did you see nolles take any aggressive action against anyone that day when officers approached him and went to talk to him and he turned away from them I believe could be constituted as an aggressive manner because you don't know what an individual is capable of doing when they turn away from you are you familiar with the protections that the First Amendment provides citizens related to speech I know they have the right to free speech if you're asking me the correct definition then I'd have to say no did you receive any trading related to constitutional rights of citizens yes sir that was part of the Academy training did you receive First Amendment training I believe so it was covered under the Constitution part of the academy do you remember any details from that first amendment training to be honest with you sir that was almost you know 17 years ago I don't know that I could give you an exact on that sir what about the Fourth Amendment no sir do you believe that citizens are legally required to assist law enforcement officers in investigations I don't know that I can give you an answer on that I believe that if an officer is investigating some sort of a crime and they're asking yourself or anyone else out in the public about that crime to or to gather enough information to find out if what crimes committed then they have an obligation and sir do you understand that the testimony you give today has the same force and effect as if you were before the judge and jury yes ma' would you please raise your right hand to be sworn you somly swear the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God yes ma'am I do Mr short could you tell me your full name for the record please yes sir it's Keith Wayne short and what did you review to prepare for your deposition here today um paperwork on the case and video footage could you be a little bit more specific what paperwork and what video um the video Ser or I mean the paperwork would be um the arrest report and then the other copy of paperwork was let me read it to you defendants response to plaintiff's request for production does that cover it those are the two pieces of paperwork those that's that's those are documents in the case yes sir uh but not all of them uh could you tell me what video you reviewed yes sir it would have been um the inar video for myself dial CL and did you review that video in its entirety I believe so yes sir when did you review that video that would have been yesterday how many times did you watch it uh twice if I remember correctly I don't think I watched them completely and to end the second time but you did the first time yes sir and where were you located when you reviewed that video my resid um do you need the city yes please okay in McLendon Chisum Texas how long have you been a police officer uh roughly 17 years sir have you arrested a lot of people during that time arrested people during that time but I couldn't tell you how many could you provide an estimate I don't believe I could provide you with an accurate one um in 17 years I would I mean I would probably say an average of one a year so at least 17 what police departments have you worked for work for the cattle Mills Police Department The Hunt County Sheriff's Office and Royce City police department and I'm currently employed by the sunny Police Department during your training before you became an active officer did you receive any trading related to constitutional rights of citizens yes sir that was part of the Academy training did you receive First Amendment training I believe so it was covered under the Constitution part of the academy do you remember any details from that first amendment training to be honest with you sir that was almost you know 17 years ago I don't know that I could give you an exact on that sir did you receive any second amendment training that again yes did you receive any second amendment training during that training before you became an officer uh yes sir there were multiple um amendments of the Constitution covered during the academy do you remember any specific details from the second am Amendment training not off the top of my head sir what about the Fourth Amendment no sir after you became an active officer have you received any training related to constitutional rights uh I've received so much training over my time as an officer I I can't tell you honest you know accurately if I have or I haven't have you received any training related to the First Amendment since you became an officer not to the best of my knowledge have you received any training related to the fourth amendment I don't know that I can give you an answer on that I don't remember do you believe that it's legal for you to arrest a person that's done nothing wrong objection form I can still answer that um can you restate the question one more time sir yes do you believe that it's legal for you to arrest a person that you do not suspect of a crime objection for I don't believe it's legal to arrest somebody if they've done nothing wrong no sir how do you know that sir how do you know that it's not legal to arrest a person that you don't supect of a crime if it's not a law or if it's not a law that's on the books that they that they have if there's there's a law the books and they violated it then yes they can be arrested for but if there's not a law on the books and they've done something I don't have a legal right to arrest them how do you know what laws are on the oh sorry please finish go ahead go ahead how do you know what laws are on the books objection sure go ahead and answer that yes okay can you restate that one more time Mr Alexander how do you know what laws are on the books um we have the book called the penal code the traffic code Transportation code there are books that have all the laws that are uh active in the state of Texas and then the laws that come up through the legislating process um each couple of years do you review those materials regularly I don't quite understand what you mean you've said that you know what laws are on the books because various government agencies release books of laws is that basically right objection four how do