New at noon, the man accused of following orders to torture his teenage brother with special needs leading to his death has pled guilty. Paul Ferguson is charged with first-degree child abuse in the death of his brother, 15-year-old Timothy Ferguson. This comes a week after Paul and Timothy's mother, Shanda Vander Ark, was found guilty in Timothy's murder. And Paul testified against his mother last week, sharing details which included force-feeding Timothy hot sauce and putting him in ice baths for hours at a time. Paul will be sentenced on January 29th. This video contains the interrogation of a man who helped his mother starve his younger brother to death. 15-year-old Timothy Ferguson was one of four brothers and in many ways fell through the cracks created by the oldest and youngest. Timothy was also autistic and had some speech and motor impairments. This made his mother, Shanda Vander, frustrated with the extra effort it took to take care of him. As her resentment built, she began to treat him more and more harshly and enabled the help of one of her other sons, Paul. The two of them subjected Timothy to ice baths, depriving him of sleep and limiting food to hot sauce. They accused Timothy of faking any sign of medical problems and used it as an excuse to punish him more. Paul Ferguson went to check on his brother one morning after forcing him to take a 9-hour ice bath the previous day. Timothy had been placed in a bathroom closet with little clothing. When Paul opened the door, he found Timothy unresponsive. He tried resuscitation, but eventually gave up and called 911. When the medics arrived, they found Timothy dead. He was only 69 lb and his body showed signs of hypothermia and malnutrition. This is a recording device. This is a video where I know there's some cameras in there, but the sound is kind of messed up. Got you. So. I'm going to turn that in to you just in case it helps. Yeah. You came down here with uh officer Stephanie. Is that her name? Yes. How did that kind of all transpire? I don't know how I ended up here. I was too far away. I know that my mother had come and I think down here. Okay. Or something. Maybe it was something in the court or I don't exactly know the full details. Okay. But um She left my stepfather's phone with me. I don't have any access to anything. The only thing that I would be able to do was if the person she's with, I think his name is Steven or Stanley Frank. Stanley? Yes. Thank you. Uh yes, if he could he would contact, I would be able to pick that up, but Okay. Nothing else. Were you supposed to work today or No. So you didn't have work today? No, I've got a couple of days off. Okay. When do you go back? Saturday, Sunday. Okay. It was a morning shift. Are you working two different jobs? Did you say you were working two jobs? No. I used to work two different jobs so you did say that? back in Oklahoma. Okay. Cuz I think your brother was like I don't want to work two jobs. And you're like, mm-mm, then you don't. 4 hours of sleep maximum was a nightmare. That's a joke. That's not even funny, actually. Huh. Um Yeah, 4 hours isn't something that allows you to get anything done. What kind of jobs are you doing that? Fast food. Okay. And I had one before and then after I graduated from an alternative school early, I started the second one that was by my biological father's demands, basically. Okay. Um Have you talked to him at all recently? Biological father. Does he know what's going on or I don't think quite yet. Last time I talked to him was last week. Okay. He uh he and my stepmother uh got a divorce. So they called him and let us know about all that. What's uh What is your relationship like with him? I mean, do you try to disassociate with him at all or not really? Not really. I found out that a lot of what he's told me about my biological mother up here was nothing more than blatant lies. Okay. He said that she didn't care for me. Yeah. She never wanted to see me, which were both lies. It was just He's a control freak. Okay. Labeling his father as a control freak is a pretty harsh assessment from someone who lived with a mother who kept the refrigerator chained closed. Besides that, he's very manipulative. Okay. My stepmother's name was never even on any anything for like paying bills or for school stuff. It was all him. Okay. He was very much Yes. for everything. Yes. So. And uh I know that that night Timothy did eat because we had pizza. He had three slices. Hold on. Hold on. I want to talk to you for just a just a second. Sorry. That's okay. Um I don't want to talk anything specific about the case just yet. But since you since the police showed up at your house and Yeah. they brought you down here, I want to advise you of your rights before we talk about that sort of thing. What I do want you to know though is that we went through the phones, okay? Okay. And we're beginning to go through the phones and there's a lot of evidence in the phones and I know that you're kind of aware of communication between yourself and your mother Yes. and all sorts of things. And that's kind of what I want to talk to you about. Yeah. But um I mean, certainly those are very serious things that you guys were talking about. Yeah. And I mean, from what I saw, it sounds like you're compassionate and that you cared about him and you sent some pictures that were like he's looking too skinny and we we need to feed him and you know There's sometimes you get frustrated, but at the end of the day you kept coming back to like to caring. Yeah. But the end result of that, he passed away, right? And he passed away from not eating food. Yeah. Um so but I I want you to be aware of this stuff, okay? So these are your Miranda rights, right? So you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law. You have the right to talk with an attorney and the right to his presence before or during any questioning. If you cannot afford to hire an attorney, one will be appointed at public expense to represent you before any questioning. Do you understand that? Yes, sir. Okay. Um When we talk about uh let's jump right into it. Yeah. I know that we talked yesterday. Yeah. And I know that not everything that we talked about was the truth yesterday. That's okay. Yeah. You don't have to feel bad. You don't have to feel guilty about not telling the truth to me, okay? I want you to just focus on yourself right now and think about what's best for you. Yeah. And and let's try to get to the truth of what really happened with your brother cuz he deserves that. Um I mean, there's clearly a lot of messages about stuff that you guys were doing with him, about what he was eating, about restricting his food. How did that How did that all work? What was the logic to you? We stopped the food restrictions recently because we had noticed he was thin. We wanted to get that back on. We didn't want any of this. We never wanted him to be injured or hurt. I loved him so much. Yeah. I can tell that. I can certainly tell that. When you say we, is that your mother and Yes, she she loved him. We wanted what's best. Yeah. The thing is, he was stuck in the past. Okay. What's uh so you stopped the food restrictions. When did that kind of happen? Like ball park that one. 2 weeks approximately. We We were hoping that we could get enough where he would be safe and then we could continue to add it back to where we wouldn't have to worry and we could What were the What were the restrictions? We made sure that it was still something that gave him enough calories and everything. We It was rice or bread and like I said last week, he got pizza. Okay. What were the What were they in place for like in the first place? Sneaking food over and over and over. Okay. We We've tried everything. We were nice. We tried different consequences, but he just couldn't ever listen. What were some of the other types of consequences? Like Like prior to the prior to like are we talking like We did take away his devices. Okay. Because that was also because he wouldn't stay on his school sites. He would just go and try and play games or watch YouTube. Okay. But he was the thing is, he should have been held back so much. Yeah. But he passed all of his final exams. And so I don't think it was my step mother. My stepmother was amazing. Yeah. But I believe it was my father's doing. Okay. Helping him pass the exams. Was it all online school? No, we were from back in Oklahoma and he went to public. The thing is, he never really did any of the other work, but when it came to final exams, he had everything he needed to know. So they let him move to the next grade, which was just Right. So You guys lived together back in Oklahoma? Yeah. What was life like back there? Hectic. Okay. My uh my step my step nieces, my stepmother's grandchildren lived with us. Okay. Because of stuff that was going on between your mother and your father. My stepmother had custody. Yeah. Ferguson elaborates on his family's situation, but the detective does not miss the fact that he carefully avoids mentioning the other punishments he and his mother used on Timothy. And we had at that point we were living in a four-bedroom with eight people in the house. Yeah. And Did you share a room with him then? Yeah. That's why and it absolutely smelled because even then you even when he the bathroom was only just a couple feet away, he wouldn't get up and go. Okay. What is that? You kind of told me about yesterday, but you said there was some sort of problem that he had that caused that or Yeah. You don't know what it I don't know. I don't honestly know. I just I that's what I had assumed. Okay. Because it's I'm pretty sure it's been basically his whole life since this been happening. And it's not just that. He's urinating in places that are not normal, like in his closet, in the dressers, Yeah. everything. Okay. He's uh What type of like disorders does he have that you're aware of? I know he has ADHD. I believe he has sensory processing. Okay. Um I was never there for his any sort of autism spectrum test, but from what I've seen, I know that that probably was a thing. I also know he was motor and speech impaired. He couldn't run right and talk right. I think when he was younger he had to have a surgery on his ears to have tubes put in because he has heightened hearing that was very loud noises could be painful. So, too much. Yeah. The fact is that he could hear my mother my stepmother talking with a friend about going to a movie with the TV when it was on really high volume. Oh, cuz one of those sort of pointers. What about you? Are you have any of those sort of things or anything uh I have ADHD. Okay. And I think they said I was diagnosed with sensory processing, but from what my mother has told me that that's it's just no. What is that? I I'm not familiar What's sensory processing? It's basically when you overreact to things. Way too much. Yeah. I guess loud noises and things For Okay. and bright lights are disturbing. For me that's there's not really any of that. The only problems I have is when someone's music has a lot of bass drumming in it. Okay. For me that'll feel like someone is smashing my ribs with a mallet. Okay. That's why I don't hardly listen to music very high if it's got uh bass drums because it hurts. Yeah, that would make sense. Um Did you go to school? Yes, I went to was it the school back in Oklahoma. I graduated from Santa Fe High School. Okay. I still have my high school You remember that diploma? It's standing in my room. Okay. You graduated from high school. What did you do after that? You just Um I think I know that my father had kicked me out after like in I think May 2 years ago or so. So, like 20 May of 20? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. And due to COVID the graduation had been postponed to July. And I had been managed I managed to get my mom's phone number at that point and was able to talk into her and tell her how all of this had happened. Yeah. And I also asked some of the things that about that what dad had told me the whole did he did you really not care? Right. And from what he told and I'm pretty sure it's scientifically impossible that she had her tubes undone for for Gabriel, which from what I'm guessing that's an impossibility, isn't it? Okay. So, he's he's a little he's a little miracle child. Fair enough. He is a blessing to this world. Yeah. Does your mom talk to him about that? Certainly. That he's a blessing. Of course. She loves him so much. Ferguson is adamant that his mother loved Timothy, but her actions proved otherwise. She loved every single one of us, but my dad's controlish freaky nature was just he didn't want her having any contact and screwing up all of his control up. Yeah, okay. And that was the thing back in Oklahoma where I had to I had problems with emotional release. I I was so terrified of him that I didn't ever want to release any of the negative emotions I ever had around him. It was There were times where I wanted to say no, but I was so terrified that I just couldn't. Yeah. Here I can release my anger. And I do it in the right ways. I never do it any in any way that I'm not supposed to. Okay. And if I unintentionally cop an attitude with my mother, I am I realize it and I apologize telling her that I did not mean to, that I just slipped a small amount and then I'm going to go away and do something to calm down. Would there be any sort of consequences from your mom if you slipped up with her attitude wise or how would that work? Um there were times when I would cop an attitude that was unnecessary and she would have me get off devices for maybe 15 minutes cuz usually that was what it was revolved around cuz I I'll be honest, I have a I have an addiction to my devices. Okay. And it's it's not something I can really do without, I guess. I don't know. And I never had not very much of that back in Oklahoma. Yeah. My dad was strict. He didn't even give me a phone. My sis my sister and my step sister had phones before I did. And that was due to the fact that he could not read his mail. Right. And at first he thought my that the ADHD was just ADD because like my mother, I could hyperfocus. Which is actually a symptom of ADHD. Right. And then so now you're in work. And I know we talked yesterday about how you're paying bills and Yeah. And unlike Yeah, and unlike my step my father, she doesn't take force me to give her half of my paycheck. He forced that on me. Yeah. And I was working basically minimum wage. at both. Yeah, that's tough. It was nightmarish. And the thing is that my stepmother didn't even know about that until after I had moved and I had told her. Okay. And she apologized so heavily because she she was just going to want some stuff to help with rent at times. Yeah. And when he sometimes And when he he has to borrow money, he he never paid it back and my mother has paid it back every time. Whether it's in a way like paying for the bike payments for my electronic bike cuz, you know, we put a down payment and then we have to do the consecutive payments for it. Was that your first Would you consider that like your first big purchase on your own? Your electric bike or any purchase of a more expensive thing? More expensive than that? I don't believe so. No. What about PCs? I honestly spent this amount of money on computers or Did you spend this piece together or We spent the amounts because Minecraft is something I I've always loved. Yeah. And cuz for me for the ADHD being able to build and be creative is just something that I absolutely adored. Okay. And I also it also was something that I liked doing for YouTube. I have a YouTube channel myself. It's not popular or anything, but Okay. it is very it's something that I was inspired by from the Preston Plays and the recently passed Technoblade. Okay. So, you come here with mom about 2 years ago. Yeah. And Timothy comes about a year ago. You said I think you said yesterday the same day even, right? Yeah, the same day that I left the house. I I I was I moved here into Michigan I think on the 30th. Okay. Cuz for the time after I had moved out of my parents' house, I stayed with my uncle Gabe in Atlanta. Okay. Who both had actually been tricked by my father to also believe that my mother was bad until she finally managed to clear the air. Yeah. So, you said the same day but a year later. Does that sound right? Yeah, I moved here at a later date, but I moved he was he moved up here on the day I was kicked I basically kicked out. gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. My dad had basically put a timeline like I had to move out by a certain date. With Ferguson's positive view towards his mother, even after everything that happened, it is possible that his opinion of his father isn't entirely accurate. We have my own house and be on my own two feet, which the thing is he never prepared me for any of this. He just any of that. He just Like I said, he was I love him, but most of the respect I have for him is gone. He just So, Timothy comes up here. What's life like immediately when he gets up here? It was good at first. The thing is it this has happened before. Not like moving up from somewhere, but for the whole thing where I think he said in Back in Oklahoma, I think once or twice he had said something being suicidal. Okay. And we had put him in in my mother my stepmother and father agreed on this that he should have he could be institutionalized. Okay. And when he got back the first couple of weeks were good. He didn't misbehave but then after that it just reverted back to what he was doing before. Okay. The destructiveness and everything. What explain that like He It was very dangerous. He would pull the outlet covers off. He would screw the light fixtures. It was Okay. Our house in Edmond was his room there was he pulled the studs out of the wall. Rip off the painting paint and he Okay. It was yeah. Were you able to have a conversation with him like you and I are having a back and forth conversation or he wasn't able to talk like that? Uh He could talk but the thing is that it would mostly be hard to understand. Okay. Because of the speech impairment I think I don't know what that one is. Speech impediment? Yeah, there we go. Okay, that's it. He was in therapy for that and the motor when you up here in No, in Omaha. Do you know if he's been in any therapy or anything up here? Um no. Okay. Do you know if he ever went to the doctor though? Here? Um I don't honestly we never until I don't know we we made it since we had stopped the last hunger strike and managed to get him back to a safe weight. We were we were hoping and praying that he wouldn't need any sort of assistance at that point which he didn't he was he was fine. But then this whole ordeal happened and Right. I honestly feel like we should have taken him to the doctor sooner. We we could have done something but we he was also that this happened it's Yeah. When I mean how long ago do you think probably should have taken him to the doctor? Honestly if I'm going to be honest I'd say the day after the divorce. I want you guys to message about the divorce. The thing is that my mother can't even face my They should have gotten help much earlier for Timothy. If anything about what Ferguson is saying about his behavior is true then they would have benefited from having professional medical assistance. I just released another extremely intense case on my Patreon when a suspect shoots a cop in a police station shows a man driven to desperation from concern for his friend and decides he will use force to get his answers. What happens next is shocking. You can watch that and many more at patreon.com/strangerstoriesplus. So right now we she doesn't want to call him because the one thing that she and I both know is if he's going to hurl every ounce of blame that he can at her. Right. So what's when was the when was that divorce like I don't know. I think it was exactly a week ago today or tomorrow. Something like that. So about a week ago. He's not saying Yeah, we we they I saw on your phone that you had sent a a couple pictures to your mom. Yes. Pretty skinny and you said you know how he is nothing but skin like Yeah, I was I was very concerned. It just Yeah. I Yeah, what do you think then maybe would have been a good time to take him to the doctor or Yeah, honestly that probably would have been one too. Yeah. I don't know. And then you sent a picture of like his legs that were just basically gone right? Yeah. The one where he can't stand or something along the lines of that. Yeah, but the thing is before yesterday and I think the day before he could walk. Yeah. He might need a little support every so often like he put his hand against the wall or grab the rail of the stairs but after a couple of seconds he'd let go and he'd be fine. Okay. It was never anything major. Yeah. When was like the last time he was really like talking to you like able to have a conversation or at least try to have a conversation? Um Last time he actually talked was 3 days ago but the day before or the day after that the day before yesterday He could talk us he talked