The lying's been a problem. Um, he's >> All teenagers lie. >> tripped down the stairs a couple of times, like just half the flight. And then later he came back to me, admitted he did it intentionally. But I've asked him, I'm like, "Are you trying to hurt yourself?" He's like, "No, I just want to see what would happen." That's the way he a lot of time he he wants to see what would happen if he does stuff. >> A teenage boy is dead. And the people calmly describing his torture are his own family. What you're about to hear sounds less like an interrogation and more like people discussing household chores after murdering a child. >> She asked you to handcuff your brother, pour hot sauce in his mouth. She asked you to pour hot sauce on his penis. Your mother asked you to do those things. Cuz she cares so much? She puts you in that spot. And now you're right in the middle of an investigation in which your brother died. >> And before this interrogation was over, detectives would uncover one of the most disturbing family abuse cases they'd ever seen. On July 6th, 2022, police arrived at a home near Marshall Road and East Hialeah Road to investigate what was initially reported as a suspicious death. >> Hello, ma'am. I'm Officer Stefanik. Right now we got some people coming over to talk to you, okay? Do you have another son inside the house? >> I have two. Two. >> Are they sleeping still right now? >> One of them is yeah. The 20-year-old's awake. >> He's 20? >> No, the 20-year-old's awake. >> Okay. >> He's He's been He's been wearing really loose clothes the last couple of weeks. >> He's really skinny. >> He's really skinny and I didn't notice till this morning cuz he wouldn't like I asked him if he's okay and he would not answer me. Like he's 15. He's been >> He he he has autism? >> Yeah. >> Like, a high-functioning? >> Yeah. I just I had no clue how fast it was. Oh my god. Like I said, he he did this back in uh my husband struck with January 3rd. >> Mhm. >> And so, he did this back in I don't know, second week of January for almost 3 weeks. And then, he finally he ate um He ate something last night. I didn't remember what it was. No, I'm sorry. >> Johna appears emotional here. But, whether that emotion is for 15-year-old Timothy, who has been found dead, or for the situation she now finds herself in, is much harder to tell. >> I had no idea. I would have taken him in or something. >> And I said the last time you saw him was 5:30 this morning? >> Yeah. >> Did he say anything? >> He had fallen out of bed. >> At 5:30? >> Yeah. >> You sure it wasn't earlier? >> I mean, it's possible. I thought it was 5:30, but >> [laughter] >> I wasn't super awake. I heard a thump. And I came down, [laughter] and he's kind of laying on his side, kind of like, "What the heck?" And um And I picked I uh I I reached out, and he he >> [laughter] >> I'm sorry. >> That's all right. >> Oh my god. Oh my god. Um Yeah. And I reached out, and he pulled himself up. And I asked him if he's okay, and I I asked him if he hit his head. He said, "No, I think I hit my my my knees on my chest." I think. He couldn't obviously he couldn't tell me how he fell. Um Oh my god. No. I don't know what to do. Oh my god. He said it's okay. And then >> Do you have other family here in town? >> Well, I have my cell, but they're not answering. My My father-in-law's an attorney. >> Best thing to do is surround yourself with family. Help you get cuz you know, right now you're going through it by yourself and you You get overwhelmed. >> How could I have missed that? >> What happened inside this house was not normal punishment. Timothy was allegedly subjected to repeated and severe forms of abuse that is just sickening to even consider. If this case has you hooked so far, you might want to subscribe. There are a lot more stories like this one on the channel. And with that, let's continue. >> He's He's been wearing baggy I mean, he's He's wearing a hoodie for crying out loud and I just didn't His face didn't look like that. What the heck? >> What's your first name, ma'am? >> Shawnda, S H A W N D A. >> And what's your What's your last name? Is it Ferguson also? >> No, it's Vander Ark, V A N D E R, space, capital A R K. >> What's your >> That's why I made That's why I I asked him to eat last night cuz his face started looking a little thin. I'm like, "Okay, enough." And he wouldn't show I'm like, "Let me see. Hold your shirt up." And he wouldn't hold his shirt up. He wouldn't do anything. >> Did he get real skinny last time, too? >> Yes. The only reason I know is because my my 7-year-old walked in on him accidentally when he was in the shower downstairs. >> Uh-huh. >> And then my 7-year-old comes up and he's like, "Mama, Timothy's really skinny." I was like, "Okay." >> Was that this time or last time? >> last time. That was like first week of February is when DC discovered that. >> Mhm. >> And I told him he was either going to start eating every multiple times a day or I was taking him to the hospital and he didn't want to go to the hospital, so he was >> So, he ended up eating on his own. >> Yes. >> Okay. And then so this this last time was it because your