average day. It was actually pretty slow that day. There was nothing going on. Next thing you know, shots fired at the LA Fitness. There's no way. That's my gym. I go to that gym, you know, once or twice a day at least. So, I'm driving there. I'm pretty close, actually. Uh, very close. And as I pull up, there's just people flooding out of the gym, yelling, screaming, and there's people that are already shot. I could see I had my rifle and um I brought And >> you're alone so far? >> Yeah, I'm by myself. You're listening to 56, a Panelis County Sheriff's Office podcast. I'm Ricky Butler with Laura Sullivan and Ashley Culie. Our guest, I think, has worked at every law enforcement agency in the state of Pennsylvania. Uh he was first on scene for a pretty notable uh mass shooting situation. He's trained uh dogs for the Navy Seals. Uh and now he's in our training division. It's Corporal Jim Lancia. Jim, thanks for joining us. Um, we're going to get into all that and more on this episode. But first, Ashley has a question. >> Oh boy. >> Yep. This is the worst part. The >> scariest part >> kind of. And that's that's on theme. >> Oh yeah. >> At the time of recording this, we are a few days out from Halloween, so I feel like this is appropriate. >> If you had to survive a zombie apocalypse with the last uh with three characters from the last TV show or movie you watched, how screwed are you? Oh, I'm I'm pretty good because I was watching uh Generation V, so I've got superpowered people. >> That should help. >> Okay. >> Interesting. That That's uh good. Who's Is it my turn? Rick, you go. Um No. However, I'm thinking of what I last watched. >> You usually I watch some like Victorian historical, so that wouldn't really me. That would have been bad. >> That'd be really bad. >> Yeah. >> Did you say any like the last thing you watched period? >> The last TV show, movie, like >> documentary. Does that >> Yeah, that works for me. Well, I watched some of the John Candy documentary last night. Uh, and I'm I'm pretty much toast. >> Pretty much toasted. >> It's just all jokes and blow, right? >> Yeah, pretty much. >> Pretty much. I mean, Eugene Eugene Levy could get him with the eyebrows, I guess. I'm not sure. I don't know. I got nothing. >> Well, I started watching that uh Netflix series with I forget the name. Somebody help me here. He was a farmer back in like the 20s or 30s where >> Oh, Ed Gene. >> Yes, sir. That's it. Yeah. I think I'm going to be fine. >> I don't know about you guys. I'm good. >> Yeah. He's just going to wear all the zombie. Actually, he might really enjoy the zombies. >> I think I think I win. >> He might side with the zombies against you. >> Okay, that's true. Wow. I may be interested. >> I thought I was good. Um, completely coincidental, last night we watched Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice. >> So, I think I think I'd be pretty good. >> Yeah. >> Pretty much one of the zombies. >> Yeah, exactly. I feel like he would speak their language and we'd be >> Gucci. >> That's it. Yeah, that's a good one. >> Nice. >> Yeah, I'm I'm I'm toast. All right. >> Very good. That wasn't too bad, was it? >> Absolutely not. That was easy. >> All right. Corpal Jim Lancia, you've been with us here at the sheriff's office for how long? Few years now. It's been it's been a minute. >> It's just making to nine years. >> Nine years. But but before that, you were literally everywhere else. So, um grew up in Pittsburgh. >> Yes, sir. >> Catholic school. Ooh, yes. And grade school and high school. >> All right. The whole way through. So, you have a lot of like welts from yard sticks and whatnot. >> Yeah. >> Cuz that that's a thing, right? >> I think so. Yeah. Well, >> it was a thing. Well, back then. >> It was a thing back then. >> I don't know about nowadays. >> We're not going to we're not going to age you. >> I know you failed religion one year and had to take religion in summer school. So, >> which that has got to be like a big a big just kick to a a religious school when like the one thing that you're supposed to do. Anyway, >> we'll let that go. No, we No, we don't have to. Sorry. You don't scare me. Uh, yes. I failed in ninth grade. I failed uh religion and had to get a summer school for religion. >> Were you just Were you just not chewing the wafer the right way or >> It's just I I don't even know. It's Listen, school was not my thing. My parents I feel bad like I owe them a lot of money. >> They they you know, even back then, right? So, we're talking about the 90s. My dad was probably paying like $5,000 a year for me to go to school. And I just Yeah. No. >> Biffed it. >> I did. Yeah, >> 100%. So, sorry, Dad >> and mom. >> So, you're um And then really no law enforcement in your family. >> No, >> really. Maybe some family that had some law enforcement exposure. >> That's true. >> We'll let that go. >> That's true. >> But um but so why why law enforcement? How'd that happen? >> You know, just growing up uh I would always, you know, as a kid play like military and crawl and you know, guns and so forth and so on. So early on I knew 100%. Not necessarily uh law enforcement, military without a question. Yeah. Even in high school, uh 100% like I know I'm going to graduate. I'm going to go I really the Marines is what I wanted to do. >> Um so I kind of had that in mind and maybe that's why I blew off school so much. I I don't know, right? But um that was my goal. And then uh just randomly um my dad's like why don't you try to get into the police academy? >> I was like at age 18 cuz you know I graduated I was you know 18 years old and I was like there's no way that they're going to accept me at age 18. There's just no way. He's like try it and I did. I went and had an interview and next thing you know I think like about a week later they called me back said you're accepted. Uh I graduated high school like June >> and I was in the police academy in August. Wow. >> Yes. At age Well, I think I turned 19. I turned 19 at that point. >> Is that And it But is it 18 in Pennsylvania? Like, >> so not really. I mean, to go to the school. Yes. But for the gun and my dad had to buy it. >> Yeah. >> And we're talking, you know, we're talking back in the early 90. Yeah. Yes. So, it was >> You can do that. You can do things with this, but you can't buy it. >> Right. Right. Makes no sense. But yeah, my dad had buy my gun and uh it was a revolver back in the day. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So then um how does the academy work up there or how did you like were you sponsored? Did you just go and see what happens? >> Uh no paid for it went on my own. Uh I think at that time it was approximately 3 months school. >> So I just went to school. Um it wasn't a living at least that I've been to multiplemies. That one was not a living. That was just every day >> go to school leave come back the next day. And then like what where where is like what county is like where is this is this school >> right? So it's called Alageney County. Okay. So basically Pittsburgh is the big city in Alaggheney County. Okay. Okay. >> Um and it's it's a big county. Uh there's don't quote me but I think there's like 105ish police departments inside of Eleny County. >> In that one county. >> Yes. >> That sounds crazy. >> It is. But you know you're talking about some agencies that have two people, three people or or 100, 200, 500. It just depends. Everybody has like a piece of their pie >> over a hundred. >> Yes. >> Now, are we talking also like port authority police or or you know, transportation police? Like that's factoring all that in. >> Port authority, county, cities, burrows, townships. >> See, next time people look at us sideways in Penelis County for having like 24 agencies, be like nothing. >> Where are you from? >> Right. Nothing. >> Check out Pennsylvania. >> That's right. >> Um Wow. So that that's there's plenty of jobs then >> actually you would think but no the the competition at least back in the 90s right or even in 2000s >> the competition's crazy. So you would have say a local agency maybe let's just say for the fun of it they have 100 people >> well you know two people retire. So now we have two job openings in that particular police department and you'll have hundreds of guys that apply. >> Wow. >> So the competition is crazy. Now, not only is the competition crazy, but you had to pay to take get an application, right? You had to be you had to go through the whole testing process and everything. And if you think about the percentages, it was is it's very difficult. >> Wow. >> It's not easy. So, it's all civil service. >> So, sounds like a racket a little bit. Like the township is like it's $100 to apply, y'all. >> It's And some of them even back in the 90s were $50, $100. 100%. Yeah. >> That's crazy. >> Wow. Yes. It's so getting a job. And listen, I don't know how it is now. I've been gone for a minute, but back then very difficult. >> That's just crazy. Well, but then of course we're also assuming that those 100 agencies are big, which they're not. Obviously, you said there were some really small ones. So, you may have the same amount of law enforcement spots in Panelis County as you did then, but there's there's, you know, Got it. >> Got it. >> Very interesting. >> So, >> if you're thinking about applying here, we don't make you pay to apply. >> Yeah. You can apply for free. Uh, and yeah, >> you might even get $30,000 if we start doing that. >> We might pay you to to come here like just to show up instead of >> Yeah, then definitely sponsor. >> All right, that gets our academy that gets our we fulfill our HR contract. Yeah. Okay, good. >> Um, so uh you're 19, which is actually pretty scary because you don't know anything. >> I I agree with you 100%. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. >> So which so which so you go through the process, you get you pass and then who hired you? So it took a minute. Okay. Because again, >> so you're just floating out there like >> competition, right? So I started working in a like a plumbing warehouse, plumbing heating warehouse, just doing that thing to make some money. And then eventually >> the So I graduated August, September, like Novemberish of that year. And then the following year, I got hired. >> Now, this is with you actively applying or like Okay. >> Yeah. And it's a process. It takes time just like our, you know, our process takes time. This it takes time, >> but you know, way more competition. >> Um, so it took a minute. Uh but then I finally did. Uh I got lucky. I got picked up by a uh a police department. >> Okay. Which police department was that? >> The city of Claritin. >> Claritin. >> Yeah. It's a small agency. Um actually they were disbanded and then the city decided that they were going to start their police department up again. And so it was like brand new uh startup from >> Okay. So it had been disbanded and then >> Yeah. >> So you're like brand new guy, brand new agency. >> Yes. The rookie is going to fix everything. The rookie is just going to make this agency. >> When you when you say small, >> how how big of an agency are we talking? >> So eventually, you know, let's call it like 20 to 25. >> Okay. >> So, initially even smaller than that and then once we got up, you know, everything running, then it it became a little larger and then there's promotions and K9 and all kinds of stuff. But it took a minute. It's a small city that was a mill city, like a steel mill city that was, you know, just thriving and booming at one point, but then just complete poverty, extremely high drug trafficking area. They actually would call it the uh the the heroin hub of Western Pennsylvania. >> Charming. >> Straight chaos. >> I don't even know I'm still alive. I swear to you. >> Great place to learn, though. >> You know what? Ultimately, 100% true. like there's I dealt with just >> just about everything. >> So, it was good. It was a good learning experience. But again, like you were saying your point, age 19, what do I know? >> I learned quick. >> So, talk about the I mean, what they give you a car? Like, what how are your first days out there? The trial by fire. >> Yeah. I mean, it it really honestly was uh because you're just getting a mixture of guys, some with police experience, some with zero police experience. We had, I think, two cars and then the one car broke because it was a used car and I remember patrolling in a Dodge Diplomat, right? So, you know what that is? >> We have one still car. That's right. I forgot about that. So, that was kind of my first police car. Dodge Diplant, >> but you only had one and the rest of the agency all in one car. So, we would have sometimes like two people up front and someone sitting in the back. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Exactly. >> One call at a time. Uh yeah, listen. >> Or they do they drop you off and be like, "Hey, handle this. We'll be right back." >> I mean, seriously. >> No, we would all go together. We would all go together. Yes. >> But then, you know, that was fixed. It was just a matter of getting cars and like again, this is from scratch, >> right? Starting from nothing. >> Yeah. >> So, talk about, you know, what kind of in in the heroin hub, >> what what kind of stuff you're dealing with? What's happening? >> Lot extremely violent. >> Give us some stories. >> Tons and tons of drugs. uh to the point where you would stop people that had hero a lot of like even like they called bundles of heroin back then. I don't even know what they're called now. I have no idea. But they would be, you know, packs of heroin and we would get those and to most police officers that'd be like a big deal to us. We would just look at it and kind of like laugh and literally just Yeah, exactly. Whatever. Throw it >> away. Other places would have a press conference about those. >> Oh yeah. No. No. Unless you had mass quantities, we it was laughable. We did not have time. Um, you know, I tell the recruits here like, you know, the days that they say they're busy when they're answering a few calls, like I would we'd have 20, 25, 30 calls a night per shift, actually. >> And were you on eight hour shifts back then? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it it was super busy. Uh, lots of shootings, lots of homicides, lots of rapes. Um, just very very violent place. It was nothing for us to get, you know, 20 25 guns a month off of people. >> Wow. >> Shot at multiple times. >> And like are there, you said a small agency like are there detectives that cover some of the stuff or because it's like up and coming? Is that something the state police would handle if you had like a a homicide or something? >> Right. Yeah. So if we had something big at that point there was no detectives. We would call >> like the county police or the state police. The state police really didn't want to have anything to do with us because when the city police department originally disbanded, the state police had to patrol it. They had kind of no choice. So they had, >> right, they had to take it, >> right? But they were kind of >> responding from their barracks, which was probably 40 minutes away. So good luck with that. Good luck. >> And that's hence the reason like when we took it was the wild wild west, right? Because they would respond, but it would be an hour, two hours later. Did you ever have any like early on situations where you're like, "Jim, what are you doing?" >> Um, I I I don't think that >> or a rational person would have said, "Jim, what are you doing?" >> I don't know. I think at that age and that like I totally wanted to do that job. No, I don't think it ever hit me like >> But you were shot at like all the time, right? >> All the time. Like it was not even a thing. >> You're saying it's very nonchalantly. It is very much a thing. >> I got to tell you the world. It's a thing. You're you're at you're on a call and it's just like, "Oh, somebody's shooting at me." Like, what do you Give us some examples. >> It's happened, Mo. Uh, so gosh, there's lots. Um, I was trying to do a traffic stop on someone. I knew the driver. I knew he was under suspension. So, okay. Well, I'm going to stop him. Stop him. Uh, he gets out of the car right away. Right. That's a clue. >> That's a clue. Yeah. >> Right. And also the clue was he had his hand down his pants, like the front of his pants. Another clue. >> Okay. That's a clue. He starts, you know, taking off running. You know, thankfully through training and experience, right, you don't run directly behind somebody, right? Why? Well, because he just pulled out his gun, pointed behind, and started pulling the trigger. Now, if I would have been running directly behind him, >> yeah, >> I would have probably been shot easily, but I was off center. >> Uh, just at that time, then my partner actually hit him with a car. So, hit him, he went flying, and then when he got arrested, hey, you know, >> this guy was arrested like 15, 20 times. >> Well, you know him. So it's like here you need a computer to run something, but Jim's like, >> "Nope, >> that's Allan, >> take them." >> And that's exactly how it was. And it was sad because like >> it's funny like we're make but it was sad because we had to arrest people five, six times with guns and right back on >> back out they go. >> Yeah. You know, we do our jobs but you can't >> Yeah. >> So >> Wow. Any other notable stories, pursuits or anything crazy? >> Uh yeah. So, I mean, plenty of shootings, but uh yeah, there was um we had a kind of a crazy pursuit, but remember this is back in the 90s, so there was really >> no there was pursuit policies, per se, but nothing like restrictive like we have now. >> Uh there was a call on a radio of a gentleman and his daughter in a car. >> He was suicidal and he had lots of guns was the information we were given. And this was I don't know sometime in the early morning. So, let's call it like 1:00 in the morning. And I was a sergeant at that time. I was rid It was a two-man patrol car. And I had a newer guy driving. And I told him, "Hey, let's just park over here. We'll sit here. We're never going to see this vehicle. Like, it's just we'll do our due diligence to see what we can do." And I swear to you, not 10 minutes later, here comes this truck. It was a pickup truck. It had a cap on it. And uh I was like, "Well, let's let's check out." So, we get behind him. Sure enough, it was him, right? We had the plate information and stuff and uh we put the lights on, try to stop him. His car stops and then his daughter gets out of the vehicle. So, you know, obviously we call in, hey, we need somebody to check the daughter, see what's going on, and he takes off. Oh, we get down on Main Street. It's a it's a highway basically. So, and again, keep in mind this is 2 o'clock in the morning, 1:00 in the morning, whatever. And now he's really moving. So, if I remember correctly, he was probably easily doing 100 105 in his pickup truck. And uh specifically remember, you know, calling in the radio, hey, listen, this guy's excessive speed. We are calling this off. Lights and siren are off, >> but we were still behind him obviously and not speeding, but I could see his tail lights way up in the distance. And at one point, I seen his tail lights starting to fade >> to the left like on the oncoming traffic. And and and unfortunately he hit another car dead on. >> And uh Yeah. And you know, I specifically remember that because it was like you were watching a movie because that vehicle was that he hit was up in the air just flipping. I could see it in slow motion. It was just flipping flipping. It landed. His truck I think it was like a thousand feet. That car slid, flipped. And um so I told the driver, "Stop. Let's check that poor guy that got hit." And I mean he was he was dead instantly. >> Um and then I ran down to the truck and that guy he was breathing however slightly but like his last breaths. >> So I mean that's it was a pretty crazy one. But the backstory to that was um you have the roadway that was on the bottom where the pursuit was. >> There was a roadway above it, right? uh a year to that exact day, he and his wife were on the road above and he lost control of his motorcycle. His wife got thrown off the motorcycle and she died right in the spot where he ended up he shot himself as he was driving at 110 mph. That's why the vehicle veared off and hit the uh the other guy. So she fell, died there, and so I guess he wanted to uh on the anniversary of her dying, he wanted to kill himself, but unfortunately, you know, somebody he took somebody else and >> almost took his daughter, too. >> Yeah, it's he pushed her out of the car. Like we seen the door open and you could tell like she got pushed out. >> Oh, okay. >> Um but you know, like that's that story sucks. But then we had to do a death notification which is just >> for the other Yeah. That poor guy, he had um if I remember correctly, six kids. >> Yeah. So, we had to tell his mom because he was just back in that area for like a business trip and I think he live he lived in another state. So, yeah, six kids. >> So, you know, pursuits, you know, you you hear a lot of people complain about pursuits, but until you're behind pursuits and you're chasing people and you see so much death and destruction, it's not worth it. >> Mhm. Yeah, there's very few things worth chasing somebody and you know people dying especially innocent people you know if they're criminals like listen it is what it is >> but uh innocent people dying it's just it's just not it's just not so much no definitely not >> so you mentioned that you were sergeant >> I was so we we skipped ahead then so went that whole not too much ahead >> not too much yeah not too much right uh I so yes I got promoted to sergeant pretty fast couple years I was unofficially sir uh the youngest sergeant in the state of Pennsylvania. I think I was 21, 22. >> Still at the same agency. >> Same agency, but big big uh money increase. I started out, we didn't even talk about this. Gosh. Uh so I started out when I got the job initially, $525 an hour, right? >> I know. And then uh when I got promoted to sergeant, I think it was like a couple dollars more. or so like whatever. 725. >> Big money now. >> Yeah. Big money. >> Extra large coffees for >> Oh, yeah. That's right. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So, I mean, you know, back then it was what it was. And you're working for an agency that they had no money. >> Mhm. >> But the experience, >> you know, that's where it was at, >> man. Yes. >> They should have put out some fake position so they could get $100. >> Oh, man. Then they would have had more money. >> Listen, I'm pretty certain I had to pay to take that that that one, too. I mean, it was probably $ 20, $30. Some of them were $ 20, $30, some were 50, some are $100 just to apply. >> You know, I had a really good um Secret Service case from that place, too. It's pretty interesting story where um it was again, like I said, high drug trafficking area. Um and there was projects, there was multiple projects in the city. So, me being the good officer I was, I'm out doing patrol. It's late at night. I see a car, a white guy driver. He picked up one of the known prostitutes like you know everybody knows we've probably arrested her hundred times right so I see that I kind of look at his car he had a whole bunch of like Glock stickers and again in police work that's a clue >> right um so you know he uh blew through a stop sign he had no turns no turns he didn't do anything right so I stop him >> as I'm approaching the vehicle um you know being a good officer with my flashlight check the back seat I seen a duffel bag and right away you I'm thinking gun, but what I seen in the bag was a large amount of money. Like I was like, "Okay." Right. So, I talked to him. I do my thing. Uh we ended up arresting him because he did have some guns and some of them were stolen. Uh seized the bag of money. Um but you can tell like it wasn't, again, this is the '9s, so you can tell it was fake money, but it was done really well. >> So, the Secret Service deals with that portion. So, um, I turn that over to the Secret Service. This is I'm speeding the story up, of course. >> Of course. Yeah. >> Um, they call me. It's a good case. They're going to fly in. Hey, we're flying in in such and such a date. I'm like, ah, that sucks. I'm going to be on vacation. >> I can't I can't be there, but my partner will be there. So, they fly in. They do their thing. They go to his job. They arrest him. And they're going to go hit his house because they want to see like, does he have printers? Does he have more money there? And so forth. So, they get there. two uh Secret Service uh guys. They get to the house, they hear a dog barking inside, right? And they're like, "Hey, is that, you know, does that dog bite people?" And the guy's like, "Yeah, he's pretty aggressive." So, they told him, "Hey, yeah, go ahead and secure your dog." Well, that's not something we do in law enforcement ever, right? Especially this guy was under arrest, basically. So, he goes in, goes to wherever he goes and gets a gun and shoots himself, >> right? Yeah. They um go in the house and he it was a pretty big operation. And he had printers. He had rooms set up with printers and money and everything else. So yeah, pretty crazy. It's a crazy one for sure. >> What else you got, Jim? I mean, >> you got you got stabbed. Was that at this agency? >> Uh, yes. >> You don't you don't even remember you got stabbed. >> Top five things I talk about. >> Again, it's, you know, trying to remember. Like, listen, I'm old, sir. >> Well, listen. >> I remember every single time I got stabbed in my life, which which is zero, >> but I remember. It was, you know, like listen, it was it was a domestic. We're going to arrest this guy and I'm fighting with him and I didn't even know I got stabbed. Simple as that. Like not until afterwards, right? You got the adrenaline going, you're fighting. >> Uh, you know, he's fighting with me. We get him subdued and handcuff him and yeah, next thing you know, I'm like, I'm bleeding. >> That's odd, right? Because I got I got a vest on and stuff. But anyway, he he I got a little bit uh I was underneath my vest just below the vest where it stopped. So, wow. >> Yeah. It's >> But I mean, vests don't always stop edge weapons anyway, right? >> No, you know, you have the center plate that's a little bit harder, right? If it hits in the center plate, you're good to go. But it's it can go through the Kevlar. >> Definitely. But, you know, again, >> just no big deal. I mean, people It happens all the time. >> Car crashes. I got hit in the back of the head with a tire iron one time. Like, >> I didn't hear that story. >> Yeah, it's because I forget all this stuff. I need >> Because he got hit in the back. I have many brain injuries, so I can't remember. >> Well, you remembered a lot of details about that about that pursuit, though. So, you still got something going out there. >> Definitely. Yeah, a little bit. Sir, >> do you have a uh I heard you did a stint in firefighting, getting to be the hero rescuing somebody from a burning apartment. >> We had a couple actually. And, you know, props to the firefighters. >> It's just not my thing. Like listen, I would I swear to you, I'm not trying to be, you know, that guy, but I would rather get shot at than go in a burning house because you literally have no control. >> You know, if you're in a shooting, you know, you could you could make moves to make the probability of getting shot less. Right. Right. >> You know, but with that, you have nothing. You have nothing. Yeah. I mean, there's a few of them, but the one I, you know, really do remember is this building was on fire. It was an apartment building. Uh me and my partner go in, we go to the third floor because we had information from a neighbor like, "Hey, this lady is still up there." And like when I when I'm telling you it's on fire, it's on fire. Like we're going up the steps. You can hear things of the building falling apart. That type of fire. And we get there and I was like, "We got to go. We got to go. This place is on fire." She's like, "I'm not leaving without my dog." No, you're leaving now. And she's like, "I'm not leaving without my dog." And you can tell like when someone's serious, she wasn't leaving. She would have went down in flames with that. So me and my partner start flipping over furniture. We find her dog. We run down the steps. We get her. As we're going across the street, I swear the literally the building the front of the building fell in. So we were who knows seconds away from >> the disaster once again. >> Again. >> Once again. >> I think for zombie apocalypse. I'm just going to hang out with Jim. >> Yeah. forget. >> Hey, listen. Uh, luck is not a tactic in police work, in law enforcement, but >> sometimes we're just lucky. >> Yeah. >> Yep. It's true. >> That's wild. >> Yep. >> That's crazy. >> So, I have a I have a lame joke, but um >> so you know, they had lots of problems there. Heroin, everything, but allergies. No allergies, right? >> No allergies. >> I mean, the name it's Clarative. >> Oh gosh. >> Good one. That's all I It's Clarin. >> Richie, anything. What do >> you mean? No, >> no. >> Yeah, >> I like a stupid joke. >> That that is indeed a stupid one. >> Um, so how long are you at this agency? Like where cuz you >> Yeah, >> you being promoted to sergeant like at 21 is >> Yep. And then I saw did that's where I started my K9 career too. Okay. >> Which is kind of important. I started my first dog was 1995. >> Okay. >> Dual purpose dog >> for that agency. >> For that agency, right? They obviously they didn't have a dog. back in the day they did probably like in the 60s they did >> um but I started the first K9 unit since the you know up and running again but um 1995 he was a German shepherd from Czechoslovakia >> so that was kind of my first introduction to K9 which was phenomenal >> but that dog taught me a lot he was very um hard-headed let's say >> so started that and that kind of started my whole love of canines and and training I got into be a trainer and so forth and so on with with uh with that dog. >> That was a really difficult dog, right? Like he would he would just turn around and bite you when he got too excited, right? >> And that happens often with dogs like they if they have really high drives, they got to release that somehow, right? And if they're not biting somebody or biting an object, then it can happen, right? So he Yeah, he would often get fired up and you know, maybe the suspect gave up, so he wasn't getting a bite, so he turned around and bite me. Oh yeah, he bite me in in the stomach usually or a leg or something like that. But as a canine, you kind of just That's just >> But he would just let go. >> Yeah, just let Okay. >> Yeah. Never anything like But like they're super smart. Like they know, you know, >> smarter than all of us. >> Well, yeah, that's definitely smarter. Some people I work with, sir. But uh um but you know, they they know, you know, hey, I'm biting my owner, whatever. And uh they would bite, but nothing >> nothing to hurt you really. >> So, back to starting the unit though. So, you just are you just like, you know, I'd rather have a dog right now than what or like why how did that come to be? Like, hey, we need to start a can you? >> Yeah. You know, I don't know. I didn't even know. That's a great question. I never really tried to think about that again, but I knew I had a like a >> a real interest in it. So, I started doing research and then started talking to a few different people >> uh in that general area that had dogs and I just proposed it. >> Doesn't need one. And they said, "Yeah, >> I got lucky." >> But you're doing it. So, >> yeah. Yeah. I got lucky and it was a phenomenal experience. So training back then was compulsion. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah, >> definitely. And it's um listen, that's just the way you know training >> animals and training people were it progresses, right? Things change, right? And if you if you stick with the old methods, they don't necessarily >> it's not good, you know, and so yes, a lot of compulsion. >> So that's like the Catholic school method with the the beatings, right? >> Yes, definitely. Yeah. And it's it just it doesn't work. You know, it's we would like to always say it's like, you know, if >> you know, you're never getting paid. Like, if you come to work and you just get beat every time you come to work, >> right? >> Are you going to want to come to work, right? >> Are you going to even want to do your job? >> No. Like, it has to be positive >> positive reinforcement. >> Um, and it it just it works out so much better. Yeah, >> definitely. >> So, and then you because at one point you leave that agency and you go to the sheriff's office there. >> I do. Yeah. Elgen County Sheriff's Office. >> And why was that? And first of all, sheriffs are different in Pennsylvania, a lot of places, but they what kind of responsibilities did that sheriff's office have? >> So, with that agency, you know, a lot of the court system stuff, um, generally that's kind of the sheriff's agency there. U, we had a fugitive squad and that's what I went to. I was on the fugitive squad and I was canine there also. >> So, you just went straight there for >> I actually, you know, I got lucky. I took the first dog to the second job. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> Which is kind of unusual. >> Yeah. >> Um and then as I'm with them, I actually got another dog when I was with them. >> So yeah, fugitive squad basically alls we did every single day was knock on people's doors, arrest them for, you know, generally were felony warrants. So it was >> some of the bigger stuff, robberies, rapes, murders, drug dealers. Oh, it was good. It was It was definitely a great experience. So, lots of dog bites, lots of searches with my dog. He was >> Your second dog was a mal, right? >> Yeah, second dog was a mal. Uh, but both of them were um dual purpose, so patrol and narcotics. >> Okay. >> But, uh, yeah, >> they they didn't use mouse a lot back then, right? >> I I actually, and again, don't quote me because someone out there probably get very upset. Uh, I think I may have had probably one of the first mouths in the state of Pennsylvania also. >> Um, and that was 19, let's call it 1999, >> okay, >> maybe 2000. >> Um, I actually worked with a guy that was a officer here in Florida to get my MAL. >> So, it was kind of unheard of up in Pennsylvania. >> Now, now because you mentioned that you brought your first dog to your second job, was that an agency? Was the dog an agency asset or was it like did you per like not knowing you guys make like a dollar an hour? So are they are you are they giving you the dog? Like how is that how does that dynamic work? >> So I mean I used that dog at that agency the first agency for let's call it five years. Um the money >> for that dog came through like the DA's office. So I got the office the city didn't necessarily put it on. Got it. >> So right a county agency I was going to a county agency. It wasn't It wasn't that It was pretty easy transition. >> Okay. Yeah, because it's it's a countywide entity, per se, that it Okay. >> Wow. Yeah. >> So, before you had that dog, you briefly had another dog, right? >> Oh, yes. I forgot what the dog that dog's name was Brody. I just I don't even know why I remember that, but anyway. So, yes, I wanted the Mau. Um, so, uh, I got a dog that was part Mau, right? Because that that's a it's kind of a thing. You get a dog that's part Mau, part shepherd. >> Yeah. We have a lot of those. >> Yes. >> So you get the best of both kinds, right? What what are the qualities that each one has? Yes. Why what are they? >> Well, I mean, so German shepherds tend to be a little bit more mellow than a malawa. Malawas are think sometimes you call them mala nuts. Uh because they are maligators. They're phenomenal dogs, but you know, you get a a high highive mal um malawa, I mean it could ruin your life, especially at work at work and fine, but at home, oh boy, it's a lot. It's a lot. So, you know, so that's why they started kind of breeding both of those dogs and you kind of would get a mau shepherd mix that kind of was somewhat mellow. So, and then that's so that's why they okay that's why they did that. But anyway, so I get this dog. I was excited. He was a great dog. Had him for probably a month and then took him to his first vet um checkup. And I taken, you know, doing the thing there and the doctor puts the stethoscope on his chest to listen to his heart and like right away I knew something like her eyes got huge. I'm like, "Yeah, what's what's going on here?" It's like, "Oh, he has a really bad heart murmur or something. Something's not good." >> So they do more testing or whatever. And she's like, "Yeah, this dog cannot be a police dog." Simple as that. So I called the vendor. Vendor's like, "Okay, yeah, bring them back and, you know, we'll take care of them and you can pick another dog." So I was like, "What do you mean by take care of them?" You know, we'll take care of them. >> Take care of them, >> right? Take care of them, right? So we didn't want that. Especially the vet. And I talked to the vet about it and she's like, "Yeah, I know." So I I ended up I I lied a little bit, sir. I hate to say that, but I'm just, you know, it was for the animal. It was for the animal. >> You saved a dog's life. >> Right. Exactly. I think that's acceptable. >> Yeah. >> So I just said, "Yeah, well, you know, he didn't make it." >> Oh, well. >> Yeah. She was right. The doctor was right. He didn't make it. So I I honestly I ended up giving that dog to uh a fellow deputy and that dog lived a perfect life for his entire you know 12 15 years. So it was the right decision. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. A dog witness protection somewhere. >> We kept it quiet. We changed his name and everything. >> Sha we shaved him. >> His name was not Brody. >> Yeah. His fake name got his paw print files. His >> twin brother. Yeah. >> Excised. Yeah. So, is like Intervol going to come after you now? Is this one a European dog or they >> I mean, yeah, we'll see. We don't know if I disappear and now you know. You never know. Yeah. >> So, uh you at one point um in your career there in and about Alageney County, they start talking about layoffs. Is this the same agency? So, then it's like, okay, you want to beat it to the punch. So, >> yeah. So, and yeah, they were talking about layoffs and I was kind of newish there and family and like, you know, I don't I need to work. I don't I'm not that guy to sit at home doing anything. So, I wasn't I tried to get in front of it. Took a test with the state police, Pennsylvania State Police >> and uh you know, I did well. Like I told you, I wasn't the greatest at schooling or even taking tests, but I scored very well. And u you know, long story short, I got hired. Uh they promised me, oh, you know, you you'll you know, even though you're in Pittsburgh, right, you have to go to the academy. It was a living academy in Hershey, >> which is, you know, three three hours roughly away from Pittsburgh. I had a whole family there and everything. Young kids. >> Um so, okay, cool. >> You already certified in the state, though. Oh, yeah. Law enforcement certified, but you still had to go to their academy. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> It's a like I said, six month living academy. There's always fights like uh you know Pennsylvania p the state uh police academy is the hardest. It's always a fight between Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Always back and forth. But it was it was it was difficult but it was good. It was very military-like. Uh the whole like inspections of your room and everything else. Um but they did pro like hey you know you you make it through we'll bring you back to you know Pittsburgh area. And yeah that that that didn't happen. I went further away. So I was like in in the Philadelphia area for a while and that just that didn't work out. Uh you know having young kids and stuff like that. So >> So is that like a like a traditional like lawn like it's just state police? >> Yes. So >> well different than Florida if that's what you're asking. No. So Pennsylvania state police handle everything. >> Right. But well that's what I mean. Just like you know more more like the sheriff's office but statewide. >> Correct. Okay. >> Yes. They answer you know all the calls and you know because some people think of the state police just oh they're out writing tickets on the highway but >> that's just Florida. >> Yeah. Right. This was this was everything, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Did you have to pay for the academy that was living in 6 months and then they put you >> far away? >> Nope. >> Okay. You're getting paid every at least there's that. >> Yeah. No, it was 6 months and you know if you didn't if you did not pass an inspection, you did not go home. There's guys that went >> weeks and weeks and weeks or even months without going home to see their family. >> So, >> did you pass every inspection? >> So, I like that. Uh, so there was I think approximately 110 112 of us and let's see myself and another guy were the only two people that passed like every single inspection. So I'm pretty picky with uniforms and cleanliness and stuff like that. So you know cuz you had to you had to make your bed and the angles and the measurements. Everything had to be perfect, >> right? Otherwise, you know, when they they checked if if if it wasn't perfect, you you didn't you didn't pass. Um, I did, you know, I I stretched it a little bit. I uh slept on top of my bed because I would measure everything out and then I would get scotch tape and tape everything. So it's Listen, man. >> It got you to go home. >> Exactly. Right. Um so I would put you know tape on it to keep the the angles and everything perfect. Then I would sleep as you know still as I could on top of that bed. Every morning I would just wake up and fix it. >> Tighten everything up. It was it was >> done perfect. >> So you got to go home every weekend? >> Yes. Well, no, not every weekend. Maybe just once a month. >> Okay. >> Yeah, it was uh it was very strict. Even military guys that went through boot camps and some of the harder boot camps said this was our and I believe it for sure. >> Was it in the winter or summer? >> It was in a winter. So, you know, we'd be out running three, five miles in the snow, slush, and literally seeing people like there was a guy, I'll never forget in front of me running and he just slipped, broke his ankle, gone. >> Yeah. Um, so you know, and then you're you're down in the snow, in the slush, doing your thing, doing push-ups, and you're soaking wet. Like, it was extremely difficult and very physical. >> Yeah. >> Not only with the running, but we would literally fight, right? They would kind of put you with someone of similar statute. So, um, they gave me, me and this guy got paired up and I later found out after taking lots of hits to the head, sir. Right. That's the head injury part probably. Um, this guy was the military boxing champion, not just in the Marines, like the military champion for all, right? And uh, but I was good with my legs because I trained Muay Thai for a long time. So, I was good with my legs. He was good with his hands. And we kind of came up with a thing where if you don't beat my face in, I won't kick you. So, we kind of came up with that and it worked out well. Um, he did, however, break my eardrum when we were boxing. Not on purpose. It was just it happens, you know, and uh but it was a blessing for me because I didn't have to go swimming. >> So, and they had a Oh, man. I would rather want run 10 miles than swim what we had to do. We had to do some crazy stuff in the pool. >> So, I got I got lucky. I got probably a month off of swimming because I have a broken eard drum. >> That wins. That's definitely a win all day long. >> So, um when we had Detective Plumbing here, you know, he went to the live academy in New Hampshire, right? I think it's New Hampshire. I think so. >> Somewhere up some somewhere up there. >> I mean, his PD was sure for sure. >> So, uh, you know, he kind of gave us his thoughts on on liveinmies and whether they're effective and whatever. What do you think? >> Um, I think it's good. I mean, especially, listen, I already had when I was there, I probably had >> Man, I had probably 12, 13, 14 years of experience. >> So, I was kind of already disciplined stuff, but I I don't >> for newbies coming in. >> I think it's a good thing. >> Yeah, >> I think it's a good thing. there's much more discipline and it's you're kind of it's not just eight hours of your day that you're focused on us. You're focused on us constantly. >> You know, they would do the whole thing just like the military wake us up at 3:00 in the morning and I we're going for a run. It is >> I actually enjoyed it because again like I talked about it earlier is I always wanted to go to the military. That was >> right >> 100% who I am. But I didn't because I chose the path of you know law enforcement just kind of by luck to be honest with you. >> You know I got accepted. That's interesting because I can see I can see both sides of you know your experience coming in and then you know somebody new >> you know how often do you really need that level of discipline and whatever depending on what you're doing but I guess it's the philosophical thing. >> Sure. Yeah. I mean you can look at it so many different ways for sure. >> So um you are working for the state police. Are you a um canine at all for state police? >> No. I was starting to think about heading in that direction. Um, but then >> the whole, you know, away from the family and the kids, like it just it's it's a lot. And then, you know, not seeing the end of of the tunnel with of getting out of that area. >> So, I went back to Elen County and then picked up another police job. >> Okay. So, so, so when um I want to talk about the shooting at the LA Fitness. >> Yes. That's >> So, that was that wasn't state police. >> No, >> no, that was Alageney County. >> Nope. This is what I'm saying, right? >> Check your notes. >> Well, I see the city, but I don't know. So, >> so it was uh the next job after that was um Bridgeville Police Department, and that's where >> and that's in Pennsylvania, >> correct? >> Okay. >> Just outside of Pittsburgh. >> I told I said in the intro we worked at every agency in Pennsylvania. So, >> well, there was a lot, but you know, I was always people ask me all the time like why so many agencies? But I was always trying to better myself. So, if if you look at >> see an opportunity, >> well, with so many agencies too, it's it's different. >> It is. And you know, I was always trying to better myself. Like, so every job that I took wasn't because I had to, it was because I'm trying to better myself, >> try something different. >> Yeah. >> So, >> so tell us about that shooting. I actually remember that shooting. Um, because I remember seeing it in the news and, um, I mean, shootings have always been a thing, but that one in particular, I think, cuz he was targeting women or whatever it was. So, tell us about that. >> Yeah. So, um, working for that agency, again, a theme, right? I was K9. >> So me and my partner just average day. It was actually pretty slow that day. There was nothing going on. Uh next thing you know, shots fired at the LA Fitness. I'm like, that there's no way. That's my gym. I go to that gym, you know, once or twice a day at least. You know, they work. That's my gym. That's >> Nobody would do that to gyms. >> Nobody. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's that's wrong. >> And also most shots fired calls are turn out to be something else, right? fireworks or a backfire or >> backfire of a car, a motorcycle, something. And then this this neighborhood is a nice neighborhood. It's not This is >> This is no heroin hub. >> No, quite the opposite. It was the suburbs of Pittsburgh. Very nice place. >> But anyway, so, you know, sitting there, the call comes in and I'm like, "No." And then I didn't move to be honest with you because then, >> uh, shots fired at LA Fitness. More calls are starting to come. I was like, "Oh, this is real." Mhm. >> So people are calling. >> So I'm driving there. I'm pretty close actually. Uh very close. And we're receiving this information. Hey, um I asked for a description. Well, the description was a white male with a gun in gym clothes. >> That narrows it down. >> That uh Yeah. Right. So um and she did the dispatcher kept on saying like he is actively shooting people. So getting as much information as possible. I got there and again don't quote me. I think it was like 47 seconds or 57 seconds. It was fast. Um, I remembered, "Hey, Jim, don't park at the front entrance because that's what they would expect you to do, right?" So, I took a corner of the building, get out. I remember thinking about taking my dog, but that's not a dog call. 100% not. He would have been a hindrance in there, right? As I pull up, there's just people flooding out of the gym, yelling, screaming, and there's people that are already shot. I could see I had my rifle and um I brought >> And you're alone so far? >> Yeah, I'm by myself. >> Yeah, >> I had my rifle. So, I charged my rifle and I remember I'm not going to go in that door because he's expecting me to come in that door. If he's going to, you know, he can take me out easily and also in that gym, interestingly enough, there's a second story to it. The cardio equipment was on the second story. So, now we have a shooter that could have been in the elevated position coming through. That's that's that's horrifying. So, I was like, "Oh, I'm going to shoot this window out and I'm going to go in through this way." And uh as I raise my rifle, I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on my rifle and something's like, "Stop." And oh, that's where the kids um daycare is. >> Now, was there kids in there? I don't know. But could I take a chance? No, I couldn't take a chance. I was like, "All right, well, this is what I get paid to do, right? This is why I don't work at Walmart. I'm a cop, right? So, this is what I get paid to do, and all right, we're going to do it." And so, uh, I run in, um, the entrance and, you know, again, people running out. I could hear the shots at that time and I remember dispatch specifically saying like, "He's still killing people." So, um, I'm running uh towards the aerobic room. Um, again, it's my gym, so I know that that was an advantage. Um, I run I'm running towards the aerobic room. I get to it. He's still shooting people. I remember with my rifle I started rolling the door and I seen him, he seen me and he shot himself in the head. So he, you know, later we found out like this story can go on forever. There's so many details, but um he had two Glocks with 30 round mags and he was just spraying people that were all it was all ladies aerobics class. He was just spraying everybody with the um the Glocks. He kept the revolver for himself. We later found this out because we hit his house and he had it all written out like what he was going to do and how he was going to do it. He did not want to be he was really worried about being taken by police. So he saved every revolver specifically for himself. But um so uh you know I see that he shoots himself. I go up confirmed that 100% he's dead. He shot himself in the head. So um so I kind of switch gears at that point and start helping some victims. while I was helping a lady that was shot directly beside him. It was a pregnant lady and she just kept on screaming that it hurt and it was burning. So, you know, I started working with her and then uh the dispatch got back on and said, you know, cuz I called it in like, "Hey, the shooter's down." Right? >> She called in. She said, "Hey, we have a second shooter." Like, that's the worst nightmare for law enforcement. Now, at this point, I'm starting to get like a few people here. Um, so and it was confirmed. She's like, "Second shooter, second shooter." Same thing. White mail and gym clothes, right? So I have to leave her and she's screaming and yelling like, but you know, we had victims everywhere. There was people, there were some of the ladies that were dead already. Some were just shot. >> Um, the place was filled with smoke because of the gunpowder, right? >> To the point where the fire alarm was going off and that was loud, right? So you're trying to deal with all this, you know, sensory overload to say the least. So, uh, we get enough guys there, maybe three or four of us, uh, and we start going through the gym trying to see if there's a second shooter. We're opening doors, closet doors, janitor's doors, and there's people hiding everywhere, right? And then we're escorting them out. Um, get to a bathroom. I announce, you know, hey, police, anyone in here? Speak to me now. I give two or three commands and, uh, no answer. It's not, okay, no one's in here, but we have to clear it, right? because the bad guys is not going to say, "Oh, I'm in here." So, I kick the first stall of of the bathroom and nobody was there. I kick the second one and as I kick it, you know, the door's slowly opening. I see feet. I'm like, "Oh, this is this is the shooter. No one's talking to me. I I said I'm here, you know, and I literally start pull, you know, taking the slack up in the trigger and again, don't do it." And thank God I didn't. It was a lady just absolutely petrified, out of her mind. She, you know, because of this whole situation. So, I had to grab her and carry her out to safety, come back in, form back up with that team, and we're pushing through the gym and um as we're going through, uh again, I'm I'm up front and a guy just comes running from the corner and like I startled him, he startled me and again I thought, well, maybe this is a shooter. But again, hey, don't do it. This poor guy, could you imagine this? He's in the gym, men's locker room. I guess he was taking a shower or whatever, but he doesn't hear the commotion. He doesn't hear the shooting. He doesn't hear the alarm because he's deaf. >> So, >> Wow. >> Yeah. It's, you know, somebody was looking out for me that day because I promise you, >> well, now you've gotten a jump scare twice with a gun in your hands. >> Yeah. And then just again, luck is not a tactic in police work, but come on. I got lucky so many times that day. I really did. But so it was bad information. You know, you have so many people in that gym that are calling in, hey, we there's a shooter in dispatch. They do the best they can. You know, God bless those people because like >> you couldn't pay me to do that job. I don't know how I don't know how they do it. Like that's not an easy job. And uh they're trying to filter through all this information and provide us with as much information as possible. And what's good and what's not good, we don't know. So we, you know, we have to act as if there's a second shooter. So, long story short, there ended up, I think, um, five people, I believe, died and maybe like nine or 10 were injured, >> but >> all women, right? That's what he was targeting. >> All women. >> Yes. All women. And through the investigation, you know, we seen that he had a dislike for women. Um, I guess he had trouble with women dating women. They didn't want to date them. I I >> can't imagine why. >> Exactly. Right. you know, and honestly, I'm not going to say his name, right, because he doesn't deserve that, but like he wasn't a bad looking guy. >> He had money in the bank. He had a job. He was just maybe an awkward guy. I don't know. >> And just had trouble. So, he was going to take it out on women. And he reading through his notes, he had practiced this multiple times. So, he had a gun in the gym multiple times going back and forth with a bag or in tucked in his pants just testing it. >> So, you might have been working out. >> Yes. next to him when he came in to test. >> 100%. Yeah, it it could have been. Yeah. So, um Yeah. And then so I ended up getting an award uh like it was Pennsylvania's officer of the year award. >> No big deal. >> Yeah. Yeah. No big deal. >> It happens. >> It happens. >> Just like getting a shot at, you know, stabbed. Whatever. >> I mean, listen, but it's not just me. Like, take cops in general. They're going to be the exact same way. Like, anyone who's been through a lot of stuff like, "Okay, whatever." So I want to back up a bit because just to you you shown up there like let's back all the way up to that because >> I have so many questions but >> for starters you know the long now what you did is like the modern that's the modern expectation right like we're single person response like you're going to go in there you're going to stop the threat that's something the sheriff talks about you know at nauseium >> um and you know typically you're supposed to hang out and wait for other people so you just showed up and you just made was it a policy at the time or were you just like I'm going this. I hear gunshots, I'm going. >> Yeah. I mean, it's the right thing to do right >> now. And had you ever been in a situation like that before? >> Active shooter, like a mass >> I mean, mass casualty situation? >> No, not like that. >> So, how does that how does how do you just go into >> that mode? How how does that happen? Are you even thinking? >> I think that you either have it or you don't. Like, as a instructor, trainer, like we can sharpen those skills that people have, >> but some people don't have it. >> Simple as that. Like I'm not trying to be ignorant or rude. It's >> You can't sharpen a pen, >> right? It's it's it's a fact. >> It's a fight or flight. >> It is. Well, it's flight, fight or freeze. What >> that's what a lot of people do. >> I'm a freezer. >> Horrible. >> For sure. >> Horrible. And And listen, I'm I'm not going to name names or anything like that. But with that incident, interesting enough, there was maybe a couple people that froze and stayed outside as I went in. >> But it's fine. It's okay. I probably It's I was probably better off with them hanging outside than coming in with me. But, >> you know, you don't like it's my job. That's what I get paid to do and that's what I signed up for. So, I'm going to do it. But, yeah, the policies back then were hold, >> get a team, and go. >> That's that's not the right thing. We know that. We know that now. But, I mean, I knew that back then. Yeah. >> Um, and even with uh interesting enough, even with the medics, like the medics, like, you know, they're supposed to stage miles away. Those guys were coming right in. I was literally still searching the gym and those guys were right in there helping people. >> Wow. >> Yeah. which is just completely unheard of. Like that would >> that's not their thing now. Like that's they stage they wait till we set up a rescue corridor >> so forth and so on. So yeah, things worked out >> as best as they could. Let's just say that. >> When was this? >> Uh 2009. >> 2009. Okay. >> Was it a scenario you had thought about at all? Had you and you you play through scenarios in your head probably as as part of your training or just while you're sitting on your cruise or whatever. Had you ever thought if there's an active shooter case like this, I'm just going in. Or is that just instinct at the moment? Like this is the right thing to do. >> Yeah, I think more instinct, but you know, yes, you you play scenarios in your head. Any good cop does? We we try to teach that, too. Like you should be, you know, training yourself even as you're driving home from work like, hey, you know, act like you're stopping that car in front of you. How would you do it? How would you call it out? What if you're walking up to the car and the passenger pulls a gun or what if the driver so you you have to but that particular No, cuz that's pretty, you know, you can go a whole lifetime without having like an active shooter like like that one. >> So, >> so interesting because you see like so what you just described, right? Like yeah, play it out in your head, you know, you're going to call it out, whatever. >> I think there's and and I this is just my perspective. I I feel like there's such a fine line between going through all those scenarios in your head and then >> when something does happen. >> Don't overreact. >> Yeah. >> How do you teach that? >> Again, I think it's you can't teach it. You either have it or you don't. Or they have it a little bit. We're like, "Oh, we can capitalize on that. >> We can we can maybe work with this person to kind of bring that out." >> But that's that's what you want. You don't want somebody to overreact because that's you can't run on emotion in police work. If you run on emotion in police work, that's where officers get in trouble. >> It's not you can't take it personal. >> So, >> so before we move on from this active shooter thing though, so I want to talk about just so you're very nonchalant about a lot of the things that you've been through. Obviously, we're giving you a hard time about it. Um but but obviously, you know, it makes an impact on you like personally. Like how do you >> how do you deal with you know and obviously you've been at it. This is this is one like your first week on the job, right? You sounds like you did everything you were supposed to do. Whoever picks the, you know, Pennsylvania officer of the year award thought you did. So, how do you how do you move through that personally? >> I mean, again, so you shows you how police work has progressed, right? You know, something like this happens nowadays, especially in this agency. We have so much help and so much resources coming from everywhere. >> It's it's phenomenal. >> Back then it was like I remember >> we did have a meeting, right? And well, well that night I remember my sergeant I believe or maybe the chief is like, "Hey, you good? I'm good. All right, I'll see you tomorrow for the next shift." So, okay. Right. >> And like maybe a week later like, "Hey, let's um let's have a meeting about this." >> And uh it was like all of us. There was a whole bunch of people, a lot of cops in there and there just I think there was a psychologist, but >> it was just basically, "Hey, is everybody okay? >> Yeah, we're good." That was it. Because the one thing cops love to do is admit that they're not okay in front of a whole room of other cops with their chain of command watching and >> Yeah. Yeah. But things have changed so much. Yeah. You know, it's okay not to be okay. >> We just It's taken us a long time to get to that point, you know. >> So, >> I mean, do you think it's because you you very I mean, a couple times you said, "Well, this is my job. This is why I don't work at Walmart. This is like whatever." So, you just separate it that way. Is that how you Yes. Pretty much like this is what I do. This is my job. >> Yes. That's what I do. I'm not saying it's right. >> Yeah. I mean, it works for me, at least for now. You know, could that spill over? Yeah, it could. >> But for now, it works for me. >> Uh, I don't suggest it. I would never suggest it to like new people coming in. Like, I would suggest like go get yourself help and talk to somebody and and do all the things that the sheriff provides to us because it is good. >> 100% good. >> So, but I'm good. >> You good? You good? I'm good. >> We're good. >> Yes. It's wild. >> You know, I got one more thing. Yeah. I got one more thing, right? Yeah. And it's kind of weird and I just >> recently figured this out, especially talking to Matt Aken, right? We know all about Matt's story. He's amazing dude. >> But um so I get officer of the year award, which I don't care honestly. Right. You get this you you get this you get this fancy statue, right? I never went anywhere. >> Rubber chicken dinner, >> right? Yeah. >> Yeah. I did get a dinner too, a matter of fact. Thank you. >> I would hope so. But you get this this this statue, right? >> And I think I' I've had that statue sitting around my house, you know, in the living room and then maybe here and then there ultimately in my bedroom currently. >> And uh I never thought this about it, but you look at that thing every day. >> It's like, >> is that good or is that bad? you know, and then I broke it. And like at first I was like, "Oh man, I can't believe like I've never won anything in my entire life that you broke and I just broke this." And can it be repaired? Yeah, it can be repaired. But with an interesting conversation with Matt Akin, I'm like, "Do I really need to keep bringing this up or do I really need to keep looking at this statue every single day of my life?" >> No, I don't. So, I kept it. I didn't fix it, but I kept it and I put it away. Mhm. >> So, um, yeah, it's just, uh, one lesson to think about. >> Yeah, >> I see where you're at. >> I get that. Yeah, >> I get it. >> Yeah. I mean, like, I never thought about it. That made me think about it. >> Mhm. >> So, >> yeah, because it can go different ways for different people. >> Absolutely. >> That'd be the thing. >> Yes. >> True. >> All right. So, you get back into K9 World in a very interesting way. >> Is this coming? So, you you stay at you stay at wherever the hell? >> Bridge. Bridgeville. Get that the flowchart. >> Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. Um, so you you stay at Bridgeville until you get the call from the Navy. >> Yeah. So K9 in Bridgeville. Um, >> so you did it there? Yes. >> Oh, that's right. You ran three. >> You were with the dogs. Yes. >> Yep. Three different uh dualpurpose dogs. >> He ended up getting bone cancer and dying. So like then But anyway, so yes, I got a uh amazing job offer. Ultimately, it's the Department of Defense as a private contractor for instructor for the Navy Seals in uh Coronado, California. >> So, it's the SEAL teams 13, five, and seven. >> How did you end up How did you get on