Why did you not see these [ __ ] two girls dead? No, that's not what happened. YOU GOT [ __ ] PISSED OFF, ADAM. YOU [ __ ] DRAGGED THEM DOWN A [ __ ] HILL AND YOU [ __ ] KILLED. DON'T [ __ ] TELL ME YOU DIDN'T. I DIDN'T KILL ANYONE. This is the case where both the killer and the victim solved their own murder mystery. The victim caught the killer on camera. And this man's one mistake of going to the cops would get him arrested. There's some I told you I was on the trail. I didn't tell you I was at a murder site. Some stories haunt you because they leave too many whatifs. In Delvi, the victims left a clue. The killer left a confession. And in between lie dozens of disturbing angles no one can fully explain. I did it. No, I did it. What? I killed Abby. I killed Abby and Libby. Will you just let everybody know how much I love? Of course I will. They already know. No, they don't. Yes, they do. Nobody loves me anymore. Stop. On February 13th, 2017, the quiet town of Delelfy, Indiana, was shaken when two young girls, Abigail Williams and Liberty German, disappeared during a hike. Their bodies were found the next day less than one mile from the Mon High Bridge. Liberty was discovered nude and that Abigail was found wearing Liberty's clothes, but there was no apparent evidence that either girl had been sexually assaulted. It's almost too horrific to put into words. Both Abby and Libby suffered sharp force injuries to their necks. And what the autopsy revealed was even worse. They didn't die instantly. For up to 10 minutes, they may have clung to life, slipping in and out of consciousness. But the detail that hit the courtroom like a punch to the chest was this. Major Cicero noticed Libbyy's blood was mixed with something wet and he believes it was her tears. This is Richard Allen, a local resident who worked at a CVS pharmacy. He's getting questioned for a crime he may have committed 5 years ago. The idea that the killer attended public vigils, watched investigations unfold, and lived among the victim's families for five years makes the case particularly chilling. See you there, Richard. Thank you. I don't I gave you one of my cards. There it is. I think I did. There you are. Good. So the reason we wanted to talk to you is about the like I said the ability case what happened. Um I appreciate your time doing that. And as a formality before we talk to anybody about these things want to make sure you understand you aren't under arrest or anything like that. Okay. And the door here is open. You can leave at any time you want. Be glad to give you a ride back or whatever. [laughter] He's wanting to leave. Really? In high pressure rooms like this, killers sometimes perform. They laugh. They lighten the mood for themselves. Could that have been happening here? Socially aware defensive manipulators use humor to control room tension, mask discomfort, and appear non-threatening. On the flip side, people cope differently under stress. Some cry, others crack jokes. Richard can be a nervous social pacifier. Nervous laughter can't be considered a confession. So, but uh we need to make sure uh that we go to cover formality here and let me get to the page here with uh this is a Miranda warning. So, this is a formality we take care of whenever we talk to any. We're just going back to the beginning of the case and we know you talked to Lieutenant Dan. We just want to figure out what you saw when you were out there before. Great. Wonderful. Okay. Now, Tony brought up uh something that you had done and initially you had talked to Lieutenant Dulan. And according to Lieutenant Dulan, the information he got to you was from you was that you were on the trail between um 1:30 and 3:30. Does that make any sense? Okay. And that you had parked at the old Farm Bureau building. I think that may have been the old welfare office out there. Well, uh, and while at the Freedom Bridge, you saw three females and and noticed that one was taller and, uh, had black or brown long hair. This is basically what he had written down and maybe even got some information about your phone or something like that. Oh, yeah. Okay, great. So, let me now you understand everything. So, I want to make sure that we just kind of get some information from you and we get started here off the bat with today's date, which is Thursday. It's wild to think the case remained unsolved for years. And the person who eventually put himself in the spotlight was Richard Allen himself. Uh, any criminal history? Have you been arrested for anything? Okay. Any medical problems, heart trouble, high blood pressure, psychological disorders? Oh, yeah. and everything. Okay. Um, I've had a heart attack. I've got a couple stints. Okay. And, uh, how long was your heart How long ago was your heart attack? Uh, it's 2010. Okay. You were 40. 37. 37. Holy cow. Mhm. Anything else? Um, depression, anxiety, high blood pressure, cholesterol. Okay. All right. Um, and you're working at CVS. So, you said you've been there how many years? Since Well, not the one here, but with CBS since 2013. Okay. I've been there a while now. But you said you've been living at your house out there since 200. So you drive back and forth with CVS. Yeah, I was leaving. Like I said, I spent 10 years with Walmart. Um I was actually a store manager at one point with Walmart. Um chose to leave the company and do something different and interviewed with CVS and All right. Well, that's uh I know managing is kind of hard sometimes. as I understand. Is there a particular reason why you didn't stay in management or just tired of it? The bureaucracy just [snorts] not really being about taking care of the customer. It's more about hitting this number on this spreadsheet and that number on that spreadsheet and then you're getting a call every 15 minutes if you didn't hit this number on this spreadsheet. And none of them really help you take better care of the customer. It's I mean, you spend your time managing scorecards and I just had had enough of it. Sure. I was just tired of it. Sure. Okay. Okay. Um, let's see. So, from where we're at right now, I think probably can you help us understand u what was going on on Monday, February the 13th, you kind of tell us what you were doing that day and remember the day the girls Okay. On the trail. Yep. Uh, I went over to my mom's in Peru, Mexico earlier in the day. Um, I think my mom had had hip surgery back then or something. But regardless, um, my wife was working, so I went over there and spent the day, not the day, I spent the morning with them. um my sisters come over and they were going to go eat lunch and stuff and I wasn't about that. So I went home um and I remember it was fair a fairly warm day or warmer than normal. So um I think I just put a jacket on and went back out to the trails. Um usually we had a when we go we walk down the the high bridge and walk back and walk down the other side and come back. I mean, it wasn't a ritual, but I remember walking down to the bridge. Um, the [clears throat] times it was I left my mom's was probably around 11, 11:15. So, I think I would have been out there because I didn't do anything else. It would have been around I caught is when I was out there. Mhm. Walked down to Highbridgeidge. Always went out just a little ways, not a whole way. Went out a little ways and watch the fish. Um see if I seen any fish down there cuz I like fishing. And walk back and sit on the u when you turn around, go down the other fork, there's a bench that overlooks it. sat there for a few minutes and walked down the uh walked back out and left. While most people are sure Richard is the killer, there are some other theories swirling around. Court documents reveal that the victim's bodies were found posed with tree branches arranged in specific patterns which clearly suggested ritualistic or sadistic killing. Blood matching one of the girls was reportedly found painted on trees in a symbol resembling the letter F associated with Odinism. Okay. Anything else you remember? Um where was your first car? Said there was the big parking lot wasn't there at the time. Right. Oh, you mean the which one? Was it that like the where the bridge is at? There's a I don't think it was there. So, there's a if you went over behind u there's a back road that went up and it there was a bridge, not the main bridge. There was a smaller bridge where you could park there or you could park over on the other side. And I remember I didn't park over there where the u it's a farmer's entrance or something. I remember I didn't park there because I had told him something about there were a couple vehicles there when I left. So, I had parked somewhere. Either parked over on the bridge side or um there used to be a little building there. I could have parked there. There was a trail. Mhm. [clears throat] Until they got the uh whole thing done. Okay. When you're talking about the bridge, just so just want to talk about that big blue bridge, the freedom bridge or whatever that goes over the highway. That's the big blue bridge. But before that was there, there was a uh if you're okay, if you were going out of town, you would take the uh the road that I think is where the park is. It bears off it wise off this way and there's a road the first road you come Well, I don't know if it's the first road, but there's a road that takes off to the right and there's houses and then it just kind of turns into a lane and there was a a small bridge up there before. I mean, I think it's still there if you were like the one Okay, so are you talking about the onelane bridge kind of that goes? It wasn't used. It wasn't a bridge that was used, I guess, is what I'm saying. It was just there was a parking area up there that you could park in. Okay. And that's where people used that's where quite a few people would park before they I mean now there's a nice parking space, but be before it was either you parked there or you parked over in the farmer's thing. And I mean, at one point they had it marked that they didn't want you parked in there. So it and I know it wasn't over there cuz I told him something about some cars that were there. So I would have been parked up on the bridge side of things, I guess, is what I'm [snorts] saying. I guess it won't happen. So this is kind of an overview of the area. So obviously this is the blue bridge here over the H Heartland Highway. Okay. Yeah. And so yeah, can you mark on where you think you parked at? Show me the blue bridge again. Blue bridge. Here's the here's your Heartland Highway. Here's Main Street. Uh the road that comes out from downtown goes out onto Hartland. And here's the Anderson's. I think that's going to be their fertilizer plant. And down there's the bluebirds. I mean, it's it's right there. It would have been over in here somewhere probably. Well, that's one of the parking areas. Okay. And then I used or it would have been there was a old building somewhere over there's this this map was taken back when the building was still there. And this is the building uh that was on the bridge uh the trail side of the bridge. Okay. So down at this I think you went down this way and Mhm. like an underpass or something. Yep, that's right. And then there's a building right there. You can see it. Okay. So, it would either been there or there. Okay. All right. Very good. Which way do you think you would have traveled to get to this building that particular day? That just that way that loops around. Okay. I I don't know the names of the roads or anything. I just I I mean I can show you where I drove, but it just on the way the road that goes out. It's basically the same way that you get to this one except um No, it's further up and you go down and it like comes down and goes around somewhere and comes over on the other side. Okay, very good. Okay, for about 5 minutes now they're talking about the bridge. Why obsess over the bridge? Because that's where it happened. Notice how small talk turns specific. But Richard, where was the car? How close to the bridge? These can be subtle ways of checking if they've caught on. But with the case already being so popular in Delpy, it is hard to judge these things for guilt. If I were there that day, I'd probably talk about the bridge, too. That's the obvious landmark. Was it ever an occasion where you might have gone to the park another way? Did you go out here very often? I should ask. Not like I wouldn't say often. I mean, we go out. We may go once a month. We may go twice in one week. I mean, it was just kind of one of those where when we felt like walking the trail, we go. I [clears throat] mean, we were I would say we visited it regularly. M um during the summer months, we didn't really go out there much in the winter. We may have gone on a time or two, but Right. Okay. Who knew a simple question about where he parked could be so revealing. As Richard drinks that water, you can almost see his mind racing. It reeks of guilt. And the more you observe, the clearer it becomes. This man isn't clueless. He's either naturally calculating, or he spent the last 5 years perfecting his act, probably binging dine episodes, learning how to outsmart interrogations. Right now, he seems to be fishing, trying to figure out what the detectives know. Classic predator move, savoring the fact that he's been free this long. So, was it ever something that um was there ever a time that you guys took another path to get out there besides going around this way or do you remember anything like that? There's I mean I think there's a way if you go past where you park the um the farmer's entrance that I was telling you about. I think it's down here's an entrance across from a residence that's a farmhouse. Does that make any sense? Okay. Yeah. Okay. I mean, there's I know that there's there's a way that winds around and you can eventually get back to 200 or whatever road it is. We're off of 200 north, I think it is. It comes out somewhere down there, but we only did that. I think we found that by accident one time. We just we thought we'd go that way and try to get back and it was um we eventually came out that way somewhere. Okay. But no, I wouldn't if we were going to go there, we would go down through town and [clears throat] Okay. Didn't know. All right. So, let's talk more about what you remember being remember doing that day, remember seeing that day? Okay. You gave an account to Sure. uh the officer who talked to you and do you remember how that uh was prompted, how that how that happened if you happened to talk to the officer? Um I don't remember if it was the next day or a couple days, but shortly um shortly after they were asking for anybody that was there to come in. So I went down um I got home from work and my wife said, you know, they want to talk cuz I had obviously told her that I was there and uh she said they want to talk to anybody that was down there may have any information. I don't have much but I obviously will go down. So, we went down to the sheriff's station and uh I don't remember who it was came out and talked to me and said that he would get my name and information. And then uh I was uh I was driving downtown for something and I know that I remember he called me when I was in the car cuz I pulled over and talked to him. It was a DNR officer. Um, and he asked me if I could uh come down and talk there or if I want to meet somewhere. And I don't remember how or why. I think they were really busy obviously crowded probably. So I was heading down to it was a save a lot parking lot down there and I told him I would just meet him there if that was okay. So um he came down, we talked. Um, he looked at my phone, took my phone information, and I think got some uh we took the battery out and everything and got information on it. So, Mhm. that's