husband's in the wasn't home? >> Well, he hasn't been home since January 3rd, but he had a he had a grand mal seizure. God, it's been 3 weeks ago now. It was right it was right after that. He was He actually mentioned he was hungry the day he he stepped out or his dad and stepmom called to tell us they were divorced and moving to Florida last week. >> Where do they live? >> They they lived in Oklahoma, but they moved to outside of Jacksonville, Florida and they're not answering their phone either. >> Okay. And that's his biological father? >> Yeah. Yeah. They moved up here with us last May because his dad couldn't handle him. And he's been great. I mean >> Last May like as in May of last year or this year? >> of last year. >> Okay. >> May of last year. >> And he goes to school and everything he was? >> homeschooling him online. Um because it's high functioning um it's he's just done better at it. >> Shawna doesn't seem to realize it yet, but detectives are going to dig through everything including her phone. And that's where some of the most disturbing details are waiting. >> I can show you his grade report online. I've got all the It's online too. >> Okay, is he doing okay? >> Yeah, he was I mean he was failing math, which is not unusual, but he's passing everything else. >> What's his date of birth? >> It was 8/6 of 2006. I tried I just I tried to check in the last few days and he just wouldn't let me anywhere near him. He didn't want a kiss, a hug, nothing. >> Probably didn't want you to give him a hug cuz then you could tell that he was >> have known. And like I I told him he was stumbling a little bit last night, but he's not the most coordinated kid in the world. And he said he was okay. And then he ate >> What was the last time he ate you think? >> Last night. No. Gabriel, keep him up there. Um he ate He ate toast. >> Um there's two. There's a 7-year-old and a 20-year-old. >> The 7-year-old was asleep. I guess he's not now. Oh my god. I shouldn't have made him eat. I just I just know. I feel like such a failure. You You see this food now. Oh my god. >> Where Where was Where does he sleep at? >> Um >> Right there? That room? >> slept in that loft bed. >> Okay. So, notice there's another loft bed in another room. >> mine. It's 7-year-old's, but he's been sleeping with me since he's been the The youngest is my husband's and mine. >> Mhm. >> And he's been sleeping with me since his daddy had a stroke. >> Okay. >> Cuz he's scared. And um I offered to let Timothy move in there because but he He wanted to stay in his bed. Oh my god. No. I shouldn't have made him eat. I shouldn't have done something. Did they really hide that from you like that? >> They can hide a lot of things from you. >> gosh. >> What's What's your date of birth, ma'am? >> 3/13 of '79. >> There's a pattern often seen in cases like this. Self-pity presented alongside tragedy. Shonda calls herself a failure, though the bigger concern should be what Timothy experienced in that house of horrors. >> Okay. You can call Make some calls if you want again. >> I'll try to get him in the ambulance. I'm sorry. I'm just I don't know what to >> No, yeah. All right. Nothing I can say can help you through this, you know. It's The best thing is to do is is just bring your loved ones in and just >> And his baby brother doesn't know what's going on. and he I'm going to have to tell him eventually, but I don't want to yet. Oh my gosh. >> Well, we have to investigate every every death. Um So, I can't let anybody go in the basement for now. >> Okay. >> Um our medical examiner is going to be coming here in a little bit. >> It's a little cluttered down there, but >> You're fine. >> I'm sure you've all seen a lot worse. >> Okay. Um >> Right now, nobody is worried about clutter. There are far more serious questions surrounding what happened to Timothy. A messy basement barely registers in a case like this. >> Pardon? >> Where did he sleep? >> Down there, right there in that room. >> So, that's >> The bed is there. >> Yeah. >> You see the pillow and the blanket and stuff? >> He sleeps on the top bunk? >> Yeah, it's a loft. There's no bottom bunk. >> Okay. >> Stuff underneath it. >> Oh, it's like a desk kind of underneath? >> Yeah, well, yeah, the desk got broken, but there's boxes underneath it. >> So, you heard him fall? >> Yeah. >> That woke you up? >> Yeah. >> And you went down there and he was >> And I helped him up. Um I asked him if he wanted something to eat cuz he again he he the first time I noticed anything on even on his face was last night. And he said, "No, I'm not hungry." I said, "Did you did you hit your head?" And then I checked his head to make sure he didn't have anything. I noticed he had some scratches on his face. I'm like, "Are you okay?" "No, I'm fine." And then I watched him get back up on his bed. And then I went back upstairs. And then I woke up and when it was time to check on him this morning when I was getting ready for work. So, I went down there and and I said something and I noticed he didn't wake up and I shook him and he didn't respond. >> Was he on the bed when you came down there? >> Yes. >> The conditions Timothy lived