[Applause] [Music] This is Mag Maxum and what you're about to witness is one of the most sinister sounding intros to a trailer to one of the greatest epics ever produced in the history of television. There's more because you are going to see it as well. >> Welcome to Facts or Frauds. [Music] This is case number 25 00791 F1 people state of Michigan versus Timothy Dansby on behalf of people morning your honor behalf of Mr. Williams. >> Okay, Mr. Gy, good morning. Uh, sir, come on. Can you get up and can he move? No. All right. So, Mr. Dansby today is that the uh adjourn date for a probable cause conference on this charge of this was a retail fraud um first degree and so last time Mr. Ghana, you needed some video discovery and you wanted to review all that. So, did you get a chance to do that? >> Okay. Well, he didn't apparently, but did you look >> I I did not I have not received it. >> Okay. What happened with the video discover? >> I wasn't sure. >> I don't see it even in my file. So, uh what I what you can't tell is actually bits. I'll get it today instead. >> Oh, all right. Oh, things might have slowed down since she was off. Okay. So, you want to journ again? A brief one? I don't know. How long would you like me? >> How long would you like it to be? >> Um, we have a trial next week starting in front of Judge Ro, but it's only going to be a couple day trial. >> Okay. >> Okay. Sir, put your hand down. Put your Put your hand down. Okay. The following week. Yes. >> What do we have the following week? Not next week, but the following week >> or just another >> another PCC 8th at 9:10. >> How about September 8th, 9:30? >> We'll get to you just a second, sir. The only problem I have is because the mic trial starts on the 4th. It should be done the 5th, but it Oh, that's Judge Ro's criminal call. So, that' be >> So, he won't be doing it during that >> trial. That's right. That >> September 8th at 9:30 then. Now, what do you want to say, sir? >> I want to say that uh first of all, this supposed to be not acting from German being forced on I being represented. So I don't know why he journed something where he's not even I mean represent I mean >> where you going to get the information >> I don't get the information why >> sir bring to me and review >> okay the prosecutor ain't going to bring nothing to the jail >> what the law said going by what he did >> I don't know what law you looking at okay but the prosecutor is not going to bring >> off an exclusionary member of the bar by the constitutional right they have a right to be their prosecute myself about constitution under constitution which is the highest law of land court I also know that these indiv what they're doing don't matter they not on your not on your case >> sir I'm not trying any facts okay >> number one >> represented by legal lawyers not personally personate Okay, stop. You finished now? >> No, I'm not. You told me stop. I'm not finished. >> Okay. Well, you're finishes first. I'm concerned. So, this what I got to say. First of all, we don't allow anyone to practice law that's unlicensed. >> Not true. >> Okay. Okay. Let me just >> I don't do it in this courtroom. >> Okay. Sir, would you stop talking of Wolf? I have to have you taken out of here cuz you don't listen. You don't listen. >> I have a constitutional right to represent Charles. >> Now, what I'm trying to tell you is this. The prosecutor can't bring you a video and the video could be the crux of the case. We don't know what it shows. Your lawyer would be derelicted >> and his the person here that's okay. Well, this the lawyer that's here that's been assigned. Okay. So, he would be derelct and duty if he didn't get it to look at it and to try to ask. >> Well, he doesn't have it yet, sir. And then he can ask and >> I'm asking for this due process. >> Okay. First of all, first of all, >> there's no basis. There's no basis. >> The motion's denied. There's no there's no basis to dismiss the case. Okay. Not right now. Now there is not. And so he can ask to bring his computer into the facility to show you the video if he gets it, which apparently the prosecutor didn't have it. This is the normal prosecutor. >> Li on me. >> Okay. I'm like tri for the court. >> Okay. Well, I'm just explaining to you. I don't know who lied or who didn't. >> He got money. Never got one because they never intended to go this far. They didn't think that I was going to go this far. Think that I thought I come back down. >> Okay. Well, guess what? >> Something I did not do. >> Nobody asked you to take a first of all, >> I'm telling you what to ask. >> First of all, he he might ask you if you wanted to. I don't know what he said. That's between you and him. But the bottom line is he doesn't even have all the information to make a determination >> when he >> Okay. I don't know. I said, "I don't know what he asked you." That's between you and your lawyer. That's not I don't get involved with that. So, what I'm trying to tell you is nobody's trying to get you to plea. At least not here. Cuz I'm not taking a plea on this particular case. Even though I probably could take a felony plea, I'm not doing that. We're just here to see what's going to happen as far as the discovery and if we need to hold a preliminary exam or not. It's not going and it's not going to be case because this supposed to been my examination. You're not >> This was not your exam. This was a probable cause conference date. >> All right. We haven't set the exam yet cuz we haven't gotten all the information to set it. So, we're going to go ahead and get the information and we'll make a determination if we're going to set it just in the next week when we come back. So, that's what we're going to do. And you need to calm down. Okay. Fine. Let's continue. I'm trying to be right. I already know I get a little little. >> Yes. >> When I know that I >> But then the truth will come out. >> About none of that because these people are trying to pro. >> The truth will come out, sir. >> And I'm not going for it. >> Okay. >> On with that. >> All right. >> Thank you. >> We Thank you. >> All right. We'll see you back here on the 8th 9:30. That's another PCC6 number 2500791 FY state of Michigan versus Timothy Dansby >> behalf of the people. >> Okay46 standing in for the attorney of record founding and appearing on behalf of Mr. Timothy Dansby who stands to my right. Mr. Dansby, can you please state your full name for the record? >> Dave. >> All right, Mr. Dansby. Uh we're back. Do you mind having Miss Miller stand in for uh Mr. Ganic for today's hearing? >> That's up to the court. I still reserve my right. I mentioned all other previous but today's process. It's been going where it's going. So continue doing what it's doing, but I still >> Does that mean you don't mind her standing in? >> Okay. You know what? I'm not going to play that game. That's a yes or no question. Okay. Do you want to adjourn it and see who it is? You have a right to have the council of record present if you want to be here instead of Miss Miller. And this is basically for a uh probable cause conference and the journ date on a retail fraud first degree when we had adjourned it before for your lawyers to get video discovery. So do you mind her standing in or no? >> Okay. So you don't want a lawyer, sir? I'll release them if you don't want one. Nobody's going to force you to have a lawyer to help you. If you want to do it all yourself, do it. Do you want me to release the lawyers? >> I'll pay for him soon, right? >> Do you want a lawyer? Yes or no? It's a real easy question, sir. It don't take all day. >> Listen here. Okay. If you don't answer the question, I'm going to release the lawyers if that's what because you've been complaining the whole time about I didn't ask for no state attorney. I don't want nobody. I don't know who whatever you going to do. No, I'm not doing anything. I didn't appoint the person in the first place. I didn't do it. >> Okay. So, you don't want them. Is that what you're telling me? Uh, do you want them? Yes or no? I'm saying uh listen, this is not going to be a matter of semantics. Do you want one or not? Cuz nobody's going to force a lawyer on you. I'll be happy to handle this case with you by yourself doing whatever you can do to help yourself if that's what you want. >> I still ain't got my discovery. So, do you want a lawyer? >> I'm sorry. I'm standing on the same thing I stand >> I don't even know what that is. Whatever your claim is, I don't know. >> Okay. Let's release the lawyers. All right. >> Now, you're not getting another one. I'm just telling you. I reserve the right for judiciary and judiciary on legitimacy of the court. >> Uh you're not getting another lawyer. Okay. >> I said I >> I don't know whatever court you preserve what you want. I don't mind >> any other court and the legitimacy of the court. >> Sir, whatever whatever you want to do can do. >> But since the since you don't want a lawyer, I can't by law give you one. So >> that was three three three three three three three three three three three three three three three three three three three three three three three uh Germans ago >> guess what so Lord haven't you given me the thing that I need >> okay sir sir nobody can give you anything but a piece of paper we can give they can give you that they can give you the police report they cannot give you the videos cuz there's no way for you to watch them >> make sure that the law fair at the court order that the law fair court either have a clerk or somebody Was that the information from the city video? I don't know what I don't know. Maybe you just don't want them, >> sir. I don't even know. >> I don't know anything about your law library wherever. All I know is these vid these video files. They're files. They come on a computer. >> So law library should somebody should be giving people the law heads up to make. >> Well, you know what? That's up to you to figure out how you going to get her. I'll let the court I'll let the second court figure pick figure it out. Second circuit pick judge second court. We let them figure it out. I'm straight. >> Well, I I I ain't doing nothing. >> You ready for me to take them? >> Would you like uh Mr. B to file any sort of motion for order to have him withdraw? >> No. I'm going to write an order out right now. Releasing him >> and so we will reset this I guess. I don't know why we got him. We could actually bring him back out. He could decide what he wants to do today. >> I do know that um he is wanting to have his preliminary examination. That is okay. >> Well, let's set it for an exam then. How many witnesses is Mrs. Shockley? All right, just give me one. >> All right, you want to wait for your order, you can. >> Okay, thank you. >> One witness, >> right? >> Yeah. One witness and one defendant that's going to make it way longer than it's supposed to be. So, factor that in. >> What's available October 3rd at 10:30? >> All right. So October 3rd at 10:30 is the exam date. And could you ask Mr. IC to make sure he gets a discovery what he has over to this uh person. >> Believe that paper discovery has already been given to his see if the court or if the jail will allow us to give any sort of um drive or anything like that that encloses the videos. Okay. This is this record I would advise the court the discovery the AV discovery in this matter is 99% police body on camera which has the defendant in it and there's only one in store video of the defendant walking past that so what >> oh good just make sure he sees it just some some of your best uh efforts on that wasn't. >> So, this is going to be case number 25S 00791 FY people of the state of Michigan versus Timothy Dansby. >> What's your name? >> All right. Mr. Dan Duke afternoon, Mr. Shockley place your appearance on >> behalf of people. >> All right. Today is the date scheduled for a preliminary examination. This is on one count of retail fraud first degree. People prepare to proceed. >> Yes. >> All right. Any preliminary matters? >> Um did you assume to the court rule confirm that the defense still wishes to represent himself as this is a critical competing? >> I feel no. But do you still wish assume he did? >> Yeah. They just have to He He's just been asking all this time, would you want to represent yourself? You've been telling us all this time, do you want to represent yourself? >> I've been Yeah, I want to represent myself. >> Okay. So, you want to proceed today