pretty much it. And, uh, I mean, I gave him the account. Um, forgive me. I mean, it's been years and I thought about it a lot. Um, as time goes on, you It's um, like I said, I think I was there probably around noon. It could have been a little before noon or a little afternoon. Um, walked down back an hour, so probably 1 1:30, 1:45 depending on exactly what time it was that I got there that day. I just remember walking down the trail um and I had told him that when I was approaching the trail, the trail head pad I guess is what I call it, there was uh three girls walking off the trail. Um and I just remember it looking like one of them was probably watching, not babysitting, but watching the other two cuz they looked a little younger. Um and they looked very similar. I don't know if they were sisters or whatever, but the other one didn't necessarily, but uh I remember seeing them walking off the trail head. Um and I didn't really see anybody. Right there, he pins himself. And the fact that the victim herself caught the killer on camera further increases suspicion. Libby German, one of the two murdered girls, had the presence of mind to record the killer on her phone. The fact that a 14-year-old girl tried to gather evidence to catch her own killer is both heartbreaking and brave. And here, Richard claims no one else was there. That's not a mistake. Clearly, that's a leak. By limiting the story, he exposes his knowledge. Don't forget that right now you can head to patreon.com/strangerstories plus and instantly get access to a ton of exclusive videos that I created specifically for my Patreon members only. Go check everything at patreon.com/strangertories plus. I walk down, like I said, I look at the water. I walk back and I sat. I mean, somebody could have walked behind me, I guess, but I sat on that uh bench that overlooks the the creek bed and all that. Um, and I remember telling him when I left, I remember there being I think there was two vehicles down there on that farmer's entrance that I told you about. And that's why I know I didn't park there cuz obviously I wouldn't recall seeing cars there if I parked there. The farmer's entrance. Are we still talking about this area here or is there some other location here? It's There's a pull in like right next to the trail is all I can tell you. There's a pull in right next to the trail and a a trail actually leads up to the trail. Yeah, it's hard to see from here, but I think right this is what's called the old mirrors. There was a farm there was a farmhouse across from it is all I knew. And it was like I mean I guess it looked like where you take farm equipment in out or something, but I know at one point they flagged it that it said no parking. So we didn't park there for a period of time. Did you ever park there before when you went? A lot of times you did. Okay. I mean, we used to when it wasn't marked. We did a cleanup down there one time with I brought a bunch of Walmart people. Um kind of [snorts] a community engagement thing. And we did a cleanup down there. It's the year that they tore down. We tore down that. Uh if you go down, not the high bridge way, but that one where I sit on the bench that I was telling you about. If you go down the hill, there used to be a little shed, a little shack down there, and they tore that. And that's We were there that day that we tore that down. Okay. Now, you guys did that with Walmart. Was that the local Walmart you worked at? [clears throat] Lafia. Lafayette. One on Commerce or the one on on Commerce. Okay. All right. So, uh you guys came up and did that. Do you know when that was? Oh, Lord. No. Um, well, was before or after this? 2006. Oh, it would have been way before I wasn't even with I wasn't even with Walmart at the time. I would have already been with CVS. Yeah. Okay. All right. Somewhere around there. Um, so you were working out there in trails. Had you been familiar with the trailer trails before then? Was there a time that you had been out trails before that? We had walked after we moved to Deli. I mean, we started experimenting. I mean, there were trails that we didn't know were there, but you know, you'd hear about one and you'd go. And I'm sure by that point, well, obviously I know by that point I knew about them because that's how I we had uh I don't know how I got associated with the uh Dan Dan something or other that runs the area. I think it was Dan run like the Harry Canal thing. Mhm. And McCain McCain McCain. Um, I don't remember how I became acquainted with him, but I asked him because at Walmart, you know, as a leader, they always want you to be involved in the community. And I mean, it's a good thing, but you can also give money to like so because we brought so many people out for that event for a day. We had so many hours and we were able to donate money because of that from Walmart to the Air Canal Foundation or whatever. So, we worked uh I guess the the question is yeah, I had been on the trails before that day. Mhm. And we worked we also worked out at the uh the Carolton Bridge that day. There's a tow path or something. We made up some stuff along there, too. Oh, okay. Yeah, makes sense. All right. Well, that's good. So, uh yeah, I sat there for a few minutes and left. And like I said, there were a couple vehicles. [snorts] Um, I may have told him the exact makes. I'm not sure. I just remember one was a one was like a sedan and I think maybe one was an SUV. I'm not sure. Mhm. Have to look back at what I said that when I interviewed him. And that was at the you call farmer's entrance entrance. What about where you parked? Were there any vehicles? I know there were no vehicles where I parked because I I don't remember telling I mean if he asked I I didn't see anything there that a lot of people would park at that farmer's entrance because I'm I'm thinking that was probably when they didn't really want you parking there and that's probably why I didn't park there. But it's much closer to the trails so a lot of people like to park there. It's you walk in and you're actually like halfway through the trail. So you can walk one way and the other and leave and but I know at one point like I said they didn't want you parking there so he didn't. Mhm. So if so back then if you told he said it his report said Farm Bureau old Farm Bureau building. So would that be? I never really knew what that building was. I just remember telling him there was a building there. Um, and if that's where I told him I parked, then that's probably where I parked cuz we, like I said, we would either park. Obviously, the farmer's entrance was always the most convenient. But there was a bridge, a small bridge before the blue bridge. I probably I don't know if I got this right. This was Anderson's. Yes. So, there was a little tiny, it used to be like a one-way br. It wasn't even a road anymore. Like, you could either go towards the blue bridge or you drive under it, too. Uh yeah, I think you right you now I follow it wasn't that parking lot wasn't there on the other side so you didn't but yeah you would uh you went like I said you take this road that forks off coming out of Deli somewhere and then you take a right and there's a it's just a little road and there's some people that live along it but then it at the end of the road it goes up to this like I said there's like a parking area where people used to park. I think I know what you're talking about. I think you can't see it on here, but what you're describing is a road that leads up to this parking area that you're talking it just it's out of the sight of that side. Sure. Probably. Yeah. His car was found to be parked near the area where the girls were murdered, which raised immediate suspicions. This detail became especially significant after forensic evidence linked Richard to the crime. The proximity of his car to the scene suggested that he might have been there at the right time to commit the murders. Another key detail that emerged was that some witnesses had noticed a vehicle matching his description near the crime scene around the time the girls went missing. It's unclear whether his car was directly witnessed by any of the victims or if it was caught on surveillance footage, but it was definitely a factor in narrowing down the pool of suspects. So, um, how far out to the bridge did you go that day when you were out there? Do you remember how far how far out onto the high bridge? Um, I have no idea how many feet it is. It's there's a the way I always know is there's a one of those platform things that stick off the side and I usually years past like 9 10 let's see six 6 7 between 6 and 10 probably. I've actually been across the high bridge back when it was in a little bit better shape, but somewhere in there I 8, nine, 10, somewhere it started getting pretty rugged and stopped going across it. But, um, for the most part, I didn't go past that one one uh whatever the thing is that sticks out. I'd go out there and kind of look, like I said, I fisherman, I'd look and see if I see any fish or anything and then uh um then I went back the other way. I think those were for back in the day if a train was coming and you were out there possibly at least get out of the train. Exactly. Think I would still want to be on it when the train came. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Um so yeah, that day I I don't remember what year it was, but it was well before uh 161 17. Um I don't know, just decay. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. So if you if you were parked there and correct me if I say anything that building I'm sorry. So if you're parked there, how did how did you get on the trail? Where did you walk? Um at one point you either walked down the road, but then at one point they had a trail there. Not a I wouldn't even call it a trail. They had a gravel path that led to the new thing that they were doing. Uh, I call it the trail head. When they started doing all that, there was a trail that would uh I think it ran along the road if I remember right. And then it just cut over to where the trail head was at. You couldn't really park up. I just remember where that path was at. You'd think you could park there, but it was no parking. So, you had to walk. You either parked over here and just It was actually closer if you went over here and you could just walk to the bridge that way. Then if you went this way, it was a little bit further because you walked along the road to walk along the road or was there a path that went at one point? I think you walked along the road. Honestly, I don't even remember. Where's the the trails here? That's why I said we at some point it was probably after they put that little pathway in that we even parked there. I don't think we ever even used that until they put that path there and it was just because it was the only way to get to trail head from that side. And like I said, at one point they didn't want you parking down here at this um this farmer thing. So they had put in a like a a gravel path in and you would park there. So you either parked over there or you park there and walk down the gravel path and the path cut over to like where the trail head thing is. Mhm. So I guess what I'm saying is I don't think I don't know that we ever parked at that little building, whatever it was, until uh until they laid that gravel path to it. I think we thought that that was a new I guess designated parking area and that's when we we'd park there once in a while. We'd still park over here once in a while. It just depended on which and like I said there was times when we'd park there on and off whenever they didn't have it posted cuz they didn't want you parking there and we probably did a time or two when they did have it posted but we didn't make a habit of it. So what that car that was in your garage would that have been what you drove out there that day? Um, let me think here. It would have either been that one or our uh great Ford 500. Um, we've kind of switched vehicles back and forth. It's kind of cuz I've I've often times worked further away from home. And when I was working in Peru, the car is uh what I [clears throat] say that's a 16. So prior to that, I'd had a little red Ford Focus and our trucks were we did our truck at like 4:00 in the morning. So on truck day, I'd be driving over to Peru at like 3:00 in the morning. And uh one day I was driving, I was tired. I mean, there's often times you'd be tired, but this day I was I was just so tired like to the point I almost and should have just pulled over, but I made it over there and I turned off. Didn't take the highway all the way up. I took the turn off that takes you into the back way to Peru and um made it all the way in town and literally I fell asleep and I woke up when my airbag went off. I veered off the road and hit a SUV parked on the side of the road and left literally that's when I woke up. Like I didn't even know I had it took me several seconds if not a minute to get my bearings and even figure out what had happened. And I still didn't know because when it hit the SUV, it threw it clear up over the sidewalk into somebody's front porch. Like I literally didn't break at all. I was asleep. So I hit it full speed. So anyway, I get out and there's not even anything there. I'm like, "What did I hit?" And there was a person stopped on the other side of the road. Anyway, long story short, they called the police, blah blah blah, and I had to get That's when I bought that black car. Mhm. Um, the black car being the [clears throat] 16, the Yeah, the one in the garage. Okay. And, uh, so I got that car cuz I have to drive back and forth. Want something to get good gas mileage. sculpture. My point is I was driving the black car and then when I transferred and came back to Deli, I didn't need the gas mileage anymore and it was a nicer car, so I gave it to my wife. And from that time until just last, well, no, earlier this year, I drove the gray car and she drove the black car. Now, if I was going somewhere out of town, you know, a lot of times I would use the black car depending on how far we're going. The gray car was dependable, but it's just one of those where the longer I guess more recently I started driving, you know, if I was I was going to go to Lafayette or something for an appointment or whatever, I'd take the black car just cuz it's more dependable and she works. Anyway, and then when so from during that time period, I drove the grade Ford 500 and she would drive the black car. Had her old CAT license plate and all that on it. And then uh when uh I I got her van, the gray car pretty much had it. And these are I had that in a truck as well. I had a truck for I don't know 3 4 years if I bought it used and we didn't drive it hardly ever. And it was one of those where get rid of them while they're still worth something. So we traded them both and I got the uh van that she drives now and then I went back to driving the black car. So So if I remember right, you said you had gone to Miami County to see Mexico. Would you have planned and ride the black car because that was a trip out of town? I wouldn't have pl No, during that time it was still okay. The great car was still It's not like it was a junk car. We bought it brand new. Um it's a 2006, but I just say in the last you know 3 4 years it's it's not the car didn't run well. It's just one of those where it's old enough that you know you just you don't want to get over somewhere cuz usually if if we are if I am driving it's because she's at work and I don't want to end up having to get stranded somewhere. But that was more recently. So um that's why I don't I don't know which it was either the gray or the black one that day. It would have been could have been the black one could have been the gray one. Makes sense. Okay. It was an 06 4500. Multiple witnesses reported seeing a vehicle parked near the trail head at the Manon High Bridge around the time of the murders on February 13th, 2017. The description given was often a 2016 2017 model year vehicle, specifically a Ford Focus or a similar car. The color mentioned by witnesses was consistently a PT Cruiser or small SUV, dark colored or possibly black. The presence of a car like Richard's in that area at that critical time linked him circumstantially to the crime scene. So then you get on the trails and you say you saw three girls. Where where was it? You saw the three turtles. I just they were up around the trail. I mean I didn't like interact with them. It was up around the trail head somewhere. So you But you say I say they were leaving. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm assuming they were leaving or they came from down where those cars parked and they were going to go back that way. I don't know. Okay. And then did you see anybody else when you were out there? Anybody that stand anybody that stood out, I guess. I mean, if I did see somebody, I it didn't click with me. And of course, my memory was a lot better when I talked to him that day. Um, was I don't I don't remember seeing like I told him, I may have seen there may have been somebody on the bridge or something when I was coming back through, but I I didn't The only ones that I really noticed seeing were the were the three girls. Okay. cuz I was walking towards them and I mean they obviously stood out and like I said I remember it being it looked like an older girl with two younger girls. Okay, just walking the trail. Okay. And I just I guess I just assumed that she was probably watching them or in charge of them or whatever was kind of what it felt like. Okay. If you thought you some might have saw somebody when you when you you were coming back through from the bridge where where might they were on the bridge? I don't I don't really remember seeing anybody that day, but I don't know. I So, if I did see somebody else, I didn't jump out to me or anything else. I don't, like I said, I could have been people down around the cars, but I don't remember. I just remember seeing a couple cars parked over there. Mhm. Like I said, Dan and SUV or something like that. Okay. Admitting he saw the girls places him there. The last to see them is often the one responsible. It's too convenient as well. He frames himself as an innocent passer by. But no one else remembers him. And then when you got back to your car, was there any other cars when you got back to your car? I don't think so. Well, no, cuz I would have thought through that now. Okay. Or just been minding. Do you know where you went afterwards when you left there? I went home that day. I always watch the stock market and you know trad stocks a lot. That was something else that they remember the officer recorded something about stock market. Tell us about that. I just had a uh individual trading account with uh day tech originally and it was I think it was TDM. Yeah, TDM trade. I just I trade stocks, try to get rich, lose money. Did that work for you on and off? It did actually. But no, I it worked really terribly there for a while and I just I don't even do it anymore. So that's just too much of a risk. [clears throat] So did you have a phone or a watch or something you were looking at the stock market on or um I'm not I think so I had a program on my phone to watch stocks. I don't remember exactly when and how long I had it, but yeah, I had a program that I could depend on the reception you had. Of course, if you didn't have any reception, it wouldn't work. And was it fairly good out there that day? And that's honestly that I think that's why I went home as quick as I did cuz I wanted to get home and watch it on my computer with my sock tickers and all that stuff. So, cuz I remember that's what I remember doing that. That was like a hobby, I guess, for me was watching the stock market and looking at charts and trying to predict what something's going to do and make money off of it. Yeah, that's way out of my league. Well, it was mine, too. I just didn't realize it at time, but And what were you wearing that day? Uh, I mean, you said you put on a jacket. You put on a jacket and um blue jeans and I'm sure I put on a jacket because I think it was still fairly cool that day. I don't think it was super warm. Um I would have put on a jacket. I don't know. No. What kind of jacket? I mean um I've had car heart jackets over the years. Um Um Color is your jacket? Uh, the one was blue, the one was black. Probably back then it would have been a black one. Um, had a hood built into it. Um, so it was just a black zip up. Zip up. It I don't even think it was a car heart. I think it was an off brandand, but it was like a car heart. I could have worn that. I've had um sweatshirts like what I threw on today. I I hoodies, jackets. I mean, I've got a little bit of everything. fleece. Anything else you maybe head gear or anything like that? Wasn't that warm that day, but wasn't that cold either. Um, always kept a hat in my coat. So, it would have been a like a I don't know what you call them, skull cap or just a not a big fluffy hat, but a small small hat. Notice that [snorts] little moment. Phones buzz, quick glances down, then back to the act. So, these detectives have been silently communicating about what's going down. Uh so [clears throat] cap on your head and anything else you've been wearing besides like what kind of shoes? I mean that pretty pretty strange to ask a question like that. closure. It would have been over tennis shoes or um I have uh I had military boots that I used to wear, but they just don't fit. They're not I've been out of the military forever. So, um I I had some combat boots in my closet that I used to wear occasionally. I don't know if I was still wearing that or not. I mean, I haven't worn them in years, but Mhm. Um could have had a pair of work boots. I don't know. So, probably older tennis shoes, but if it was wet out, sometimes I'd wear um a boot like a work boot or but like I said, the combat boots cuz they held water out pretty well. Okay, great. And I may have told him that day was I don't remember. Do you know what kind of phone you had back then? Do you have that phone? Do you? I if I do, it's in a closet somewhere. I She's I'm sure recycled it by now. So, um, a couple things I wanted to ask you after I check my phone's just like ringing like crazy. Um, so, um, what we would like to do is to be able to confirm some of the information that you've given us so far and be able to examine your phone. Um, as you're well aware, phones go everywhere with everybody and they tell a story about a lot of what people do and sometimes the information on a phone can confirm or, you know, maybe not necessarily confirm information about what somebody is saying. Um, would it have the ability to be able to extract the data from a phone and be able to look at it and be able to tell where somebody was at? Yeah, I know that. Okay. Would that be something you'd be allow you would allow us to take care of do with the day and get it done? How long are you going to have my phone? Well, we ideally would like to have a phone that you had. Did when you got that phone, did it uh did you take the data from the old phone and move it to the new phone? No idea. I mean, I know I always tried to save contacts, right? So, so if you had the the phone like where'd you get the phone at? What service is it? Uh I go through team. It's it's an online service and it's a lot of people don't know about it. It's really inexpensive and I've had it for years now. In this room, you either leave as a witness or you don't leave at all. And right now, he knows which one he's becoming. I'm trying to think if it's ever been, you don't even hear about AT&T anymore, but it could have been that at one point. Mhm. Okay. I never had it before. We lived in Deli though, so I know. I'm pretty sure we Yeah, because I always got my phone. I work at Walmart, so I get my service plans through them because I got discounts through them. So, I know I it's been since I left Walmart. So, well, so then what I would like to do, if it's okay with you, would be to have an opportunity to look at the phone and uh examine some of the data on it. really would like to get to the phone that you had back then. If you think it's in a closet, actually I don't have I mean my wife comes home, she'll know if we have it, she'll know exactly where it's at. Okay. All right. So, uh if it's okay with you, she recycled them, but she may not. We could start with this phone. We'll be able to extract the data from that if that's okay with you. Go ahead. Any questions? Yeah. We'll try to answer just uh I don't know. sounding more like you're you're like I'm not going to be somebody's fall guy right here. Watch his face. This is when it hits him. He's not just a witness anymore. They're looking at him as the bridge guy. Here's I probably were talking. I want to help you. I thought you were trying to find So everybody might have it be helpful, but absolutely what we're doing. everywhere that we everyone we talk to, we we're trying to eliminate them from any suspicion of being involved in this case. Sure. So, what we want to try to do is get as much information together to be able to show, okay, we've looked and didn't find anything. So, you understand what I'm saying? Sure. I get that. I just like I said, I just it honestly it amazes me that we're even talking. I mean, it's been been so long and I [clears throat] like haven't thought about this much and it's just like I don't want to be somebody's fall guy and we're going to try to make pieces of a puzzle fit somewhere they don't fit so we can close this thing. I guess and I'm not saying you guys please don't think I'm questioning your integrity. That's not what I'm saying. I just Okay. I mean, I guess that's that's where I'm at. I It doesn't seem like a simple conversation we're having. It seems more like you think I might have done it. I understand what you're saying. I completely get what you're what you're saying and how I would feel from your from your point of view. Okay. Yeah. But from our situation, what we're trying to do is be able to show uh what all you were doing that day. Take a look at everything. Make sure that we can show that uh what you're saying is true. Okay? So that we can be able to say to someone else, whoever's prosecuting this case, look, we looked at Mr. Allen. He's not our guy. And we looked at him because we looked at his phone. I was going to ask you something else, too. We'll be able to look at your car and also um um with your permission, we'd like to look at your house. And so, all these things, all these things are very, very important to us to be able to No, I get that. I mean, yeah, I'm not going to I mean, if if you get to a point where you think that I need further investigating and you want to get a warrant, do it. That's fine. But I'm not going to have somebody going through my house and everything. Sure. Sure. I just be honest. I just don't I guess I'm starting to feel more like your uh main lead or something here and I'm not going to do that. We just started we did you did you understand that that because we are so far into this. Mhm. That I'm sure you see the news, you see state police doing their thing. Well, we for a great while. Yeah. We we at K Sheriff's Department and he's an investigator prosecutor's office. Sure. We decided to pick through the very beginning of this again. And I guess we're talking to everybody that was out there that day and trying to and cross the tees, dotting eyes. It's nothing more than than that. And I I get that part. So there's no fall eyes. That's not Yeah. And like I said, I'm not trying to push anybody's integrity. I just like I guess what like I said at the point that you think I might have actually done this then if you want to get a warrant search my house, my car, my orphases or whatever that's fine. I mean I don't mind you looking at my phone or whatever. But like yeah I don't think I guess my point is I can't I don't think we're just asking. Sure. Right. Just asking. I understand that. M. So it it is what it is and we have to ask. So yeah, I'm not going to have police out going through my house and stuff. That's just not that's fine. News leagues and somebody here and I just don't need that kind of Well, we're trying to keep this very discreet. So, you know, uh we're not interested in making your life difficult or anything like that. We're trying to get these things um figured out and get taken care of. So, Sure. with that. So, you said you would let us look at the phone. Sure. Okay, great. And you help us get to the other phone, too. I'll see if I can find it. Okay. All right. So, uh, let me go back to that form and we'll get this phone back to, uh, our our team. We can do that. Uh, I read this to you. So, if you have any questions, do you have any questions about uh your rights about being able to do this? I would just need your signature there to verify so you understood everything. You know what? Let me talk to my wife before I do anything. Okay. I don't want I'm sorry. I don't want to do this cuz I'm I'm cool with it, but at the same time, I don't want her to get pissed off because I'm I don't know. It's okay. We watch we watch TV shows and stuff and I just like I I don't want to be associated with this thing obviously more than anybody else does. And am I uh an angel of a person? No. I mean, I'm like anybody else and I guess I don't want you maybe I don't want you looking at every website I visited and so I think I'll talk to my wife and if she's cool with it then we'll do it. Can I? So he says yes. Van immediately takes it back saying his wife should also be okay with it. That's a huge tell. He wants to look cooperative but not too cooperative. This is defensive detachment. By involving his wife's opinion and referencing TV shows, he distances himself emotionally while buying time. Classic image management behavior under pressure. And I I'm going to get something. I want to show you something just really quick. I'll be right back. But no, we're trying to give you a hard time. I am again just trying to get these things taken and I get that a long time. So I get that. But and I guess that's not that I ever question anybody's integrity, but that's fine. It's just I know that it's at a point where I mean you want closure. You want you want closure for a family and um and I'm not again I I'm not I don't know you from Adam. No, it's fine. I just and but you also can't say it's never happened where pieces have been we find a piece that's close to fitting and make it fit and I just don't I just want you to see why we're why we came to you and here it comes the evidence bomb that's going to hit him right where he can't wrigle out. This is what this is from the beginning. Okay, it's basically tit 74. Okay, that's I can I just I I don't want you to think that we're just randomly coming after you. And you've been Oh, I don't think you're coming after me. It's not bad. You've been completely honest with us. You said, "Well, what the information you can see right there, Mr. Allen was on the trail between 13:30 and 15:30." That's uh that's I mean, I don't think that time I was. I know I wasn't out there that late. I don't know what I don't know what I told him that day, but I know I wasn't out there till 3:30 or so. Yeah, it's 3:30. I would be that would be right around 1:30 until 3:30. No, I'm saying when I left 1:30 would have been more the time I would have left. Okay. Not gotten there cuz I I the only reason I remember is cuz