in were disturbing. Timothy wasn't even allowed the basic comfort of a bed. Instead, he was reportedly living inside a closet where Timothy was forced to stay for almost the entire day and night. In fact, he was forced to pee and poop inside the same closet. >> And then you pull them downstairs if you are. Okay. >> I called 911 and I was My 20-year-old was getting up cuz I was going to drop him off at work early because his e-bike has a flat tire. Oh my gosh. I should have noticed this. I should have seen this. Oh my gosh. >> All right. >> Right. >> [sighs] >> No. >> We got We have um people coming to talk to you called victim services. They'll help you through >> Thank you. >> the grieving process because >> Please. It's I don't >> [laughter] >> It's He's really good at hiding stuff. >> Mhm. >> He's It's part of the reason his dad couldn't handle him is cuz [laughter] he kept lying about stuff. >> Mhm. >> In cases like this, creating the image of a difficult child often becomes important because it helps justify the unjustifiable. It shifts attention away from the abuse and onto the victim. >> How old is he? >> 15. >> 15? >> He'll be 16 in August. >> Okay. >> But his dad texted me last night and said I can't handle him anymore. I have to send him to live with you and I'm like, "Yeah, sure. Absolutely." >> Why Why was that? Why was What did he What did he do that? >> he was lying to him. He was um destroying things. Um >> Is he hard Is he hard to deal with? >> I don't think so, but I'm stricter than his dad. >> Mhm. >> So, I don't know if that I mean he he he's the line's been a problem. Um But, nothing major. >> nothing crazy. >> No. Um He's >> All teenagers, why? >> He's tripped on the stairs a couple of times, like just half the flight. And then later he came back to me, admitted he did it intentionally. But, I've asked him, I'm like, "Are you trying to hurt yourself?" He's like, "No, I just want to see what would happen." Ex- That's the way he A lot of time he He wants to see what would happen if he does stuff. And Oh my gosh. >> And I guess he he was take he he's prescribed ADHD medicine, but he's not taking it. >> Yeah, because it was he wasn't able to sleep with it. And he was doing really well, and he asked me if he could not take it, and I said, "Okay." And it was killing his appetite, that doesn't help. That was He started He quit taking it about the time of the first hunger strike because um when he finally started eating, and he was he was >> But, he did eat last night, you said? >> Yes. He had some toast with butter on it, that's what he had. That's all he wanted to eat. >> he's somewhat a little upset, he didn't want to eat anything else. >> Oh my gosh. You want to go check on the other kids? >> Yeah, you can do that, for sure. >> my 20-year-old's got my 7-year-old with him still. >> No, it's >> All right. Oh. You okay up here? >> Yeah. >> He's I just I'm sorry, Slaughter Joe. I'm really sorry. Oh my god. I knew I should have made him eat, but he just wouldn't. Did you notice he was covering up with his clothing? You didn't notice, never mind. I love you, dear, but And you just you never notice it. >> Shonda is clearly trying to distance herself from the responsibility. But, at this point, the evidence is moving much faster than her explanations. >> Do you have a picture of him before he started losing weight? >> [sighs] >> Yeah. See if I can find a good >> It's nice to have pictures of him. I can see if you have any on your phone. >> You doing all right? >> I don't know, honestly. >> Yeah, you it's almost like you're in a daze. Like you don't know what's real and what's not. >> It's so weird like >> Have Have you been talking to him at all recently? >> I talked to him yesterday morning to get him up. That was That was right basically when we started before we left. >> Okay, so how long ago was that? >> standard >> Did you Did you know that he was in this hunger strike? >> I think I told you at the hospital. Did I tell you or not? I don't know if I did or not. I don't >> I don't think you did. >> Is he Is he skin and bone? >> I know, but I just I mean how did he >> He's He's really >> Well, he did He doesn't communicate with Tim hardly at all. Like they say hi and they don't Yeah, he's >> Are you guys full brothers or half brothers? >> full. The only half is the one that's in there. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Investigators would later learn something even more disturbing. Timothy's own brother had allegedly been made to participate in the abuse that led to his death. >> And when When was the last time you talked to Tim? >> Uh yesterday morning when I was getting him up. >> No, yesterday afternoon before you left for work before I picked you up and took you to the archery bike park. You were You talked to him then. >> Yeah. I got off of work at 1:00 this morning. >> Has Has he talked to you recently about his problems at all or what's what he's dealing with? >> No, he he never has said anything of those words to me. >> Mhm. >> We rarely talked talk >> Mhm. Did you guys have normal conversations? >> Um I think the last time we did was before all of this