a small amount in the morning but then All of the warning signs were there. Ferguson saw them but chose to do nothing. He just sort of was making groans and moans and it concerned me. I was as my mother was driving me to work I I recommended that maybe we should take him to the hospital. Okay. I'm not sure if that ever happened or not. I What did she say what did she say about that when you when you made that recommendation? I I don't know. I think after that I think that was like as I was getting out of the car and shutting the door at So we're talking so today's the 7th yesterday the 6th. What day are we talking about the last time he was really kind of talking outside of the morning room? The 5th. He talked some in the morning. He was responsive. Yeah. That much I know. What's the what's the photograph in the bathtub of his face like zoomed in on his face? Uh he he he'd been taking a bath. Okay. And I went in there to check on him at one point and he's just kind of laying there. I'm like bud you okay? He didn't respond but he was looking around so and he was breathing I know that much. Yeah. So Okay. So at that time but he wasn't talking at that time. No, and it it it did it's it started to concern me. I I'm not sure if I texted mama about it or not. Well, you sent the picture to her. Yeah, I probably should have said something about the eating there at that point though. Well, I certainly feel stupid. You have to think about it like this right? She's she's your grown adult and if she sees sees that that's not all on you right? You you made from what I see you made numerous times to say we need to do something different about this. Yeah. We need to we can't keep doing this to him. I know she's a good person but I just It is not about I don't think I don't know if this is both of our faults if we should have done something sooner. I know we both could have. Yeah. I mean I think you have to think about this. It's right now is not a time to blame people but it's a time to try to figure out you know when when could we have changed things? What could we have done differently? How did we get to the point where we were at? Because you know clearly where you guys got to. You said he was in the bath. That wasn't a nice enjoyable bath though right? That was a punishment bath. Ferguson and his mother often punished Timothy by forcing him to take ice baths. Right? It's a cold ice cold bath. And and that doesn't that's hard to watch. watch that. He did he I did tell him that if he wanted to wash up and he did but then in the middle of it I think he the whole laying there in a daze happened. When he's getting these ice baths I know there's numerous of them right? I mean because I read through the messages. Yes. How how are you getting the ice like where is it coming from? We have an ice machine upstairs. It's not a lot and it can barely create any. It's enough to make a full on Okay. But it's a cold Yeah. And you're putting ice in there like one one dump ice two dumps one dump Yeah, maybe that much. And and then you're just running cold water or what type of water are you Uh it the water doesn't exactly go cold cold. It says there's a cold button but Right. it's basically sort of lukewarmish. How many times would you estimate you guys getting cold baths as a punishment for Um not whatever whatever for whatever reason. I think for punishments it was I don't exactly know the number but it wasn't a lot. Are we talking like 5 10 20 every day every other day any idea of that? 5 Okay. Whose idea was to give him a cold bath as a punishment? It was my mother's. I I wasn't sure if it would do if it would be a punishment effective or not. Do you remember the first time you guys did it with what why like what did he do? not exactly. What did he do on that day that you sent the photo that made you have to give him a cold bath? Um I think it was that he not only peed but also pooped and and my mother wasn't too happy because it absolutely reeked. Yeah. And we talked about that. I understand the good of that. I also read through all the messages. Yeah. They where did he sleep most of the nights in that closet? Yes. When did that kind of start happening? Um Like had he always been staying in there? No, he hadn't always. Okay. But the thing was the wall of that if you've noticed Yeah. the screws and stuff that was his doing. Okay. And we couldn't get it safely back. Yeah. So he's sleeping in the closet. Yes. We made sure that it was cleaned. He had a mattress in there but then he decided to rip off the cover like a sort of plastic cover we'd put on there to keep it from getting smelly and Yeah. disgusting. We wanted we always wanted what's best for him. We It's I don't know. So you guys decided to move him into the closet. There's an alarm on the door. It says so what's that for? When he would try sneak because if you notice there was also one on the garage door. That was also because yeah, there was some food in there that you would try and sneak. Right. And it wasn't just that he was hungry at some points because those it was that. He wanted something sweet. He just And yeah, at times he would be taking stuff that was going to have plans for food, actual food. Yeah, I agree. That's exactly what you're saying. And it I don't know about the whole I don't know, just bread at some points, but we did start giving him actual better food. When when you talk about the bedroom being moved into that closet, is that your room or is that your mom's room? That was my mom's. Okay. Yes. And uh So, how long do you think he was staying in that closet for? Um Uh Ferguson had to know on some level that there was something horribly wrong with the way Timothy was being treated, although he may be in denial. A couple of weeks, maybe. I think it's I think we truly had started activating the alarm on the door every night after he we found that he would sneak out and get back up on. Yeah. It was loft bed. Where like I said, that thing was dangerous at that point because he had been screwing around with the bolts and screws and at any point it could have given way and he could have gotten seriously injured. Right. Yeah. So, if he moves into there is the tarp in there? Is that just to prevent What is that for? That was after we I think we had gone through like three plastic covers that he had shredded Yeah. before we decided to put down the tarp. And honestly, I had expected him to complain, but he didn't and I don't know. I just So, there's So, restriction of food, you talked about bread. All Timothy was allowed to eat was bread with hot sauce. For how long was he just eating just bread? A week or two. What was he kind of eating before that? Um we'd do ramen, sandwiches. And I think at some points we actually give him like a meal. Yeah. What's uh why was it that he couldn't have meals? I mean The whole sneaking I just I just I don't Cuz he was sneaking food. A lot, yeah. We over and over and over. There would literally be times where I would be sitting on the couch playing. Yeah. And then I'd look up and he's there grabbing something. Yeah. And so, whose idea was it for him to just eat bread? Is that your idea? No. Whose idea was that? My mother's. Tell me about the hot sauce. I know that that was used as both the punishment and it was put on the bread. Was it always on the bread? Not always, no. But the thing is it's still hard to eat, didn't he seem to him? Yeah. There would be times where it would do something for me because I'd accidentally rub my eye after I put it on there. It was ow. Yeah. So, you're putting I mean what what dictates whether or not there's hot sauce on the bread he eats or eats it What what decides that? I I don't know. I just Whenever my mother told me to put hot sauce on it, I did. It was normally a thin layer to make sure that it wouldn't be too much because from what I know, the ghost or the California reaper is like 2,000 Scoville or 2 million Scoville. What does that mean? It's the hot sauce or the hot heat index, basically. Okay. And that's pretty high. Very. Yeah. So, how long have you guys been using the hot sauce for? Um Almost a month, maybe. Okay. And was that only on bread or was that on other stuff, too? Uh I think one time we put it in some rice. Okay. But after that, I don't think we did that again. What was it What was it used for? Right? Cuz you're giving him bread as his only meal. What's the purpose of the hot sauce? I know it was punishment, but honestly, I don't think it was that useful because like I said, he had no feeling in his tongue to eat. He told me about a hole in it at one point and didn't even feel it. Was he eating his bread with hot sauce or was he Yeah. Yes. Is that really the only things he had to eat those days or did he eat other things to eat? Um From the bread and rice, other than that, not that I know of. Okay. So, sir, how long do you think he just ate rice and bread and hot sauce? Maybe like four months, maybe. Or one month, sorry. Okay. We understand. thinking four weeks and I'm very sorry about that. We totally understand. I understand what you're saying. So, maybe about four weeks. Yeah. Did you see a decline in him during that four weeks of losing even more weight or being even less responsive or What what changed when you moved him to doing that? Um I think it was that there would be times where it would take him a moment to respond. At first, I thought it was just him acting, but then I was getting concerned. I think a week or so, maybe. Okay. Okay. That is his response to the delay, is that what you Yeah, and As a matter of fact, I think you even mentioned that to your mom multiple times, right? That that he doesn't seem to be responding. He can't walk very well. He's stumbling. I think you mentioned those things, too. Yeah. Yeah. What did she What was her response to those things? Um I think she was thinking because there was one point where he did that, but it was before he was thin. Yeah. And it scared the crap out of me, but then he admitted to my mother later that day while I was at work that it was an act. Okay. And so, I guess we made the mistake that she made the mistake of believing that that was what it was. I don't I know that he's done stuff like that back in Oklahoma, too. He would he would do something that would scare the crap out of us to make us believe that something was wrong and several times here he faked seizures. I've seen it because and I've also seen what happens because back in Oklahoma, he had the seizures from medication problems. Okay. But but yeah, I know the I