah like that right mm where where's the front door and porch can you draw that on there front because I'm really Notch there's like a big sliding window here and another one here let's so let me just dark SL s SW for sliding window and then this is the walking door okay and just put the door which way open put a little line and then so let me just cck the door open in inward like this way yeah yeah that like that correct that's the door that's the front door on the porch Y and then it's like his bedroom was like there and then there's a doorway that can you just draw the rooms how the rooms were ored the house so I can understand I got you there his room and there was like a bathroom there whose room is this this is Levi's his own bedroom yes okay and then there's a door there that you're a better dress than I am and then there was like I think closet there sort of weird it came down the hall r have to scale had it it was like a built-in table it's weird it was almost like sitting at a restaurant we had a table then there was a bench that went like this so you could sit on the seats can you just write table I know what is Carlson is so caught up in telling his story that he hasn't bothered to wonder why the detective would be interested in the death of his first wife a wood stove and then and this was all living so can you just put in where the windows where they were or in the house just kind of do a little box like you there but maybe little boxes this one here windows that slid they were connected but they slid into the walls you just take it that way and that way I know there was one over here somewhere and this had an outside door these were just big single windows and they slid into the wall by themselves put a W for window so I know and they but they were like you know six feet wide so was there what was there a window in the back there was one that was like extremely extremely extremely small that you couldn't threw you could might have thrown a a year old out but that's it I mean it was it was small so when you you hear the fire I'm down there's a barn way down so you're over here and you you come up you don't hear the fire you hear I hear her I hear her voice I hear her yelling Carl hoger Carl Carl hoger Carl hoger so you come up you come up on this porch here I come up to the porch because I was going to go in there but I couldn't even see through the glass there was a glass door so you didn't open the door here I didn't open the door his window was right there so I just punched the screen and then and then you get hit with a Flash and Levi he he was right there he was right so you come back you peel your eyes open you got thrown backwards you said oh right right off the porch thrown off the porch with the explosion and then when you came back you where was Levi in the room can you put a little X and put Levi so that's so Le so Levi's right here yeah so I just grabbed him right by the hair and I mean he was fine no no go ahead you know he was fine um no injuries no Burns nothing no You Yank him out you put it set put him up in the driveways right here and I put him right in the front seat of the truck okay and then I ran around the house to this window and um dug through the screen and slid the windows open those two butt together so your actions are you came from this way here yep to there to here up on the porch right up on the porch I'm going to put K okay and then you leave here and you go here why don't you drw just well then I left here went to the truck what did you do with the truck the truck's right here in the driveway put Lei in okay and then I came from the truck over this way and got the girls and I went back to the truck how did you get the girls out the window they jumped out the window yeah they came they crawled over to me oh okay so they crawled over and and then where did you go then I came back to the truck why don't you draw that don't have any miscommunication then back to the truck you took them back all way truck went to the truck so this continues and then I left went back around the whole house house cuz I thought all right she's got to be in the back porch well she was I thought she said she was in the back right but I didn't know I figured she's an adult she's going to be able to get out of the house I'm getting I'm doing I'm doing exactly what she told me to do which was Carl get the kids and then when I got the kids she how come you didn't look in this window for to see if she's because it's too high it's like 8 feet 10 feet in the air you can back your truck up to it or well because I'm figuring I'm going to run around the house and see her I'm not figuring that she's no this one's 8 10t in the air and these ones are right at the ground level no this house is up on SPS right so the floor is like 3 foot up in the air so those windows I could barely this window was like this high but your girls knew to come to you must have been calling I was and so I opened up the window and they crawled over the beds and stuff got to me now your wife was found bed in this B I understand yeah she was but why didn't she put her head out the window and all it was all boarded up because the whole wall