happened. After that we didn't >> They they they literally cuz he works a lot and they >> Mhm. >> didn't talk. >> Yeah. >> You know, sometimes brothers will tell each other what >> That's true. >> they're not willing to tell their parents. >> he went on a hunger strike. >> He didn't even know anything about it, he said, so. >> By now, officers have seen enough. At this point, Shaundra is placed under arrest and transported to the police station. When you join my Patreon, you [music] get instant access to hundreds of posts and a ton of exclusive Stranger Stories videos [music] that are available for members only. It is also a great way to directly support me and the the channel. Check out my page right now at patreon.com/strangerstoriesplus. [music] >> He had a problem with his 20-year-old son. >> Oh, okay. >> So, that's what that was about. So, please take care of yourself. He's a respectful officer. He's assured me he's going to a medical screening. I know you have medical problems. You have to take good care of yourself. This is a manageable problem. The law says you're presumed innocent. You know that. Okay? Just don't assume the worst. Assume the best. Okay? But, take care of yourself. I'll be back in touch with you as soon as I can. >> Okay. >> Okay? I do have to go. I'm heading out of state right now, but I'm back tomorrow. >> Okay. >> As soon as I get more concrete information, I'll come see you. Okay? >> Thank you. >> Good. Please take care of yourself. You got any property you want me to take possession of cuz you can't keep it hanging here. >> Um I I've got my ID. I don't know. >> You should keep that. >> Yeah, you bring that with you. >> Paul doesn't know where another set is. >> Okay. >> He doesn't know where another set of keys is. >> Okay. Should I give them You want me to give them to Paul? >> Yes, please. >> Okay. Okay, if I take these. >> It's just >> Yeah, I can do that. >> I I'll take them. I don't know if you It's okay with you. >> that's fine. >> Okay. >> I don't think I'll need these. I didn't bring anything. I was just cold. >> You'll be okay. >> I'll try. >> Okay. Yeah, I was just going to take you back. >> Come here, ma'am. I'm going to I'll tell you everything that's going on. Or what I've been instructed to All right, thank you, sir. Appreciate it. All right. Um you're going to be charged with uh child abuse right now. >> By this stage, Shawnda is clearly emotional. But once again, the emotion seems centered more around herself than Timothy. >> Um I believe it's the first or second degree. So it it is a felony. So you you won't be able to get out of jail until you see the judge. Until the warrant paperwork's done there, okay? Which will probably be tomorrow. All right. >> I'm just >> No, I'm I'm the bearer of bad news right now. >> Thank you. I know. >> Yeah, it's been a bad couple days. >> That's what I'm saying. I've had a stroke since then. >> Mhm. >> I'm sorry. >> You're okay. Um I do have to handcuff you, but I'll do it in the front. Um >> What do you want me to do? If my blood sugar crashes, I need that. >> Are you Are you diabetic? >> I'm reactive hypoglycemic. >> Okay. You take medication for that? >> No. I have a service dog normally, but I didn't bring him. >> Yeah. >> For good reason. >> All right. I can let you have that all the way up until the jail. But the jail won't let you bring in any kind of food or nothing. So, if you want to drink it, you can always drink it now. >> Just worried that we'll keep it till I stop. >> All right. >> I haven't been able to keep anything down. >> Oh. >> The last couple of days. >> I know I am. Puking then if you're going to try to drink it. >> I can try. We'll see. I don't know. >> All right. So, I got paperwork signing that I'm going to do in the front cuz I know you're not going to give me any problems. >> Once officers complete the standard procedures and evaluations, she is taken to the Muskegon County Jail. >> What did you do with your uh >> It's still in my hand. >> Oh. >> Do I leave it there or what do I do with >> Yeah, I just got to throw it away somewhere. That's all. You can leave it there. That's fine. >> Sorry. >> Oh, you're all right. I just wanted to give [clears throat] you the chance to if you wanted to drink it or not. >> I don't think that's a good idea. >> Not from all the Yeah, the gagging. >> No. >> All right, just hang tight for a second. You're good. Um I wouldn't advise it now that you're It's not a clean place around right here but it was >> Yeah. >> Sorry, I got to just go like this. >> No, you're fine. Um I'm going to take your temperature. >> [snorts] >> This is touchless, so 96.5. >> I got low. I usually run 97 even, so >> Really? That's a little bit lower than normal. What's >> Now, the legal side begins. Shawnda's processed and formally charged with first-degree child and first-degree murder. But, the full extent of what happened is about to become even clearer through the interview with Paul Ferguson, Shawnda's 20-year-old son. >> I know that that night Timothy did eat because we had pizza and he had three slices. >> Hold on I want to stop you for just a second because >> Sorry. >> That's