can tell the difference. And at one point, he nearly Gabriel had just barely walked back into the parent into my Adam's room, my and Adam's room when he tried it again. Had Gabriel been there, he would have been even more terrified than he already was because like we said, Timothy may have had an underlying medical condition or seizures could have been caused by malnutrition. He was there for the stroke and the seizures, so. Yeah. The uh the hot sauce. Whose idea was it to be the hot sauce as punishment? I don't Is that your idea? I don't know. I honestly don't remember that part. I don't remember whose it was. I know that before we were using the California, we were using ghost pepper sauce. Where Where do these sauces come from? Um I think it was it was either Amazon or Walmart apps. Okay. Did you ever go to the store and buy any? No, we didn't. Did you ever order any of those yourself or who was ordering the hot sauce? My mother is, but she would ask if I could help her pay for it, which Okay. Like I said, she's been amazing. She's never demanded money. Yeah. So, I guess how much she she asked you. So, I knew that Right. she wasn't just going if if I said it not that moment, she would have understood unlike my father. Yeah. So, the So, the hot sauce on bread, if you ever put hot sauce on it, was that ever your own decision to put hot sauce on the bread? No. Sometimes you were left in charge of the two kids, right? Yes. How often was that that you were Um Sometimes it was during the mornings where she would go to work, but around 3:00-ish, I would have to go to work myself. She would be home after around 6:00 from work and at that point she would ask me to have them both go to Gabriel and Timothy to go to their rooms, which Yeah, for him at that point was the closet and Gabriel's was downstairs as well. Gabriel would take his tablet because if there's one thing we both know it's that he's also very dependent on that. It's something that keeps him calm and collected. So, Mom is When mom's not there, is she monitoring with the cameras? Is that what the cameras are in the monitor for? Yes. And how does she communicate with you? Uh text. By text? From her phone to your phone? Or Yes. Okay. And how does she communicate with the other kids? Uh through the alarms. Cuz they do have that, too, that two-way talking. But so she can talk to them through the alarm system. Yeah, through the alarms. Yeah. Okay, it's the cameras, not alarms. Okay. The alarms don't have it. Sorry. You don't have to be sorry. I'm actually sorry that I just I can't. So, you're She's able to communicate with them that way. She's communicating with you via text. Yes. Timothy doesn't have anything to text with. He does, but I don't think cuz he's We can't We couldn't trust him on devices, so we couldn't exactly So, you have uh her kind of monitoring everything. I do sometimes at some points. Yes, I I will log into the cameras and make sure that I don't have Gabriel's app because normally before I leave, he's upstairs in her room. The youngest brother did not receive the same punishments as Timothy. There were four brothers, and Vander may have targeted Timothy because of his special needs. He's been like that for a while. Timothy's Or Gabriel's? I I don't know about that one, honestly. know what app was uh What app was Timothy's? Uh the one for his room I think Mama had that one. I know the one in the bathroom was blue something, b l u and then something else. Okay. And you know the one in the downstairs downstairs area was Tekken. Okay. So, wait. There was So, was Timothy his own too in his room? Yes, but that was before we built the closet. The Tekken was for when he was there, and it was also when he would get up and have to go to the bathroom before this whole Which ones did you not have to log into? Uh I don't think I remember the one for the Tekken, but I think the other one was my sister Milly's name, and then it was two numbers, I think. I don't remember. Okay. When do you think was the last time you got logged into that camera? Um the Tekken? It was Logging into the blue. Was it blue? Um I think it was maybe a couple of days ago. I don't So, just to be right But after I Normally, I would uh after I would When I would get ready to head to work, I would log out of it because I could not stand with my Apple Watch. It was connected to my phone, so whenever that had a notification, it would go off. Like Gabriel going to the bathroom, my watch would vibrate during work. It would be annoying. Yeah, that's unnecessary. Okay. So, I wouldn't know what was normally going on during the nights. Right. So, I know that when we talked yesterday, we talked to your mom. And well, she was lying about some stuff, right? I know that she's a good person. I'm not doubting that at all. Yeah, well, the thing is, I don't know if any of this But you you also are You also know this like I know that some of the things that she was talking about weren't the truth, right? About She said she didn't know there was a camera in the bathroom. But the fact of the matter is she asked you to put the camera in the bathroom, right? Didn't she send you a text message that says, "Put the Make sure that the camera's in there and and and take the shower curtain down so I can see him." Didn't she ask you that the day that the day before he passed away? Yeah. So, we talked about some of that stuff. Remember how during the conversation, I know this pepper spray was for punishment. And what did she say? She said, "I didn't know anything about that." Right? Vander would have allowed Ferguson to take the blame if it had been possible. Fortunately, there was enough evidence to prove she not only knew what was going on, but that she instigated Timothy's punishments. Why do you think she's saying those things? Why do you think she's She doesn't want to appear like a bad person. She doesn't want to be the type of person that we never wanted any of this. We want We We wanted him to be healthy. I know that for a fact. We just We should have been so much We should have actually I should have at least put my foot down on something. Right. But you know It's not that I'm afraid of her. I I can't fear her cuz she doesn't She's not the type to instill fear. Yeah. I don't know if that's also what caused him to sometimes lie about things as well. Was that he still had this fear of Dad, and then he thought she would be the same. Yeah, that could very well be the case. She's not She's nothing like him. That much I know. She's like But But she knows that you shouldn't be using hot sauce as a punishment, right? She knows better than that. And you know better than that, too, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think that anybody with some common sense knows that hot sauce is not something you use to punish a child for for eating food that he wasn't supposed to eat or for disrespect or for not following orders. You know those things aren't okay. I know that. We've We've tried so many different things. We just were running out of options of trying to find a punishment that would actually work. And even that did nothing. Timothy did not need punishment. He needed someone with medical training to help him with his behaviors and to help his family understand his needs and which of his actions were beyond his control. And we still kept trying. I don't know why. So, you have hot sauce, tell me about the handcuffs. I know that once you get She took my leg that right in the movie, did she put it all on She put it all on you. She said that that was your idea, and they told me you were using that you did those things. But I think that's not the truth from what I read on here. What's the real truth about that? We would have him against the wall at some points, and he would try to move. And at one point, we'd actually put motion sensors on him to stop that. But on him himself? Yeah, like they were vibrators They would sense any sort of vibrations. But the thing is, he's learned to trick them by moving so slow. Or they'd be on his door, and they'd be moving so slow that it wouldn't set off. So, he'd get away with stuff. Okay. So, So, you're saying standing still like Was that the punishment that he was forced to stand? On the wall, yeah. Against the wall he was having Was that regular that he had to do that? Like how How often was he having to stand against the wall? Um Since 2 weeks ago, it wasn't very often. Okay. Just because he couldn't physically stand against the wall anymore? No, it was I guess that part It just didn't work because if he wouldn't set it off when he was against the wall, he would then like It It'd be on his uh It'd be on a belt around him. He'd stuff them in his pocket and then just sit down on the floor and or lay down and stay like that. So, So, he was punished by trying to make him stand, but then he would lay down. Did you guys ever wake him up on purpose cuz he wasn't supposed to be sleeping? Yeah, and we also know one thing about him was that if he slept during the day, he was going to be up all night. Okay. So, you wouldn't let him sleep during the day, essentially. If he wanted maybe an hour long or 2 hours, now we would. But anything longer, we knew that it would start screwing with his actual sleeping. So, who's monitoring this all the time? Like who's making sure he's not sleeping during the day? Who's making sure he stands against the wall? Um Ferguson spent a lot of time watching Timothy on the cameras, slowly watching as his brother wasted away from neglect. When my mother was at work, she'd have me log in before she'd leave. I'd come upstairs and go back to sleep on the couch. I just had an alarm normally for 10:30 to 11:30 so that I could wake up and be up to keep things going on the house, keep everything in order. Okay. So, She never did any of this to be harsh. I Listen, I'm I'm in no way questioning whether your mom cared or any of those things. I'm not. But the reality is we just had to talk about how we got to this point and how these decisions were made, sir. I think I really don't want you to think that. We also did stop the leg cuffs, I think, a while ago because we noticed that his ankles were swelling. So, we stopped that because we didn't want his legs to become Yeah. irreparable. How long How often were you guys putting leg cuffs on him before that? Um Was that something like at night to stop him from moving around? Or what was it for? Uh I think we did it once or so. Once, maybe twice at night. One like I don't know. One time. Oh, I don't know. I'm so so lost. I