I know I left around 11:00 or so cuz they were getting ready to go do lunch. Uhhuh. And I wasn't going to do the lunch thing with everybody. So I just home and I was going to watch the stock market. Thought it was a nice day and I'd go take a walk on the trail before I did. Yeah. So things things we're asking you is nothing any different than we ask anybody else around there. I guess I was actually watching my stock. So nothing must have been working. You asked about vehicles part. It wasn't I mean it was that farmer's pull off is where I would see these different people call sure got the information off my cell phone. Mhm. So yes, that's why I really like to have that cell phone in particular. But again that that's why we're here. Sure. And I get that we're trying to put if there's any pieces you missed or anything that you can recollect and that's that's honestly that's what I thought this was. And [clears throat] I mean there's nothing else I can really think of. But as far as searching my house and my phones and like well let me say uh I haven't even got to that yet. I just want to let you know those things have been very helpful for us. Okay. That's how we um estimate the successfulness. And I I guess I I see that I guess when you say progress, it's like we're still where we were. And I'm not saying you haven't made progress. You obviously have. I'm just saying like we're here because we haven't found the guy that did this. And I'm not going to turn into that guy. I'm not going to I just I don't want to become the target of something because like I said, I we watch a date line every week. We watch everything and it's just it's one of those I mean there's nothing that's going to tie me to it and I'm not worried about that. I just to have people come and start searching my house and stuff. I mean my wife doesn't even know I'm here talking to people. So, um, but I I mean I can look for the phone, I'll talk to her. And, um, I mean, obviously anytime that you feel that you need that information quicker, I know you can get it. It's not like you can't get it if you want it. I'm not an idiot. What information would be searching my house, searching my phone, searching mine? Well, and again, reason I said search your house and your car would be to be able to uh say to someone, look, we did actually take care of this information. We know for sure, okay, what was there, what we found, and you that gives us the answer we need for a particular situation that we're dealing with. Sure. Okay. It doesn't mean that we're trying to put anybody in a box or anything like that. Uh are I know you brought up several times wanting to be able to resolve a case. No, what we want to do is be able to find a person who absolutely not trying to put anybody in in that box that that uh wasn't responsible what happened. Okay, I understand that. So, and I I'm not saying you just want to label somebody, but that's exactly what he wants to say. You know, I had nothing to do with it. I haven't been a part of this investigation. I mean, I have with what I did and now I'm obviously you question me further and that's fine, but I it's a horrible thing. And I mean, I obviously I don't want to be any more involved in it than what I have to be. Mhm. If I thought I had something that was useful, by all means, I I give you anything I had. I just don't know what's going to be useful to you. Sure. Sure. I understand. So that's that's one of the reasons why we asked for the phone is to be able to be uh to nail down that aspect especially the phone that was would have been involved in that situation which would be the phone you gave the information on to the officer. Sure. Uh and also uh something that would be very important to us for to look at would be your car because um when somebody does something that's uh involved in something like this there might be traces of biological information and data or uh substances that were left behind inside of a vehicle. So sure I would make sense. So, um, would it be help for us to be able to look at your car to be able to determine if there be anything like that inside of it? I mean, I'm going to talk to my wife before I do anything. I mean, this affects her as much as it affects me. And I know you guys don't talk to people. I don't hear a bunch of rumors out there, but I mean, I don't want anybody knowing that I talk to you guys. Oh, I understand. That's just not We wouldn't We don't do that. Sure. That's [snorts] not something we want to do at all. So, u we don't we don't just go out randomly talk with people about stuff like this. Sure, I understand. Okay. Couple things that I wanted to ask you about. Um would you mind s if we stepped out for a little bit and Sure. came back okay with you. This is a big moment. The detectives leave to decide. Do they confront him head on, drop the suspect bomb, or let him think he's just helping out? They're weighing whether to let him keep digging his own hole or shove him straight into it. Spoiler, they're about to corner him. Hey, how you doing? So, what I want to do is kind of show you some of the stuff that we do have here. um and why it's important why it's so important that you we you get your cooperation. One of the things that you told us was that you have uh driven out there uh in your car. You think you've driven out there in your car. We have a picture of your car that shows it was gone out to the trails that day. Okay. And um now one of the important things for us is to help understand exactly where you were where you were at that day. Uh what was going on? You've already told us that you were out there. That's really really important. Okay. Obvious. So with that, uh what I wanted to do is try to help you work through this whole thing. Um we we we I'm going to be completely honest with you. We we've been able to talk to your wife and talk to your daughter already while this is all happening. We had time to do all that. Sure. And uh we've heard that you had some issues uh even had at one point put a gun in your mouth that you were going to do something to yourself maybe for years or so. Yes. Uh and you know, look um there's a lot here that we need to get clarified. Okay. As you well know, we have pictures of an individual who was on the bridge. And to some great degree, you described that individual as wearing yourself as wearing blue jeans, a jacket that's of the same color as that. It described a hat. It's hard to see the shoes, but they're brown. Okay. And this is a picture was taken with the phone of one of the girls. Okay, I understand that. And the question needs to be, is that you if it was taken with the girl's phone, that is absolutely I mean, it's not me, but I never have met these girls before. So, even if I thought it looked like me, I if it was taken with the girl's phone, there's no way it could be. I've never met them. I've never seen them. Look, killer or not, he literally admits he saw girls. So denying that part is definitely a mistake. Now, all right. So that's and as far Well, and let's just stop there. As far as my psychological wellbeing, okay, it has been [clears throat] I've been dealing with that for years. It's not something new. It's not something because I went out and killed girls. Now I got psychological problems. Have I had issues? Did I stick a gun? I know how a gun works. And I wasn't going to shoot myself that night. It was probably a cry for help that night. You've obviously talked to my wife. So, it is what it is. But I know that you haven't talked to anybody that knows me, has been around me, my family, not my family, that thinks that I may have been involved in this. But this this this image, this person right here, he's wearing like a car heart jacket just like you just told us. Okay. He's wearing the same clothing that you just told us. We We just need to know what happened. Why? Sure. I mean, I said I was wearing blue jeans. Now, I think blue jeans is a pretty common thing that people wear. And I said I was probably wearing a black or a blue coat. It could have been a car heart, a zip up with a hoodie in it. I've had black ones. I've had a blue one or blue one and a black one. Like I guess you know you tell me what I told you I was wearing and saying that that's me and it so so the other kind of and you're serious. You you literally want me to like that is a you want me to say that that's my car? Well we looked at it matches everything that's not that is your car. Okay. Well I'm saying that picture is like okay I Yeah. No that that there's zero doubt that you Okay. We're just showing you what we have and why we need to eliminate you. That's well the point. Sure. All right. Well, we're all done here. Here's our resume. Here's here's what I want to say to you at this point. You know, look, we have a lot of information here that we need clarification. Sure. And that's exactly why we're talking to you at this time. And that's why we Yeah. You you even came here to the center and drove down you you rode in a car with us. Yeah. and and we had a chance to sit down and talk and not a fellow who is I think a mean fella. You know, you're not the kind of guy that would go out and do something malicious to somebody. So, a lot of what we're trying to get figured out here today right now is exactly uh what's going on here? Why is this information showing us one thing, but then you're telling us another? What is it showing you? What is this information? I'm going to say that isn't just say that is my car. I I told you I could have been driving that car. Yeah, that's right. I I don't know what it is. You're But this this seems to have taken a turn. You know, you're you're sitting here and you're talking because you're asking me things and I get that most people. But now it's turning into most people have wanted to be eliminated from this. Well, sure. That's what that's I don't want to be included to begin with. So until the point that you you have something that tells you that I did this and you want to subpoena or arrest me or something, I've got nothing to worry about. So I'm not real concerned here. But your attitudes towards me have definitely changed and I don't like the fact that you know it feels more like I'm being interrogated and I'm I'm going to tell that you've already talked to my wife and my daughter and stuff like how straightforward is that? First things first, a changed attitude is what happens to criminals. Secondly, whether he admits it or not, Richard Allen has reason to worry, you know. Well, what would you Okay, let's put let's turn everything around. Tell me what you would do differently if you were in our situation. We you had this information. How would you react? What would you do? You do the same thing that we were doing right now. What information is it that you have? You have that I was out there and I told you from the very beginning that I was out there. You did. I didn't hide any Did you Did you see this guy? I didn't know. Okay. I told you. I see the only person that I I I clearly remember seeing that. And this isn't from the day. I mean, this is the next day. The only people or person that that came into my mind were those three girls that I seen. Richard, we're not upset with you. Not mad at you or anything like that. We're just trying to get to the [clears throat] bottom of this. Okay. No, I I'm not, you know, I'm not here to give you a hard time. I'm just here to try to get this situation straightened out. And what we want to do is simply get to the truth. What would help us get to the truth is being able to look inside of some of the things you're talking about. Okay. And I get that. Okay. Uh, and on the other side of things, sure. And on the other side of things, I if I thought I had something that was going to help you that would, you know, what do I have that's going to help you? Okay. Well, I have I have some questions we could go through here if you don't mind. And let me put I think we're done. We have some other questions here that we could go through here. And what I could do questions what does that hurt? Some of the questions that we can ask you is simply this. And I don't you feel like these questions always sound strange and it be very even accusing in nature but I want you to understand I'm not trying to offend you. I I help us out by getting to a little bit farther along in this matter. So I don't know. I like I said I you you went you talked to my daughter and my wife. I can't tell you what happened. I can tell you that if that picture was I mean you can you can you can sit and take anybody and say well if they were wearing this and wearing that that could be done. If that picture was taken from one of the girls phones it's here's the problem because I've never met them. I know but listen here's the problem with that. You know why you can put a lot of people and and say they're wearing blue jeans and a blue coat but you know what the difference is? No, you said you were there. Well, sure. We have people that saw you. As long as he doesn't ask for a lawyer, detectives can basically push, prod, and suggest whatever they want within legal limits. Of course, the absence of legal representation leaves him psychologically exposed. Detectives can apply direct and indirect tactics like rapport building, guilt, subtle intimidation to illicit confessions or mistakes. Okay. Ricky said you were out on the bridge yourself. There aren't that many people that saw me. I mean, I'm sure I didn't miss that many people. If they walked behind me, I guess you said that you were out on the bridge, this bridge, yourself, that day around the time when this happened. No, I didn't. You said you walked out onto the bridge. When we talked to you earlier, you said that you walked out to about the first platform or within that area without the bridge. That's what you told us. We know that you were on the bridge. Of course, I was. Okay. And I told you. And with that, you know, we can we can say that is this person you? That's that's the question. Is that person you? That's the question we have to answer. Sure. Okay. So if that person is you, we know this person followed the girls all the way to the other side of the ridge and then told them to go down the hill. Follow the I don't even know what you're talking about. Like you're saying don't Okay, so the bridge here. Okay, this this is the girls walking towards the other side of the bridge from where the trail head is at. The other side. the other side of the bridge and this person followed them all the way to the other side of the bridge where the Yeah. So and told them to go down the hill. Okay. So, let me stop here. I don't appreciate you. You're trying to talk me into No, this is what I said. You're trying to change my words around. I told you I was on the bridge. Now, you just told me this is this is the trail head side of the bridge over here on this side. And you're saying And you're saying the soldier walked on the bridge. You said you walked on that bridge that day. And that first trestle is somewhere. Oh, back there. Okay. It's somewhere over there. Help me understand. Okay. You came out this far. We know it was You came out that far. You came out. You came out that far. That's what you told us. I'm not going to tell you how. I can't tell by that how far out I was. Okay. I'm just telling you. You're saying that's me and you're saying this is the the far side of the bridge. I don't even go out that far anymore. I hadn't for years. Mhm. Okay. For years. But back then, that was in 2017. Okay. And And the question is, is this you? No. Maybe it had been a better strategy not to corner him so early. But that's why they are the experts and we are not. While some interrogators might delay revealing conclusions to prolong rapport, in this