was WRA we had boarded it up ways before what do you mean you boarded it up we boarded it up because it wasn't any good you the wall up that window that little window because there how did you board it upwood plywood and screws or nails or just a couple Nails because when we got the place so when did you you boarded that up a day before months months before months before months before you sure it was months I know it was months it wasn't days or weeks no cuz I mean that would be yeah somebody I mean I'm just telling from my point believe so when you say months how many months would you say beforeand it's got to be a month or so maybe a month and a half I not longer than a month and a half though months or not not like seven or eight months no no no okay and um and she had told all her her sort of godmother whatever and you know the the house what we the house was built back in the 182s or 30s it was a gold miners JW Hall I got you it was older than ship so what the people allowed us to do she knew the people that owned it and they lived in the Bay Area they said look if you go in and fix it up we won't charge your rent get it cleaned up get it livable and then we'll figure out some kind of rent payment so they basically paid me to I insulated it I you know was reworking it fixing Windows fixing doors we ripped out floors put new walls in you know painted it there's a now time was some it was an insurance policy that was a bit of a confusion well I had Insurance on her and on the girls or the kids and they paid on it I mean it was in it was a actually it was on WE Insurance on me too I who was the insurance to oh God I don't know it's been so long now who who took out the insurance policy you her and I did and you took it out to you went to a private company for yeah we went through an insurance agency and did you take insurance on yourself too yeah and a recent insurance policy a supposedly accidental kerosene spill and a boarded up window should have warranted a thorough investigation somehow Carlson managed to walk away with minimal scrutiny but after the death of the horse and his son some similarities are more than a little concerning I just wanted to let you know real quick that my merch shop stranger.com has a ton of quality and unique designs that you can purchase right now and by doing so support the channel at the same time items like the architect and the interrogator hoodies the mentally checked out and the stranger t-shirts the do not cross mug and the allseeing beanie are all there and available check out these and other items I have to offer on Stranger label.com and don't forget to use code stranger 15 to get an extra 15% off your entire order and with that out of the way let's get back to the case how long prior to the fire was it a day a week it was no it was it was a month or so easily because we had to have our physicals and all that which I think they did do and um but it was a retirement wait you wait let me you had that physical yeah yeah who who did the physicals they had one of those Home Health Care nurses I believe and they came out and did the physical yeah I'm pretty sure they came out I don't think we went anywhere how much value did you have on yourself 200 on her 200 on me 200,000 yeah and then 50 I think it was 50 on each one of the kids which they recommended because I don't know why oh because I think they could borrow from it for I think it was one of those College was this a term life or whole life or universal life I don't know I don't know was it like an investment plan along yeah I mean it was like a retirement type thing too was this with like an all state or a State Farm or a one of the big companies like that it was a bigger company yes it wasn't a rinky dink little place um I don't know who I I don't know who it was my memory is not the best I mean it great I tell you did great draw the picture well it's not to scale by but it's just it's like I told them I've have been on methadone and every other kind of drug with my back for years and years and years and it's my my kids and there anybody who knows me about sh my memory and what it is now in two hours from now is and I'm tired and I need my drugs I say well I mean I I know you're not a drinker right no don't drink and don't smoke man I tried drinking one beer once with my medicine never do it again I was never so sick in all my life I'd like to just finish clarifying things here um this fire the death of your wife uh when did your wife find out about the insurance policy that you took it out on her she she was with me she was with you yeah she everybody was um you know who the agent was out there at the time was it a local agent you drove down there you had was it somebody in the neighborhood was it somebody 200 miles away I think I haven't got the record right was it somebody that was recommended by your father law yeah because it was somebody everybody knew because we didn't know you know we' moved out there and so he was a local agent that everybody knew yeah I think he was yeah probably still in business then isn't he I don't know he was an older gentleman you know but the firm I guess would probably be there I know I got