their phone call? >> Was it the award? >> Yeah, it might have been the award. >> Award. >> Might have been the award. >> No, I highly doubt that part. But, um, >> no. So, you know, back in the day, just being canine for I mean, if you add it up, I think it was like 21 years being K9. you just K9's not the it's such a small percentage of law enforcement so you kind of get to know a whole bunch of people and you know there's conferences all over the United States so you're your name kind of gets thrown out >> there simply that >> so >> so they get you get they ask hey are you interested in this >> and you're like California I'm in >> uh yes California absolutely yeah so >> they try they tried first to get you to stay on the >> Virginia yeah no interest I mean cuz listen the the job I had, you know, it was a phenomenal job. Great job, great paying job. I had a house at that location. Like, it was it was great. So, uh, originally I was like, "No, definitely not." And then, you know, the California thing came up and I went for it. So, pretty amazing. It was >> that I mean, that's a hell of a transition because I can't imagine that they just train them to do law enforcement dogs things. >> Uh, no, definitely not. >> What kind of additional things do they train? >> Navy Seal. >> What do they call What do they call a Navy Seal K9? They have a cool >> So the the program is called MPC. It's multi-purpose canine. >> Okay. >> So again, like the name says, right? So they generally were all bomb dogs, but also like apprehension dogs. >> You know, could they find articles? Yes. Just like our dogs do here in Penelis County. Articles. Um some tracking, but not like a that wasn't really a big thing >> with these are the dogs that are like repelling out helicopters and >> Yes. >> Yeah. Like true fur missiles. >> Yeah. Absolutely. So, um, a lot of stuff was mission specific, like, hey, we're going on this mission. This is what we need. >> Wow. So, you're just you're specifically training the dog for like one thing. >> Sometimes, >> what would what would be an example like if they had the dog had to go in tunnels, you would train them specifically to do tunnel work or >> Yes. And and to make sure like because not all dogs could do certain jobs. >> Some dogs just like people, some people excel in certain things just like dogs. Some dogs excel in different things. So, yeah. You know, for example, if it was a tunnel thing, then we would work tunnels with that dog. You know, uh if it was, hey, we need this dog to follow the laser, like, you know, laser pointer to a certain location to check the path before the seals pushed along that path, then we would specifically train that with that dog to make sure that dog did it perfectly. >> So, >> and you're and you're training with their handler. >> Like, do these dogs have handlers or do they just like hang out in their own barracks and like smoke cigars? >> No. So I mean starting from the beginning it's you know we would pick the dogs from different vendors like okay that dog work could work right and that's that's an art in itself like you have hundreds of dogs you can pick from like how do you like you don't look like hey that one's a really good-look dog let me pick that one well it may be a great looking dog but it may suck >> so you really have to know what you're doing when selection comes to play with the police dogs and I really enjoyed that part it was fun right you had do certain testing like hey the traits of this dog is phenomenal. Let's try this dog. So, we would hand select their dogs, bring them back and train them from scratch depending on mission or was it just going to be a regular bomb dog and patrol dog for them? It just it's so dependent on what was going on. >> Um >> and and so you're you're taking them like how much lead time do you have for some of these missions? Like say you've got a dog that's never done tunnel work, which sounds horrifying. >> Um I don't like the dark. What how much lead time do you have to train them to do this? >> Uh well, it depends. Sometimes just months. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And we, you know, these dogs were expensive. And then if you add up the cost of the trainers and equipment, like we're talking big bucks. Big bucks for some of these dogs. >> Are you aware of any major missions that the dogs you trained went on that are notable? >> Um not off the top of my head. >> Yeah. Because >> you're at liberty to talk about probably. Yeah. >> Well, because as a contractor though, like you're probably somewhat removed >> from a lot of that, right? Or quite it's very unique position. Um, very thankful for it. Again, there was only five positions in the world to do what I was doing there. >> And no, we were attached directly to the SEAL teams. >> Oh, wow. So, >> so you traveled with them and everything? >> Yes. Everything like Yeah. We would go for weeks in the desert or weeks to uh training facilities on islands off the coast of uh California. >> Dang. like all their equipment they had, we had a majority of it. So, literally side by side doing everything they're doing. >> Wow. >> So, we had to. And then here I am, you know, I was in, >> you know, that's 2013 to 2016ish. >> You know, I'm wasn't I wasn't 22, sir. I was I was in my 40s, right? >> But I kept up like just I pushed myself and I really enjoyed it and I you know, I still talk to a lot of those guys to this day. Great people, >> great community. >> Do do they Go ahead, Ashley. I was I don't know that you said but like the dogs were they attached to a handler like they are here or or no. >> Right. Right. Yeah. So you Ricky did >> you answer the question. >> Yes. >> Um so yes and no. They would be it's a whole process. Right. So just because like oh Ricky wants to be a canine handler. Well that's nice that Ricky wants to be a canine hand hero but maybe he sucks right? So there's testing for that. No different than in police work. Right? That's why it's super important to listen to the experts with picking especially canine handlers. That is an art too, right? There's only certain traits that we're looking for for K9 handlers. And that was the same thing with the SEALs. No different than in law enforcement. So we would interview the guys, all the SEALs, they would apply for it and then we would have interviews and they would get selected ultimately and then we would pair certain dogs with certain people like this dog I bet you would be good with this guy and this dog would be good with that guy. So that's kind of where it starts. And then they would go on their missions or go overseas and do their thing and come back and maybe they were going to be a K9 handler, you know, again. Um but if not, we would take the dog and we would get another handler and we would use that dog for another handler. >> Did the SEALs have to still have that high-pitched excited praise voice? >> Yeah. which is >> like in the middle of a mission like like the god Osama and then you >> so that's definitely a thing and it does work like people like they laugh about it makes fun but >> god >> dogs yeah dogs love that right >> they do but you know I would almost say with mouths it's less necessary that's that's just my opinion >> they're just so excited and eager anyway they don't need >> they want to work regardless whether you sound like you could have a deep voice or whatever it it's but it does it does work for sure. >> They they did use dogs when they got by lawn, didn't they? >> I think. Yeah. >> Yes, they did. >> Yeah. >> So, you were with the odd number teams and the even number teams were on the other coast or Okay. >> Got it. >> Yep. >> Um I mean, you didn't do this part, but they don't just work with dogs. They work with some marine mammals, too. >> Yes. >> That's amazing. >> Yeah. There's So, there's other divisions, right, out there that uh they worked with like the animal seals and beluga whales. Um >> I feel like I remember hearing about this before. Yeah. It's it's crazy impressive. Like to train a dog like okay that's doesn't seem to be a big deal but like you're training dolphins that's impressive. And they would train him to >> even like uh be a perimeter like the dolphin would like Yeah. Oh yeah. Like in the water. Yeah. To make sure like there was no swimmers coming in towards base. >> Were they apprehensive? That's what I've read about. >> That's what I read. Were they >> Yeah. So yeah, it I uh participated in that once and I would never do that again. It was not fun. You know, you're swimming in San Diego um in the channel. >> Nope. Nope. >> You lost Turkey already? >> Nope. Big sharks out there. >> There is huge sharks out there. But anyway, even >> the dolphins will keep you safe. >> No, maybe. Maybe. That's maybe >> if you train them. >> Nope. Nope. >> But you know, you're swimming in there's diesel fuel because all the Navy ships. And then this dolphin just blast you out of nowhere with this device that they have on their snout. If that's called snout, I'm not I'm not a dolphin guy. But >> I think the rostrm is the technical term. >> Oh jeez. He >> I used to be a marine biologist. >> Do you know how to spell that? >> R O S T R U the writer. Yes. >> I can't even say that. I want to spell it. >> Uh wow. >> Okay. So, so they are apprehension dolphins. >> It's not necess They're marking They're marking the human. So, right, they hit you with this device. >> What are they doing in the meantime? They're just like hanging out down there like >> So, it's Oh, man. It's pretty crazy. They do this whistle thing, right? The dolphins jump into the boat. >> I swear to you, >> they jump into the boat. >> Yes. They have these special boats and it's almost like a bed in the back of the boat. They do special series of whistles. The dolphin jumps in the back of the boat, right? They give another whistle. The dolphin jumps into the water and does its thing like maybe protecting a base that's surrounded by water. >> Yeah. Hard to believe. It is. It is super impressive. >> And they could just leave any time technically. So they must >> Yeah. Because there's nothing >> like it or >> there's nothing holding them back. >> How do you I mean just give them fish. >> I don't know. That's above me. I have no idea. >> I would imagine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But sharks. Yes. >> Shark. I mean, you Yeah. >> I'm with Hey, listen. I'm with you. Yeah. And we can, you know, that's I was in the marine unit here and Yeah. It's uh >> Yeah. >> No. And I've told I've told other folks in Marine currently and past that if I ever go missing, just don't worry about it. >> I'm dead. >> Just let it go. >> Just the the the not knowing what's touching my feet is going to do me in. So yeah, >> unless you find like the cooler is missing and there's like a life fest missing, then maybe look for a little bit, but not that long. >> It's, you know, the one island that we'd use, uh, it's called San Clemente Island. It's just off the coast of California. They would fly us from San Diego on these little planes with the dogs and everything, right? All the equipment. We'd go out there for a couple weeks, >> but um, between Sandy or the coast of California and this San Clemente Island, it was it was 100% the path of where the great whites would swim through. >> Yeah. And yeah, it's uh Yeah, they had to get out there and swim at quite a bit. >> Yeah. >> So, >> even flying over it in a plane. I don't know. I bring a pistol in case the plane goes down so I can shoot myself. >> Yeah. You're in trouble. >> Yeah. No way. >> Yeah. That's I don't like sharks either. >> Jaws was a documentary. >> Oh. >> Um >> sharks are very misunderstood. You know, I have to stick up for them. >> You would? Yeah. >> You You let me know. You go talk to them and come back and see me. >> Okay. Educate them like the snakes. >> Yeah. Just like the snakes. >> Oh jeez. So, how what uh did you come from that that gig to PCSO? Right. >> Yeah. Right. From Yeah. So, I was I was halfway the through the process of um being hired with the San Diego Sheriff's Department, but you know, kind of really wanted to come back to this coast. >> Uh but I know one thing for sure. I wasn't going back to the snow and the gray of Pittsburgh. There's just there's no way. Not after living in California, like the perfect weather. >> Yeah. It's amazing. playing volleyball with Tom Cruz. >> Well, that's exaggerating a little bit. I never did that. >> But yeah, but yeah, you get it. It was It was amazing. It was amazing out there. And uh my son still lives out there, so I will I'm actually going next week. >> Oh, nice. >> I'm going to head out there. >> San Diego. >> Yeah. He actually came out to visit me and then he ended up getting a contracting job. >> Nice. >> Uh with the Navy. >> He's training dolphins, isn't he? >> No, he's now he sets up uh these multi-million dollar flight simulators for pilots. Yeah, it's pretty cool. >> Hell yeah. >> Yeah. I'm real proud of him. He's he's he's doing amazing. But that's awesome. >> So, yeah, come back to the coast and uh come to Florida. Like, if it's not California, it certainly wasn't going to be Pennsylvania >> just because of the weather and stuff like that. I threw my snow brush away and I had planned on never using it again. >> So, I came to Florida and there was really no specific area that I needed to live. So it was wide open and I checked the east coast, the west coast >> and then kind of I had a lot of job offers and um you know decided >> PCSO >> over over NASA SWAT. >> It was a NASA I didn't Yeah, I didn't even know that was a thing but uh it's a it's a real thing. >> Do they wear space suits and run around? That'd be kind of cool. >> They fight aliens. >> I think so. They'd have to. >> That's the space force. >> Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, >> that'd be cool. But yeah, that was kind of a a job offer. Um but uh along there was I had quite a few actually. It was I was very fortunate um to come to Florida and have really solid. Yeah. Solid job. >> We're lucky you landed here. >> Yeah. >> What made you pick us? >> Oh man. So initially, right, I called from California to here and I don't even know how I heard about the sheriff's office, but I did and I called and they kind of basically told me to go pon. So um because I wasn't certified in the state of Florida. >> Got They're like, "Hey, talk to us when you become certified." >> Uh, so I left California. Um, I did have another job offer somewhere down south. Can't remember exactly. >> But, uh, came from California, came here, and then had my switch over of taking my Pennsylvania uh, certification and made it into Florida. It's like a two-eek course. >> Yeah. Nice. EOT or whatever. >> Yeah. EOT, high liability, basically >> equivalency of training. >> Yes, >> there it is. Sorry. Yeah, I did I did the thing. Yeah, she she could probably spell that, too. >> Show off. >> Um, so, uh, where'd you start off when you got when you got here? >> Obviously in patrol like everybody else. >> Patrol. Yeah. Which I loved it. Like, you know, people >> Oh, I don't want to go to the beach. I don't want to go beach. Uh, I want to go to the beach. Like, I was a cop in, you know, 20°ree weather in in in the winter time wearing gloves and hats and, you know, leather jackets. No way. Send me to the beach, please. >> And I really enjoyed it. So I was float uh for a while but then landed in St. Pete Beach >> and worked there for quite some time. >> Loved it. Phenomenal people. What I did learn uh here I mean in state of Florida but even specifically more here in Penelis County >> people are real big supporters of law enforcement here which kind of >> it was refreshing for you. >> Oh amazing like I was like what's this? This is this is weird. But yeah, just super friendly, super nice and you know, it was hard to get out a restaurant to even pay for your own food because people are always offering, "Hey, let me take care of that for you." And >> I find it funny or ironic that so many people are coming here, but your description up in Pennsylvania is that there was a hundred people applying for any of those spots for people to hate you. Is that >> I mean, I'm not saying they hated you, but like it's just there is a huge difference. >> Yeah. >> Huge difference. Like I I and people will tell you that that come from other agencies like people actually like us here. Yeah, they do. They like law and order here and then we have it here in Florida. >> That's I I was just curious. I