just don't know what to do. What about handcuffs or zip ties? What did you guys use those for? The zip ties were easier to with fasten the vibration alarms to his belt during the day. Yeah. Or to put it on his wrists, not too tight where and I would make sure after the first time we did that I would make sure to cut off the end of the zip ties because I had them loose. And then he decided to tighten them to where they were nearly cutting off circulation. Yeah. So after that point I myself when I was told to put him in the zip ties I'd grab a pair of scissors and snip off the ends to make sure that he couldn't tighten it to where There is no situation where it is acceptable to zip tie a child. Ferguson can try to rationalize his actions, but this was not discipline. It was torture. It was cutting anything off. Were you guys ever zip tying his hands together? Uh his hands? I I think we did once when we had a like a pair of them that could the zip cuffs. But again, I'd cut those off to make sure that he don't get touched. He wouldn't tighten them yeah because What was that for? Why would you use those zip ties? Normally we have him do this. It was something that my I'm not sure if it was my father or my mother back when they were together. But when we were put in time out we'd be told to do this. And so sometimes though he'd try and do stuff like this and or just try and put his hands down and down by his sides so we do that to keep them Yeah. How long do you think he had them on for? Um I think the zip ties and cuffs probably when we had them first use them it was when I would leave when I would get ready to leave for work I'd put them on do the whole snipping and then when mom would get home she'd grab the scissors and cut them off immediately. Yeah. How long are we talking? This is for a couple hours, 8 hours, 10 hours? Uh normally the maximum was three. Okay. Because when I worked in the normally at that point I think I was only working evening and closing shifts. Yeah. It would be 4:30 or 4:00 that I'd need to be there so in order to get there I would have to leave an hour before to actually make it on time. Right. But And we we'd have to we put the vibration ones on there but then again we stopped that after the zip ties because with the chains or the chain parts of the cuffs I think they would rattle to where if you tried to move it would still set them off even with the whole slowness. Yeah. Tell me about the night before. I know that you said you got him in the bed too. Yeah. Let's talk about you know kind of what really happened that night and all that. I did take my meds. He was in his room. I didn't think to check. I should have though. I should have seen made sure he was at least okay that he was that he was breathing. I don't He could have he could have been gone by the time I'd already gotten home. Right. So when you first talked to us and when you talked to the police you know you said he was on his bunk bed, right? Yeah. But that's not the truth. No. Okay. He was in that closet that's right there by the bunk bed? Yeah. Okay. And then your mom had texted that earlier in the night or how did you know that he was in there? I just I guess at that point it was just something I would already know because I have a sleep problem. It's not like a problem problem. Just a small sort of OCD with the light switches. Okay. So I'd go upstairs and I'd take my meds and normally the light switches by the back door I want them down and then when I come over the stairs normally when I flip it down the light in the dining room wouldn't turn on so I'd go to the stairs and flip it to turn the light on. The stairs and the ones in the dining room down off. Go downstairs and then flip that switch to get the stairs off and then the one in there would turn on. And that was how I would know he wasn't in the bed. But then go and turn the ones off at the start of the hall and then turn off the light with the switch by my bedroom. So you know he's not in his bed. Yes. So you you you told us that you heard him snoring. Is that Was that a lie? Yeah. And did Did you come up with that on your own or did somebody ask you to say that he was in the bed? Um It's okay. I know. It's okay. I feel so guilty like I could have done something at any point in this. But you're not You were a perfect You have a mother that's telling you what to do. And so I understand why you feel the way that you do, but at the same time you have to look at You You think that your mom is telling you to do what's best for him, right? That's what you've been telling me since you were a little kid. I know she she wants what's best for all of us. So I'm back to my question. Did somebody ask you to say that he was in the bunk bed? I came up with that on my own because I didn't want By making up the story Ferguson proves that he knew what they were doing was wrong. I I feel so guilty. You came up with that on your own? Yeah because So tell me what really happened in the morning then because obviously what was told to us wasn't the truth. What really What really happened? Did you guys somebody find him or I woke up and I had been grabbing my shoes and it was it was at that point that it basically all played out like we said. The whole morning thing was exact. He was He wasn't breathing in the closet. It was the closet though. We had to get him out of the closet to try and resuscitate. So it's you and your mother that tried to revive him in the closet? We did get him out. Okay. And we tried to resuscitate. Was he Was he Who noticed him first? You or My mother. Okay. Did she ask you if you had asked to check on him on the way up? That's how it happened. She said I can check on him on the way up the stairs. Do you remember that text message at all? No. Okay. I There might have been one that I didn't see but Okay. So you guys pull him out of the closet. We tried to resuscitate. We gave him rescue breaths. His breath smelled horrible. I thought maybe he might have still been capable of being resuscitated but his his mouth was still wet. Yeah. And so I thought maybe it had just been recent so we could we could do something but When you were at work that you came home in the morning too. Does that sound right or is that Yeah we That was true because What was it? It's the It was the day after the 4th of July or so. I don't What's today's date? Yeah today's the 7th. The 7th. Yeah it was on my past so Well it's the 5th when you were at work and then you came home in the morning of Yes and some of the servers had there were still people in the lobby and we had to finish that off. I'm a general utility so I have to break down the machine clean the outside clean the floors. Got you. So when you guys pull him out of the closet does he have clothes on at that point or is he in a diaper or what's that state he's in? He had a shirt. I think we had put him in pants or sweatpants. But I don't know maybe at some point in the night he took them off. I don't know about that. Would you say he you weren't there when he went to bed, right? No. So how would you know if he if we put him in sweatpants? Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. So do you know if he had pants on or not when you went back? No honestly. But he didn't have them when we got him out. He had the diaper on at least. So he has the diaper on. You're saying that he has a shirt on. What shirt did he have on? The very same sweatshirt that we found him in cuz obviously we didn't want him to get cold or I don't think mom wanted him to get cold. I'm pretty sure she texted me about that. I'm not sure. So you guys pull him out. Does he have pants on or no pants on? No. No. And when we get there he has pants on? Yeah she had me put them on. She asked you to put pants on him? He doesn't have clothes on. I I don't know. I just And so you guys Ferguson and Vander tried to cover up Timothy's condition, but clothing him wasn't enough to hide the neglect. At that time she decides that she's going to lie to them and say that he was in the bunk bed. I don't understand. I don't know why She doesn't want to seem like she's bad that she We never We weren't neglecting him. And even if that's what it if it somehow ended up like that it was never intentional. Right. Well what you're saying I mean if you would have talked, right? There's There's all these things where you're like she didn't want to seem like this. She didn't want to seem like this. She didn't want to seem like this. Did you know that it all seemed like that, right? Yes. It does. And And he clearly was neglected because he died from it, right? The reality is that he was. That's why we're here talking today. So he was very much neglected. And And the fact that you know she had asked you to put hot sauce on his private parts. Did she do that? She asked but I never did. I never did. No. Okay. And she had asked you to put hot sauce directly into his mouth. Did you do that? Yes. Is that Is that on the 5th the day kind of leading up to all this stuff? Yeah. How much hot sauce did you put in there? Um Um God. And then whose idea was that to put that hot sauce in there? Hers. And what was the purpose of that? Again, she thought the whole unresponsive wasn't an act. She thought it was an act. Which clearly, very clearly it wasn't. I mean Yeah. What is the hot sauce that you used? Is that the one that was in the bathroom or was it a different one? That was the one in the bathroom, yeah. How do you feel about lying during this? Does that How does that make you feel? I I just hated I just I know she doesn't want to be the bad guy. She never wanted this. We didn't want it. We loved him so much. And it's I don't think it's about helping it's about lying at this point. I think it's about not knowing what to do and not knowing how to handle the situation. We didn't know how to do anything. I didn't know how I didn't know how to do anything. I didn't know. The worst punishment I ever gotten in Oklahoma is it was my father. He He spanked me with a belt so hard that my butt was bruised. Yeah. And then another point they had me do wall sits. He had me do wall sits while holding two cans of chicken noodle soup out like this and that was when I was in high school. I could hardly get to school the next couple of days because I had to walk and my limbs were so stiff and felt was lactic acid and it was just painful to try and even get across the street. And again bruises on my backside too where it was really hard to sit at school. What other kinds of things did you guys ever put hot sauce in Did they