Josh you have to give me your identification when I ask for it as a police officer okay the state gives you that identification for that reason okay yes you have to pay for it at the courthouse it's your identification that's the reason you have it so the police can have it if they ask for it that's one of the main reasons this is America is this how you treat this America you have the right to do a lot of things but you still have to give me your identification no matter what either give it to me there welcome to Kentucky guys stay tuned to the end this incident happened way back in 2018 but I spoke to Tony Grogan today December 10th 2024 and he told me about how this incident has changed his life and the way he does his job the guy that I spoke to on the phone doesn't even seem like the same person we saw in this video and he gives a very interesting perspective about how police are trained to violate your rights hello how you doing I'm all right my name's Tony Grogen I'm police police department have any identification um I any identification I do but why do I have to give that it's a law in Kentucky you don't have any ID on you uh I do got ID on me but see you have to articulate suspicion or have suspicion that I've committed a crime or I'm about to commit a crime uh my name is Josh Josh how are you Josh do you have any idea on you um I I prefer not to give it Josh you have to give me your identification when I ask for it as a police officer okay the state gives you that identification for that reason okay yes you have to pay for it at the courthouse it's your identification that's the reason you have it so the police can have it if they ask for it that's one of the main reasons [Music] it's do you live here no I do not I know I don't know you cuz this is a small community and I've never seen you before yeah I'm from small communities myself you mind giving your identification uh what would happen if I don't well I'm going to have to put you in the back of the that car and detain you until I can get more information on you and I don't want to use force or anything like that on you that's not my goal here my goal is to find out who you are and why you're here what do you want I I just wanted to take some pictures of video of the public areas now she came out with with a little bit of an attitude you know I can I can tell you what I'm doing I'm not doing anything illegal I'm not doing anything wrong what I'm doing is actually give your identification before we keep going on I'm going to operate with you as much as I can but you have to give me your identification when I asked for it I've asked four times okay okay am I give your identification am I being detained not yet you need to give me that identification okay and if I'm not being detained I'm going to go on about my date you either give me the identification or or I am going to put you in the back of that car you understand that identification is is there anybody else hire that you can come get to come out of [Music] here identification please look you have any weapons on you is that what this is is there you have weapons on you no I don't no I don't I don't got no I'm doing you know what I'm doing what what am I doing I'm doing a Terry pet down for you and my protection bottom line is I don't know what you got on you okay cuz I don't know you and you don't know me right right okay what's going on man is this what is this is that your wallet is that ID in there yes that is you can't there's there's people up here you know it's a public place okay okay all right and you can be in public places okay but I don't understand why you're got a camera one foot like from my face and I don't what is this that's uh my other phone okay give me your identification I don't suppose you can show me the statue you know I tried finding what I could before I come up here now I can give you I can I can give you my name I want your identification because if I don't get it I can't allow you to stay here I don't want you to stay here anyway but what I want doesn't matter that's not what's important what's important is that you cooperate and give me your identification as a citizen are you a citizen yes I am a citizen okay then you have to abide by the laws the laws say that you have to give me your identification I don't have to explain up front why okay okay if if you could please for me don't you well you're kind of in my personal space well do you know why because you're not giving me your identification well the thing is I'm not familiar with your laws I'm familiar with Tennessee laws that's okay this is America is this how you treat tourist America you have the right to do a lot of things okay and the freedoms that are granted to you are actually you know all the people in America have them you know but you still have to give them your identification no matter what welcome to Kentucky don't back in front of traffic either I am responsible somewhat you know I don't want you getting hit while we're having a back and forth conversation you're not even you don't live here why are you here there's a lot of security issues when you're filming government buildings too I'd like you to know that all right that is an issue this is a government building okay okay so and and I have and I have a right to videotape photograph in publicly accessible areas where I have a legal right to be I don't know if I don't know who you are so I don't know if you have a legal right to be here or not cuz I don't know if you have warrants on you I don't know anything about you I don't know how old you are what what suspicion do you have or articulated either give it to me okay come on you won't give it to me you're being uncooperative