paperwork at home oh you do I I should have on it at your house here yeah in on your Farm Road you kept the paperwork on that I because yeah stuff that they had sent me after she died and all that stuff because everything everything we had paper- wise burned up in the house you sure somean ever do an interview with you because typically insurance company they never did an interview with you with lawyers and stuff because typically on a payout of insurance they do an extensive not a thing it was ruled accidental boom boom boom and then there was some lawsuits over to and I well I had a lawsuit brought on me by the owners of the home right was that when the statements were taken top you had to take statements front of a lawyer or something yeah I had they wanted depositions so depositions I had to did you have to read them over and sign them and all that stuff they they type them all up and make it say this is what you said and so forth no because I think we my lawyer told him to go screw themselves because I had I went to um Bailey was it Bond Bond McDonald in Geneva and they recommended a law firm out California because they're not certified in California sure right exactly so I had to hire another freaking lawyers and I flew out there once and met with them we did part of the interview and um my lawyer basically got in a big fight with their lawyer and we settled out of court because the lawyer Bond McDonald said look you're paying us you're paying them you're paying their the lawyers out there you're going to lose no matter what you're going to lose in lawyer fees what they we finally got them down to what I he didn't pay much Mone right out of the two 210,000 or something I paid 65,000 um I mean I bought a house you paid 65,000 to the owners of the home to rebuild that house no they didn't rebuild the house so but they paid they took 65,000 and the lawyers took how much whatever God I had to put down I think it was like 8,000 for the first for these guys and so 65,000 I probably spent over 100,000 on the home or on the lawyer case Okay so 65,000 went to the homeowners and another roughly 35,000 went the lawyer fees it had to be close plus the the tickets going out and the lawyers out there cost me a lot so out of the did you get just over 200,000 like 210,000 212 I think because they paid interest but so you got right away Tom said right no it was a year later so a year later you get 22,000 and then I bought a house for 65,000 from my brother you bought your parents place to that no no no no Carlson went through the insurance money fairly quickly most of the expenditures such as a new home and legal fees were reasonable and not enough to raise any red flags you bought a house here for your parents house I bought the house from them when I sold this house later on but I bought that house um I bought a truck um you know pickup and um but I ended up pretty much broke um because 200,000 100,000 away I bought the house but then we had no clothes we had no Furnishings right we had nothing yeah's a lot of stuff that I mean I had to supply a whole house then plus your living because I didn't work for a while I had to have a job and then paying everybody back that I borrowed money from because I borrowed money to live on because where did you live out in California after the house burned out did you stay with your mother and father-in-law yeah I stayed with my father-in-law how long you stay there for a few months before like 10 days my my brother and my sister-in-law come out so 10 days you already you just had right out of California came right back it was their decision whose decision my brother they come out with tickets which brother is that Mike so Mike came back Mike and my sister-in-law Jackie and so Mike and Jackie came out they come out my dad wanted to come out was Jackie and Mike were they are they close you not anymore were they back then yeah yeah but they come out was Jackie and your wife close my first wife oh yeah very close very close and um so they didn't want you in California anymore they wanted you to come back dad was I don't know if you ever knew my dad never knew County Highway supervisor I've heard that he was a tough old son of a [ __ ] and he's like you want me to come out there and he was sort of like he's going to kick everybody's ass or you know just being the and I'm like you know I'm burnt I'm tired I'm hurt I'm wearing clothes from everybody that has donated them and somebody took the kids I didn't see the kids for two or three days really yeah because I was a wreck what did you do what did you do when your brother and sisterinlaw came home right I mean you where did you sit did you sit around the house or I laid on the C couch folded into a bed and I slept on it for two days and you stayed right there until a minute you came back to New York or did you finally get up and do anything no I Stay right there yes you get the I mean I went we had Cham all that stuff and everything else but I just that was it I was I mean I was trying to heal up myself but I was a freaking trainer I mean I lost everything so Mike and Jackie they come out they came out and they just came out to console you they didn't