was like they're all putting in is like are they like throwing rocks at you? >> Well, >> well, it's the it's the weather, too. Everybody loves the weather up here. >> Correct. >> You're in a better mood here, right? Because you get to see the sun. There's plenty of times up north like you don't see the sun forever and it's just Wow. >> It's it's Yeah. It takes a toll on you. >> Yeah. I have no desire to live anywhere else. >> But yeah, started there. Uh St. Pete Beach Patrol. Uh from there uh the school guardian unit which is uh is is a great unit. I love that. >> Uh I corporal there >> first a deputy then uh then corporal. >> Talk about talk about that a little bit. Um you know we've had the sheriff on we've talked about the guardian program. It's come up a little bit but but from your perspective >> Yeah. No, it's 100% phenomenal. Right. So basically every school um has an armed either guardian in it or law enforcement uh police officer. Um >> the good guy with a gun, >> good guy with a gun. Good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun. Simple as that. Um and that's kind of the theory, but um been involved with that program. I go to different schools uh make sure >> because you're just checking on them. Y >> because they're they're technically employees of the Penelis County School Board. >> Yeah. It's a whole but we train them. So it's >> and and equip them >> and equip we train and equip them. Yeah. >> So this is in so the the elementary schools and the private schools, right? Correct. Just there's just for the guardians, right? And then our deputies or the city officers are in middle school and high school, right? >> Yes. Okay. >> Yes. So I mean it's still there's I mean I used to know how many but there was there's quite a bit. >> But uh basically go check on the guardians, uh check on the school because we would have our input like hey listen that security door, you know, we should probably have a camera here. So, we would mark that up and send that information out. And uh it it's it was a great job. I loved it, >> honestly. >> The and the Guardians, I know I know Ashley, you're interested too in the uh training for them because I I think there's this this big perception that they're just glorified security guards, you know, when they really go through quite a bit of of firearms training more so than what officers get like in the academy as what as I understand it. >> 100%. it it's their training is very in-depth and very involved. I think we have probably one of the the bigger programs in the state of Florida because there's x amount I don't know the specifics right but there's x amount of hours that are required we are above that >> right so we do train uh guardians from >> other uh other counties too >> right we currently are doing that but um there is a lot of shooting there is a lot of shooting they do and I don't know I can't remember how many hours they do >> I think I think whatever it is whatever it is it always jog my memory because there's like it I mean the sheriff always says it exceeds what you get in the police academy before you get hired somewhere. It's it's extensive. >> Absolutely. >> Um and and yeah, it's it's you know in and just for for our listeners um the guardian program is statewide. Uh it is such that in other counties you could make it doesn't have to be necessarily the the uniform person. You could just have other school staff you designate. But in Penllis County and and other counties, the school board can decide how they want to >> facilitate the program. So here in Penllis, we have this setup which and that's cool. Cool. The perspective you got kind of seeing that side of it. >> Oh yeah. And it's getting to know all of them. >> Yeah. Get to know them and then you know there is some plain clothes ones that scattered throughout but mainly you know they have a uniform but um it's extensive training. >> I think some of the private schools might do the plane. Yeah. They >> do because in the public schools they're yellow shirts. >> Yellow shirts. Can't miss them. >> The bumblebees. >> Bumbles. Yes. But, you know, they do they do it all. You know, active asalent, deadly force decisionmaking. >> That's what I was going to ask. Yeah. It's not just target shooting. They're they're deciding when to shoot, what evaluating circumstances. >> Yeah. Uh we put them through a lot. It is. And, you know, keep in mind, you know, there is a lot of mil ex-military and ex police, you know, retired police. >> Uh but we do also just train, you know, somebody could have been like a a shoe salesman the week before and now he's a guardian. So, now we have to train those, you know, we have to train them from scratch. Mhm. >> Uh which is a lot for people, you know, we see, you know, like I said before, you either have it or you don't. >> And it's not much different with that either. >> So we we either have something to work with to build on that foundation or you don't. >> And they got to accept that and and people do. >> Yeah. It's a pretty successful program. I think >> it is >> better. I mean, we don't have enough cops to do it. So, >> no. No, >> it's, you know, law enforcement unfortunately, you know, it's everyone's struggling, >> you know, to uh fill positions. >> Yeah. I'd say it's the next best thing though. >> Yes. >> Um, so then from Guardian, you ended up you did some time in Marine. >> Yes, sir. >> Despite the sharks, >> the guy that that loves the water. >> Yeah, that's that's interesting. >> Yeah. So, uh, got a call, you know, uh, basically, hey, what do you think about the Marine uh, unit as as the coral? I was like, I don't even like the water. There's sharks in there. >> No boating experience from Pennsylvania. >> Zero boating experience. I mean, like Concrete Jungle, that's where I'm from. Concrete jungle. Literally, I think my dad had a boat like on a lake, >> you know, like a 5 horsepower boat, but not the same thing. But yeah, literally no experience. And, you know, basically I was told is we're not worried about that part of it. You can learn all that. >> Uh we want you, you know, for for other reasons. >> So, um took that position. uh was there for like two years, but honestly out of my I think this is roughly my 31st year in law enforcement, definitely the most challenging. 100%. >> Really? >> Yeah. I mean, K9 is extremely hard. Do not get me wrong. And K9 guys are super dedicated. Like you have to because >> you know when we're done, you know, when patrol is done working, they go home, they're done, right? You go home with and you're a canine, you still have to take care of that dog and it's a lot of it's a big responsibility, >> right? Um, so you know, I I take that job and um I learned a lot. It was it was it was definitely challenging, you know, because not only the admin part of it because as an admin, you're doing a heck of a lot more than most corpals. You're doing a lot >> as is the sergeant there. He's doing a heck of a lot more than most sergeants. But um and then to learn the other aspect of it, operating boats and understanding the waterways and you know, the currents and the laws like >> it's a lot, >> you know, and it's >> probably um you know, law enforcement in general like you're doing a lot of things at once, right? You're driving your patrol car, you're listening to the radio, you're watching the computer, you know your your boss is probably calling you on your cell phone to ask you questions, right? And so it's multitasking. Well, take that and just multiply it by so much as a operator of a boat in marine because you know you're worried about your boat, right? The wind direction, where are the currents going now? You're stopping another boat. You're responsible for that boat because now you're tied off to that boat, right? >> Well, are we drifting this way? Well, I know we're drifting that way and that's like uh 18 inches of water. Like, we can't do that. >> It's a lot. Mhm. >> It really is super challenging, but you know, looking back on it, I'm very grateful for it because I learned a lot and I could I feel comfortable like am I the best? Absolutely not. >> You know, am I comfortable with it? Yes, 100%. I could go and jump in a boat right now and I'm like, okay, I'm good. >> Mhm. >> You know, which is this is nice because I'll do that every once in a while here. I belong to a boat club. I did learn I would never own a boat. >> Yeah. >> Smart decision. >> That's smart. Really smart. >> It is unreal. >> Boat club or friends that have boats? Just the expense and how things break. It's just Wow. >> And but that it was very it was it's a lot. They do a lot just like K9. >> They do. Yeah. They do a tremendous amount. >> Yes. >> So um now the red shirt >> Yeah. >> made to training finally. Had you ever been in any kind of training role before up until this point? Okay. >> Yeah. So you figure like So I've been a canine instructor for quite some time, >> right? >> Um >> and that's training people as well as dogs when you're canine instructor. >> Yeah. police and civilian because I did a lot of civilian work too, but um police dogs and then obviously with the military we spoke about already. >> Uh I did as an instructor. Um >> and then you know you know especially with the SEALs >> coming here and then they did ask me earlier on in my career here do hey you want to come to I was like I just it's not it's not the time because training the SEALs the way we train the SEALs and then training deputies that's two different things >> right? So, I needed to kind of do a few other things before I got to that, but um >> yeah, it's I I love it. I'm I'm really happy. >> So, can you just break down a little bit, you know, how the how training is structured and and kind of the work that you guys do? >> Yeah, that's I mean, there's a lot. We do a lot. We're we're super busy. Um you know, everybody has their specialties. um you know as far as training we have we have a lot of different uh programs that we run not just you know inservice right so we got the deputies that come through for 16 hours every year we have to put the whole agency through it uh so we run that uh we have recruits that are coming through right because we got people retiring all the time we have people quitting doing whatever they may do uh so we have to replace those bodies and uh so we train the recruits also >> I think this year I think we're on our third we're coming up on our third or fourth recruit class this year. So it's been a busy busy year and same thing with the guardians. We've added quite a few guardians this year. >> Uh so we're responsible for that also. In addition, you know, we have uh the sheriff citizens academy. We have the the new right the new sheriff family academy. >> We have CCW. >> What does it stand for? >> So I mean so the CCW, right, is concealed carry. Well, we we deal with the concealed carry permit, right? So we teach the class, >> right, >> that gives you >> which which civilians can go to. >> Oh yeah. No, so you know the public right here here's a plug for it, right? It it's free first off, right? It's free if you live in the county. >> Uh it's often grant funded. So not only is it free, we will give you the ammo to go through the class and you will shoot uh 50 rounds basically with our class. Now, we're not required to do that, but when we put this program together, we we wanted to exceed anybody else's, right? There's plenty of CCW classes that you go to, and people will tell me like, "Oh, yeah, we we got one bullet and we went down range and we put a bullet into a bucket and no, congratulations, you know, right? You can get your CCW." That is not what we do. >> Uh it can be the four to five hour class, right? We do a uh >> the legal side >> legal the legal side, which is phenomenal, right? that's taught by our our attorneys. That could be an hour, hour and a half, just depends on how long, you know, it goes with with questions and then a 50 round course and then we have a PowerPoint in between with just tons of information. Um, but you know, listen, we know you do not have to have one here in in Florida, but yet >> it's packed every time. So, it's pretty cool to see that people the public want to be educated on the firearms, which is very important, right? You know, people take it serious, which they should. Yeah, that's what I was wondering with people, you know, you don't have to do that anymore. Why should they? Like, what is there what is the I mean, I know you just explained that there's a legal part and everything, but when it comes to the training, what is something that you'll miss when I just shot something in a barrel, you know, instead of just, you know, practicing 50 rounds and considering the background and things like that? Yeah. And we talk about that like like you said Ricky before. It's like consider like if you it's a bad day if you have to pull pull your gun out and point it at somebody. It's it's a bad day, right? But you know, do you know what's beyond your target? Like hey, you know, I got my gun out. I'm pointing on this suspect, but that's a kid, you know, that's an elementary school behind you. Oh, >> and the legal stuff is important, too. >> The legal stuff is very important >> because it's educated. it, you know, people have to take it seriously and and unfortunately, you know, regardless of how you feel about it, the way the laws are going, you know, take I I think they kind of for some people it it might reduce the serious because, oh, I can just throw, you know, I'm going to the part of town I don't, you know, I don't feel safe. I'm I'm going to bring my gun. But like with no training or anything, you know, whatsoever, right? >> And that's not I don't think I think that's bad, you know, in general. I think you should I don't know anybody that's a serious firearms person that doesn't love to train and and all those things. So, >> it's important perspective stuff because the way it's portrayed and the way people can, you know, be led to believe it is like they don't take it as seriously because you don't have to, right? >> So, it's cool to, you know, if you're going to do it, you know, take our class or find find other reputable classes that, you know, there's a lot of great classes out there and even if you're not going to carry, just take the class. >> Yeah. There's plenty of people that come through that CCW class. One, they don't even have intentions of getting their CCW permit. Just want to learn about They just want to learn like every I will ask you know just just for education like hey why are you here >> and to know who you want to avoid out in public. >> Oh yeah, >> right. >> That could be that could be too. And we get you know we get a lot of questions there with like hey we have open carry now >> like I can't wait to do that. Really? >> Mhm. >> Okay. I mean yes you can do that. That's you're right. But you know you go to the 7-Eleven right and uh you're there maybe you have your gun in the open and maybe like listen there's some bad people out there in the world, right? It's that's why we're here. That's why we'll always have a job. But, you know, maybe this bad guy comes in and says, you know, he doesn't have a gun, but you do. >> Mhm. >> Can he overpower you? Does he come by surprise and take your weapon? >> And how much time do you all spend training our deputies about weapon retention? Oh, yeah. >> With their weapon retention designed holsters. >> Exactly. Right. That's a great point. And then, you know, generally, you know, people just have these flimsy plastic holsters or where there's just a snap or a button that can easily be removed, you know, plus people getting overpowered. Now this person may have been, you know, maybe um robbing the 7-Eleven, but now he has a gun because he's seen your gun in open. >> You know, maybe it's better to have it concealed. >> I'm just saying. >> But, you know, listen, people are going to do what they want to do and like just educate yourself. >> That's all. >> Yep. CCW is a great way to do that. >> It is 100%. I think training is one of those things like the the concept of training everybody's very familiar with but when it comes to a large agency you know realizing that we have dedicated trainers like and I remember you know explained to the public even through the sheriff citizens academy which Jim you are our guy you are late for training and you do an amazing job with them but um you know it's it's like yeah we we have full-time deputies that all they do is train and we have the law enforcement side and the correction side because there is just that much going on >> right and we have quite a bit I talking to other agencies, we have a nice size training compared to others. For sure, we do. And and honestly, it could be bigger. We really could because the amount of stuff that we do, we could certainly have even more people, but that's in any division, right? >> Um, so we, you know, we handle all that. And then each individual guy kind of we can we can teach anything, but we have guys that specific to certain things like, hey, he excels in this area and that area, right? So, I I took on responsibility of like the taser training and uh the new uh virtual reality training through Axon. Uh so, that's kind of like my thing right now that that I do. Um >> master taser. >> Here we go. Yes. Correct. >> Master. >> Yes. Yes. Just went to school recently for that. Uh I was an instructor, so now master taser instructor. So, >> I feel like it's an official title. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's uh Yeah. I'm waiting to get my business. Okay. Wow. >> Yeah. I got to get the sheriff to sign off and have that I got to get that on my business card. Sir, >> is that m master corporal or corporal? Master >> no, we do not have that. But if you can talk to sheriff about that, be awesome. >> We'll work on it. I We always say everybody gets one ask while they're on the show. Is that is that going to be yours? >> Taser master gym. >> Yeah, that's that's a lot. That's a mouthful. >> Yeah. Talk about the taser, though. Our new tasers are amazing. >> Yeah. So, yeah. Cool thing about that is they picked our agency of I don't know how many to be exact uh very uh less than a handful of people agencies to test out the taser 10 which is the current model and uh so we were a test agency uh never a huge fan of taser my entire life but taser 10%. >> Yeah. >> What's what's different about it? >> Uh well it's it's a great tool. There is 10 um probes that are used, right? So you need two for a positive effect. Let's say that, right? There's a positive and negative. And you so you need two probes, but you have 10. You know, could you deploy a few more on someone if need be, right? Because some people pull those probes out so forth. But you also can use it on multiple people up to three people. >> So the old ones had a cartridge that just had the two. >> Correct. >> Two would shoot out. You missed with one, you're done. unload the cartridge, put the new cartridge in, and >> yep, it's over. So, this one is leaps and bounds better than than the Taser 7. You know, you have 10 probes. It comes out single shot each time. So, shot placement's much better. Has a this fancy laser on it. It has a flashlight on it. >> It's got some more ass behind it, too, when it's coming out. >> It's uh it's nasty. I This >> Don't Don't get tased, ladies and gentlemen. >> Do not get tased. I'm telling you, don't tase me, bro. >> Yeah. >> No, 100% not. Uh we went to the school there was people volunteering for it and I was absolutely not. Like it's I was thinking about it but no. >> Yeah. No way. >> You just use your imagination. >> Yes. Yes. >> And you you mentioned the the VR stuff which we we've covered a bit and and we'll cover some more. >> Um >> that's a I mean that it of course it's starting right now with Taser, but there's a lot of other you know VR training opportunities and things we can do. You know, just since I've been here, when I started, we had the I don't remember what they call it, but it shot back at you with little little wax balls. >> Oh, that was not ideal. >> Sure. That's not your personal license. >> Yeah. >> No judgment. >> No. Nope. We used to we used to do it with we used to do it with Citizens Academy. Um and then um then we have the the TI, the Titanium training system. Um but then of course, you know, with VR, I mean, the kids can play, you know, PlayStation with a VR, so let's let's use that for law enforcement. It seems like it's a really, >> you know, great tool. >> Yeah. As far as percentages go, you know, like you get older school guys that are just like stupid. It's a video game. But listen, I get that. But it's training. It's repetition, right? We know repetition is what it builds muscle memory >> and you can get a lot of repetition. Uh, repet >> repetition. We got you. It's been a long day. >> Can't spell that one either. >> A lot of brain injuries, too. >> Yeah. Um, so you know, and it and it's basically doesn't cost that much, right? Because if you're shooting the real probes, that's to be very expensive, >> right? And and there's situations that we can put you in in this virtual reality that, you know, we couldn't even think about doing practical. Yeah. >> Right. So, uh, it's been working out well. Um, people I would say probably high 90s percentage wise, people love it. So, and uh we've starting to get into some new stuff. There's a a handgun that we've been using. So, like that's kind of starting to come into play now. I know in the the near future there's going to be a rifle and we have uh two uh where now we're going to have the capabilities very soon. Matter of fact, probably tomorrow. Uh where two people can wear it and you can practice building clearing with it. >> Oh, wow. Interact with another producer. >> Yep. So, it's, you know, this is I think we're just scratching the surface with this. And I think there's >> there's going to be some amazing things happening with it. And again, we were I know this for sure, right? Uh we were the first on the east coast of the United States to start using the VR for training, right? I talked in this the school that I just went to. I talked to a whole bunch of agencies and some of them are like, "Oh, yeah, we have them. They're still sitting on the shelves collecting dust." >> And we've been using ours since pretty much the minute we got them. >> Yeah. Why? Why wouldn't you? >> I don't know. Um, it's it's a thing. It's it's a lot, >> right? >> I mean, with the with the tablet and stuff you got to use. I mean, it's complicated to learn, but I have to imagine once you like anything else, once you figure it out, >> it is. And a lot of agencies have like one or two deputies that handle it, but they also have it, like a specific IT person that's attached to them, and they figure out all the other stuff. Well, that guy's me, so I do it all. Um, and I don't mind like I like to learn that stuff, and it's good. M >> uh so like I'm the troubleshooter on that and um yeah I I I enjoy I enjoy teaching it. >> Really do. >> It's really cool. >> Yeah, it's and we're going to start probably using it for right the uh >> yeah when we when we can >> Yeah, that's kind of working those bugs out. Yeah, I think you know to show everybody that, >> you know, we're we're trying to be cuz really when you like it's hard to replicate >> the entire TR like >> you can like the decision-m is a great example like you know yeah you can you can replicate that but you can't really do it practically. I mean I know you you all still do live scenarios and stuff with recruits and things like that but you can't do it with the perfection and the precision that you can when it's just running the system. So it's it's always good for citizens academy to you know that's I mean with training you know we we spend for our citizens academy program we'll check that that plug as well um as a 10-week program nine of them are program weeks we have graduation but you know three of those nine weeks or a third of the program is spent you know with training and the you know use of force components are really the most impactful of the entire program because they're really kind of taking what they hear out there uh through the media and different things that have happened and and they're kind of putting that to practical use and go, >> "Well, that happened kind of quick and I think I made the wrong decision and I'm going to prison now um because I didn't have, you know, that training or that experience." So, >> it it's super important. I mean, that's one of the many reasons that I like, you know, being, you know, involved with that process because the public some some people, right, they have certain ideas about law enforcement and like, "Oh, why do why did he do that? Why shoot him shoot him in the leg?" Right? That's that's no no we we don't and this gives the me the opportunity to explain to that person like why how come we just didn't shoot him in the leg like no that's not what we do and this is the reason this is why right and then >> to take it even further is you know we'll put them in you know the TI room right the simulator room and then we'll run them through scenarios and then to see these people's reaction >> and they come and it's pretty cool to have them come back and be like >> wow >> right >> I'm going to prison or I just killed this person who pulled out a staple gun and it wasn't even a gun and I shot him. Right. >> So, it's shiny. >> Yeah, it was shiny. >> And he took it out fast, you know. >> Right. Right. So, you know, people see that law enforcement literally on a daily basis, probably hundreds of times, are making split-second decisions >> to save people's lives >> and those decisions change people's lives, right? >> And it's not easy. >> Well, and you just think back to, you know, the the LA fitness shooting. You had two opportunities to pull the trigger on the wrong person. and you know your training and instinct told you not to do that because I can guarantee if you did and there was that additional dead person or that additional injured person cuz they were shot by law enforcement. You know, you read people reading the oh well, you know, lack of, you know, lack of training, whatever [ __ ] right? >> And it's like this is this is why I mean, it's purely that human you're running on adrenaline and you have to which is what I just think is so impressive about training in general is that however it is, you all do it. Whatever sorcery it is that you use, not everybody has it, but you are successful with some people and somebody was successful with you because you had that instinct and that thought process. >> Yeah, for sure. And it's it's it is a process too, you know, and but you can see if you have something to work with right away. And if you do, then we pile as much we will pile stuff on top on top of people as much as we can to make them the best that they possibly can. >> And that's like in relation to recruits with the um like in-house training, the high liability stuff you guys do. >> Um I I assume that's kind of what you're talking about is some of those new guys. Um what like are is there anything that you're seeing with some of these recruits that are coming in right now that it's like you know they should be working on this before they come here >> right? Uh oo I like that question. Um >> banking. >> Yeah. Well, actually to answer that right, it's a couple twofold probably. One, physical fitness. Like listen, you know you're coming to us. You know it's going to be physical. Like that's part of your job. Like someone's life may depend on how you act or how physically capable you are to protect somebody. If you can't run a mile or if you can't do whatever a few push-ups or pull-ups or whatever it is, then I don't know, you need to rethink that. So, come to us being prepared is is certainly one thing. And the other thing that we see is and this is not with everybody. This is just general like general conversation and just having a conversation with somebody with some younger people. It's difficult or they find it difficult. Why? Probably because of cell phones, right? Everybody's used to this texting. >> Oh, you mean just regular conversation with a human being? >> Absolutely. No, no, it's it's it's a problem. >> I thought you meant like deescalation. No, you just mean >> Well, no. >> I mean, that's a part of it for sure. >> You got to be able to talk. >> You you like this job this job's all about how you talk to people, >> right? You You can be the toughest guy in the world or the best shooter. None of that really matters because a lot of times you can just talk to people. If you treat them good and you talk to them, you can pretty much get this job done easily. Now, there's of course people that don't care, right? And those are the people that we need to prepare be prepared for physically, right? Through, you know, training, taser, and having some sort of physical ability, whether it's, you know, ground fighting or stand up fighting. >> Um, and shooting of course. Um, >> so I I think those are the two things that we see the most. Um, but you know, it it's kind of crazy sometimes like I'm just like, "Oh, this newer generation." Like it's I'm the old guy, right? Because I we talked about I started out I was 19. I remember sitting in in in rooms going to training going I am the youngest kid here. Like holy crap. Now it's the opposite. >> I'm the usually the oldest guy and I'm 53. I'm you I look around I'm like >> wow my kids are older than some of the people I'm training now. And it's kind of weird to be honest with you. But every once in a while you get some really outstanding younger people and then like I'm like, "Okay, >> this is this is good. We're going to be okay, right? We're going to be okay." The selection process >> um of picking the right people that that's not easy, right? And HR does the best job they can with it. They're they're doing a good job. >> Um because that's the foundation. We keep talking about the same thing again. I need a f we need in training. We need a foundation that is good that we can build upon to make the best deputy that we can. Mhm. >> But it starts with foundation. >> You're talking about, you know, I think I mean it's funny. We all joke I mean I've heard deputies joke with oh you know the old guy like you know hey these kids you know like it's the whole thing but but there's a lot of truth to it too and I think it it needs to be talked about and there needs to be that because >> it is you know generations come up different experiences you know whatever. Um and I think I mean we this will be a whole episode talking about why you know the turnover hap is happening now and you know whatever people retiring you know coming out of the military all those people are retiring now you know all that stuff but not it doesn't negate the fact that we still need people that are like you or some of the other you know deputies that have had experience have experienced these things >> because those are the ones that are going to freeze up. >> Yes. when something happens and maybe it's, you know, they're not working in the heroin capital of P, West Pennsylvania, whatever it was, but you know, what are how do you think that you can break through? I mean, because you have these kids that, you know, your experience is your experience. You can't do anything about it. It's not a >> it's not a handicap necessarily, but it's like, hey, I just I just haven't experienced that. Like, how do you train? How do you instill that in a recruit? >> How do you talk to him about it? >> Right. So I mean putting them through scenarios like the VR thing like we talked about but >> even more importantly with that than pushing them as hard as we can in like real life scenarios. So, in their in-house training, we do a lot. There's a lot of deadly force decision-m uh that we'll put them through and we can see, you know, like, okay, well, he gets it, but maybe we just need to tweak this a little bit. And then we'll work with those >> those people to give them all the tools and all the knowledge >> that they need to make better decisions, maybe quicker decisions. >> So, you're on that you're on that like that individual level like sitting there talking about your recruits like I mean I know you're talking you talk about them and evaluate them, but you're saying, "Hey, this one needs this, this one needs that." and you're able to kind of identify what that is. >> Absolutely. Our training unit, listen, again, 32 years of being a cop, the training unit, like currently, we hear from other people, so don't even take it from me, right? This is a phenomenal group of guys. The experience, uh, the specialties that we have, it's it's amazing. Like, gone are the days where like, h, you know, I don't know, I have three years experience or four years experience. Let me be in training. >> Why? >> Like, honestly, you I'm I'm just going to be direct. you haven't experienced enough, >> right? Three, four, five years. No, you