case, declaring him a suspect tightens psychological pressure, subtly implying that escape is no longer possible. So, you're telling me that uh this person was out there on the bridge and wore the same clothing that you have on that day, but you didn't see them. You can't tell that's a black car heart coat, a blue car heart coat, a pullover. I told you I could have been wearing this. The two best the two the two uh kinds of clothing you said you wore that day was uh a either black car heart coat or a blue car heart coat. Okay. You said you had blue jeans, right? Okay. And I've had jackets. Okay. So, put yourself in my chair. I guess what I'm saying is I don't I'm not going to tell you I wasn't wearing a black car ride that day. I told you I could have been. I don't know if that's a black car ever. And if it is, it's not mine. It's his. And you said you had a hat. You normally wear a skull cap which covers I said I carry one. So if I was wearing one, it would be like a skull cap or a smaller type of hat or something. Okay. So this is the situation we're at. Okay. Basically this either you were out there to do this to the girls or you were out there to be able to introduce the girls to somebody else. Okay, good luck finding anything that points in that direction. I mean, when a suspect says good luck, it's often less about competence and more about hoping they actually don't. Defensive bravado like this often masks deep anxiety. By verbally daring investigators, he seems to be trying to reclaim control of a rapidly collapsing situation. It's not me. You're not going to make me believe it's me. You're not going to find anything that ties me to those murders. So, I'm not really that concerned. You know, you you went from trying to I don't know what you want to say, get my trust and then slowly lure me into telling you I killed somebody and I'm not going to do it. You know, I I don't know where this course. I'm I'm I'm not trying to give you a hard time. Really not. I just want you to put yourself in the situation where we as police officers are looking at all the evidence that we have and what you've told us right now. Okay? Okay. [clears throat] Not trying to give you a hard time. Just want to make sure that we get everything taken care of here. That's why we wanted to look at the things that we wanted to look at. And that's not going to happen now. I mean, like I said, we're done here. So, arrest me or take me home. I understand. So, arrest me or take me home. I'm done. Okay. So that day is your phone. So uh on that day you went out there and on the bridge and that you were wearing the same clothing uh that basically the same clothing that this person here is wearing. That's what you think. I I don't know how you can tell that that's a black car heart coat, which is what I told you. Black or blue car heart car coat. Blue Never mind. This is ridiculous. You're [snorts] trying to tell me that that I gave you a description of this guy and I didn't I mean he's we all looked at this thing for months and years and um to me that doesn't even look like a car heart code. I Well, you can't say it's not, can you? I mean neither one of us can. You're right. Can't say it's right. I mean we can't say that it's not a car code. We can't say that that hat isn't similar to the one that you've you was have had at one point. Nothing screams I'm not taking this seriously like scrolling your phone while two detectives are closing in. Okay. With all those things in view, you you've lost my trust. I I'm not going to talk to you anymore. This is stupid. Now you pissed me off. Well, I'm sorry about that. Okay. Let's get Are you arresting me? Well, I I really swear I'm going to try to get this thing worked out. Okay, I want to try to get this thing worked out. When a suspect pivots to blaming investigators for lost trust, it's typically a stalling tactic or a way to emotionally detach from escalating pressure. He says it's about trust, but it's not. It's about panic. Am I afraid to leave or not? You've always been afraid to leave. Thank you. You're an [ __ ] Some attitude from a guy who killed two little girls in cold blood for no reason at all. Insulting authority figures in private moments reveals displaced aggression and the release of suppressed hostility when the immediate threat is gone form which means absolutely nothing to this is a property record and receipt. So this it's going to read kind of funny but you'll see. So we seal everything. So, sealed paper bag containing one pair of dirty toe good boot size 7.5 men. Um, and then on down. So, we basically we took the clothing that you had mentioned that you possibly could have been wearing the day you're on the bridge. Okay. And then we also took some knives. Okay. We took your car. And then we also took a some weapon, a Sig Sig 40. Right. Okay. Right there. I used to be a beretta guy. I was in the Marine Corps. Yeah. Got the berettas. And then when I first got on the state police, we had berettas as well. And then we went to Glocks for a little bit. Sure. And then we went to Sigs. Trying to think of what we even had. I think the Berettas were probably coming out before I got just before I got out cuz they used to have the old 45s. Betta? No, they were Springfield. I have no idea honestly. [snorts] They were the one government issued 45s. Yeah. Yeah. We had the I think there were 40 berettas and I think when I came on in 2001 and the state police we had bettas but we went to Glocks. Not a huge fan of Glocks but uh Sigs. Mhm. If I could build an indoor range and afford the ammo, I'd shoot that thing every day. Yeah. You shoot your I've not had a lot of experience. [snorts] No. No. I mean target practice here and there. It's probably been I don't even remember. I haven't shot them in a long time. I know that. Do they have like an indoor range in Deli? No, not that I know of. Honestly, I don't even know where. I haven't looked. There used to be one in Cookamo is the only thing I know where you live. That's where I Yeah. And you live in town, so you can't go out your back door and shoot it. No, I probably could. It probably wouldn't be a good idea, but I live out in the country, so I know my closest neighbor's like 2 miles away, so I shoot mine out there. I got like a ditch. Mhm. I don't have an indoor range. I have like a ditch I can shoot and stuff like that. So, [snorts] um, like I said, these are the items that we took. These are the items that we're testing. Some some tests take longer than others, as you know. Um, [snorts] so the lab wants me to ask a few questions just about to help us with the testing, and you'll understand when I ask you. Okay. So, for example, they took a lot of swabs. They're taking swabs off of everything. Um, so what they want to know is, have you ever loaned anything out that we've taken? And again, I just told you what we took. I realized that, but mostly some of the major items that have you ever loaned them out for an significant time because if if for example, my buddy's fuel pump went out in his truck. He said, "Hey, can I borrow your old truck?" And I said, "Yeah." Said it's going to be two weeks, ended up being five or six months. That would be a significant time time frame that my buddy's DNA would be in that truck. Is there anything that you've loaned out for besides your family members? We don't we don't care about your wife's DNA that I can think of. You never loaned a truck out or your uh sorry, it's a Ford Focus. Is that what it is? I I mean, if I do, I certainly don't remember. Most of most of my family has vehicles, so extra vehicles. Yeah. And the same thing like my son, he sometimes will come over and leave his coat and I'll wear it for a couple months or something like that. But um or my son-in-law, he'll he'll spend money on guns. He's a gun freak. He likes to buy guns and then he'll be like, "Hey, can I borrow 500 bucks?" And then he'll give me his one of his guns was collateral. And then when he gets the money back, anything like that that you know of? Yeah. So, um, I'll let the lab know that. That's one of the big things. And then, like I said, some some of the tests are already back. I do want to talk to you about one of the tests that we got the results back. U, oh, the other thing is any of these knives or the gun? Did you have that the day that you recall having that with you on the day of the um, 13th when you were out there on the bridge? Mhm. Do you remember if you if you did or you didn't? I didn't. I just went out for a short walk that day. Okay. [snorts] Okay. Well, we'll get to the meat and potatoes of this. Rick, I appreciate you being cooperative with me. I want to talk about the results of your handgun. Okay. Okay. So handguns, as you know, probably you may know more about them than I do. I don't know a lot, but they're very specific as far as the characteristics of the gun. So the firing pin is different from your firing pin. The extraction device is different from my extraction device. And they're basically what the lab has told me is that they're like fingerprints. They're specific to that gun and that gun only. Okay. Okay. So, we took your gun, your 40 cal cow sig, and we sent it down there to the lab to have it matched with an item that we located on February the 14th when we found the girls. Okay. And that item was a 40 caliber Winchester round. We found that at the scene. Okay. The extraction marks on that round match your gun. Perfect. So, this is Okay, just hear me out. I'm just trying. I am. So, this is the round. Okay, those are the extraction marks. That's the best picture of them. There's actually three of them. That's the other that's the same round that we found. Okay. Um, and like I said, the methodology that they use is scientific and they're telling me and this is the report. You can read it if you wish. I don't need to read it. Okay. Well, I'm just trying to help you. You know, let me tell you something. Um, you know, the prosecutor and the other investigators, they want to they want to see you lock lock you up, throw away the key. I I think you're ridiculous. Listen, just listen to me for two minutes. Let me explain this to you. I'm on your side. I talked to you a little bit out there on the scene. I'm I know you mentioned a couple times you don't want to be the fall guy for this. Um you also mentioned to me the other day when I was telling you, hey, I want to check the property out, make sure there's no damage, and you said doesn't matter. It's over. You know, you make comments like that to me that really concerned me. Sure. Right. It's concerning. And what I mean by it's over is that you've already started something here that there's no backing out of. So you've done the damage is done, I guess, is what I'm saying. And that's what I would have been referring to. Okay. And I agree with that. We have started this. We've been working on this for a long time. And all the evidence is clearly indicating you're involved in this. And listen to me, Rick. I don't believe you're the you should be the fall guy. But all the evidence you say you're out there. We have witnesses out there. We have your vehicle. We have experts. We have experts that say that's you on the video and that's your voice on the video. Okay. Experts. Not me cuz I'm not an expert. I got you. Okay. And now we have your round. Mhm. at the scene. Not on the bridge. You said you're on the bridge. I don't even know how my bullet would have gotten out there if that's my bullet. There's It's without a doubt that this is very okay scientific. So, let me show you a picture of this round where it was found. That's the round right there. It hadn't been out there very long. That is Liberty's foot. It's within six inches of of one of the dead girls bodies. There's no way it there isn't. I'm telling you there's not. How How did How did that round get there, Rick? I don't know how the round got there. What I'm telling you is if that is truly what you're saying it is, it's not mine. It's not my round. The scientific experts are saying I got a report saying that that round came from your gun. Okay, but understand this. You were on the bridge. I told you I was on the bridge. Listen, right now, like I said, I got a prosecutor and investigators ready to lock you up. And if you don't give us the narrative, if you don't tell us your side of the story, there's two sides of every story. Hang on. Okay. I'm trying to help you. I I get that the media is going to portray you as this monster and you don't want your wife and it's already going to get there anyway. So, yeah. So, this is your chance to tell us exactly why. Unlike so some people, most people, I care what people think about me. And then you do. I You've already set that ball rolling. Yeah, but there's only one way to get out in front of it, and that's to tell the truth. What happened that day to to I can't tell you what happened that day. You can tell us. There's no There's no doubt in my mind that the evidence clearly indicates you're involved in this. Are you the Are you the mastermind behind this? I don't know. Mastermind. Okay. Did somebody else set this up? I don't know, Rick. I want to know. And only you know. The truth will set you free. That's it. The truth will protect you from the Well, that's what I would have thought. Well, tell the truth. Tell me how this round got next to one of our girls in between both girls. I don't know. You do know. And if you don't tell me, you're going down for this. [clears throat] Okay. Could it be duper delight? That's a micro expression where individuals unconsciously smile when they feel they're successfully deceiving others. In this context, his smile amid talk of murder isn't nervousness. You think it's misplaced manipulative satisfaction? I'm serious. This is not This isn't a joking matter. I'm not joking. Do you realize what you've done to me? This is like you you've talked to the people I work with. you've talked to my neighbors. You know, I I've got anxiety. I I got all kinds of stress and and and depression and and one of the big things is I I'm you cannot even think something about me, but if I think you think something about me, it bothers me. And that's already done because people out there already know that you think I did something. I don't think and I didn't Okay, Rick, I don't think that the evidence clearly indicates you're involved. So So if I if you were in my seat and I I had you saying you're out there, witnesses saying you're out there at the same time the girls. And now after a search warrant of your house, we find a gun, your gun, you own that gun, right? I do. When did you buy it? Oh my gosh. I don't even remember. 