come out to visit California they come out to haul my ass back they weren going coming out S no they were coming they were coming out you're coming home that's what I was told that's it have nothing to say about you spend any good time with Al oh no no no that have been a tough down in life it sucked still sucks sure I I imagine can't I mean because Levi a lot of his problems is lost your mother right he he lost his mom and the world ow him one and somebody better give him one I put him in counseling from the time we got back I went to counseling with him and he he had a chip on his shoulder and he wouldn't let go of it Levi always believed that his father killed his mother he and his sisters watched him as he stood there and watched the House burn without trying to do anything to save Christine Thomas and was some of his concerns he was telling me tonight is that there was some other fires like a car fire you had and barn fire cow something yeah I had a barn but they proved that that was um what what was the barn put yeah it um it ended up being the barn had cloth wiring in it really made out of cloth yeah wow it was like back from God knows when and you know it was the old handu beams and those are tough old beam too and one of the beams was completely burnt through really I can't I've never SE burn they burned it right through huh burned it right through the electric you and so well the fire department they come in and you know barn fire normally electric and and U and I told him I said well my dad and I we got electric on in the barn with radios on for because we wean the coals when we raised beling direct horses at the time oh yeah when you wean them you take all the radios you got you turn them up on full BL a because the babies are going to win you all night long and if mommy Hears A winning him Mommy's going to break through every fence to get to him H I never oh I mean well just you took their babies so how many how many of the horses were in the bar we had four total three babies and a big Mar and the big man was in there to I'm sorry four babies four three babies three babies one big one and you got the radio up you think that caused the F radio no um because it happened in the old part of the barn where the babies were it was all new box stalls new wiring new breaker box and everything where the fire happened it was down in the barn fire there was this a daytime fire or night time night time what a passing car see as they were driving by a State Trooper when I come out of the house State tro I didn't know that when I come out of the house a State Trooper was coming down the road did the state troopers call you and that's how you got no I I heard a crackling like a fire firecracker popping out yeah I mean I don't sleep much anyways so you hear to pop pop pop what time of night is it I don't know it's at night it's after midnight and um um so you wake up to the sound of I wake up and I see a little orange glow in the yard and I think that's that's awful got a first floor then second floor of my house and you can see the yard from your yeah from out just out my window oh so you got up out of bed as so I got out of my bed and I'm like man it's awful bright light so I went downstairs and all a sudden it's like I see the barn I see the the glow in the snow from the barard out in the barnyard on the opposite side of the barn say right and so I go running out at that time the trooper pulls in and um I went around and opened the barn door and it was nothing but smoke I mean you couldn't get near the place the heat but the fire department figures because where the fire started where it burnt through that Oak beam was completely burned in two how how long do you think the fire was burning before you got up out of bed to go see it it had to be bured a long time to burn through I meanig smolder when you say a long time hours it's going to be hours so that figh was burn hours before you got out of bed well they figured because did Cindy wake up and hear it or anything no you think she may to get up and start the player no no no how do you know she hated the bar how do you know she didn't going start the player there's no reason for Cindy was already upset the the expensive horse Carlson insisted on buying wouldn't produce any Offspring things were tight financially and she saw the purchase as a foolish waste of money when Carlson calmly came to tell her the barn was on fire she was suspicious of his unusual reaction and the convenient timing there's no reason for any of us to but according to time there was a large insurance policy on that also 6 I got was 60,000 oh really you think 60,000 was total on the whole thing yeah including animals and contest everything dad had Machinery in it he had some insurance that he got all I got was 60,000 that was with Oh I thought he said it was like 100,000 you like the animals insured for like 30,000 no I had one animal insured for 20 she was the largest mayor in the world 3,200 lb never one like so you one expensive horse how much how much was that horse worth realistically she's probably worth about 80 to $100,000 so you had a weight underinsured oh I I didn't pay quite what I had her