by yourself without a lawyer, right? >> Not before I let it be known that I still haven't received my full discovery. >> Well, what is the What haven't you received, sir? I haven't received I haven't had a chance to go over the vide tape because one of the witnesses in the vide tape that I know that when I was speaking to him and was and was saying let him know that look man put this stuff back on here because I chose I'm choosing not to buy here and I'm going someplace else. So it wasn't like I was trying to steal nothing but I told the guy that I want to make sure that he's being available to be questioned. >> I don't know who he's going to call. See this isn't a trial. So this is just your probable cause hearing. So the prosecutor has a very low threshold burden of proof. He don't have to put on every witness. He said he doesn't necessarily have to use the video. He might. And if you say the video means something else that creates a question of fact that would go to trial for the tri fact to resolve. And of course you get an opportunity to question about the video in depth at trial. Also, I'd like to uh mention to the fact that you know what I'm saying that it's it's been a delay because I I I don't know who these people been coming up. I've been telling the court that I've been wanting to represent myself. >> Well, you you've been representing yourself since the last time. >> Well, at the county jail, they said without the court allowing them to know that I was representing myself, it was certain information I couldn't get. They would not get it like the Michigan court rules rules evidence. You know what I'm saying? For as part of >> I've never heard of the court having to tell the jail you're representing yourself. >> I've never heard of that. >> The new technology they used to have a law library you could go. But now you can do everything over the computer. You got to do a request. In order for fulfill your request, they have certain criteria that got to show ahead of time. >> Well, sir, I don't know anything about what the jail's criteria is. And and also uh know I'd asked know for a standby lawyer. >> Well, they don't do that. >> Well, but from my understanding in from previous experience, y >> what what what >> from >> what year was that? >> Federal from federal circuit court and from other court. >> Federal circuit court. >> No circuit court. They have >> this is the state system. >> There has been opportunity. would have st instances where they could confer certain information that the prosecutor might not want to give to me because he might feel even better than me or something cuz he's good that doesn't >> listen listen Mr. dancing. We can't keep >> allows me to be >> No, of course. Of course you got >> That's not true. You have a right to represent yourself and you do have a right to get discovery. But what you can't do is come in here on the day of the hearing claiming that oh now you want to stand by counsel. >> Okay. But I'm telling you, >> I'm just saying what from man you always been uh stand by C has been set. >> I don't know what your experience is. I just know what Michigan and >> I don't know when you got >> a wealth of information. >> Okay, sir. >> The Michigan the Michigan indigent defense rules. They have a whole new program that's been started a few years ago. So we used to do standby counsel and anything like that. We used to do that all the time when the court was appointing. Now they have a whole system. They don't pay for that. They say if the defendant wants a lawyer, fine. But there's no quote standby lawyer in their view. So they don't pay for that. I didn't make that rule. the person that >> I couldn't verify it if I wanted to without >> well the person that >> without without the the people in the jail who's running the law library information able to send me the information that I need because without them having their quote >> okay what information >> sir what information do you think you need just for a preliminary exam >> no I said for Michigan I end defense appointment. >> So then you said it used to give standby console. >> I said we did before that system was created. >> I want I didn't change the update on the system. Yeah. >> Okay. But that has nothing to do with this court prove the evidence. >> Your honor, I'm going to just so I can expedite this um and to satisfy the defendant at the circuit court level. the circuit court has the budget and the ability and the staff to appoint him stand by councel once he gets up there and once we finish this hearing he may be up there and he can make that request then and I'm sure the circuit court will have no problem immediately assigning him an attorney to advise him as he represents himself as far as the people are concerned the court was going to comply with these freely and voluntary relinquish his right to an attorney may I call my first >> so the court so yeah I like to also state that I still haven't received my discover And my date was postponed because of some guy who said he was my attorney. I did an extra 30 days. An extra 30 days. >> Well, if you keep this up, >> that's my attorney. You >> I wasn't >> You going to be here another 30 days? Do you want me to journ this case again? >> No, I don't want to talk. I'm really actually have dismissed. No. The simple fact that >> we're not doing that. Okay. For or ask for a personal bond because I've been have my case on other people's Sir, you you're the one that asked for new lawyers or no or no lawyers? >> Ask for any new lawyer cuz I never accepted the first. Okay. >> I have never signed for an appointment of an attorney from the very beginning even at >> Okay, sir. Well, we going to proceed with your preliminary examination without a lawyer. So, you should be happy today that you don't have one. And then when you get to the circuit court, ask them to give you a lawyer. That's He just said they have a budget for that. >> Don't give me my discovery. >> What discovery don't you have? >> Same tape. >> What tape? >> Yeah, I'm going to play the tape for him uh today. Anyways, there's no right to it. There's there's not even a right to discovery before preliminary exam technically underneath the court. I mean, we deal with this all the time. So, this is just an intermittent proceeding. It's not going to affect anything. Um, as you know, attorneys don't even ask questions a lot of times during preliminary exams because it creates a question, >> but they certainly don't call. They might ask questions, but they they don't call witnesses. >> They don't not all situations. It all preliminary. >> Okay. >> Have a seat, sir. If you unless you want to stand up for the whole hearing first, >> people go to the same. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Mr. Shockley, are you ready? >> I am ready. >> Okay. Raise your right hand. Dismly swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth. >> Yes, sir. >> All right. Thank you. Have a seat. And Mr. Shackley, whenever you're ready. >> Uh, sir, when you are ready, will you please state and spell your name for the record? >> Yes, it's Robert Sam. Would be Ets Ms. >> Who is your employer? >> Meer. >> What is your job title with Meer? >> Asset protection team. >> Asset protection team lead. >> Yes, sir. And uh how long have you been employed in that capacity by learning? >> Uh since January of 2025. >> Did you receive any specialized training to have that title of that role? >> Yes. >> And what do you do? What kind of training? >> Uh so it's a multitude. So over years Wicklander uh certified um and then different courses in uh asset detection and policy related that kind of stuff. Are >> those courses designed to help you detect um retail frauds or patterns of retail frauds? >> Yes. Um, next question. Um, were you employed in that capacity on July 26, 2025 around 5 5:30 p.m.? >> Yes, sir. Okay. >> And so, do you work at a specific buyer store or multiple stores? Uh, I'm assigned to the one in Southfield. >> Is that located at 28800 Telegraph Road? >> Yes. City of Southfield? Yes. County of Oakland? >> Yes. >> Um, on that day, around that time, did you identify a um retail theft in progress? >> Yes. >> And how did you identify that? >> Um, in this particular case, it was just rapid selections of uh of similar merchandise. >> What do you mean rapid selections? Uh so one of the indicators of theft is uh grabbing merchandise with uh without looking at price without appearing to look at price side that kind of thing. >> And how did you see this occurring? >> Uh on the floor >> on on were you physically on the floor or were you watching cameras? >> Sorry I was physically on the floor. >> Did you follow this individual? >> I did. >> Uh as he was selecting items. >> Correct. >> Do you see that individual you following presently in the courtroom? I do. >> Would you please point and identify an article of clothing he is wearing? >> Uh it's the uh over to my left and he's wearing like a blue uh shirt with a white t-shirt. >> Your honor, may the record reflect the proper identification of the defendant? >> Yes. So, >> uh upon following this individual um did at one point he come to the point of sale? >> He did. Okay. Was that before at any point did he try to walk out before coming into those kind of Sale? >> Uh, no. >> Was he did he have a cart or was he concealing these items on his person? >> Uh, it was a carton. >> Was that cart full? >> Yes. >> Oh. Upon him going to the point of sale, what did you just so we put, you were at the point of sale when he got there? >> I was. Yes. >> And what did you see him do at that point? >> Um, he went up to a cashier um and myself and asked where the bathroom was. Was that before or after the cash register? >> Uh, that was it's kind of at the same time. It's like at a um it's like a it's like a giant area where there's like selfch checkckouts. >> Are these selfch checkouts? >> Yes. Is there a like a long looping line to the selfch checkout? >> Correct. >> Okay. Uh did he still have the cart with him? >> Uh he did. So he left the cart u actually by me uh and then he went to the restroom. >> Okay. >> And what did he do? Did he come out of the restroom? He did. What did he do upon coming out of the restaurant? >> He grabbed the cart and and proceeded towards the uh the opposite side of the store, which would be the grocery side. >> Okay. And what did he do upon getting to the grocery side? >> Um he pushed the cart out um exiting um exiting the store without anything. >> Did you say he pushed the cart out? Did he Is there a double door to Meer? >> Yes. >> Did he enter a double door vegetable? >> That's Oh, vegetable. Yeah. >> Okay. Got it. Okay. Go ahead. >> Yes. So, it's the um it's basically what it is. It's a it's opening with um EAS towers and then you push past those EAS towers. >> What is the EAS tower? >> Uh electronic article surveillance that detects the tags that the merchandise protection tags on merchandise the thing that beeps when he >> did they beep? >> Uh none of these have tags. So, no. >> Okay. >> Did you um stop him at that point? >> Yeah. >> Did he say anything to you upon stopping it? He said I I I can't recall exactly what he said, >> but he did say something. >> He did. >> Okay. And what did he do upon you confronting? >> Um he walked past me and then went out the u the doors store to the on the side in the parking lot. >> Did he abandon his car or did he try to take his car with? >> He abandoned it. >> Um did you retrieve his cart? >> I did. >> Were you able to scan the items that were contained within the cart? >> Yes. Upon scanning this item, was a proceeding produced? Uh, it was. Yeah. May I approach the witness one? So, I take a second look at what what I just handed you. >> What is that? >> Uh, it's a receipt from the fairly accurately the items you scan from the part. >> Yes. Has that receipt been edited in any way to your knowledge? Follow it up. People will go to that people's exhibit one. >> Show it to him. >> Okay. >> Okay sir. That is people's proposed exhibit one. Hello. >> Well, he's offering it. Is there an objection? >> Okay. No objection heard. Admitted approach and publish. >> Yes. >> Sir, does uh my stand were those working operational that day? >> They were. >> And did um upon him leaving the store, did we contact law enforcement? Yeah. >> Did law enforcement come to your location? >> Um they uh they caught him um like in the um they went towards