okay. >> Um I don't want to talk anything specific about the case just yet. >> Since you Since the police showed up at your house and >> Yeah. >> they brought you down here, I want to advise you of some rights before we talk about that sort of thing. What I do want you to know though is that we went through the phones, okay? >> Okay. >> We're beginning to go through the phones and there's a lot of evidence in the phones and I know that you're kind of aware of communication between yourself and your mother. >> Yes. >> Those sort of things and that's kind of what I want to talk to you about. >> Yeah. >> But, um I mean, certainly those are very serious things that you guys were talking about. >> Yeah. >> And I mean, from what I saw it sounds like you were compassionate in that you cared about him and you sent some pictures that were like he's looking too skinny and we we need to feed him and you know >> So, sometimes you get frustrated, but at the end of the day >> you kept coming back to like to caring. >> Yeah. >> But, the end result of that he passed away, right? And he passed away from not eating food. >> Yeah. >> Um so, but I I want you to be aware of this stuff. >> Okay. >> So, these are your Miranda rights, right? So, you have the right to remain silent. Anything >> Detectives are easing into the interrogation with harmless questions. But, without any prompt Paul starts discussing Timothy before they even pressure him. >> Um when we talk about I jump right into it. I know that we talked yesterday and I know that not everything that we talked about was the truth yesterday. That's okay. You don't have to feel bad. You don't have to feel guilty about not telling the truth to me, okay? I want you to just focus on yourself right now and think about what's best for you and and like try to get to the truth of what really happened with your brother cuz he deserves that. I mean there's clearly a lot of messages about stuff that you guys are doing with him about what he's eating, about restricting his food. How did that How did that all work? Like what was he allowed to eat? >> We stopped the food restrictions recently because we had noticed his thin. We wanted to get that back on. We didn't want any of this. We never wanted him to be injured or hurt. I loved him so much. >> Yeah, I can tell that. I can certainly tell that. When you say we, is that like you and your mother? >> Yes, she She loved him. We wanted what's best. The thing is he was stuck in the past. >> Okay. What uh So, you stopped the food restriction. When did that kind of happen? Like ballpark back when? >> 2 weeks approximately. We We were hoping that we could get enough where he would be safe and then we could continue to add it back to where we wouldn't have to worry and we could >> What were the What were the restrictions? >> We made sure that it was still something that gave him enough calories and everything. We It was rice or bread and like I said last week he got pizza. >> Okay. What were the What were they in place for like in the first place? >> Sneaking food over and over and over. We We've tried everything. We were nice. We tried different consequences, but he just couldn't ever listen. >> What were some of the other types of consequences? Like Like prior to prior to like are we talking like >> We did take away his devices. >> Okay. >> With his That was also because he wouldn't stay on his school sites. He would just go and try and play games or watch YouTube. Okay. He was the thing is he should have been held back so much. But he passed all of his final exams. Is it all I don't think it was my step my my stepmother was amazing. But I believe it was my father's doing. >> Okay. Helping him pass exams. Was it all online school? >> No, for back in the home when he went to public. The thing is he never really did any of the other work, but when it came to final exams he had everything he needed to know. So they let him move to the next grade which was just >> Right. >> Listen carefully to how casually he explains these punishments. A normal person would struggle to even say these things out loud. But Paul talks about them like they were everyday necessary decisions. >> So we're talking So today's the 7th. >> Yesterday 6th. >> What day are you talking about? The last time he was really kind of talking outside of the morning. >> Going fast. >> Okay. >> He he talked some in the morning. He was responsive. >> Yeah. >> That much I know. >> What's the the photograph in the bathtub of his face? Like zoomed in on his face. >> he'd been taking a bath. >> Okay. >> And I went in there to check on him at one point and he's just kind of laying there. I'm like, "Bud, you okay?" He didn't respond, but he was looking around. So and he was breathing. I know that much. >> Yeah. >> And so >> Okay. So at that time But he wasn't talking at that time. >> No, and it it it's it started to concern me. I I'm not sure if I texted mom about it or not. >> Well, you sent the picture to her. >> Yeah, I probably should have said something about the ER at that point though. Well, I certainly stupid. >> You have to think about it like this, right? She's She's