2001. I'll I'll check it for you. I know a lot of the answers to the questions I'm going to ask you, but I'm just trying to give you the opportunity to be honest. That's why I asked the question. So, you bought it in 2001 in Peru. Okay. And I asked you if you ever loan anything out. I gave you a scenarios. No. So, that's your gun. Either you had that gun or somebody had that gun. There's no way that round gets on that property where these two girls were killed without that gun being there. And you're there. Your car's there. Witnesses say there is no way a round from my gun was anywhere near the girls the bridge. It just didn't happen. And and listen, we're trying to help you. We're trying to help you prove. No, you're trying to accuse me of murdering two little call me down. You ask me a few questions. You ask me what I'm wearing and I tell you what I think I was probably wearing that day and then you try to say that I'm saying that's me in that picture and it's not. You don't have to say that. You're I'm done. Well, I have a I have a warrant for your DNA. For your DNA first? What do you think I have a warrant for? You know, I have a warrant. What? I figure you're going to arrest me. You obviously think I done it. The damage is done. Go ahead and do what you're going to do. Okay. Well, this doesn't just go away. I know. Exactly. We I The only person I think can explain all this is you. And you're not explaining it to me. I don't know what it is you want me to explain. What were you doing on the bridge? How did your round get there? And why did you kill these two girls? Or why were you involved in this? What was your involvement? I had no idea. I don't think Listen, Rick, I don't think you're the one that that that killed them. I don't think you're the one that stuck the knife in. Are you that guy? Really? Are you asking you? I anybody that knows me knows I could never even if I wanted to do something like that. That's not who I am. Then what happened? I can't tell you. How do you expect me to tell? You want me to make up a story and and No, the truth. The truth is simple. You don't have to make that up. You just go back and tell me the truth. You can't tell me that this event has not been weighing on you for years and years and years. You're out there. I've told you the truth. I I don't know what you want me to do at this point. I've been so nice to you. Oh, let's see. I've been so nice to you. Oh, yeah. You're being nice. You're trying to get me to confess to something I had nothing to do with trying to get you to tell the truth. I'm not trying to trick you. I've drawn out what we have. It's not. It has to be the truth. They The scientists don't lie. The science doesn't lie. That's awesome. It's saying that that round came from your gun. I don't understand all that. All I'm telling you is there's way that a round from my gun, the one that you took from my house, ended up next to a murder scene or anywhere else. I don't know where you got that bullet. If it came out of my gun right there. No, that's the round. Then it didn't come out of my gun. That round was collected. Then it didn't come out It didn't come out of my gun, Rick. That round was collected on the 14th of February, 2017. Okay. It's been in evidence ever since. Okay. All right. And we've compared other weapons to that. I understand what you're saying, but I can't explain it. I'm just telling you that if that was next to a murder site or anywhere near it, it didn't come out of my gun. And I don't know where you would have got one that did come out of my gun. Right there. [snorts] It was there. It was fast. Okay. And I don't think you realize the severity of this. You you realize the death penalty is on the table for this. You know what? I don't really care about living at this point. I've dealt with not wanting to live for 7 8 years now. It's been a long [ __ ] battle and with what you guys have done to me. Kill me. I don't give a [ __ ] You'll make my wife rich. So, is that what she wants? Is that what your daughter wants? They don't want any of this to even be happening. Well, it is. I can't turn this. Exactly. You were there. You're you're there. Experts say that's you on the video. Okay. The experts are saying you said down the hill to the girls. The experts are saying all this. The all the evidence indicates you were out there. The witnesses saw you. The witness saw you. Did you said you didn't see anybody else on the bridge, but there was a girl that walked up, a lady that walked up and saw you on the platform. Rick. Okay. You didn't see her. And then right after that, these two girls that end up dead. minutes later, walk by her and she looks back and sees them passing you. You're the last person to have contact with Abby and Libby. Your weapon, your gun out of your weapon is I've never contacted Abby and Libby. I've never even met him that day. Why? Who? I didn't. That's all I want to know is the truth. You're not. [clears throat] I told you the truth. Do what you need to do. Okay. Well, let me get the I have the warrant here for your DNA and then let me uh step out and see and they'll come in and swab you with it. That's fine. Well, I'm trying to help you, but All right. I think they got the warning. So, hang on one second. That headshake is doing a lot of emotional heavy lifting right now. It could be. I can't believe they're pinning this on me. Or damn, they really have something. [snorts] Well, balls in your court, Rick. You just took my DNA. So, what you were telling me out there, it's over, huh? The damage is done. I I don't know. I'm sorry that you think this is funny. You keep laughing. Maybe it's just a nervous laugh. I don't know, but I'm I'm trying to help you. Notice how the detective doesn't let that weird laugh slide because it shouldn't be in there in the first place. Inappropriate laughter can signify nervous deflection or subconscious pleasure, and both are alarming in the context of a double homicide. Yes. Why is all the Why is all this evidence clearly indicating that you're involved? I can't tell you that. And all what you're talking to me about is a bullet that was found by the murder scene next to It's more than just that. You have to listen to me for just two minutes straight. Just open Just forget about everything else. Okay. The girls have a video of you. Experts are saying without a doubt that is you on the bridge. That is your voice. How they do it, I don't know. I'm not an expert. Okay, that's what they're saying. We have five witnesses that see you out there on the bridge with the girls. Don't see that. Right. Why don't you see that? I'm not lying to you. I'm Because it didn't happen. It did happen. There could have been somebody that seen me that I didn't see. What I'm telling you is they didn't see me anywhere near the girls or anybody else because I wasn't around anybody that day. So, I'm I'm done answering. Like, I know you're trying to get trick me into saying that. I'm not tricking you. I don't care how stressed out I get. I'm not going to [ __ ] admit to something that I had nothing to do with. I'm not asking you to do that. I'm not trying to trick you. I didn't I listen I have a full hand of cards here. I'm not laying all my cards on the table. Okay. I'm telling you bits and pieces hoping that you will realize that without a doubt we have you out there the time of the murder. We have clearly indicates that you're involved in this. Clearly it does not. There is nothing that you could have that's going to indicate me because I wasn't out there. And you don't think that you're around 6 in away? I know that a round I know that a round from my gun did not end up at a murder scene. You're wrong. Okay. And the proof is right here. I don't believe it. I mean, well, you're going to I'm not. You said you didn't want to be the fall guy. You're being the fall guy because you won't give us this your side of the story. The truth. I don't care. You should care. You're not going to prove I did something I didn't do. You're exactly right. We're not. We're going to prove what you did. Your involvement in this involvement. What What was my involvement? You tell me. You were there. And I told you I had nothing to do with it. I told you I never even seen them. I wasn't there. I'm not on video. Four witness seen me. Four or five witness didn't see me out there. And I can And my round wasn't out of my gun. wasn't 6 in away from a dead girl's foot. Mine either. Yeah. And I'm telling you, you're living in this world. Okay. And I don't know why. I'm showing you some of the evidence that we have. And I'm giving you the opportunity to give your narrative because if you don't, they're going to make it up and you know that media, not even media, media is mild compared to social media. Is going to portray you as this monster. Are you a monster? They're already going to do that. You've already talked when you when you get arrested for this. It doesn't even matter because I actually care about what people think. Yeah, you do. I said I do. I actually care about what people think. That's why So do I. That's why you've already done the damage. How How am I supposed to Never mind. No, please talk to me. I I just clear this up in my head. I just I just don't know how I'm supposed to act like this never happened. You can't You can't act I'm not saying the murder. I'm saying I That's exactly what you're saying. You're audience slips occur when suppressed thoughts breach conscious control. In high stakes interrogation, such moments are invaluable. Your conscious is trying to tell you this is the day. This is the time. This is the time to get out in front of this. Rick, you made a mistake. You got in the middle of this. You got in the middle of this. You cannot you cannot explain all the evidence away. And you're saying, "Oh, that's not that's that's not me. I'm just telling you what we have. Some of what we have, okay? And we're still working on other things. Okay? But you I'm not going to tell you I did something I didn't do. I don't want you to say. End of story. And I appreciate that. What did you do? What is your involvement? Who else? You know, I have a hundred different questions, but if you're not willing to tell the truth, it's a waste of your time and mine. And you're going down for something that you have maybe some involvement in. Maybe maybe this is all you. That's what Where is this? Where's this guy that's that's saying that I helped him? You tell me. I'm not saying that. I didn't never did I say today that you're saying that I was involved. Well, if I didn't do it, but I'm involved, what are you saying? If you got somebody saying I helped them do it, they're [ __ ] crazy. Okay. I never said that. Did I? I just said you're involved. What What is your involvement? Is that a theory that some people may have that knows? I just want you to tell me all the truth. I just want you to be completely honest with me. If you're going to arrest me, arrest me. I'm not talking anymore. This is ridiculous. I just thought maybe you would appreciate my effort to help you. I mean, apparently you don't because after today [clears throat] I can't help you. I understand that. You do understand that. I don't need your help. You need help. [snorts] You don't think this any of this is important? I think that nothing that you have is going to show me anywhere near the murder of two little girls. That's what I'm telling you. I'm telling you, we do have that. You don't. It's not possible. It is possible. Whatever. [snorts] I know I was in there. Could you just give me [clears throat] You wouldn't you don't want to talk about that about any of it? Okay. What I failed to tell you, too, is the witnesses saw a gun in your in your pocket. No, they didn't. You're saying you didn't have a gun? I'm saying I do not have a gun when you were out there. And you told me earlier no one borrowed that gun. I probably never would have let somebody borrow my gun. Probably wouldn't have, but I'm asking you, did you? No. Okay. And again, I tried to clarify this earlier. You and I both know I'm not a scientist and you're not a scientist, but what the scientists are telling me is this extraction mark is like a fingerprint. It's unique to the gun. And we've been working on this for over 5 and 1/2 years. We get a search warrant for your house, find your gun, because we were told when we found that round that it had three extraction marks on it. And [clears throat] without a doubt, they would be able to match that extraction mark to the gun. Not type of gun, the gun. We've taken multiple guns down there and they have not matched to those extraction marks. Mhm. your gun does 100% without a doubt. It's in a it's in this certificate of analysis. The scientists say that that the marks on that gun are match your gun. And I'm telling you, it didn't happen. I didn't shoot anybody. I've never even pointed a gun at anybody. I'm not saying you shot anybody. I'm saying a fully intact round from your gun is on the was And I'm telling you that's not possible. It is. It It's not. How is it not? Because I wasn't there. You were there. You said you were there. [sighs and gasps] There's some I told you I was on the trail. I didn't tell you I was at a murder site. This round is telling me you were there. You didn't I don't care what it's telling you. You didn't lend your gun to anybody. I asked you that. Did you? I'm done answering questions. Just arrest me. I'm done. I'm trying to help you, Rick. I don't know what you want me to tell you. I'm not going to sit here and tell you something that's not true so you can feel better about this. I don't I I already feel good about this. Okay. I feel good about what the experts are telling me. Okay. I feel good about the scientific evidence. I feel good about the witness statements. I feel good about everything. What I don't feel good about is you being a fall guy for anybody or everybody or anybody involved in this, if that's possible. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you did do this all by yourself. That that's exactly I know you keep snickering at that, but that's exactly what what's going to be portrayed of you. You're this evil monster that was just hunting for two teenage girls so you could just go down there and terrorize them and kill them. And that's not true. Is it? I told you. You and I both know that that's not true. You and I both know what happened. The evidence clearly is indicating. Now, there's some there's some missing pieces, and I'm going to find those missing pieces. Okay? And it would be easier if you helped me find those missing pieces. Oh [sighs] my god. I'm not going to sit here and tell you I did something I didn't do. I don't want you to. I told you that. That's exactly what you want me to do. What else would you want me to do but tell you I did it? And I'm not going to because I didn't. I've never been around those two girls in my life. You were on the trail that day. I was on the trail that day and I told you that they walked right by you according to witnesses. No, they didn't. I never even seen them. Like I think I'm going to see somebody if they walked past me. Am I not? I'm not saying somebody didn't see me that I didn't see. All I'm telling you is I never seen those two girls. And why didn't you report this day one? Report what? That you were out there and you saw these two girls. you were in the area. The very day that they came out and said that they wanted anybody who might have been out there to come in, that's what I did. I went down to the police station. I said, "Hey, I was out at the trail that day." Did you want to? Well, I obviously did or I wouldn't have. Did your wife encourage you to? Cuz she's talking to us. She's talking to us right now and she's I'm sure she is. And she's going to tell you there's no way in hell that I'd ever do this. So, we're all good. That's not what was going on, Rick. Then I don't know what is. I just wish you'd be honest. That's all I know. Oh my god. I don't know. I have been honest with you. And you obviously don't believe me. I don't because if this evidence wasn't there, I would. [sighs] Okay. You don't believe this evidence is I don't. We're not here. There's no way possible. We didn't. There is no way possible that a round from my gun ended up at a murder scene. It's not possible. So, something's obviously wrong. Something is wrong. Exactly. We both know what's wrong. I didn't do it. And I'm not going to sit here all day trying to convince you that I didn't do it. You obviously think that I did. I'm not going to sit here all day and convince you that I think that that you did do it, Rick. I'm just laying down some of the evidence that we have. Okay. And we're going to get more. I don't think so. I'm only giving you the opportunity to get out in front of this. This is your opportunity. Like she said earlier, the truth is easy. I've