ever put hot sauce like in his eyes or anything like that? Not that I know of. I think at one point he may have After he eaten he had forgotten to wash his hands and rubbed his eye. Okay. I know at one point I know he did that at least. Did you ever directly put hot sauce into his eye? No. I remember that when that happened I helped him wash out his eyes to make sure that it wouldn't sting so much or it wouldn't sting at all. I'm not sure if it helped or not. But he was He said it was good after I think that was a couple of weeks. Okay. Okay. What else can you tell me about what happened that day? Um What other punishments did you guys have for him? Um I know at one point that he was actually refusing to eat. We would give him his food and he would just be stubborn and sit there and just slowly slowly It was regular bread, nothing else on it. Just chow down to the point where it was basically he was trying to waste time he could be upstairs. Where did he spend most of his time? In his room. We We wouldn't make him stand. Sometimes we would have him kneeling like on his knees like this facing one of the corners but What was that for? For punishment? Yeah. I don't even know what it was for at this point. I'm not sure if Where did he spend most of his time? It was in that room. The The closet The closet there? Yeah, I think less than three or so weeks ago we were We've been having him try to do school work but the thing is that he's just At this point I'm slightly curious on how he's even in He was even in sophomore year. He was supposed to be a junior next year but I don't We weren't sure if we were going to be able to do that because he was just Timothy was not performing well in school and was most likely being punished for that as well. He was flunking everything and my mother graded fairly. She used the actual answers that were on the website or in textbook of some sort. Yeah. All right. Back in Oklahoma he was also even destructive at school destroying textbooks, desks. Did they do anything? I don't just So He was a destructive child. And now this is all happening right where you and your mom agreed to tell the same story that he was in the bathtub or how does that happen? You couldn't have both just possibly made up the same story. Now so what happened? She told me that. She told you what to say? Yeah. Okay. She told you what to say? Yes. Because why? Did she tell you why? Cuz it would look bad for you guys? It's not just that. We loved him. She Does this Can I ask you this like straight up? You keep saying love love. Do you feel like this was love? That he's dead now because he couldn't eat food. Does that feel like love to you? No. He's dead because he couldn't eat. No. And I don't know anybody that thinks that's love. What I think is happening is your mom convinced you that she's this perfect person and she's asking you to do all these things that are literally killing your brother. I know she's not perfect. The detective confronts Ferguson with the truth about Vander. Ferguson is visibly upset and is unable to admit even to himself that she did not have good intentions. How is that love? How is love How is love ice baths? How is love How is love handcuffing and how is love restricting movement and how is love hot sauce in the mouth and only eating bread? What if you What if you only got to eat bread? How would you feel? What if you only got to eat bread with hot sauce? Would you eat? No. You're pretty skinny already. It wouldn't take you long This is This is This is my natural weight. I have an overactive metabolism. But it wouldn't take you long to be very much skin and bones if all you got to eat was bread and hot sauce because how could you eat it? And how could you feel good about eating it? Was he throwing up stuff when he was eating? Forcefully. He would force himself to to get it back up. Yeah. Like recently in the last couple weeks? Yeah. He would force himself honestly. You ever think it's because maybe it was painful? It's hot sauce. It's not like that just goes away. Did he ever complain about pain? Stomach pain? Pain from using the bathroom? Not that I know of, no. I do know that my mother she's not perfect but she's not a bad person. We were We Do you know Can I ask you this? Do you know of any good people who starve a child to death? Tell me of one that you know of. Tell me of one that you know of. That's a child who has a lot of problems, right? That's not a child that's taking care of themselves. They can't take care of themselves cuz you guys are restricting where he can go and what he can do and if he does something wrong you're punishing him by giving him ice baths and hot sauce and only feeding him bread. How is that? How is that a loving person? How is that a loving mother? You know what that sounds like to me and honestly the worst mother I've ever met in my entire life is what it sounds like to me. I know. I know. But she's not Maybe she wasn't to you. Maybe she was a good mother to you and maybe she wasn't to Gabriel. Sounds like she's a very good mother to Gabriel. But to one of the three child one of the three children she didn't care. She You can say You can say that if you want. She She starved him to death because he wouldn't stop taking food. Well maybe he's taking food because he wants to live. You ever thought about that? Yes. Maybe he's stealing food so that he can survive. He's dead because he didn't get food. I know that. Well that's not anybody's fault but your mother's and you can try to take the some of the blame if you want but it's her fault because every single time I see a message in here it's her telling you what to do and she put you right in the middle of this. She put you right in the middle of this where it looks like some of the stuff your idea and and it actually looks like in some of these things that you kind of enjoyed it. That you kind of enjoyed punishing him for doing wrong things. Do you feel like you kind of enjoyed punishing him for that stuff? Maybe not that he was in pain but that you were you were in charge and you got to tell him you can't do that. Go do this. This is your punishment. Did you like some of that stuff? No. Did she like some of that stuff? No. How come you guys are laughing and joking about it sometimes? Those smiley faces and Like if it's the upside down smiley face. Yeah, what's that mean? It's the opposite of happiness. Okay. It means that I'm really angry. Okay. She's kept me calm like I said. Cuz he made you mad a lot, right? It seems as though he made you mad a lot. But when you look back on it, do you think he really could control it? Clearly, he had some He needed help. He didn't need punishment. He needed some help. He couldn't make those decisions or do those things on his own. We You saw it over and over and over and over again, right? What was your mother's choice? Her choice was more punishment, less food, more punishment. The only food you get is bread, and the only bread you get sometimes is with the hottest hot sauce that we can find. That's all you get to eat. There's no way that you can look at yourself and think that's okay. And that your mom's good for that. She was doing what's best for him. How could that be best for him? Why couldn't it be Why couldn't it be a a piece of chicken that's that's cooked? Why couldn't he eat that? Why does it have to be bread with hot sauce? It's not about punishment. You need food to survive. You need food to live. Ferguson is unable to argue with the detectives points. He knows that this went far beyond punishment. And if the detective doesn't buy that excuse, then neither will a jury. He didn't get to live because of that. Because of what you guys did. And and I'm sitting here talking to you because I think that way more of it has to do with your mom than you. I don't think that you're this bad person who was out here doing these things. But, you're also still not telling me the whole truth about what happened about the night that he ended up dead. That there's more to that story. I have told you everything that I have. I just I don't want to live a life where I regret the fact that I hid somehow something. I told you everything I know. How do you feel about living a life where you hid that your brother wasn't eating from society? That you hid that your brother was dying. How do you feel about that? I hate myself, okay? If I could take his place right now, if I could give him back his life, I'd do it in a dead calm heartbeat. Did your mom ever do anything like this to you? No. Not even back when he she and my father were together. The punishments were him. When did this stuff kind of start? Sounds like to me it started after his step dad left. Because too much he could would take advantage of that situation. We were all stressed. And he would take advantage of that. He Anything he can find to take advantage of. Almost his entire life except for I think when he was still a baby. He would find some way to take advantage of whatever he can. Was there ever food restrictions when Is it Eric? And dad? Yeah. Eric. Oh, not Eric. I don't know. Adam? Adam? Adam was step dad to you, correct? Yes. Was there ever food restrictions with bread only when he was in the house? No, because was the house as messy like it is now? Disgusting. It wasn't as messy. We With all the stress that's been going on, we just We've had moments where yeah, we could get it cleaned up, but Does your mom feel bad at all about giving him just bread? Yes. Hot sauce and locking him in the closet Yes. and cuffing him to the bed, and she hates it. She never once enjoyed it. Ice baths. Ice baths. She gave him ice baths on daily diet, right? Getting up to it. And she wanted him to sleep in the tub, that's what I read. Did that happen? Did he sleep in the tub? No. He didn't. No. He didn't die in that bathtub and you guys dragged him into that closet and waited for the morning to call the police. No, that's not what happened. No. It's not. You think she did that. Do you think that message is just a little bit suspicious that she sent you out just about midnight that says, "Heath He's in the closet. I had to drag him in there." You don't think he was already dying or dead at that point? I was working. I didn't read that message and so basically I got home. But, do you think she sent that for a reason? Why would she send that? I don't know. Doesn't it seem like maybe he was already dead? That she put him in there so that he could wake up and have died in his sleep. Because she can't call the police when he's in the nice bath