you know what's in those books if I need to go if I need to look at charges then I go in there and I open that book and I look to see what's in in there that may fit that particular situation um during the police academy you're also trained on the majority of that of the laws they can't train you on every single piece that they do training do you often arrest a person or participate in an arrest and then review the books of laws afterwards to figure out what they may have committed objection for I'm sorry no sir but do you regularly review the books I don't regularly open the book and read it if that's what you're asking or no are you familiar with the protections that the First Amendment provides citizens related to speech I know they have the right to free speech if you're asking me the corre cor definition then I'd have to say no are you aware or familiar with the protections that the First Amendment provides journalists objection for no sir I don't do you think that journalists have the right to make recordings objection form I can you restate that one more time do you think that journalists have the right to record Law Enforcement during regular law enforcement activities objection form okay um yes sir I do as long as they don't get in the way where it could pose a danger to themsel or others have you ever been been involved in an arrest where someone was arrested for something they said objection form am I to answer that yes okay um other than this this one that we're doing the deposition over sir not that I recall so this is the only arrest that you've ever been involved in where the person was arrested because of the content of their speech is that correct if you're talking about the content to their speech sir I I still stand my answer but it was my understanding on this whole thing it had to do with not only speech but with language on the sign so if you're meaning that for both then yes only one have you ever been involved in the arrest of somebody that was recording something with a camera objection for I do not remember so you can't remember any other time besides the arrest of Winston nolles where the person that was arrested was engaged in recording something with a camera at the time of the arrest correct I'm sorry did you get my answer Mr Alexander yes but miss Massie is more important than I do you think that people should be arrested for what they say that I believe I said no have you ever been involved in an arrest involving a protester not to the best of my sir what about homeless people not to the best of my so you can't remember any times that you've ever been involved in an arrest of homeless person or a protester is that right that is correct how did you find out that Winston nolles was on that corner that day um on my way back to the police department I heard the call for officers to report that way and that's how I heard about it or or dispatched to that area I guess is a better term to say and when you arrived did you hear Winston nolles say anything to any bystanders at the time I arrived no when after you arrived did you did you see the contents of Mr n's signs no sir I did not not until after um everything was done when you say every everything was done do you mean after he was arrested yes sir um I apologize can you say that one more time you kind of chopped up a little bit right there yes sir um after he was detained and placed in the back of Patrol vehicle it was shortly there after that I saw so before Winston Nolls was arrested did you see or hear him say anything to anyone no sir do you have any knowledge of any complaints that a member of the police department may have received related to Winston nolles other than the dispatch traffic that they were dispatched there no sir what did they say about noes on the dispatch I don't believe they specifically ident identified him it was and you're asking me to recall something from multiple years ago it was a call to that location for an individual with signs that had profanity on them if I remember correctly but you're asking me to recall something that I don't have the ability to see that dispatch log to say do you remember specifically what the dispatcher said was profane or allegedly profane no sir how would you describe n's demeanor that day when you arrived on the scene um not quite sure what you're asking me there did he seem hostile to you I with this so to answer your question on that he was never hostile towards me did you see him behave in a hostile manner toward anyone yes sir in but you're asking me for an opinion on what hostile is I may have a different opinion than than you on what hostile is um I did observe him not being cooperative if you will want to say that's hostile uh he was not being cooperative when officers approached him do you think that Mr nolles had an a legal obligation to be cooperative objection form great based on them investigating a report of what was going on I believe he had he had the legal obligation to answer questions yes sir do you believe that citizens are legally required to assist law enforcement officers in investigations objection for can you restate the question do you believe that the law says that Winston nolles had to cooperate with the officers objection form I don't know that I can give you an answer on that I believe that if an officer is investigating some sort of a crime and they're asking yourself or anyone else out in the public about that crime to or to gather enough information to find out if a crimes committed then they have an obligation to answer and do you think a person who does not cooperate is hostile objection for I don't know that I can answer that correctly um sir I think it depends on their demeanor at the time I'm just asking for your opinion that's all I they have the ability to yes or do do I think everyone no do you think so do you think that Winston null's lack of cooperation meant that he was hostile objection for I believe that he was hostile in a way of not answering the questions um in the video if I remember correctly when officer spoke to him he also turned his back to them um in a manner which to me said he was being