insured for so you paid like what 189 18,000 you P for and but I buy and sell drafts I used to we used to raise them I us horses burn up in the fire too that that was her no I thought I thought he said it was like 2,000 on one horse and 5,000 on two others or 10,000 on two others oh no the other ones had 5,000 each but they only paid like 1500 oh so you only got well this is the argument I got in I lost all my harnesses so you got 60,000 for the barn for everything that includes the two horses everything that's the horse and the bar everything equipment tools F Machinery harnesses how long had that barn and horses been insured for I had insured all long for years yeah okay because I thought Tom said I thought Tom said you recently had transferred the insurance over from some tin silos or something over to the bar well we what we did is that Dad owned the place I bought the farm from Dad Dad had insurance on the grain bins they're metal grain bins sure they don't burn do they why spend the money I'm paying the premium why spend the money you know I had a we bought the home we had an insurance company come out and say okay I want to redo the policy because I'm not insuring these stupid grain beds when you put them full of grain then you ensure the the what's in them the contents right they don't an ingrain B never SE one start on fire without anything in it no and that's yeah they're empty we had been farming gr what do you do like put cows and stuff and those things no you put crop grein right but I mean if they're empty you got to do something else with I don't put I now when I was Raising Ducks I put the baby ducks in there okay because protected them from the wind the rain they were on cement he's take care of but it's like I'm not spending money on uring a grain bin that's made out of metal a hurricane comes up or so what happened you canel it so I canceled that and they said well you're way underinsured on this and this and this and this so they told you were underinsured on the bar oh yeah I only had like $5,000 on the barn I said what can I do if you know cuz we had just bought the house we up the something insurance on the house and um but no what you insure it for what you pay insurance on different doesn't mean that's not no I understand that's not what you're going to get no because and my argument was if I Ure this for $5,000 and you're taking my premium why can't you cover that and they said no it doesn't work that way then why do you take my money if you're not going to insure pay for that right they only pay what they think the value so so go ahead what happens is when do you put the insurance on the barns how long prior to the fire it was three months four months so the barnfire do you remember I don't when was that I 2002 [Music] 200 around the 2002 time frame right something like that yeah and it happens at night after midnight Y and you're sure Cy was sleeping yes positive yeah well when I got back in she was awake because I got up when did she wake up you remember when I got back into the bed when what you mean when you got back into bed cuz I got out of bed to look out the window and then you went back into bed yeah I went down the basement in the wood you looked out of the window out the I got up let me I'm missing this stuff here I got up went to the bathroom went down we had a wig sto went down stoked it up came back into bed hours later that's when I woke up seing the glow and then went down okay now you got me to when I come back you're sleeping listen listen you're you're you're sleeping and you get up at what time remember it was probably 11 o'clock midnight May if oh it wasn't even that it was like 11 o'clock or 11:30 get up between 11:00 p.m. and midnight yep went to the bathroom put what on the wood to the bathroom where upstairs is it off your bedroom no it's down the hall went to the bathroom upstairs yep and then you went downstairs went on the wood St down to the basement we had a word burning okay so you put wood in the wood stove and then you yeah she just woke up and asked me what I was doing I said well I put on a wood stove at the bathroom then we went back to bed wait this is so Cindy ask what you're doing you told her you put wood on the wood stove yep so you tell you put wood on the wood stove and then you then what happen you go and then went back to bed fell asleep oh I fell asleep in two seconds you're a s sleeper no no question I fall asleep standing up so you fell asleep how long did you fall asleep for whatever a couple hours or so or better till like 2 o'clock in the morning yeah it was two or three I think on so 2 3 in the morning and then you wake up hearing a crackling it sounded like glass popping you know just a pop like a like almost like a Carlson just said he is a deep sleeper and he was taking strong medication at the time it isn't likely that the sound of a fire outside and that far away from the house would have woken him you know how fire crackles sure something like that sure so that wakes you up and you get up out of bed yep then I seen the glow then I went downstairs and I seen more so I'm like holy [ __ ] I yell up did you tell Cy to call I call 911 she