and he freezes and he dies. Not freezes per se, but he dies in the bath. And she dragged him in there. Did she talk to you at all about that? Did she tell you the truth about what really happened? I don't know at this point. She did, right? I don't know and I don't want you to lie to me anymore. No, I don't know if he died in there. I don't know where I I I remember I noticed when it when I got up, he was gone. And when was the last time you saw him alive? The fifth. What time? About 5:00. Um I think because of my bike, mom had to pick me up and drop me off at work. So, I was very late getting there, but I had let them know beforehand. I know he was alive before I left. You know he was alive when you left the house. Yeah. And you don't really know exactly what happened. I think I managed to get there a little bit after 6:00. I managed to get get to work around 6:35-ish. So, she says to you at 11:49 p.m. on 7/5, "So, please set your alarm for 6:00 a.m. I ended up dragging him back to a small room." That's talking about the closet. Yeah. "Because I wasn't going to risk him having access to the tub or other things overnight." Wasn't he already in the tub? So, what do you mean risk him having access to the tub overnight? He's still trying to be water. She says, "He's still trying to be stupid, but I will tell you more tomorrow while I take you to work." Describing how many different ways I proved that he's still faking. He's still doing it. The thing was that yesterday I had offered him a pizza roll. Cuz I was I wanted to truly test whether he was faking or not. And at first he didn't he didn't move. I'm like, "Okay, maybe this is But, then he moved and went to try and grab it. I'm like, "Okay, I don't I don't even know. I don't know anymore." Well, he wasn't faking it, right? Cuz he died. Yeah. He wasn't faking it unless he unless your mom did something to him to kill him. Do you think she did that? No, of course not. I was trying to not be rude, but who's been punishing him for months? Ferguson says that his mother isn't a murderer. He doesn't seem to realize that what she did is classified as murder, and the same label will apply to him as well. That's what killed him, right? Or did she Did she hold a pillow over his mouth and stuff and suffocate him? No, of course not. She's not a She wouldn't Did she hold him by the throat and squeeze it until he died? No. So, what killed him was not having food? Not having access to food and malnutrition for months? How long did this go on for? I don't know. I don't know. Do you feel Do you feel good at all about any of this stuff? No, of course not. You can't, right? I can't I can't even live with myself. Do you How do you feel about over and over and over again defending your mother about how good she is? Do you feel like that's the truth anymore? Cuz I'm quite disgusted by her then. I'm disgusted by her. She never wanted this. Do you How smart is your mom? She's incredibly intelligent. Yeah, [ __ ] laude, right? Have you ever thought about that? Have you ever thought, "How can a woman that's this smart, this intelligent, graduate from law school, how could she not know what's happening? How could she think this is fake? How does she not know she's starving? How does she not see that he's wasting away? And you here, you're telling me that you've got some some on top that she's what you graduated from high school, and it's very obvious to you that he's he's got malnutrition, right? It's very obvious to you. But, your mom here is not seeing that, and she's a she's a law school graduate, and she's very smart. Do you see what I'm looking at here? She's a liar. She lied to you about so much stuff. At some point, you need to stand up for yourself and realize she's a manipulator, she's a liar. She put you in this spot. She did this to your brother. Using you. Do you not see that? Did she use you to do this to your brother? Your mother used you. She's so smart. She's smarter than any of us here. She's smarter than me. She's smarter than any detective here. She's smarter than our chief of police here. She's smarter than all of us, and and we're supposed to believe she didn't know what's happening. No, she didn't want him around anymore because he was too much of a problem. The detective does not sugarcoat his opinion, and Ferguson is not pleased by the implication that he has been manipulated by his mother. You know that's the truth. You can look back at it and see that, can't you? She didn't want him around anymore because he was too much work. That's the truth. And the second you start to believe that and understand that, then I think that's the time you can move forward in this case. Until you believe that, until you understand that, you're never moving forward from this. This isn't an accident. This didn't just happen. Your mom knew exactly what was happening and that he was wasting away. You saw it, didn't you? You saw it happening right in front of you. It was never intentional. For your for you for you? Or for her? Is she smarter or is she not smarter? She's highly intelligent. Then how is this not intentional? She thought What what did she think was going to happen then? He was just going to be good? And all of a sudden he was going to start behaving and doing everything she said because she didn't feed him food? I don't know. What did she think was going to happen? I don't know. I don't know what Exactly what happened is what she thought was going to happen. At some point he wasn't going to wake up. She never wanted him dead. She loved him. That's love to you? Everything that we talked about is love? I How? Who do you love in your life? My family. Have you ever thought about starving them? No, of course not. Have you ever thought about not giving them food as a punishment? No, of course not. Have you ever thought about giving them hot sauce so that they would listen? No. Or that they would do what was told? You somehow don't think those things are okay? Do you think those things are okay? No. Because everybody knows they're not. Except the smartest woman in the room. She's the one person that doesn't know that's not okay? You're joking, right? The smartest woman in the room is the one that doesn't know you can't do those things. No, it's all very intentional. The smartest woman in the room knows. She graduated second in her class from law school. She graduated with honors from college and from law school. But she doesn't know that not giving your kid food is going to make him sick and die? We gave him food. She even told me to make sure that he had a good amount of when it She would tell me on certain on random days. They were never consecutive, I don't believe. What for the hot sauce punishment, but other than that it was always bread and rice. At one point she even asked me to put some broth. I think that she wanted chicken, but we didn't have any, so I used beef. It is evident from his expression that the detective is tired of Ferguson's flimsy attempts to justify his mother's actions. Or first and rice. She She cared. She never wanted this. But she sent her pictures of him looking dead. Right? Looking almost dead. Yeah. I was trying That's your brother. Yeah. That's June 13th, less than a month ago. You sent this picture to her and you said, "He's looking like a skeleton. You need to give him more food." But you guys didn't give him more food over the next couple weeks. You guys gave him less and more punishment and less bread and more bread with hot sauce. That's what really happened. You reached out to her and said, "This is scary looking, right?" You probably thought, "He can barely walk." You sent a picture of his legs, right? You sent this picture of his legs to your mother. Right here. You sent this to her. And what did you say? Something along the lines of, "No wonder he can barely stand up or walk. Look at that." And your mother, being smart and and intelligent and the smartest woman in the room, she didn't do anything about that. Didn't think about taking him to the doctor. Didn't think about, "Let We have to give him some more food to like seriously now." Instead, what do you think she did? She gave him less and more punishment until what? He ends up dead. And what did she tell the police? "He was always wearing baggy clothes, so I didn't notice anything until last night." Another just blatant lie. Another blatant lie. If she This was all an accident, why would she lie about it? If this was all an accident, why wouldn't she just say, "We we were having a really hard time with him. I thought he was okay." No, she knows that he looked like this. That he looked like this. Look at his face right there. That's not who your brother looked like, is it? No. He didn't look like that. Does that look like a That looks like somebody in a casket that you see at a funeral. That's what that looks like. And it's sickening and disgusting. And you sent this picture to her, too. Didn't you? You sent that to her, didn't you? Yeah. You sent that to her on July 5th. Right before the the the day leading up to him being found dead. Does he look like he's okay right there? No. Why did you send that picture? I was concerned. Yeah, once again, you're not the smartest person in the room and you're concerned. Did she do anything about it? No, you know what she said? He's going to sleep in the bathtub all night tonight. He's sleeping in the bathtub all night tonight. The smartest woman in the room. He's getting a bathtub all night for punishment. Make sure the shower curtain's always open so I can see him. And what happens later on that night? At some point between the time this is picture sent and the time you wake up in the morning, he dies. Cuz he's alive right here, right? Yeah. 100%. Yeah. He's alive. Did she tell you to smack him and see if he blinks? Or is that a different time? That was Is that this time or a different time? I You smack him in the face to see if he's faking it? I was trying to see what was going on. Trying to see if he would even respond if what was going on with him. I was Because to you, not the smartest person in the room, to you, you already know this isn't okay. This is a dying person. This is your brother dying. Sorry about that. This is your brother. He's He's almost dead. And then And then you So she sitting him up. Yeah. And I would come back a little later and I would notice that he would he actually had moved himself back down. I wasn't sure if it was intentional or if he was trying to clear up his airway maybe. But But just move it. Well, what does that supposed