your little and if she see sees that that's not all on you, right? You You made it from what I see you made numerous times to say, "We need to do something different about this." >> Yeah. We need to We can't keep doing this to him. >> I know she's a good person, but just And it's not about I don't think I don't know if this is both of our faults, if we should have done something sooner. I know we both could have. >> Yeah. I mean, I think you have to think about this. It's right now is not the time to go about blaming people, but it's the time to try to figure out, you know, when when could we have changed things, what could we have done differently, how did we get to the point where we're at? Because, you know, clearly where you guys got to. You said he was in the bath. That wasn't a nice enjoyable bath, though, right? That was a punishment bath. Right? That's a cold ice cold bath. And and that doesn't That's hard to watch. >> wash that. I He did I did tell him that if he wanted to wash up, and he did, but then in the middle of it, I think he he the whole laying there in a daze happened. >> When he's getting these ice baths, I know there's numerous of them, right? I mean, cuz I read through the messages. >> Yes. >> How How How are you getting the ice? Like, where's it coming from? >> Well, we have an ice machine upstairs. It's not a lot. It can barely create any. It's enough to make it a full on bath. >> But it's a cold bath. >> Yeah. >> And you're putting ice in there? >> Like one one dump of ice, two dumps. One dump. Yeah, maybe about that much. >> And and then you're just running cold water, or what type of water are you >> Uh it The water doesn't exactly go cold cold. It says there's a cold button, but it's basically sort of lukewarmish. >> How many times would you estimate that you guys get cold baths as a punishment for uh non-cooperating, or whatever whatever for whatever reason? >> At this point, there only two terrifying possibilities. Either Paul was completely psychologically controlled by Shonda, or there was already something deeply wrong inside him to begin with. >> So, there's So, restriction on food, he talked about bread. For how long was he eating just bread? >> A week or two. >> What was he having before that? >> Um we do ramen, sandwiches. And I think at some points we actually give him like a meal. >> What Why was he Why did he not have any meals? >> I mean The whole sneaking I just I don't know. >> Cuz he was sneaking food? >> A lot. Yeah, we over and over and over. There would literally be times where I would be sitting on the couch playing. And then I'd look up and he's there grabbing something. >> And so, whose idea was it for him to just eat bread? Is that your idea? >> No. >> Whose idea was that? >> My mother's. >> Tell me about the hot sauce. I know that that was used as both a punishment and it was put on the bread. Was it always on the bread? >> Not always, no. But the thing is, it still hardly did anything for him. There would be times where it would do something for me because I'd accidentally rub my eye after I put it on there. It was ow. >> So, you're putting Are you What What dictates whether or not there's hot sauce on the bread that he's eating? What What decides that? >> I I don't know. I just Whenever my mother told me to put hot sauce on it, I did. It was normally a thin layer to make sure that it wouldn't be too much because from what I know, ghost the ghost or is that California reaper is like 2,000 Scoville or 2 million Scoville? >> What does that mean? >> It's the hot sauce or the hot the the heat index, basically. >> Okay. And that's pretty high? >> Very. >> Okay. So, how long have you guys been using the hot sauce for? >> Um Almost a month, maybe. >> Okay. And was that only on bread or was that on other stuff, too? Uh >> I think one time we put it in some rice. >> Okay. >> But after that, I don't think we did that again. >> What was it What was it used for, right? Cuz you were giving him bread as his meal. What's the purpose of the hot sauce? >> I know it was punishment, but honestly, I don't think it was that useful because, like I said, he had no feeling in his tongue to eat. You could have eaten a whole in his mouth right there and he didn't even feel it. >> Was he eating his bread with hot sauce or was he >> Yeah. >> Okay. Is that really the only things he had to eat those days or did he eat other things to eat? >> Um From the bread and rice, other than that, not that I know of. >> Okay. So, sir, how long do you think he just ate rice and bread and hot sauce? >> Maybe like 4 months, maybe. >> Or >> Or 1 month, sorry. I was thinking 4 weeks and >> Okay, we understand that. We totally understand. I understand what you're saying. So, maybe about 4 weeks? >> Yeah. >> Did you see a decline in him during that 4 weeks of losing even more weight or being even less responsive or did What What changed when you moved into doing that? >> Um I think it was that there would be times where it would take him a moment to respond. At first, I thought it was just him acting, but then I was getting concerned. I think a week or so, maybe. >> There is this response