called my brother but you weren't you didn't know that it was not part you went downstairs and then you yelled up for her right okay I said call the I said call 91 call the fire department or something and I says call the brothers because I had five other brothers and um and you yell to S to call the brothers not the fire department well I said call I think call the fire department I knew I had s all fire department and um but they were there within minutes and I mean it wasn't long and then they called another one and another department and another department because the wind was blowing so hard that they just couldn't control it and and it was an old bar it was made out of old army Depot boxes the old like eight foot long my grand my grandfather buil the bar back in the 40s and it was made out of used old freaking to drop this on more and make sure that you use the bath no I really that's healthy stuff you know yeah that'll kill you too so no good I just make so let's so that fire comes and you only receive $60,000 from that whole fire and you had to rebuild a the barn pay for the horses my dad got the check so you surely didn't make up too well on that D I lost everything right for $60,000 I lost everything why did why did they thought you made like 90,000 I don't know I got there's checks to prove it so this big what do you call this big horse the mayor Belgian May Belgian mayor and they they have they make great babies make a lot of money with the baby her because this one had quite a few babies at her no she um had never had a baby because she that make her more valuable she made her little her was 18,000 I I was after her bloodline her dad weighed over 3,000 lb ,000 PB horse is to come natural P big wouldn't even look at it because it's too big they couldn't afford to feed it yeah and the problem is with a horse this big they don't live where did you buy that horse from out in Michigan how did you findy that thing guy advertised it for sale I called him up and I knew him he was a pulling horse guy would you how' you pay him check Cas cash we don't we don't ching ching right you don't write checks no don't want but no nobody wants checks because anybody that deals with I think they have papers are they like a special they're registered so you pay1 18,000 for this horse and how much of that when that thing started giving birth how much is one one baby would have brought me 100,000 and I was going to clone her because that was when they started making it legal to clone really I had a company out in Oklahoma and I could get her cloned for $5,000 they take the DNA they send it out they you you for $5,000 you get a baby horse and the mother they they they put the egg 5,000 bucks get you a hand duplicate they put the egg in a mayor riding horse may or a Belgian whichever you want it's up to you doesn't make a difference because the egg is still the duplicate of this and you get the the mother and the baby a year later for $5,000 and if I would have got a stud from her a boy that Carlson leaves out that the horse was unable to reproduce and was worth more dead than alive could Fortune could have made a fortune because horses don't get that big on their own that whole bloodline what kind of money think you could have made really have one horse and especially well especially because if I got a stud cold out of I can breed him I can sell a seen you're talking 510,000 hours you know out of out of one per sperm injection per sperm injection I can breed 10 mares so the money just multip m i do 50 to $100,000 but the stipulation is if how come you don't follow through with it because you died and a fire we couldn't find a live we couldn't find enough DNA left in her wow because of the fire pissed me off I was serous I mean I was Bing like a baby I mean you dream of finding a horse like that and she was the last May in the bloodline and she has a half brother I had to S over the edge and then sitting there thinking then go through the insurance it's like well your insurance isn't your harnesses aren't covered so you're thinking that horse should have been really insured for like 100,000 yeah and I could have but I never thought I mean I never put her in the barn because she's too big for her to lay down I couldn't put her I didn't know I didn't know horses we're 18 we're worth 18,000 much less 100,000 that's I'm naive on horses a good poing horse is a half a million wow there's a lot of's a lot ofone that business isn't there riding horses if you got a good th bread they can go to millions and millions stud fees they'll pay they'll pay2 $300,000 a whack so when you got the insurance money did you get back in there trying to breed these horses again no I built a barn so you just took the money rebuilt the barn beard built the barns get in the horses again or you done horses I don't I'm done with them now because no money I mean there's tough money the market once the government got away from you couldn't sell horses for dog food because we take the weakest ones the ones are old they're no good they're crippled you sell them to the dog food market so you got your really on yourself no you send them live and they go room and stuff like