stop whoa all you want video in City Hall and stuff it's okay he just likes the video I don't know what he's doing for sure hey you want you want this B yes sir I do all right it might be better than your phone okay uh now where can I go to to file a complaint a complaint yes police yes I'm the chief of police over in the only other place would be City Hall City Hall yeah what kind of complainer you want to file uh right now legal detainment well you've only been here 10 minutes you know with me maybe 12 um I have a reasonable right under your constitutional rights to detain you for a reasonable amount of time I think 12 minutes to see why you're maybe 15 minutes to see why you're videoing a government building and everything is very reasonable okay you're free to go all right uh what's your name batch number my name is Tony Grogan I'm the chief of police at hi Police Department my badge number is 501 501 uh your name badge number my name is Deputy Gary fure 3808 3808 okay uh you I might give you nothing what have you given me have you told us anything you explain why you're out here what what's your what's your policy you hav't explain why you're out here have you he's a different agency than where do you live at well I'm from Tennessee I'll least give you that why you at sikman City Hall asking them things and filming them stuff is there a reason do you have some kind of business with the city of Hickman yeah mainly what I'm doing right here what is that take picture in the video you know I'm just a tourist in your city you're just a tourist in your filing city hall and then you have a run in with the police wonder why that is all I'm asking is for your name most tourists that come to the city of Hickman are on the bluff fing the Bluff filming the courthouse it's historic okay our Woods yes I'm the sheriff here in Fon County okay so you're Fon County Sheriff that's right okay all right well do you not have a policy about U your deput we have a policy that people we talk to that's causing a disturbance better tell us why they're doing it okay well either way U I got you on film I got your name good I'm going I'm going to go this incident occurred in 2018 Sheriff Woods passed away from a massive stroke just months after this incident Chief Grogan remained Chief until 2022 when he was demoted to patrolman shortly after that he left and went to the Fulton County Sheriff's Department where I caught up with him 6 years later and he told us how this incident has affected him I left a message for him and when he called me back I was unprepared and it took me a minute to get the cameras going hello hello my name's Tony Grogan um I'm calling because we're we're doing an update on the incident that happened with you out there 6 years ago where you detained someone for refusing to give ID have you learned anything since then or or are you still doing the same things no I don't um me personally um well I I did learn some things from that yeah okay that incident yes I did um uh basically what I've I've researched quite a bit on it and it and it affected me quite a bit you know um over time you know but they the reality of that situation you know I I treated him pretty good ultimately you know I even bought his lunch he came back and I showed him around the fire department and stuff like two weeks later and I even bought his lunch and everything for him and we talked and all but um yeah I don't I don't force IDs anymore you know um we were taught that you know when I became an officer 27 years ago you know and it just carried forward basically sometimes you carry things with you that you're taught you know um and that's what that incident was mostly it was just updating training you know okay and and you know trying to trying to be more fluid is what I had to basically my changes were to try to change with the times as you know what's accepted and what's not um with individuals um and you know when you when you're in something a very long time you get set in the way you do things and I real I had to realize I was part of the problem you know is that I was still policing like I did 15 years earlier you know and in some ways not in all ways but in some ways so and I'm I'm I'm not the norm when it comes to police officers as far as being willing to change I'm very willing to change you know and I it did change me um in that you know I I do not force IDs if you're not driving anymore you know now if you're driving it's different you know because you you have to give your license if you're driving but if you're just walking down the street or something like that no you know and I don't know I haven't heard anything from him you know since then since two weeks after or so two or three weeks after but um like I said it it was a learning experience for me and I had to revamp a few things to realize you know hey you know you you you know you have to be willing to change as as people change you know what's accepted and what's not you know but that's how it's changed me if you that was your question right okay yeah I do appreciate it um so you you're saying that uh the changes are based on what's kind of socially acceptable is that right well um to me yes um uh what because you can only police people as much as they'll let you no matter what um and over time things change what's accepted and what's not you know um it's always a balance between that security and and rights you know yeah but I don't know I mean I think there was a standard set at some point for you know specifically when you can ID somebody and when you can't and I don't think it was uh based on on uh I I don't think that standard was based on uh public Norms or social norms so much as uh some