uncooperative and was not going to be cooperative at that point do you think he deserved to be arrested for not being Cooperative objection form the ones that were doing the investigate I I apologize could I get you to repeat the end of that answer please it's kind of muffled talk about this one right now ma'am yes please okay don't have an answer for you Mr Alexander because I was not the arresting officer nor was the was I the officer that doing the investigation into that situation at that time so if you weren't the arresting officer and you weren't performing the investigation what was your role there I was a basically a backup officer for officer safety so could you tell me more about what that means it means I was there to ensure their safety and the safety of others they were at an intersection where Vehicles come through there when as a police off officer you can be on a call you don't know going to that call you may not have all the information of what's going on who the subject is who they may or may not know what they're capable of um so we try to back each other up for safety what do you think usually goes on a tripod dep depends on the type of tripod you're asking I'm asking you in your opinion what are most tripods used for objection four well sir I'm the tripods I'm used to seeing are ones that hold shop lights of some sort to to light the area up or to light up the work area and so where are shop lights usually used I'm sorry shop lights is that what you're asking me where are they most often used it could be outside in a construction area it could be inside a building under construction it could be multiple like multiple location do you have a lot of experience with shop lights um no sir what is your experience with shop lights objection phone other than using the one that I had when I was younger and doing work in my my own garage or at my own residence when was the last time you used a shop light it's been multiple years because I no longer own one with a tripod SLE is it more than 20 years no not that one between five and 10 years ago I think or well hold on probably around 10 years have you ever used a shop light outside yes sir have you ever used a shop light outside during the day not during the day no do you think that anybody would ever use a shop light outside during the day objection for I I don't know I I believe not but I I'm not I'm not everyone else are shop lights used to light Darkly lit areas objection for I believe so yes sir so would you think it's unreasonable to need a shop light outside during the day objection form yes sir could you repeat that please it blured a little bit yes sir do you ever take pictures with a camera yes sir do you have a phone with a camera feature yes yes sir I do how often do you take photos with your phone objection f um I don't know that I would say once a day but I've probably used it throughout the week so give you an accurate answer I don't I don't know I I use it throughout the week for different things do you take over 500 photos a year I don't believe you think it's safely over 200 don't think it's that much but I may be I may be off do you think it's over 100 that's probably pretty accurate yes sir do you have any experience with other kinds of cameras other than a cell phone well I'm kind of old so I've the old instatic cameras that you would mail in to get uh developed to all the way up to Canon A1 cameras and I have a little bit of experience with the newer 35 millimeter cameras the that hold the digital cards in them so I have taken pictures with various types of cameras yes Council I apologize to interrupt could we go off the Record just a moment yes I'm I'm okay with it recording stopped I'm sorry to interrupt but I'm just getting a little lot of feedback from the other microphone and I just don't want to miss anybody's testimony is it is it possible Mr Tulie for you to to mute or to do the setup we did last time just so that I don't I just want to make sure I hear everything correctly we switch computers and maybe that's the problem maybe I need to put the witness back on this one like we had this morning and let's see if that worked okay thank you those are kind of important I think what I said glasses are kind of important I think recording in progress back on the record at 1:28 p.m. did did you see any light excuse me did you see any light being emitted from the device on the tripod that day no sir but you thought it was a shop light I I believe it was a tripod for a shop light I wasn't completely sure what it was did you know that something was attached to the tripod all I saw was what looked like black plastic attached to the topper half top half of it and what does your cell phone look like does it look like black plastic with the otter box cover on it yes and if you saw a cell phone that was on a tripod recording would it look like what you saw that day I don't believe so sir but you just said that a cell phone looks like black plastic and if a cell phone is on a tripod you don't think it looks like what you saw that day what I'm explaining sir is what I saw attached to the upper half of that tripod I could not give you an accurate answer if I thought that was a cell phone all at what point did did you find out what was on that tripod um I'm sorry can you ask that again because I'm not quite sure what you're asking are you aware that the device on that tripod was a camera now no sir I was not not a are you aware now I am now yes sir when did you learn that it was a a camera I believe at the time that this this whole legal proceeding started which was over two years ago when you say legal proceeding do you mean when the plaintiff filed his lawsuit yes sir why did you move the tripod that day to move it out of my way in case I needed to go in to help the two officers why did you think you might need to help them again when it comes to backup or you know officer safety um I wanted the clearest point to get directly to them if the individual decided to become combative with the other officers did you think that there was an emergency I'm sorry can you can you ask that again did you think that there was an