to mean? Well, he must be okay cuz he moved a little bit. That's where we're at? I wasn't sure about it. He's so far gone that you you're like questioning if he moves a little bit, he must be okay? Come on. I wasn't No. So, where did that stuff come from? Where did that come from? Didn't your mother send you messages that said, "I saw him move. I saw him move." Did she send that to you? Yes. And what does that mean to her that it's fake? Is this fake to you? No. Is your brother lying on the floor dead? Is that fake to you? No. You know what? It didn't matter to her at all. You know why didn't she shed a single tear the whole day I was there? Your mom. Did you see her cry a real tear? Yes. I saw a whole bunch of fake. You know what my job is to see? Fake. You know what I saw a whole bunch of? Fake. Because at the end of the day, this, your brother, he's gone. That's a problem for her. That's gone. She never was trying to solve this problem. She was never trying to make him into this perfect person because she's smart enough to know that isn't going to happen. Sadly, Timothy's story is far too common. Many special needs children are treated in such a way because their family finds them inconvenient. He's never going to be you. He's never going to be Gabriel because he has too many problems. He's not going to be that. She's smart enough to know that. That's how we ended up here. The smartest woman in the room took advantage of you. And she asked you to do these things over and over and over again. This is the woman you're sitting there saying she cares so much. Does she really though? She asked you to handcuff your brother, pour hot sauce in his mouth. She asked you to pour hot sauce on his penis. Your mother asked you to do those things cuz she cares so much? She put you in that spot. And now you're right in the middle of an investigation in which your brother died. And this is criminal. This is a crime. Did your brother deserve to die? No. Should he be dead right now? No. Is he dead for by the choices of others? Yeah. Who made those choices? Who made the choices for him to be dead right now? Did you make some of those choices? Yeah. Who made those choices? Mom. Yeah. She did, didn't she? That's what's real. I don't know what's real. Now, did you do some of the things she asked you to do? Yes. Absolutely, you did. Because I felt I I felt that she knew what was best. Does that put you in the wrong? Doing those things? Does it? It does. It puts you in the wrong. Yeah. It does cuz But you fashioned him as best you just said that. I heard you say it. I thought you knew it. I thought maybe maybe said I thought maybe it would something somewhere would change. But Cuz she's smart, right? And she knows what she's talking about and she loves you all of you. And she cares all about all of you. But when you really step back and you look at yourself and Gabriel and Timothy were all three of you treated the same? No. Was none of you treated like who really cares? Who really cares? Punish Punish him. Punish him. Punish him. Ice bath, hot sauce, handcuffs closet. He lived in a closet. You said he spent most of his day in a closet peeing on himself pooping on himself eating only bread sometimes only with hot sauce on it. This is the hottest hot sauce you can get your hands on. That's life. He's probably relieved that he's dead. He's probably relieved because that's torture. He was tortured by you guys for months. Tortured. Why? Cuz he was different than you guys? Because he couldn't follow directions? Because he couldn't follow your mom's rules? Is that why? He stole food? Is it that big of a deal? Is Is his food worth killing somebody over? No. That's what happened here. Over stealing food and not following rules. You said that your dad's very controlling. You know who was also very controlling? Your mom's controlling you without you even knowing it. That's narcissistic. Your mom controlled you and you had no idea. You thought all this stuff you were doing was for the for for your brother. This is going to be better for my brother. This is what's best for my brother. Those are the things you came in here saying. Is that real? I don't know what is or isn't anymore. It doesn't seem real to me. Doesn't seem real to me at all. Did you ever hit your brother? I did. Yeah. But every time I would come back, I would apologize. The bruises on him weren't you know me. I know that much. If If it was anywhere, it was here. And never It was a slap here, but that was from when he was a child. I think I'm not sure which parent it was in his crib. He was laying there while his head was still fresh. Okay. And so that scar on the back of his head is That's an old scar. Very. Basically birth. When was the last time you hit Probably the first one I was trying to see if he would respond. Okay. Where was that at? I was while he was I think in the tub. But where did you hit him in the head? I think the side of his face. Yeah. Did you ever like to smack him or what kind of hit? It was sometimes this and I think once or twice it was It wasn't like full force, but it was like to try to see if he would respond. Did you ever punch him in the head? No. Cuz there's some evidence that somebody hit him in the head pretty hard. Where? This is This is a skull. Cuz I I know that that would never I would never try to actually injure him. At those moments get that injury in his head? How did he get that injury in his head? Did you hit him once a little harder than you maybe wanted to? Mhm. It's okay, man. Yeah. I think I remember I kept trying to pick him up after he after I got him out of the closet and I think at one point he actually scratched where my I pulled away and he fell and I think it happened several times like he was trying to get out of my reach. Yeah. When was kind of the last time you like really hit his head hard or something? Um I think it was I was trying to get him into the bath to for the oats bath thing. I missed? Yeah. He sort of I thought he squirmed, but maybe it was maybe something else. I don't know, but he slipped out of my hand and hit his head on the ground, but What part of his head did he hit? Um It wasn't the sides. I don't I don't know the exact region because by the time I heard the thud, I I was literally about to turn around cuz I had to stop for a moment to [ __ ] breathe. I was frustrated. I was Yes. Listen, I was I was I I never wanted Those are just excuses. Okay. The injury to his head that's not what killed him, okay? Okay. But what what killed him was not eating. He starved. But when we talk about this injury to his head, I just need to know the truth of what really happened cuz what you're telling us doesn't make a lot of sense. What really happened to his head? I The the the medical people there's a medical examiner who comes in and they say that's not That isn't what caused it, but that was there. They just know that that's there. So I'm just curious what really happened. I don't know. If those were like a hard punch or something when you were mad at him Did you ever If If I ever was smacking over the head, it was with an open palm. I never closed my fist. Maybe like on this one day when you were No. There was never one time where you hit him in the head. No. With a fist. I would long to, but I would I would walk away because I knew that I would if I did something like that, I would not only regret it, but if I knew that if something like this had happened, then I never would have been able to apologize. All right. So what Where did he hit his head at? You have to remember. You said it was just a couple days ago. Where did he hit his head at? I think each time I'm not sure. I know at one point I think once it was on a side another time it was the other side. I'm not sure if there was any in the back, but Okay. Cuz Where is it Where you hit his head at? Like Normally it was right here for me. Okay. Just either either side a little Were you ever so mad that you were so mad that maybe you lost a little bit and hit him harder than that? Because this is a very This is a serious injury. I wouldn't hurt him. That like you guys No. Nothing Even if it was for a purpose. I think if it was an accidental that it happened, I don't think I would have even realized at this point until someone had probably told me. Did you ever see your mom hit him? No. She never raised a hand to him that I know of. Okay. Did she ever ask you to hit him or ask you to punish him physically? No. Or hurt him like with fists or anything like that? No. So this What was What's your best guess on how this injury happened to his head? This is a severe injury, so it's not It's not this. It's not a slap. Not even a hard slap. Um If it wasn't for making his head on the floors and What part of his head hit the floor? That's what I don't understand. It could It might have been the back at one point, but the thing is that when he was on the ground, his head would constantly loll to the side. So if it Was it after during after How long was it like that where it lolled to the side? After he hit his head or And barely Well, after the moments after this is when he fell. Can you think of anything else about this? I don't know. I just feel like I could have done something. I should have put my foot down at some point. I love him so much. What would have happened to him if you had put your foot down? What would have happened if you put your foot down? I don't know. Maybe something would have been different. Maybe he would still be alive. I just I promised him before the whole thing with mom and dad did her mom and dad did I protected him, but I failed so hard. I failed. I must have missed a second clip. Do you need anything? Do you need to use the restroom? Do you need anything to drink or water? Do you have something I could snack on? Yeah, I'll try. I have slight hypoglycemia problems. So what kind of snack? Like chips. I don't know. I don't know what's okay with me. Really anything that helps. Maybe chips, yeah. Something with salt Ferguson admits to striking Timothy, but claims that he didn't intend to him. Given everything else he has done, the detective probably doesn't believe him. Paul Ferguson was found guilty of first-degree child abuse and is sentenced to 30 to 100 years in prison. Upon sentencing, the judge declared that he believed Ferguson was a psychopath and would be a danger if he were to be released. If you enjoyed this video and want to support me further, there's a Patreon link in the description where you can do just that. Thank you for watching. Stay safe.