Bulma, made a right. I'm sorry. I don't know if it's east or west but made a right there >> and then they came. >> Okay. So to answer my question, law enforcement didn't come to your location. Yes. >> Upon them coming to your location, did you show them video for the incident? >> Yes. >> Um previously to you taking the stand, did I show you what's on the splash bar? >> Yes. is what's on the splash of the videos from that day. Yes. Uh people move to me people's progress exhibit two >> s any objection >> people's propos 2 is the camera footage from correct and that's the same footage we turned over police. Yes. I I object to the fact John I haven't had not have a chance to go over take previous to the examination. You know what I'm saying? I like to state for the record that we being able to go there wouldn't be part of our discovery. And since Proton said I guess his word I guess he's making president that you don't have to give. >> But why don't we do this sir? Let's play the video without admitting it so you can watch it. Then if you have an objection, you can lodge your objection at that time. >> Step out. >> Who is he? >> Why should he step out? He's already >> He's already seen it. >> But he ain't seen the one I'm looking at. He might be making no difference. >> No, we're not. He don't have to step out. We're going to show him you the video. >> Go ahead, sir. There's your video. >> That's great. That's great. >> You said you haven't >> video. That's I was there. I was >> Well, you said you wanted to see the video. >> I was press when either one way or the other. Are you objecting to the video? Yes or no? >> I don't know if it's the whole video or not. >> Okay. So, the video. >> Go ahead. Play it. >> Sir, if you could turn around and look at the screen. Is this um one of the videos you provided to >> being issues? The video for him or for me? We're showing it to you, but he's gonna tell him, >> but he's gonna identify what it is. >> I mean, if it's if it's my time for me to watch the video, then I watch the video. When it's his time to ask him a question, then he can watch the video. >> Let's have him identify what it is he's showing. Let's at least do that. >> Okay, let's do that. Go ahead, M. Chapley. >> Sir, is this a video? You turn it over to Southfield Police. >> Yes. Is that actually you in the video? >> Yeah, that's uh being right back. >> Okay. >> All right. No more questions. Just let him watch it. >> Wait, this is at the grocery exit view. This is at the 17 minute 17 hour 53 minute mark. So, was that you walking out with the >> No questions. Just let him watch it first. >> Well, that's under that portion. >> H >> that's him leaving the sword. You want the sword? >> I can see what it is. Just let him watch it. Then we'll come back and and you can ask questions once he objects or I admit it or whatever cuz I'm not admitting it yet. Let me play the next video then. This video is later labeled GMC SEO overview to the 17 hour 47 minute mark. Okay. Okay. See, >> okay. Well, why don't you walk up there closer? I'm stopping the video at 17 hour 49 minute 12 seconds. >> Okay. Is that it? >> Yes. >> All right, sir. Head back to your seat. So that's the video that he seeks to admit. Do you have an objection? >> Yeah. >> What is that? >> Complete video of the incident that happened because at this juncture right there, I was going to the bathroom when I did not go past. >> Okay. But sir, that's that's an argument. You can make an argument later. The question is, is Mr. video that purportedly was taken by Meer cameras and turned in by this witness to the prosecutor's office? He said it that's what it is. Now you can question the validity of it, the length of it, how long it was, but doesn't affect the admissibility of it. >> So question you want >> Okay. So it's submitted. So you want to ask him some questions now, Mr. Shacklin? >> Yes. Go ahead. >> Just for the record. Um, sir, >> so you want to stand up and look again? >> He's going to take you. Thank you. >> He's going to go back to that first video. You got um and just so we're clear. So the time and date um on that video is correct, right? Yes. I'm going to play now. Um, grocery exit view of the 17 hour 52 apartment. I got look play that bet. So, is that you confronting the defendant? >> Yes, sir. >> When he was when he was walking onto the exit, is that after he abandoned his cart? >> Um, like this part right here to your tongue. Yes. Yeah. >> Where's the cart? >> Do you see the lady >> with the pink hat? >> Uh, no, man. The uh one with like the dark the dark pants and the black shirt right there. Meyer Alpha. >> Yes, ma'am. It's the cart is right there just in front of me. >> All right. Thank you. That's the problem. I'm trying to see you online. >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> Mr. Shy. Oh, >> at that point walked up with car. >> Yes. And one of your associates takes it away from him. >> Correct. >> Okay. And then you confront him. >> Oh, no. Wait. Hold on. You said somebody took the car away from Where is that at? >> You trying to show me that you think I'm ask >> Sir? Yeah. >> No, you don't ask the prosecutor questions. You have to ask the witness question. >> I don't have access to go over the rebrand tape myself. Yeah, because I haven't got I haven't been allowed copy of the tape or like >> it's not your time to ask the questions yet. You get a chance to >> I don't have a copy of the tape to go home. >> So, you don't need it. You watched it. Well, I'm watching it. I'm trying to verify what's going on. >> Okay. But you're not doing it right. You have to wait till he asks the witness questions. >> Okay. >> And then you'll get a chance to ask the witness questions, too. >> Sir, >> you see the person in the middle of that video that looks like got a like a white stripe at the bottom of his leg? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Is that the person you identified as the defendant? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Um, that card he had, he he appears to be holding it in his hand. Is that the card you took the items out and then scan to create that receipt which was people's in zip one? >> Yes, sir. Where's the car? >> It's right there at the entrance by that lady in the blue shirt and pants. She's holding it. >> How did you get there? >> You were I think it >> sir. If you watch the video, it shows you he identified you pushing the cart and when it got to that part, they stopped you. Okay. >> And took the cart. >> Now, they took the car, but there was an individual. It was a young black male. >> Okay, sir. >> Hold on. >> But you're you're not testifying. >> It was a young I'm not testifying. >> Yes, you are. You're trying to tell us your story and this is >> I'm trying to tell you that the tape This is not the full tape. >> Okay. This is not the time. >> This is not the full tape. >> Okay, sir. There's not the full tape. I can even show half of the tape in the secret instead of showing the whole tape. From the time that I left from the time that I left the black parts with where I pay for the tape and walked there, there's a whole separate miss. So, where is the mention? >> You'll get a chance to ask him those questions. >> Well, how film if I can't show my >> You'll get a chance to ask the witness that question. I want to be able to see on. >> He's the one who says he made the tape and turned it in. He's the one who would know if there's a section missing or how he copied it. >> I should wait for that. >> Yes. >> Come on back. >> Mr. Shockley, are you done with this particular tank? >> Yeah. >> Just could you do me a favor? Roll it back to the very beginning of this where there's people coming out of that door on the left. I'mma tell you what to stop something. as well. See some gone. Well, yeah. Keep going. It's a bit Okay. Okay. Play it. Can you stop that right there? Mr. P. >> Where's the shock? >> When the was pushing that, sir. No, no, no. >> Okay. >> That's your turn. >> Okay. Okay. All right. Okay. >> You got to play it again when it's your turn. >> Okay. >> That the defendant leaves the store perhaps. >> Yes, girl. >> Okay. >> Now, are you going to have to play that overhead camera view? >> If you would like me to. >> I don't know what that was. If you need it, you can play it. That's part of this. That's what they do. That was 17 hour 47 minute. Sorry, I'm pausing the video for a second. Do you see yourself in the bottom left corner of that video? Please, >> first of all, what area of the store is this video depicting? >> Your honor, this is in the GM side. So this would be the north side of the store. >> Okay. So service desk to the left. >> Yes, ma'am. So if uh >> and that's the where's the out is are the doors depicted in this? No. >> Can I go closer to see if you >> So you want to go back this way? >> Okay. Um I went towards the door is he takes the car here and then goes this way down that long aisle and then it goes into the grocery which you saw right there. >> Okay. So that's what this is depicting. And so that's like the open area where you come in. >> That's no cash registers right there. >> I'm right there. Walking back up there. >> So this is your entrance right here. That >> right up there at the top. Is that him? >> Right there. Is that him? Don't ask any questions yet. >> Not yet. >> You got to wait till it's time to cross exam. This is direct exam. Why did you decide to just stand there? >> Um, so um cuz he's in the bathroom and that was his carton right there. >> Yeah. So at that point that's all I cared about with the carton. And you speak, huh? >> Yeah, I think >> it's Yeah, good couple minutes. >> What time is it? Doesn't show on the full screen. Got the the right there going to get his start. >> Yes, sir. again. I thought you We see the sound. Mr. Sh, can you show him the timer? >> This is that point the time when the play frame was 17 hours 52 minutes. The grocery school the grocery exit view when I started playing that video which is the last video we saw um was starting at 17 hours 53 minutes. Is it fair to say that he then took his car to that grocery exit? >> Yes. >> Okay. And that's where you stopped him. >> Correct. >> I don't uh What was the Do you remember what the value were? I've never seen um >> exhibit number one. >> Yeah. >> Says $39.99. Oh, I'm sorry. 20712. I was going to >> say I believe it's just over 200. >> Yeah, that was one item I was looking at. 20712. You can sit down. >> Okay. Are you finished? >> I'm done. >> Okay, sir. Crossexamination now. >> Okay. I'm help He can play it. >> Okay. Now, >> what do you want him to play? >> If this right here, if this right here, when when with self machines or walking towards the cash res where it would be taken in and you went that way. At which point did you start walking behind? Can you can't run? At which point was he was walking behind the let him know that you already called the police. >> I I don't understand. I'm sorry. I really don't understand your question. >> Okay. At one point when he put me put me back there put he left he came behind said the color was already part of police. >> Yes sir. >> Okay. Was that before or after he got close to a rescue? >> Uh that was after the exit. >> That was after the exit was here. >> No sir. It was uh the other >> after the exit of the store. >> Yes sir. After the exit store. >> So when he was walking this way. Can you show the state house? Can you show us can you show the state prosecution but pushing pushing the park see that screen? >> I want I want the video the park if it's all it's all on one camera. Can you zoom into the part where the defendant is pushing the cart going towards the other? >> This is the video you want to see. Correct. >> Yeah. He wants to see where he's pushing the cart going towards the other side of the store towards the groceries. If you can zoom in on it. I don't know if you can. >> You could see it better on the brush. So >> now where? Show us uh witness where he is in this view right here. >> I go. >> Yeah. Going up there. >> Right there. >> That's the cart and that's him. Okay. So, what was he doing at the scanner machine there? Did he scan anything? >> Yes, ma'am. He scanned one item and then put that same item back in his cart. Never offered payment. >> Okay. I have a question for you, M. What do you Did you Did you check that scan? I definitely did. >> And what did he say? I had one item up there. >> And what is the walk to their height? >> Don't recall cuz it didn't work. And so point to him there in that shot. He way down there. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Where the pointer is? >> Yes, ma'am. you approaching? >> No, sir. And who was the who was the other individual? The black young male. You'd have to show me which one. There was a couple over there. Thank you very [Music] But at that point when you when you spoke to the was there anybody up there that had a conversation I'm sure >> no was there another there were you and I were talking when you when you when you uh approach But now you send me head out the door. >> Yes, sir. So, there was there's three employees there total. So, myself, another employee, and then another employee. And then when you and I were talking, it's just uh it's just >> Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Where is the young male? It was a black guy right there. >> There's a black. >> Okay. Now, you say you come you come you come right here, right? >> Yes, sir. Can you can you show uh you go back to the top of the top? Okay. Right here. Right here. Can you go back to this part up here? Not another time. This part right here. Stop moving. Right there. You want that showing that part right there. Stop. What is this right here? >> That's the type. >> What's this right here? >> So, why is it not in this city? Why is this moving back now? Um it's the you see so that's the 40 those three that go to those I'm talking about this this time here and this time here why is you know 17 - 12 I know 13 - 12 time is the time okay can you go back to about three minutes but what I'm trying We got here Mr. M how >> Mr. Attorney you talking to the witness? >> The witness I'm >> Mr. The witness is Mr. Sammons. I don't know why I keep saying shock. >> That's a prosecutor. >> Hey I appreciate you talking to me. I'll take it. >> What so what at what juncture did you say you might would you like to come to the office? Uh it would be uh is it okay to go up? Yeah. >> You can always step up in the points. It would be right here s like right see those tallers just pass those to you to go past those towers. >> Yes sir. >> And and did they beat? >> No sir. >> Why not? >> Uh those towers are what they're called is electronic article surveillance. What they detect is u merchandise protection that's on products. Not all products have that merchandise protection. So, it'll only go off if one of those products that has merchandise protection. >> Okay. So, what So, hold on. Wait a minute. Stop. Can you go back? Go back one more time about another minute cuz what happened to the to the to the um Okay, go back. Go back. Go back. Okay. So, hold on. Go forward. cuz I'm trying to see which take which which is which. Okay, that's her stuff. He's going in with her stuff. He's coming out with his right. >> Yes, sir. >> So, this was never book. >> Yeah, it did. right to entities. >> So what happened to this disciplined? >> That would be uh the that the motion sir. >> So it never went past here. >> It did. You have to see it. You be able to see it, sir. >> Okay. I was talking about you said stop. You stop right there. Uh No problem. We got no baby. >> Okay. Right. Okay. This individual I think right. Who is this individual right here? >> That's another employee of >> Yeah. What's this now? >> Uh I don't know the last name. You heard this. >> Is he part of your team? >> My team? No. An employee of mine. >> Is that an employee of yours? So, um, he doesn't work under me. No, he's just an employee of Meer, but he's not on like my specific team. >> So, was you close enough conversation between him and the defendant? >> Your honor, if the defendant's done with the video, I would ask him to go back to his table. >> Are you done, sir? >> No, I done with the video because I'm trying to figure out, Mr. 17. >> How did you get the defendant thing? >> Yeah, that's um so I was following the defendant along the back aisle uh where I could keep it where I could watch while I'm walking. >> Okay. So, at which point did you you was walking behind him, do you when you was walking behind was you out the store? >> Uh I was never behind. I was always subsiding. >> No point. at this point. Now, now I do like to ask you a question. Um, now you saying that you know picking up items without checking the price going. >> Yes, sir. >> So, this is how you profile the individual who was coming in. >> Uh, no sir, we don't profile. What we look for is behaviors. So, >> profile behavior basically kind of like something. >> Okay. And also, okay. And also when he went to the scanning machine, you said you did did you go back and check the the the thing on the scanner machine seeing? >> I I didn't need to. I was at the where where I was. I could view every scanner and I could see as as it goes. >> So you seen the one thing get scanned, >> correct? >> And you seen the machine activated or do you know do you know if it actually be scanned? >> I don't know what you mean by activate. I apologize. When when you go through the can you try to scan it? >> Yes. >> It's >> Yeah, it'll beep and then something >> right. Did you hear it beep? >> I There's lots There's like stuff because it wouldn't work. All right. No further questions. >> Mr. Shackley, anything else? >> No. >> Sir, thank you so much. You may step down. Any other witnesses for the people? >> Thank you. All right. Um sir, >> do you have any witnesses? >> Typically the defense does not call witnesses at a preliminary exam. >> But do you have any witness? >> Like I said, um >> do you have any witnesses? >> Do I have I haven't had a chance with the witness that I would have liked to have gone. >> Okay. But you don't >> I I wouldn't get a chance cuz I never got a chance. >> Sir, you still got a chance at trial to call a witness. >> This is not a trial. All you going to do is create a question of fact. >> Okay. Wait, we're not at the argument. >> Stop. >> Mr. Shockley is going to make his motion. Go ahead, Mr. Ch. The defendant charge. Um, as you know, this is veto brought in the third degree enhance from a second to first over $200. The video shows in the testimony. Mr. Sam shows that he attempted to leave the store without making any