or delay, is that it? >> Yeah, and >> As a matter of fact, I think you mentioned that to your mom multiple times, right? That that he doesn't seem to be responding, that he doesn't walk very well, he's stumbling. I think you mentioned those things, too, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What was she What was her response to those things? >> Um I think she was thinking because there was one point where he did that, but it was before he was thin. >> Yeah. >> And it scared the crap out of me, but then he admitted to my mother later that day, while I was at work, that it was an act. >> Okay. >> So, I guess we made the mistake she made the mistake of believing that that was what it was. I don't I know that he's done stuff like that back in Oklahoma, too. He would he would do something that would scare the crap out of us to make us believe that something was wrong, and several times here, he faked seizures. I've seen it because and I've also seen what happens because back in Oklahoma, he had the seizures from medication problems. >> Okay. >> But But yeah, I know I can tell the difference. And at one point, he nearly Gabriel had just barely walked back into the parents' into Mom and Adam's room Mom and Adam's room when he tried it again. Had Gabriel been there, he would have been even more terrified than he already was because, like you said, he was there for the stroke and the seizures, so. >> Yeah. >> Notice the collective language Paul uses here. He doesn't separate himself from Shanda. He speaks as part of the team. As if the punishments were shared family decisions instead of torture. >> If you're into clean designs with a criminal twist, you want to check out what's live right now on strangerlabel.com. From heavyweight t-shirts and hoodies to tank tops and sweatshirts, it's all made for fans of mystery, suspense, everything in between. Take a minute browse over at strangerlabel.com. Let's get back to the case. >> She told you what to say? >> Yes. She just >> Because why? Did she tell you why? Does it look bad to you guys? >> It's not just that. We loved him. She >> Does this guy ask you this like straight up? You keep saying love, love. Do you feel like this was love? That he's dead now because he couldn't eat food. Does that feel like love to you? >> No. >> He's dead because he couldn't eat. >> No. >> And I don't know anybody that thinks that's love. What I think's happening is your mom's convinced you that she's this perfect person and she's asking you to do all these things that are literally killing your brother. >> I know she's not perfect. >> How is that love? How is love How is love ice baths? How is love How is love handcuffing and how is love restricting movement and how is love hot sauce in the mouth and only eating bread with What if you were What if you only got to eat bread? How would you feel? What if you only got to eat bread with hot sauce? Would you eat? >> No. >> You're pretty skinny already. It wouldn't take you long. >> This This is This is my natural weight. I have an overactive metabolism. >> But it wouldn't take you long to be very much skin and bones if all you got to eat was bread and hot sauce because how could you eat? >> By this point, the interrogation becomes far more direct. And it's becoming painfully obvious that Paul had been heavily manipulated over a long period of time. >> Do you think she did that? Do you think that message is just a little bit suspicious that she sends you out just about midnight and says, "Heath, he's in the closet. I had to drag him in there." You don't think he was already dying or dead at that point? >> I was working. I didn't read that message and took basically I got home. >> But do you think she sent that for a reason? Why would she send that? >> I don't know. >> Doesn't it seem like maybe he was already dead? That she put him in there so that he could wake up and have died in his sleep cuz she can't call the police when he's in an ice bath and he freezes and he dies. Not freezes per se, but he dies in the bath. And she dragged him in there. Did she talk to you about all that? Did she tell you the truth about what really happened? >> I don't know at this point. She didn't >> I don't know when or why he died or anything. >> No, I don't know if he died in there. I don't know where I I I remember I know that when I when I got up he was gone. >> And when was the last time you saw him alive? >> The fifth. >> What time? >> About 4:00. Um I think because of my bike Mama had to pick pick me up and drop me off at work. So I was very late getting up, but I let them know beforehand. I know he was alive before I left. >> You know he was alive when you left for work. >> Yeah. >> And you don't really know exactly what time he was there. >> I think she managed to get there a little bit after 6:00. I managed to get get to work around 6:35-ish. >> The deeper investigators push, the clearer it becomes. Paul's thinking has become warped. >> So, she says to you at 11:49 p.m. at 7:05 She says, "Please set your alarm for 6:00 a.m." I ended up dragging him back to a small room. They're talking about the closet. >> Yeah. >> Because I wasn't