kind of old documents uh might have heard of it uh the Constitution um which was based on an even older document you might have heard of have you ever heard of the Magna Carta yeah I've heard of them both yeah yeah so I mean that's interesting though that your uh perspective on it um well it's just from from rubber meets the road of it you know that's where a lot of police use their judgment like that you know yeah I like I like what you said though about how you know you can only police people as much as they're willing to be policed I I couldn't agree more I think that's incredibly accurate I agree I mean I I believe that very strongly you know and I'm not I'm not an aggressive police officer you know I I I do my job you know do what I'm supposed to do most of the time I do the best in every situation and that's that's what I try to do and I'm I and I do change I just you know that was a bad situation you know and I've had many good situations you know where things went much better you know and I wish that would have went better I wish it would have went different I don't know did did uh did they teach you what reasonable articulable suspicion is after that yeah um well I tght myself you know I had to I I researched the incident and how it all happened you know and what what went wrong because I wanted to grow from it because it you know it affected me you know when you say it affected you how how did it affect you was there was there a lot of backlash from the community or no what do you mean what do you mean when you say it affected you well it affected me because I felt like you know I was wrong you know and I don't I don't ever want to be in that situation where I've made a situation worse you know so it affected me mentally a lot you know now I I did you know um I only reason I don't I don't work there anymore but it's not because of any of that that was you know quite a bit before it um uh I don't know personally I think I was affected because I let it B me to a deep level you know um because I I was affected by it in in my mind you know because I thought about it all the time and I don't like doing something incorrect you know and that's how it affected me I wasn't financially hurt or anything like that you know and anything you know but I that's not what's important to me or I wouldn't be doing this because I don't I don't I don't make much money doing this um it's about you know the public trust and trying to do the best job you can you know that's how it affected me okay you know yeah I mean I I find it interesting U because I I I know that is how policing worked for decades a police officer asked you for ID it doesn't matter what the situation is right you you give ID and so why um after Decades of doing the same thing did this one particular incident help you realize that there may have been something wrong with with what you had been taught yeah um I think some of it was this the stance of like because I asked I asked deeper questions about it number one I I tried to investigate what I did in this situation and and it you know it draw attention to to that issue that I had never had drawn to that issue before you know and that a lot of times Force change is really the best change because if you're willing if you're willing to look at something hard enough you can see what you're doing you know and and then you can correct it you know but if you're not willing and a lot of officers would never be willing to say anything you know like I don't feel like that was right or whatever you know and I felt bad about it you know um that was a lot of it how how I perceived it you know because honestly I had never been a villain in any situation you know like that I I was there to help people you know and I was there to help people in that situation but it got twisted up you know and I wasn't in control of it it didn't feel like you know the all of the the the it wasn't local rhetoric or anything like that you know but there was a a huge outpour of you know I don't know just almost like there was no looking away from something that that had happened that that I felt like I caused you know okay that's just how I received it all you know so so it it sounds like because of the fact that it was recorded and published on the internet that was what caused it to um be looked at a little more and and is that what caus me looked at by me more okay yes so you think it was a so do you think then overall maybe it was a even though it wasn't your best day it wasn't your proudest moment and it's all over the Internet do you think that that the fact that that happened has made you grow possibly oh yeah it's helped it it helped me um so it's not necessarily overall a bad thing that this happening no but it was a low point for my in my career it's been one of the low points there was just a few low points but that was one of them you know but what I mean by that is you have to you have to almost bottom out sometimes to grow in a situation to allow yourself to otherwise you'll keep doing something if it's successful and that's the way it works you know you don't it's Force change I mean and that's very effective you know I'm not glad it happened but I'm glad that I got to grow from it you know you know but a lot of people would have shut down on that you know and not not been willing to see that they were part of the issue part of the problem you know um and that's not just police that's an anything you know but you have to you have to be willing to accept that you know to ever change anything you have to be willing to accept that you're looking at it wrong you're you're you're acting from the way it was perceived by you in the past you know and and realize