um ability or offer to pay for those items. before we say no. Thank you. >> And what do you want to say by way of argument now sir? >> I'd like to say y that it's been such a long time I never had a chance to get the tape. You know what I'm saying? And I also like to state >> you went over that tape ad nauseium today. Sir >> like that tape the the prosecutor had to take so long but that's not exact. I can't exactly show what happened cuz that individual was walking behind. I don't know how you did that. detect that's why I was looking for the tag and also I like again just for the moment you empire for impromptu for the simple fact the days and the time that it took even though the prosecutors did show his willingness to show the tape he's not giving me a chance to go over the table since we been postponing this. I haven't had a chance to even call and I still to this joint don't know the witness name of the individual that >> Sir, you got plenty of time to find the witness and call them for trial. This is not a trial. >> How am I going to do it if I can't get the paperwork? >> What paperwork? >> I can't get I can't get the the discovery mostly for discovery. You got a you got a folder full of paperwork. >> A police report, right? >> I'm talking about y'all the paperwork in order to get the discovery to get >> I don't know what paperwork you talking about. >> Breath of discovery the motion to write the motion for the discovery. >> No court rules that determines that the Michigan. You don't know the Michigan court rules that determines that the prosecutor motion. >> No. I No. You know what? I have no idea even what you're talking about at this point. You got the police report which gives you all the information. >> And for the last I'm quit talking like on record. >> I'm just I'm just going to stop talking. You just you can take over this whole courtroom. Go ahead and you got about three minutes to do it. >> All right. for the last statement in uh I like what straight from the court rule still that the court never actually shows the uh this authority to page individual cuz I don't know if this prosecution court even have license to practice for >> okay we're not going down that road me listen >> you don't have to right >> let me tell you something you don't stop when I tell you to Stop. I'm going to take you out of here. We're not getting into whether somebody has a license to practice law. You are to you are to contain >> it's a legitimate argument. >> Listen, you're to contain your argument to the facts. >> And it seems a fact. The fact >> on this case that's on the record association is not a licensed agency. So if you got a bar practice without a license which the constitution of the United States and state >> sir I'm not going to listen to that state cities or township municipalities contrary to the >> which is the highest law of the land for that place on the record >> it's placed on it. Now you're done. The defendant is charged with a retail fraud. All the elements were met in this matter for retail fraud first degree. The testimony clearly established that the defendant took property of the store that was offered for sale. It showed by way of testimony that he took property off the shelf in a random manner. All the testimony was all the same things without looking really at the prices and sort of tags. seemed like that he moved the property. Well, he put it in a basket and walked all around the store from one side to the other. Uh third, he intended to steal. That's a question of fact. Uh as to whether or not he intended to permanently deprive the store without the store's consent. However, it was clear from the video shown that he walked from one entrance to the other entrance without paying for anything and was attempting to push his cart through the entrance when he was stopped by loss prevention from doing so. That's a question of fact to why he was doing it was the intent to permanently deprive or not. And this really happened inside the store while it was open to the public and without the consent of Meyer. Uh the items were tallied up by loss prevention and came to $27.12. So clearly uh that's enough to satisfy the court that the retail fraud uh did occur. And of course, there's an allegation that he um apparently had uh a prior conviction April 17th, 1989 uh for retail frag circuit court. So that's a sentencing issue and that's enough to bind it over on the first degree and continue to bond Mr. Shockley here as you're presented back. His bond is continued. I don't >> make sure you get a license to practice law, please. >> And and don't uh present doctor video. The video's been doctorred and altered. >> Hi. Well, that's just about it. So, so thanks for watching and we'll see you again real soon. >> And thanks for hanging out with us on Facture Frauds. Make sure you hit the thumbs up button, you're subscribed, and ring that bell. Also, leave a comment in the comments section. Tell me what you think. Fact. Fact. Actually, I wish you could see the studio floor right now. There's nowhere more fascinating after a show. Everyone's so busy like like bees or white Anglo-Saxon Protestants. And a huge thank you to all of our Facts or Frauds channel members. [Music] If you'd like to become a member, click on the link in the description or click join right next to subscribe. There's electricians all rolling up their cables. Whoops. Sorry guys. And there's the sound technicians unplugging all the microphones. Okay, if I keep mine on for a minute, Na'vi, stand up. >> Now, if you're still hanging out, thank you. I appreciate you all. Why not hit that thumbs up button? Make sure you're subscribed, ring the bell, and leave a comment in the comment section. Tell me what you think. Until next time, I'll see you soon. [Music] And of course, there's lots of the producers friends all excited, waiting to meet the stars, and generally getting in everybody's way, just like our producer. Oh, we don't mind. Oh, and not forgetting the prop guys. They're busy striking the set. That's an interesting little point there. Striking. That's a word we all use in the biz for dismantling the set, taking it apart, unscrewing things, releasing safety catches, that sort of thing.