that turn into dog food but the problem was is that when the government stopped that you had your really good horses your medium horses your middle horses that made a good Amish Workhorse but they weren't fancy then you had your dog food you take the dog food away now everybody drops down in one ladder room so the good working horse now becomes dog food material he's worth what $300 I didn't get you any Workhorse you want it's like you gota be kidding so the top ones if they're extremely good they still bring good money but nothing like what would bring 100,000 might bring 10 the market and we had 54 of them my dad and I and we we bailed out I mean we just you couldn't afford to feed them I mean they're eating 80 pounds a hay a day but I lost my ass let's just cover a couple of the qus of time invention was there one you had a car back in 1996 oh no it was back in 80 86 86 that's I just he just brought he just told me some of stuff so I bought a brand new Dodge Charger 2.2 payments on yeah and um I mean I put money down and everything right and um it was just months old took it back sand was sing gas so you took it back and deal ship all back up to Peter C right and I said we're smelling gas and um they they looked it over couldn't find it it wasn't smelling then so and uh the wife took it to work she used to work parttime at Mackie business products it used to be in Geneva at one Franklin Square and um she smelled so I made more appointments to take it back and I couldn't find it we parked it in it was in the winter we parked it in the snow and you couldn't see anything gas but you could smell the gas when you're driving it down the road sure found out after the car burn how' it burn um driving up the road no it was in my driveway Carlson's history is littered with fires and insurance claims multiple disasters can happen to one person but the lack of variety makes it look like Carlson stuck with a method that worked best for him just sit in there and burned up got home shut it off walked in the house and and uh I went upstairs she yells out the car is on fire no it's not just come home and what part of it was burning the inside of it oh the inside was the front the motor was burning at that point you know the hood and Stu Flames coming out all over Oh I thought time said the the compartment where the passion compartment was on fire no when it got all done the whole car was we by the time the fire department got there we watched the back bunker m now Tom said there was some concerns about because you left the door wide open on the car no I left the hood up so you left the hood up on the car I left the hood up because I could still smell the freaking gas and so when um went in the house why did you leave the hood up because I could smell the gas I just left it went in the house so you were working on the car well I I just come home and it's like I can still smell the freaking gas so you put the hood up not you didn't leave the door open on the car no no and yeah he also said that the fire department report said that you had removed all the contents from it just before the fire no no that's not true no you you seem very truthful when you say that yeah I mean no it's like what how would be in you know whyment would wrote that up on report no I haven't read the I I don't know I mean I don't think I ever talked to anybody really um but no I mean why would you take the stuff work for part like that I used to be back in high school School volunteer fireman for the bar long fir with his experience Carlson has enough knowledge of how to start a fire and Stage it as an accident three four years maybe volunteer firem yeah and I got sick of the bull crap because the newbies have to do the Chrome polishing and the rest of them get to sit in there and drink that's like I don't to drink anymore they'll do that you know come on I mean I went to the rest the oxygen training I went to the classes was there a fire at Guardian glass before he left there yeah what happened with that fire we had a fire out on one of my trains there that the mechanic left a rag on top of the exhaust FL started bad fire no it just singed it you know it was it was burning a little so I grabbed it and the shirt that I had on funnier than M was made of like plastic and it just melted the plastic sleeve anybody get any trouble for oh no I never got a write up nothing El you know the rag and showed them where the rag was there a fire at some gravel pit or something you working at some Stone C you work at Stone C was there fire there a fire there years before I worked there oh okay they had uh um well it was years before he worked it was I guess it was one of the a line Mill plant that got struck by L but no there's now that the detective has touched on several disturbing points in Carlson's path in the next video he will try to get Carlson to admit that he is responsible for multiple tragedies will Carlson confess or will he continue claiming that he is a victim of bad luck thank you for watching check out my patreon link in the description below and drop a like on this video also don't forget to leave a comment I'm always curious to read what you thought of the case