going to risk him having access to the tub or other things overnight. >> Wasn't he already in the tub? So, what do you mean risking having access to the tub overnight? >> He's still trying to be stupid. She says he's still trying to be stupid, but I will tell you more tomorrow while I take you to work describing how many different ways I proved that he's still faking. He's still doing it. >> The thing was that he was being ridiculous. I had offered him a pizza roll. Cuz I was I wanted to truly test whether he was faking or not. And at first [clears throat] he didn't he didn't move. I'm like, "Okay, maybe this is But then he moved and went to try and grab it." I'm like, "Okay, I don't I don't even know. I don't know anymore." >> Well, he wasn't faking it, right? Cuz he died. >> Yeah. >> He wasn't faking it. Unless he Unless your mom did something to him to kill him. >> No, of course not. >> Outside of not feeding him or who have been lying to him for months. That's what killed him, right? Or did she Did she hold a pillow over his mouth and stuff his nose? >> Of course not. She's not a She wouldn't do that. >> She wouldn't have the strength to throw him and squeeze him until he died? >> No. >> So, what killed him was not having food? Not having access to food and malnutrition for months? How long did this go on for? >> I don't know. I don't know. >> Do you feel Do you feel good at all about any of this stuff? >> No, of course not. I can't, right? I can't I can't even live with myself. >> Don't you How do you feel about over and over and over again defending your mother about how good she is? Do you feel like that's the truth anymore? >> I don't. Cuz I'm quite disgusted by her. I'm disgusted by her. >> She never wanted this. >> Can we talk? How smart is your mother? >> She's incredibly intelligent. >> Magna [ __ ] laude, right? Have you ever thought about that? Have you ever thought, how come a woman that's this smart, this intelligent, graduated from law school, how could she not know what's happening? How could she think this is fake? How does she not know she's starving? How does she not see that he's wasting away? And you here, you're telling me that you've got some some mental health issues, but you graduated from high school, and it's very obvious to you that he's smelling he's got malnutrition, right? It's very obvious to you. But your mother here is not seeing that, and she's a she's a law school graduate, and she's very smart. Do you see what I'm looking at here? She's a liar. She's lied to you about so much stuff. At some point, you need to stand up for yourself and realize she's the manipulator, she's the liar, she put you in this spot, she did this to your brother using you. Do you not see that? That she used you to do this to your brother. Your mother used you. She's so smart. She's smarter than any of us here. She's smarter than me. She's smarter than any detective here. She's smarter than our chief of police here. She's smarter than all of us, and and we're supposed to believe she didn't know what's happening? No. She didn't want him around anymore because he was too much of a problem. You know that's the truth. You can look back at it and see that, can't you? She didn't want him around anymore because he was too much work. That's the truth. And the second you start to believe that and understand that, then I think that's the time you can move forward in this case. Until you believe that, until you understand that, you're never moving forward from this. This isn't an accident. This didn't just happen. Your mom knew exactly what was happening to him, that he was wasting away. You saw it, didn't you? You saw it happening right in front of you. >> It was never intentional. >> For your From For you or for her? Is she smart or is she not smart? >> She is highly intelligent. >> Then how is this not intentional? She thought What What did she think was going to happen then? He was just going to be good? And all of a sudden he was going to start behaving and doing everything she said because she didn't feed him food? >> I don't know. >> What did she think was going to happen? >> I don't know. I don't know what >> Exactly what happened to what she thought was going to happen. At some point he wasn't going to wake up. >> She never wanted him dead. She loved him. >> That's love to you? Everything that we talked about is in love? >> I >> How? You ready, man? Ready to go home? >> Oh. Yeah, I got some. >> I got some keys from your mom for the house. >> You did that? No, I did not. >> Throughout the interrogation, Paul repeatedly shows self-soothing behaviors trying to calm himself down physically while the pressure keeps building. But in the end, none of it would save him from what was coming. In the end, both Paul and Shanda were held responsible for Timothy's death. Paul Ferguson was sentenced to 30 to 100 years in prison for first-degree child abuse. While Shanda received life without the possibility of parole. Thanks again for tuning in. Drop a like if you like this video and check out my Patreon page if you want to support the channel even more. Stay safe and I'll see you in the next one.