got nothing to get out in front of. I'm not going to tell you I did something I didn't do. Okay. Okay. And I don't want you to tell me something that you didn't do. Then stop asking me to. I'm not I'm just asking you to tell the truth about this day. I asked you to go back and rehash it and you wouldn't. Why? I I told you because I'm not going to You guys are like trying to trick me into doing something. I'm not trying to trick you. I told you what happened. You've already got it. There's no need for me to tell you again. Story. Whatever. There aren't any. I don't know how I can make this any clearer. I'm not going to tell you that I had something to do with this. Okay. And I don't know how I can make this any clearer. We have evidence indicating that you're clearly involved. Okay. And that's that's sad that you want help. Okay. Cuz if that was your if that was your daughter out there, you help some people help. You're damn right I would. You're right. But you don't. [clears throat] So While the community was out searching for the missing girls, his wife reportedly wanted to join in the search efforts, but Richard allegedly discouraged her from going out to help find them. What's even stranger is that after the murders, Allan took his own daughter to the exact same Mon High Bridge Trail to click pictures of her. The idea that he would bring his child to the scene of a double child murder mere months later is beyond disturbing. Still waiting cuz sounds like your wife's talking and she's being honest. So, um, she basically said you can't believe you lied to her. So, you're lying to us, too. But So, is there a reason why you have this this round in your little keep safe box? You What kind of ammo did you have for your Sig? I don't know. Blazer. I don't know. I'm telling you. At that time, at that time you had Winchester. Okay. The round we found was Winchester. the the the ammo you had in your gun and for your gun at the time was blazer, but this was a Winchester. It says right there, Winchester. Same exact type of round. We've been I know. I'm just giving the opportunity. Like I said, your wife, please. Please stop giving me. She says ever since 2017, she's saying that you didn't want to go. She You wouldn't let her go on the search party. She wanted to help. Oh, and she's saying that I think I know my wife. Well, I'm just telling you say some stupid [ __ ] like that. You want me to bring her in and tell you? She's telling the truth about what what happened. You didn't tell her, but you've lied to her for years is how she feels right now because and your depression has gotten considerably worse since this incident, which is this has been going on for seven, eight years now, but it's gotten worse since this since Well, it's got really bad. I could see why. If I killed two two girls, I would get Oh my god. I would have depression, too. I would have mental issues, too. I'm sure you would living with this. I'm sure you would. And that's why you are. Here's [snorts] what I think, Rick. I don't know. Only you know. But here's my theory. You're out there. Maybe somebody set this up. Maybe they didn't. Maybe you're out there. Maybe we know you're out there. That That's That's not a theory. That's a fact. We know you had a gun. Girl sold a gun in there. We know you We know you have anger issues. Your wife told us before that you have some anger issues and you have depression and you have, you know, those types of issues. And maybe this girl said something to you. I don't know. Maybe you said go down the hill, which we know. The experts say you said go down the hill. You get down there and they, you know, they piss you off for whatever reason. You racked the gun. You didn't realize you racked that gun to scare them and that round popped out. You didn't realize it because maybe do you carry that gun with a with a round chambered or do you not have it chambered? When I carry it, I would have a round chamber. Well, you're carrying it that day cuz you're sick. So, if you have one chambered and what I'm saying is if you if I have a round chamber, which I do, and I rack this gun right now around a fully intact round will pop out. Correct. I assume that's what's happened and you didn't realize it. Okay. And that's why that round's there on the ground and this is your opportunity and you say that you don't want any of this and that. You please stop giving me opportunities. I I'm not going to sit here and tell you I did something I didn't do. Okay. Tell me. I'm not going to tell you I'm involved with something. Tell me what you did on that day. Help me. I didn't murder two little girls. What did you do? I went for a walk on the trail and I went home and I told you the details of the best I can remember of what I did that day and what the walk was. I'm not going this is ridiculous. I'm not going to just keep repeating myself. Okay. So, but I'm not going to keep bringing up more evidence either. I mean, I can only give you so much. Experts testified that he experienced significant mental health decline while incarcerated, including symptoms of psychosis, which made him bang his head against the wall and even eat his own feces and smear it on the walls. Cuz right now this you are already out there by witnesses and you and I both know that realistically the evidence doesn't lie. So it's it obviously does I think I think I know you well enough maybe I don't that if you did know somebody borrowed your gun or had your gun you would tell us. Of course I would. Okay. So, it's realistic for me to believe that [snorts] you were the only one to have your gun. Excuse me. I've answered that 15 times. Okay. And you said it 15 times. That's You can't explain why you're around is by this dead girl's foot because it's not. But it is. You believe in science. You believe in analysis. Do you believe that our lab that that round's been in storage since the 14th of 2017? I am telling you that any round involved in this whole thing did not come from my gun. And I'm telling you, you're lying about that because I have evidence that it is. You don't. That's not evidence that I'm telling you. Never mind. Please tell me. I'm all ears. Tell me. I've got nothing to say. This is ridiculous. So, you're saying you didn't have the gun on the trail, so there's no way you racked it out there on the trail and somebody might have picked this round up. What I'm telling you is I don't carry my gun. I I carry my gun if we go fishing along the river, like night fishing. Um I carry my gun if we're gonna go out and trump through the woods mushroom hunting somewhere. That's about the only times I even carry my gun. And you weren't mushroom hunting and you weren't fishing that day. It was like February or something. February 13th, 2017. You realize mushrooms don't grow that early, right? Yes. About May, right? April. I'll walk around there. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Why would I be mushroom hunting? I'm just saying you weren't mushroom hunting and you weren't fishing. You're just walking on the trail. There's no way you would I'm I'm trying to figure out how that round got out there. If you're adamant that it is your round, I mean, you can't deny that it's a round from your gun. Did you rack it on the trail? on, you know, I I didn't I didn't have my gun that day. Never racked it on the trail. I didn't have my gun that day ever. Any day. Do you ever remember racking your gun on that trail? No, I don't. You ever remember racking your gun while you're mushroom hunting out there in the years prior? Do you ever remember racking your gun when you were fishing? Did you ever go fishing there? Not usually. No. In February. Why do you Why do you carry it? Why would you carry your gun? I'm not a fisherman or hunter. [snorts] Why would you carry a gun if you're out mushroom hunting? Just cuz you're going to be out in the boond docks. You just never know who you're going to run into. Personal protection. Okay. Or snakes or something like that. I guess I probably wouldn't shoot a snake. You wouldn't? No, I would. Well, I hate snakes. I'm not saying I like them. I guess I'm quicker than a snake. I can get away maybe. When you do carry it, do you carry like a just on your hip or do you carry it like one of those fancy holsters or do you just put it in your pocket or It's kind of holster. Some seconds or minutes have been edited out in this interview. What was in those missing moments? More lies, a confession, or just an unraveling they didn't want us to see. Every redacted clip holds a secret. And in a case this disturbing, even seconds matter. All right, let me uh let me see what uh what the prosecutor asks him to call him real quick. Tell him what's going on. Okay. Okay. What do you want me to tell him? I want you to tell him whatever you want to tell him. I mean, I the truth. I'll tell him the truth cuz that's what I do. That's your version of the truth cuz it's obviously not I'm not making it up. It's obviously not the truth. You think I'm making up that we found this round and I don't know what you're doing. What I'm telling you is I'm not making this up. You and I both know. I'm not lying to you about anything. Everything I'm telling you is facts. Okay. I'm not trying to trick you into anything, Rick. I know you probably watched, you said you watched Dline, all these fancy shows. I'm not trying to trick you. I'm just giving you some of the evidence that we have against you. I'm telling you that that's not possible. Well, I can't I'm not making this up. I showed you. I can't make This is a legal document. Item 16. Any other evidence that that was identified as being cycled in the firearm of item 314? Item 314 is your gun. Item 16 is the round that we found out there on the the the ditch bank next to Liberty's foot. That round compared to your gun and I'm telling you that didn't happen that it's not I don't So you think I you think I've just typed this up? You think I'm You're saying it happened? I'm not denying you're saying that. What I'm telling you is there's no way my bullet was found near a murder scene. It didn't happen. And I showed you a picture and I can tell of a round, a Winchester 40 caliber round. Right. I've got nothing to work. Any other evidence that you have is obviously not going to point at me. I mean, it is okay. The expert witnesses, the witnesses, all of it. I don't believe that. Go ahead and call the prosecutor. I'm just I'm just stumped here on why what you think I I made this up. What What do you want me to tell you? I want you to tell you how how how do you think I made this up? Do you think I just typed this up? This is an official document. I'm not I never said you made it up. I never said you made it up. I can't lie to you and say, "Hey, I have an official document right here saying that this exam was done on this round that we found at the scene. I can't make any of that up. That's what you're telling me." Well, no. I've not once said that you're lying. I've not once said that you're making that up. You're just saying what I'm telling you is that there's no way that a bullet from my gun ended up anywhere near a murder scene. It just didn't happen. And that's all I can tell you. I can't tell you any more than that. And all I can tell you is we found this round back in 2017. Okay. Collected it. Have compared other guns to it. Other guns have not matched. We've had it for over five and a half years. Right. We get information. you're on the trail, we want to talk to you and say, "Hey, what's going on? Who' you see? What' you do?" You kind of cooperate, but then we say, "Hey, we're looking for this and that. Would you let us look?" Nope. Get a search warrant. We did. We got a search warrant and we found this gun in your house that you bought in 2001 that the extraction marks, which is is the analogy I got from the lab is it's compared to a fingerprint. It's unlike anybody else's. Okay? these extraction marks. If I if they got my Sig 40, if I had a Sig 40, I have a 45 and a 9, but if I had a 40, it wouldn't match to my gun. And we've had multiple 40 caliber guns down there testing on other people that cooperated with us, okay? And it doesn't match to their gun. So that's why I'm telling you why we're here. One reason why we're here today is because your gun matches to this round that was found out there. I can't make that up. I'm not lying to you, Rick. I can't. That's That's unethical. I can't go to It's obviously what you think. I What I'm telling you is it's not It's not what I think. It's what the what the evidence is telling me. If I just thought, "Oh, I'm I'm going to make this story up. Oh, somebody was out there and jacked around out of their gun." I can't I can't make that up without the evidence that indicates it. Did Did they say anything to you about this round and about your gun the day they talked to you a couple weeks ago? No. No, because we didn't know. Okay. And then we collected all the evidence that we thought would match to the evidence that we have and run the test on it. And the test says, and what I'm telling you is, and I guess you can't deny this. What I'm telling you, I know what you're telling me. You're telling me that your gun in that round was nowhere near and I'm telling you that the evidence indicates it is right. We're on the same sheet. That's what you're telling me? Yes. And that's what you're telling me? No. What are you telling me? I'm telling you that there's no way in hell that my gun and rounds out there. Go ahead. Say it. Sorry. I won't interrupt you. I'm not saying anything because you know it's a lie. I I [clears throat] can't make this up. That's what I'm saying. You and I both know I can't make this up. I can't. This is a certified official document. I can't just type this [ __ ] up and say, "Oh, look at me. I'm lying to you, Rick. I'm trying to trick you into confessing to something you didn't do." That's [ __ ] You and I both know I can't do that. Okay. So, tell me. You tell me. Tell me. I think you were involved in this double homicide. That's what I'm telling you. Because of the facts of I I get that you think that. And I'm telling you I wasn't. Okay. And and if that's all it was, your word against my word, I would be like, "Okay, Rick, we'll see you later." But I got all this evidence that we can present to a jury of your peers that is going to say, "Lick did this." He won't talk to us though, so we don't know what he is. He's just some crazy monster that chases around teenage girls and wants to torture them and do whatever. That's what they're going to say. And now your wife and your daughter and your friends and your family have to live with that. Exactly. They already have to. You've already done the damage. I didn't do the damage. You certainly did. And everybody else around from my gun isn't down there. I can't explain to you something that I don't understand. Okay. I wish you could. I wish somebody could. I certainly wish I could. Well, sit tight. I'm going to find out what your wife's been telling the other detective and Okay. I can bring her in here, too. Let her tell you. Maybe she can convince you to tell the truth. Your wife wants to come in and talk to you. So, she's going to come talk to you for a minute. Okay. Anything else? You need a smoke break. Smoke. You want to step out back and smoke before you talk to your wife? If you'll let me, I will. But you have you have a cigarette? They're in my jacket. Where's your jacket? As soon as she has it. Okay. Is there a restroom I can use? Restroom? Great. Smoke break. Anything else? I'll see if she wants to come and talk to you. Any nothing else? Water? Good. You need anything else to drink? I'm just over this. I know. Okay. I want to get over it, too. I have a job to do. I'm trying to figure [ __ ] out. Get me again. She wants to talk to you. Okay. She's calming down a little bit, but Okay. We uh we basically told her about the same evidence that we have that we told you about and uh she's wants to talk to you. She's a little She's probably terrified. She is. So, she's drinking water and calming down a little bit. Um, like I told her, she's she's you you mentioned it earlier, you're worried about what people are going to think and all this. I get that. I don't think you're a bad person. Neither does she. What kind of good person kills two people? People make bad decisions all the time. I don't know what happened. You know, for all I know, maybe they did something. What makes two of us? Well, you have some explaining to do, though. I I don't think you can explain why. And other than you think I'm making it up, but good people make bad decisions all the time. Good people get backed in into a corner all the time. And I don't know what they did. Maybe I have I have a hard time believing they did something to I don't think anybody could do something to deserve to be killed over. You know, if somebody gets angry and their medication isn't right or whatever, I'm on medication and my medication isn't right, maybe I don't make the best decisions. You know, people that are drinking and doing drugs. Not saying you do, but when people drink and do drugs or the medication's off, maybe they make bad decisions. Good people do it all the time, but good people get out in front of it and tell the truth and try to help, put an end to it. and she believes that she she doesn't think we're making any of this up. You have to wonder when that grainy video first aired, did something inside her just click? Maybe she saw the walk, the posture, the clothes, and deep down she knew. People close to you notice things no one else can. It's possible she buried the suspicion, convincing herself it couldn't be true until it was. She thinks you're a good person. I think you're a good person. I just think something went wrong. I don't know why or what happened, but only one person can tell me, and that's you. I I can't tell you something that I don't know. You don't? And I don't know how to make that any clearer. You don't want to remember? Oh my [clears throat] god. I didn't do anything. I didn't murder two little girls. I didn't help somebody murder two little girls. I wasn't involved in would you say scheming or whatever. I I wasn't involved with these two girls in any way, shape, or form. Never even seen them before. Well, I'm allowed to talk to you a little bit. Okay. You guys can try to sort this out and let me know whatever I can do to help if you need more water or anything. Okay. Need another smoke break. Hey, baby. It's all right, babe. It's going to be all right. They're trying to tell me that you actually believe that I did it. And I just can't believe that. Trying to figure out why there's a bullet out there, dude. I know. You think I'm not? And that's what I told him. But I can't explain something I don't understand. I tried to explain to him that there's no way that a bullet from my gun was at a murder scene because it didn't happen. I didn't even have my gun that day I went out. You know me. You know this isn't something I could do. And I know that you know that. You don't have to tell me that. I know. It's so eerie how he keeps saying the same things to her. Like if he repeats it enough, it'll become true. That's a classic manipulation tactic. Flood someone with words to drown out their gut instincts. But here's the creepy part. What if this is also his weird twisted way of asking for help? Maybe not consciously, but as a cornered, scared man. They freely think I did this. And they want me to believe that. I know, you know, I didn't do this. I guess that's what I'm saying. I I don't know what they're trying to do here, but I'm not going to say something that's not true. And I'm I can't explain something that I don't understand. The only way for me to un to explain it is that I don't know because I'm saying it's not possible. There's no way that a bullet from my gun ended up at a murder scene. I didn't murder anybody. I didn't help somebody murder anybody. You know, I'm not even I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you. [clears throat] I know you know me. I know you know that I didn't do this had anything to do with it. They talked about scheming or something. Yeah. I don't I don't know how how did how did a bullet from your gun get out there? I don't know. Huh? Cuz they said it came from our gun. I know. That's what they're they believe you me. That's what they're telling me. But how did it get there? I don't know. They said there was one in your box above your dresser to match it. They showed me that picture, too. I I can't explain it. And I don't I can't either. They keep asking me and I don't know how to answer that. People forget, but the families of criminals serve their own life sentences. She's now part of the story whether she asked for it or not. For me to do I understand. Me either. And that's what I'm trying to tell. [clears throat] You want to keep asking me and I just keep telling you. I can't explain it. I don't know how to explain something that isn't possible. [snorts] But I know this is what I do know. I know that no bullet from my gun was connected with a murder in any way, shape, or form. And there's no way a bullet from my gun would have been near Abby and Libbyy's murder or or anything else because I never even seen those girls, period. And [snorts] I didn't even have my gun that day. So [sighs and gasps] that's what I'm trying to say. I don't know how to make that any clear. I don't know how to make that any clear. I don't know how to make somebody understand. I get what he's saying. I I don't have a way to explain it. And they're like, "There's a witness that said it was you out there, dear. I I don't know." And I'm like, "How did they know it was you?" So they said they showed her a picture and I'm like, "Of course you were out there." If they seen me out there, they seen me out there, dear. And I told them, "Were you on the bridge?" I told them I was on the bridge. I went out to the first trestle. Oh, okay. That first thing. I remember you telling me that. He told me or so. I told him we were on it, but I didn't. He doesn't. Hun, you're not in any trouble. You didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. until I'm right. Huh? [snorts] I didn't know you were on it. I'm sorry. Well, don't worry about it. I Huh. You told me you were. Huh? You told me you weren't. So, I just No, I told you that I walked. Okay. [snorts] I love you, baby. [snorts] I don't know what they're trying to do, but I know that that's not what I told you. I love you. I just This is I [snorts] not going to get away with this. [snorts] This is exactly what I would never want for you. And there's nothing I can do about it. I'm not going to say I did something I didn't do. I'm not. Yeah. And I know you know me. And I know you know that I would never do this. He's planting a thought in her mind by making her responsible for believing it. It's like verbal hypnosis. Say it enough and maybe she'll start believing it, too. This is classic coercive control. By framing the statement this way, he forces her to either agree or betray him. It's psychological boxing in. All I can say, hun, is you know me. I know and I know you know me and I know you and what they're doing to you right now I'm not okay with this at all and they know it but they're going to do what they're going to do. I'm just sorry you're having to hurt. I'm sorry I'm having to go through it. I mean, how it's like I told them, the damage is already done. You've already talked to people I work with. You talk to neighbors of mine. And I care about what people think. You know, I care about what people think. I know. Hell, I have enough trouble not trying to believe that people think. Half the time I just think they think what I'm thinking. You know what I'm talking about. I'm always worried about what Jory thinks or and they're trying to, you know, talk about my anxiety and depression and [ __ ] And you know, I've tried to explain to them it's been going on for 7 8 years. It [sighs] hell, I've had it my whole life. They want me to tell them that I did it. And I'm not going to. I'm not going to admit to something that I didn't do. How stupid is that? I don't care what they do to me. I'm not going to admit to doing something I had nothing to do with. And I I'm not going to try to explain something I can't explain because I don't know. You tell me because I don't know. I just know that I never even carried the gun unless we were going mushroom hunting, tromping through the woods or fishing along the river. That's the only time I even carried it for the most part. I never even would have hell I haven't carried my gun in I don't even remember a time when I used to carry it. I mean other than going fishing like if we were going night fishing. But how did the bullet get out there? Honey, I can't understand that. I told you I can't either. Huh? There's two explanations. One is the bullet didn't come from my gun. It did though, honey. The couple blessings on it. I get that. Then it didn't come from a murder scene. I don't know what else to say. I get that. I get what they're saying. What I'm telling you is if that bullet came from my gun, there's no way it was found with their investigation for the murders. There's no way. I can't explain something I have no answer for. While he denies it now, Richard confessed to the murders over 60 times during jailhouse calls to his wife and mother. During these confessions, he revealed some things that no one other than the killer would know. But he also made inconsistent statements about the nature of the crimes, including claims of sexual assault and shooting the victims, which were not supported by autopsy findings. I'm sorry, H. I'm trying to keep this together. Mhm. I don't I don't want to upset you anymore. All I want to do is be able to help you. I'm not saying anything, but if it gets to a point that it's too much, you just need to call the investigators and tell them to come and get me and bring me to you and I'll tell them whatever they want me to tell them cuz whatever it is they want me to say, I'll just say it. No. No. No. Will you just let everybody know how much I love? Of course I will. They already know. No, they don't. Yes, they do. Nobody loves me anymore. Stop. I just wanted to apologize to you. What's going on, I did it? No, I did it. What? I killed Abby. I killed Abby and Libby. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. No, you didn't, Darren. Yes, I did. Don't say I don't know why. No, you didn't. I just wanted to apologize to you. What's going on, sweetheart? I did it. No, I did it. What? I killed Abby. I killed Abby and Libby. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. No, you didn't, Darren. Yes, I did. Don't say. I don't know why. No, you didn't. I think I did. I wish I could say I didn't. I don't know. They want you to think that I done it. That's what this is all about. They they want you to come in here and and make me believe that you think I did it. And I know you don't. You know me too well. You know I'd never do something like this or even be involved with something like this. So, they're probably going to come and take you away from me and go at me again. So, just tell them you want an attorney and they'll have to let you leave. Don't worry about me. I'm trying to I don't know what they're doing. And here it comes. That moment when the detective just snaps. Yes, you do. There is no way that evidence is going to show that I did this. Right [ __ ] here, Rick. You got one piece of evidence. Multiple. I'm not showing you my whole [ __ ] hand here. I don't care. I'm showing you I'm done talking. And now you're going to drag your [ __ ] wife and your daughter through this because you're too [ __ ] bullheaded to get out in front of this and admit that you made a mistake. And whatever the [ __ ] happened out there, we'll never [ __ ] know because you're too big of a [ __ ] Go ahead. So tell you I did something. Tell me that I didn't do the truth, Rick. I don't want to hear. I've told you the truth and you don't want to hear it. The evidence tells me otherwise. The evidence clearly indicates you're involved in this. It [ __ ] does. It doesn't. I'm telling you that there is no way that a bullet from my gun was used in these murders. And I'm telling you that we had this [ __ ] round on February the 14th, 2017. It's been secured in a [ __ ] laboratory and we've tested other guns that people that we I understand what I want her to hear this. I understand what you're saying. What I'm telling you is I can't explain something I don't understand. Oh, the scientist explained it for you. The the lab analysis of analysts have have explained that for you. They're saying that this round without a doubt came from your gun. Then you told me taking it from somewhere else then because it's not possible. I did not take it from somewhere else. It was logged in. It was taken a photograph. You think we [ __ ] took the [ __ ] round and threw it down by a [ __ ] dead girl's foot? This ain't [ __ ] TV. This is realistic. I understand. We collected that [ __ ] item on February the 14th. We didn't take it from anywhere else but that [ __ ] scene. And we didn't take your gun from anywhere else. We took it from your [ __ ] house. I'm telling you, I can't explain something. And I'm telling you, the [ __ ] analyst explain it. You can't get past this. Can you please let my wife out? Absolutely. Come on, Kathy. I love you, baby. Can I kiss her? Yeah, kiss her. Do the right thing, Kathy. Tell him to do the right thing. She knows I will. Yeah. Do the right thing. You're going to put your family through this for no reason. You're going to pay for what you've done to my wife. What am I doing? You want to [ __ ] with me? [ __ ] with me. But you leave my wife out of this. [ __ ] Leave me out of it. No. You're involved in this. You're [ __ ] around, Rick. No, it's I can see you're getting pissed off. I understand. I was pissed off. Did you not see my wife? Did you not see these [ __ ] two girls dead? No. That's what happened. AND YOU GOT [ __ ] PISSED off at him. YOU [ __ ] DRAGGED HIM DOWN A [ __ ] HILL AND YOU [ __ ] KILLED. I DIDN'T. DON'T [ __ ] TELL ME YOU DIDN'T. I DIDN'T KILL ANYONE. Don't [ __ ] I'm for a reason, not because I'm TRYING TO KILL YOU. SOMEBODY. You're trying to tell me that I I'm not making this [ __ ] round [ __ ] up, Rick. It is what it is. I'm done talking. Arrest me. Happy to be [ __ ] happy to cuz I tried to [ __ ] help you and you wouldn't [ __ ] do it. Oh, you're helping me. I'm guilty and I know it and I'm going to [ __ ] prove it. Okay? And I'm not paying for any of this [ __ ] You're paying. This is on you. This ain't on me. It's [ __ ] on you, Rick. You had your [ __ ] opportunity. [ __ ] Richard was charged with felony murder for the killing of Abigail Williams while attempting to commit kidnapping. Felony murder for the killing of Liberty German while attempting to commit kidnapping. murder for knowingly killing Abby and murder for knowingly killing Libby. He was arrested after police searched his home in 2022. On December 20th, 2024, Richard Allen was sentenced to 130 years in prison for the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. The sentence comprises two consecutive 65-year terms. And that's where we end this video. If you like today's video, then drop a like. And if you want to support the channel even further, you can check out my Patreon link [music] in the description below. Thanks for watching. I'll see you in the next one.