emergency not at that point in time but I'm not quite sure are you talking about at the point that I was standing there or when I moved the tripod when you moved the tripod yes sir because if I remember from looking at the video um to to refresh my memory that was at the point that Mr noes um I believe threw himself on the ground so I wasn't sure what was going to transpire at that point why didn't you step around the tripod there was if you look at the video the ground um the area there're standing water and mud I'm I don't want to get I don't want to slip in the mud so you felt that that was the only choice that you could make in that moment to have a direct path to them yes sir or to have a better path so I didn't trip over the tripod yes sir did you move closer to them after you moved the tripod yes sir did you help them with the arrest after you moved the tripod no sir why did you move closer to them after you moved the tripod because at the time Mr nolles had I don't know if I'm going to use the right words had throwing himself to the ground and at one point he started to either roll over or start flopping around um and that's why I moved in closer why were you standing so far away before he flopped to the ground because I'm watching everything going on around them for their safety just like I explained to you about being a backup officer for for safety do you think it was reasonable to move that tripod yes sir when you move the tripod did you see that this was a camera no sir did you look at what was on top of the tripod when I first walked up to it yes sir I did but when you moved it you did not correct did you see dial slap the signs yes sir I did can you describe the demeanor in which he SL those signs for I don't Mr Alexander I don't know what you mean by the demeanor um can you restate what you're what you're asking for in that question did he slap them hard objection I can't my definition of hard yours may be completely different um the way I can answer that question for you is I believe he used enough Force to get the signs out of Mr n's hands now whether that's hard softer or in between I I don't have an answer for you do you think that nolles held the signs in a threatening manner I don't recall why do you think NS was arrested sir I wasn't the arresting officer I was not I was there for safety for them I I didn't have any information on the reason why they were arrested at what point did you leave the scene um shortly after they had uh detained him and put him in the back of the one patrol car have you reviewed the pleadings in this case I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by pleadings the answer to the lawsuit I don't recall if I've read them sir I I know I get I get information but I to give you an accurate answer I do not recall do you think that it's important that the facts present in the documents used to defend you are accurate yes sir after nlls was arrested what happened to the tripod I do not know sir are you talking about what happened to it as far as where it went or I'm saying immediately after nolles was placed into the police car what did the officers do with the tripod objection I know at one point I collapsed the tripod but other than that it was handed back over to officer dial or at the time Sergeant B um I don't know after that when you collapsed it were you gentle with it objection form I collapsed it like I would a normal tripod it as far as if if I'm using the wrong word when it's expanded out how you can raise or lower them I collapsed it back down to the smallest size that you can make it I don't know if I was hard or gentle at that point did you have to touch the top of the tripod to do that I don't recall how I I don't think I had to reach the top of it to do it but are you aware that tripods also extend upward I believe so yes sir and so to collapse one you would probably need to hold the top of it and push it down to decrease the size of the tripod is that your understanding of tripods I think you could do it either way sir when you collapse the tripod did you look at what was on top of it I don't I don't recall did you let the tripod fall to the ground after you collapsed it no sir did Officer dial immediately take the tripod from you I believe I handed it to him yes sir did he let it fall to the ground I don't recall where did Officer di put the tripod pH I I don't know sir was the tripod placed into evidence I I don't know because after I left the scene I don't know what they did with all that stuff do you know of the existence of a recording that would show what happened to that tripod after you handed it to officer dial form I'm sorry can you ask that again sir do you know of any recordings that might show where officer dial took that tripod I'm not aware of any sir or I have not seen any if they exist did you see utto excuse me Mr nolles again after you arrested him that day or participated I'm sorry say that again Mr Alexander did you see Mr nolles again after he was arrested that day um yes sir I did sometime after that date yeser and could you describe that incident to me he was positioned across the street from the side entrance to the PD um holding a sign um as I pulled along that road to turn to pull into the the backside of the PD um he was standing there and and made an offensive gesture towards me what was that offensive gesture as you and I would know flipped me off gave me the finger why do you call that an offensive gesture because most people that I know or or I don't know how to explain it most people I know would find that offensive was anyone else around when he made that gesture at the time I don't know that I saw anybody else away but I was driving my patrol car there was no opposing traffic coming towards me I couldn't tell you if there was anybody behind me or if there was anybody else on the sidewalk or anywhere near that side of that building that would have witnessed it no do you know what time of day that was it was during the day I couldn't accurately give you a time why didn't you arrest him for that I just I was trying to get to the PD to take care of something so I just pulled in first off