that that's not what's acceptable you know I don't know it it helped me change you know I probably opened up the door for growth some for me in that way because I you know I was kind of closed off you know and lot of times when you work somewhere small that's isolated it gets that way you know you just and hman is very isolated yeah um um I mean it really is and it opened it up you know to me a lot more it made it was like kman was a lot bigger because of that because I have to comply with you know what's what people's rights are no matter what um and I wanted to do that anyway but you don't know sometimes what's your path is act the actuality of what you're doing you know you don't real ize it until it's brought to your attention you wish that they had trained you to a point where you you uh genuinely comprehended when the rubber reachs the meets the mo sorry when when the rubber where rubber meets the road on how to what people's rights really are because I mean we hear people talk about it all the time right you have the the Fourth Amendment right to be secure in your person and papers but it seems as if you know in reality in real life that's not necessarily trained and uh you feel like that would have helped you a lot if if that you had been given real constitutional training on how it how it plays out in in real life yeah but it's hard to it's hard for them to foresee what might happen you know now it would be nice if they had classes on that you know more more of that conceptual stuff of and we do a lot of skill training you know and and that's good you know except you know where you have the most problem is the conceptual of of do you perceive what this is you know and are you perceiving it correctly the way we want you to that's that's what's hard you know and I was young back then the only real training I ever had on it was probably Academy you know and I would have went in 1998 you know and Poli him was different um now I've been to training yearly every year you know but not on that subject you know so it seems like the only training out there for this is is the School of Hard Knocks when you go viral on the internet and that that that honestly man that that seems kind of unfair to me it seems like the employers are kind of setting police officers and deputies up um yeah yeah well they learn from others learn from you when when that happens and and you know that's why I appreciate your humility here because uh um I mean quite frankly you you sound like a much different person than what I saw in the video I saw frankly I saw an arrogant [ __ ] in the video and that's and that's not what I hear right now and and so I mean but I I appreciate your humility because there's probably 100,000 other cops that would have done it exactly the same way that you did and even though they'll sit there and judge you from behind their screen you you know and say oh he did it all right they would have done the same thing and luckily they get to learn from from your experience and hopefully not have to go through the same embarrassment that you did yeah yeah I hope I hope that they learn from it you know because it even even even though I didn't physically damage him or anything you know um I I you know I understand the damaging effect of it you know of the situation and what happened but that's only because I was willing to to really look at it to try to to try to grow from it because if you don't analyze what actually happened and be honest with yourself you're never going to grow you know and uh in the end you know it is good that it happened because you know it's h other situations have occurred since then you know and I don't I don't like to ride the line you know of Rights I I literally I step I step back a little from that anymore more than I because you're the most a lot of times you're the most effective doing an action if if you're almost infringing on the rights that's how that's how your your skills are the most effective and I don't like to I won't ride that anymore you know I don't do that and that's that's actually what they taught you to do is to infringe on people's rights right in train correctly to to they bump you right to it y you know right right against it so then as time goes by the line gets grayed a little bit because you don't you may not remember exactly but you remember close to what you're you're out there doing you know and and then that's that's how it happens I think I think people can get violated because the officer may be remembering something from 15 years ago you know and is that even close to what's acceptable you know without without continued education in that area it's hard which they're doing better in some ways now and they were I can tell you that that getting ID from someone in a situation like that was a always unlawful even when you did it for 15 years it was always unlawful and it and and this is why that's how I was trained right right and I understand that and that's why it's really come to the point where average everyday citizens have started going out and making such a fuss U because um like you said you've essentially been trained to violate people's rights the people have been trained to just accept it and and something had to be done and so some people see this this type of behavior that this young man was doing is obnoxious and ridiculous and I would even agree somewhat uh but at the same time um gosh we we did I think we needed to step back and and you know realize that no this was actually never okay it was never lawful and it never should have been accepted it shouldn't have been accepted and people sometimes are willing to accept things for security and to you know and you create that standard with it and then that standard becomes the you know it's the new way of doing it and people didn't even realize that it happened yep the new Norm doing it yeah just without without that without those kind of checks you know and balances it it never gets corrected I'd still be doing it if it didn't happen I'm sure of it because you know I had no no reason to change I didn't realize I was doing it wrong before the incident you know well man I I can't tell you how much I appreciate this this conversation I really do I publish videos all the time about government on every level not just cops you know Senators politicians judges uh who just blatantly violate people's rights break the law and then I I usually called them and say hey do we realize that we did something wrong and and they double down and triple down and um and you know I if more people would just recognize hey man this we've been taught wrong and and we need to change some things um I it's a it's refreshing me I appreciate yeah well it it like I say it it deeply affected me now some people who don't care you know or who are arrogant [ __ ] would not let this bother them you know wouldn't have never let it about them but you know for me to be to come off that way I didn't I didn't like that you know that's not who I wanted to be you know and I think that I've changed some from that that from that incident I know I've changed I don't think I would handle things the way I do currently if that incident didn't occur in my life you know I think that you know it it it helped me in a lot of ways you know when I look back at it I haven't really ever thought about how much it changed me you know but it did I'm glad I got a hold of you too to see that you know you're not the same person that we saw in that video um because I was going to do an update on it and and I you know I did come in um with a preconceived notion that I was going to show the video tell people that it's six years old call you call the sheriff's department and find out that you guys don't give a crap and you're going to continue doing it the same um and that you've done it the same ever since then that's what I thought the story was going to be I really did yeah and and so man I I I can't tell you how happy I am to hear that there was a positive outcome from this and yeah and I think that the rest of the world will too so I just you know I don't know I want to do things the best I can you know and if you're not then you need to change you know that's really what it gets down to you know and you you have to look at it through a fair gauge if you will of of of what you're doing and a lot of people will they refuse to look at it with Clarity like that you know they won't look at it it can be tough too though I mean when you've been taught something for 10 years 20 years 30 years that's truth to you right I mean it is it is Gospel truth and when somebody comes along out of the blue some stranger at that yeah and says hey dummy you've been doing it wrong I mean it can be tough um so I mean I'm not trying to make excuses but but I am trying to say that you know I think that if we all look at it objectively um you know your your screw up happen to get caught on camera and published to the world but we all screw up every day and and there's a lot of us who who fail to recognize it and um so your your ability to recognize it and be humble is uh it's it's it's a beautiful thing so well thank you I I you know I just I'm just one guy trying to do the best he can you got my respect sir I I called to cuss you out and tell you what a piece of [ __ ] you are and uh you turned me right around man you you've got my respect like I said I wish things would have went different but I'm I'm glad that I learned from it you know that things happen for a reason you know and if if if I if that situation stopped me from doing it then it was worth it you know because others would have endured it too you know and there's no need in that you know there there just not you know and if you can if you can find it you know in yourself to change like that then that's that's the real strength of it you know is your your willingness to accept whatever you did wrong you know and say you know you got to look at it and look at it hard and judge yourself you know because what other people think doesn't really matter that much to me but but the way I view myself matters a lot as far as you know did I do this right did I do this wrong and if I did it wrong I need to you know I take my hits and I took them you know I took some hits there's no question about it but but and I would say the entirety of it it took time for me to to Really process everything were you in denial at first that that you had done something wrong yeah I was I I think that's natural too you know like I like I said earlier you know you're trained for decades to do something and then some joeo off the street says you're wrong well yeah I mean you know I I wasn't I know I was in Deni about until it probably took me probably two months to come out of that after really just studying it all and looking you know and and just focusing on my part of it you know because I couldn't control anything else very well you know but I can control my part you know and that's what I was looking at and I it made me realize that you know that you know the rights are there for a reason you know and I don't want to live in a country where it's not that way you know that's the the big thing you know you don't want to be a part of that being accepted you know because if nobody says anything it'll it'll it it would keep happening it would get worse is what would happen you know if nobody ever challenges anything