even though I may not like it if you understand law enforcement we don't have the right to be offended so him flipping me off does not give me that authority to arrest him so I just ignored him pulled in and walked into the PV if he had shouted a bad word would you have arrested him what what you're asking me objection pH is that with are you speaking that he's talking to me directly or without anybody else around or with other people around with other people around if those people are offended then that possibility could exist yes how would you know they were offended they would have to make a complaint they would have to let me know they're offended by his language or his gesture so you're saying that if he had shouted a bad word and somebody told you that they were offended you would have arrested him objection for what I just said was that the possibility exists yes if they're willing to get me a riffin giving excuse me if they're willing to give me a written affidavit that they were offended by his gestures or language yes sir that is a breach of the Peace So if somebody called in a complaint and said that they saw that middle finger and they were offended and you know he did the middle finger because you saw it you would arrest him you just asked me if somebody called I I would believe I would do a little bit more due diligence into who it is where they were how they saw it before I make a determination on that and if you didn't have that diligence would you hesitate to arrest I couldn't give you an answer on that one I'm not I don't just arrest somebody to arrest them I I make sure that I look at all the facts before I do do you think that a reasonable officer would do diligence on the complaint that they receive from a caller objection for I would hope they do but I'm not the other officer I I can only speak for what I would be able to do or what I capable of doing but you would do diligence before arresting a person I yesterday and could you tell me what would that diligence involve objection well sir in the scenario you just gave me I just explained that I would I would ask questions to find out where were you how did you see it you know there's there's multiple ways it just depends on it could be different questions for different scenarios or different situations so if he were holding up the finger and all you knew is that somebody had called in a complaint therefore you didn't have the ability to do follow-up questions would you arrest objection form no sir before you move the tripod did you consider confirming what was on it can you explain to me what you mean by confirming what's on it sir do you think that it would have been reasonable to check what was on the tripad tripod before you moved it no sir did you think about checking to be sure what it was before you moved it no sir do you think that it would be unreasonable to check to confirm what it was before you moved it objection for are you asking for my personal opinion if I feel that way yes um it never hurts to check but in this case I did not do you think that it was reasonable not to check objection form I don't have an answer for you on that sir objection non responsive do you think it was reasonable not to check the camera before you move excuse me not to check what was on the tripod before you moved it objection form sir when I when I stepped up next to it I took a quick glance at it um past that my my position was for officer safety taking a quick glance at it my focus was now on what was going on in front of me which was them not the tripod do you think that police officers have a duty to protect citizens from other officers violating their constitutional rights yes sir if you had known that another officer on the scene that day was violating n's constitutional rights would you have helped nolles objection for sir if I saw an officer violating somebody's rights I would do what is right as a law enforcement officer and I would do what I was sworn to do which was to protect and uphold which means yes in answer your question did you see dial slap n signs you asked me that before yes sir I did how did you feel about that slot objection four I didn't have an opinion one way or the other on that sir I don't quite understand what you're asking I'm asking you if you thought it was appropriate for dial to slap those signs in that moment [Music] objection I did not hear the conversation between them at that point so I don't feel it was unreasonable for him to slap the signs out of his hand were you watching nolles the whole time you were on the scene yes sir did you see nolles take any aggressive action against anyone that day you're asking me for an opinion when you're question about an aggressive stance um we could both have a different opinion of what an aggressive stances what I'm asking about your opinion objection in what I saw when officers approached him and went to talk to him and he turned away from them I believe could be constituted as an aggressive manner because you don't know what an individual is capable of doing when they turn away from you do you think that turning away from the officers justifies dial slapping those signs I I don't have an answer for you did you consider the possibility that the object on top of the tripod was a camera it never crossed my mind no sir did you ever think about what it might be objection no sir I did not do you think that an officer provi providing backup during an arrest has a duty to intervene if the arresting officer is executing that arrest without Reasonable Suspicion of a crime can you restate it one more time sir I think I understand what you want but I'm or what you're asking but I'd like you to restate it just to make sure if you're performing backup during an arrest do you think that officers generally have an obligation to assist the person being arrested if they're being arrested without Reasonable Suspicion of a crime objection for I believe so yes sir you think it's reasonable for an officer that's providing backup to intervene in that situation yes sir um I believe if if they recognize that it's something wrong like you're stating then yes they should the