haven't. >> Right? You need people that have a lot of experience, right? Because we need to pass that information along. Not that we can't get out there and do it because I promise you, there's not a guy in that unit can't that can get right back out on our street and do it, >> right? We can, but we need to pass along that information. Uh, so proper police work is done, you know, throughout the years coming. Mhm. >> So, you were talking about recruits and getting their physical fitness up, and that's something I've talked about with with HR before, that they're seeing that >> at the academy, too, like that these um people >> these recruits just think that they can just kind of breeze through it without really preparing. >> Um, and I'm wondering like where is that coming from? If they just have this image of like an overweight cop in their mind, they're like, you know, like my BMI is great. I'm going to be fine. it's not going to be a thing. >> Um, and so I'm curious like what all is involved in inservice? Like what do our deputies do every single year? >> Right. Yeah. I mean, and you're 100% right. Like we I don't I I just I don't get it. Like I'm not sure the answer. We will get people So often I'll volunteer to help out with the new hire assessment. So that's where they come here and do the whole running thing and jumping and everything. And people will come and I think they have to run six laps. They'll come and they'll be done after one lap. Like, wait a minute. I I don't understand. You knew that you have to be ready for this, but yet you come and you can only do two push-ups. Like, we gave you this information. You should know. Prepare yourself. >> Yeah. >> Um I don't I don't know. I can't even answer that. I If somebody can figure it out, let me know. Um so, that was what was the other part? uh is just >> what do we what do they do in in service? Yeah. To get together we'll get through this. Um >> so in service every year >> I got brain injuries too apparently. >> Yes. Um >> this is this is for the new recruits or every year they do. This is for every year because because I think I don't know but I think that these recruits have this perception that of the overweight cop that eats donuts all the time and sits in their cruiser all day but that's not what's like what the inservice and what's expected of our deputies at least here >> right yeah every year um every deputy has to go through our PAT test >> which consists of an obstacle >> stands for >> physical >> physical abilities test. >> Yes. Okay. >> Is that right? >> I think so. Sounded good. >> I forget if it's abilities or agility, but it's abilities for sure. >> I think it's abilities. >> I do it on social >> because there's nobody there's not a lot of people passing the agility test. >> Let's go out and do some yoga. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I would feel that for sure. Um, so it it's an obstacle course. Um, it's timed. Uh, you have x amount of time. If you don't complete it, then you're not going any further, right? You could put on light duty until you can pass that test. So, it consists of a run, you're jumping over a wall, um weaving through some obstacles, a low crawl, you have to pull a sled, uh whatever, let's call it 30 feet. Uh you have to do that and um >> like 100 pound sled or 150 lb. >> Yeah, it's like between >> like rose bud. It's a it's >> heavy like simulating a body basically, right? >> That is an old school reference. >> That is an old school reference. You should hear the cartoons she still watches. >> Oh boy. Yeah, >> I do a reference every once in a while. I didn't get to even talk about it, but like with we talked about young kids and then I'll always I give my speeches or whatever and always I'll pick on one somebody it's like 21 or 22 like hey what's a Rolodex >> and they'll be like oh oh that's a watch like >> not a watch >> that's a Rolex not a watch. >> So we we have our things we do with them but I mean so there is a level of fitness that they have to pass that test as simple as that. If you don't, then uh you know, you're not you're not going to go forward. You're going to be on like duty in duty until you can pass that. >> Do I think there should be more? I do, but like that's just that's been my like my whole life. Like I I like that part. Some people don't, and that's fine, but I I like that part. >> Um >> you got to be in shape for this job. It's common sense. It's simple as that. >> What else do you do in in service? Because it's not just the PAT. >> No, no, no. Pat, uh >> because it's like 16 hours. Is that what you said? the shoot, drive, and >> everything. Uh, well, yeah, that's going to be added, right? Um, >> the shoot. Yeah. Or driving. >> Driving. Yeah. So, uh, CPR, um, baton, the ASP, um, DT every year, some sort of defensive tactics that we'll pick and choose, some things that we want to do, maybe some handcuffing, right? The taser, the VR. Uh, and then day two is shooting. So, they have to be proficient shooting their their weapons, whether it's their the Glock 21 that's issued or the sheriff allows us to have 9 millimeter uh weapons. Also, there's a list uh a lot of people switching over to 9 millimeter, especially red dot, that's kind of like the big thing right now. It's almost like the cheat code. >> We have a lot of people switching over uh which, you know, if you look across the board across the United States, military and police, everybody's switching to 9 millimeter red dots. >> Uh and there's a reason why it it works. Mhm. >> And I'm a dummy, but that's like when you have that little guide that has it'll like show you where you're aiming specifically like precisely. >> Yep. A red dot that basically wherever that red dots at, that's >> Yeah, but it's only visible in the guide. Like it doesn't go onto the >> It's not a laser. It's not a laser, right? It's inside the optic. >> But, um, it's a game changer for law enforcement. You know, it both eyes can be open. So, what's that mean? Right? Both eyes are open. You're taking in more information, right? Because generally when you shoot a gun, right, you got one eye closed >> and you're losing all that u information because that eyes closed. Well, now with this, both eyes are open. You can see so much more. >> So that and that's, you know, clearly obvious. That's super important. So they will qualify with their handgun. They have to qualify with a shotgun and their uh rifle. Here at uh Penelis County, uh we issue uh patrol rifles to everyone. Now, that's not across the board like other there's other agencies here in Florida. They do not do that, but they are required to have a patrol rifle. So, they have to qualify with that. And then also less lethal. We have the U beanag rounds and we have the pepper ball launchers and everybody has to qualify with that. And then we sprinkle in some other stuff like this year for example is breaching. We'll do some breaching and we'll do some shield work where you're holding a shield and you're you're shooting at a target with u with one hand basically. You're holding a shield. Yeah, that was going to be my next question. Is it like is it the same thing every year or is it kind of more dynamic or kind of base it on what's what people are seeing like in their deputies or or >> Yeah. No, it's a good question. There's certain things that we have to do every year. >> Yeah. >> Shooting of course, CPR, ASP. Um the but there's we mix it up. So like next year it's going to be completely different. Like we started talking about we have the the new driving pad >> and so we're going to start doing a lot of driving stuff. So half of day two is going to be driving >> which is awesome because you know what do cops do >> all day long >> all day long they drive they drive right >> uh so we're going to have that next year but we change it up there's always the qualifications there's always certain things that we will do but we do change things >> cool >> so >> yeah and it's cool to be able to do that because you can you know there could be and I know this has happened before I mean because we all talked about I mean there's been an incident >> and it's like hey let's add some of this let's do some of this or some of that which really you know keeps it fresh and it makes it more interesting for the members because you don't want to do the same, you know, thing. >> Um I don't know if you can talk about it, but I know it's coming. Um speaking of driving, >> uh is kind of re re uh programming everybody on PIT. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah, we're we're working on that. Yeah. >> Um that is coming very soon actually. >> Uh probably 2026 is what we're looking at. Uh we got a couple different tactics that we're working with and we're trying to figure out that whole thing. um working currently on policies. >> Mhm. >> And uh procedures on that, but that that's going to be something different that we've never done. >> And I think you know so pit the precision immobilization technique like it was developed a long time ago and really hasn't changed. >> Um but cars have changed which is which is the problem and and a lot of people may not realize like there'll see it on TV or whatever we're just going to stop the car. We're going to pit it. It's going to crash. Well, that really wasn't ever the intent of it. The intent of it is you spin the car around and cars that are carbureted um you know when they get spun like that they they shut off um for a variety of different reasons but that's what happens but today's cars you know most of them you know not being they're fuel injected they're direct injection whatever you spin them out nothing happens they're ready to to keep on going so >> work on a test facing you now direction >> well not working now if you get the Tesla wet it might explode but yeah so um but uh but no so it you know just really trying to actually disable the vehicles now is what? And it's and it's just cool because I'm I'm excited to hear that we're that y'all are working on it because it's another example of like, >> hey, I know this is the status quo, but this this is like isn't working. And you know, most of our stuff for the most part when we're there's people that, you know, they're it's low speed. It's dumb stuff, you know, on going down a side road or whatever you want to stop them. It's not the interstate or some of the stuff that FHP has to deal with. >> I mean, how fast can you really go in Penel County, right? You know, most densely populated kind in the state of Florida. Like we have a a red light, a traffic light every 20 ft. >> Yeah. >> Right. So we have to adapt our tactics, >> right? Can't just >> And so, but the idea being is just, you know, boxing the car in, stopping the car in some other way other than just spinning it expecting it to stop because the other piece too is you'd spin it and then because we've done some pit stuff with training over the years, but you know, you spin it and then you kind of hang back, but instead it's, you know, let's we're going to spin it, but we're going to, you know, we're going to stop on it. >> Yeah. And it's it's pretty cool that you brought it up because we were actually just we were practicing it last week >> where you know we would you know pit the car and then we were figuring out positioning for the other cars. How many cars do we need? Where do they need to go to stop that vehicle from going away and and you you nailed it like with the technology of new vehicles like it's not a thing. It's not shutting off. No. >> If anything you're trying to pit this car and the computers in that person's car is fighting you because like oh right we're starting traction control and all that stuff. Let's apply the brake on this side. So we have you have to come up with different tactics >> and I think and I think that I mean obviously shooting is the thing we hear about you know but I think driving is such an underappreciated >> skill and tactics to it because you know shooting is again it takes skill. It's you know whatever but you can train for the same you know scenarios for the most part like you got to be mindful of who's behind who you're shooting at, what's around those things. But the same thing applies to driving. >> Oh yeah. you know, like you can train this all day long in our big ass parking lot where we do our driving, you know, essentially what the driving pad is. But the other factors you have to think about when you're, you know, trying to stop a car um that is driving dangerously or that is authorized for pursuit and >> all the factors that come with that is the road wet, you know, what's around it. So, >> I'm looking forward to that. I we're going to cover that a little bit because I think it's I think it's really cool. >> It's like I want a drone for that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I was told this a long time ago whether it's true or not. I don't know. uh police law enforcement drive backwards more >> than pe civilians drive forward. >> And I I I can see that because you think about it like a police officer like our shifts are 12-hour shifts. Those guys are kind of driving for 12 hours. It's a lot. And then like I said before, you're looking at the computer, you're looking at your cell phone, you're looking at multiple cell phones, you're, you know, >> there's a lot happening. >> There is, you know, then some people have the the 911 on their computer where they're getting the information before it's even dispatched. live 911. >> The ax on camera cameras going off cuz it's scanning plates like there is >> that's why we encourage people to you know well it's it's you're able to go on a ride along if you do citizens academy and it's like just just take it all in and just sit there and look at the things even just sitting at a traffic light the things that the deputies are doing. >> It's eye opening. >> Yeah. It's it's wild and then how that impact I mean you know imagine imagine responding to LA fitness shooting when live 911 is a thing. >> Oh man. Yeah. So that's ramping you up too. You know, it's it's crazy the technology that's there. But it's important also obviously we've talked about to get everybody trained up on it. >> Absolutely. And our technology we have here at this agency is >> second to none. >> Yeah. Good luck trying to find somebody that's even close to us with that. >> So we um appreciate you coming on. >> Sure. We always try to give everybody an opportunity and you you've said a lot of great things I think that people need to hear, but we always say, "Hey, you know, what is something that the member that members of the public need to know or should know that would make your job easier?" >> Oh, easier. I mean, I got a couple things with that. I mean, so be a good witness, >> right? Maybe don't intervene. I'm not saying like, you know, sometimes maybe you have to, but like be a good witness. Get us good information, right? if if it's a vehicle or something, get us a description. Get a get us a plate. Maybe like, hey, this is who's driving, this is a description of it. Um, so I I think that's super important, you know, especially nowadays with how our laws have changed here with CCW, right? Open carry, we got the whole thing going on, right? So, people need to be careful with that. Um, and the other thing I think a takeaway that people really need to know about law enforcement and it's really it's it's good here in in Florida because people are huge supporters of law enforcement in Florida. That's why we have people coming from all over the United States to be a cop here like or be, you know, be a deputy here or even being cops and other agencies. Um, >> you can still be a cop here, right? And I want people to understand one thing. Law enforcement, you know, there's people that will give up their lives to come save you. >> Mh. They need to remember that because, you know, you got somebody breaking into your house at 2 o'clock in the morning, you're going to call, well, you know, you call the police, you call law enforcement, you call the sheriff's office. We're going to be there. We don't know who you are, but those guys are willing to give up their life for you. >> People need to remember that. >> Yeah. So, >> it's very important. Very important. Yeah. What do you do for fun, Jim? >> Um, >> but we know you're not swimming. >> I'm definitely not swimming. >> Yeah. that Laura swims >> like in the open. >> I see. She's crazy. >> Like like like laps in the the open water for exercise >> at dusk. >> At dusk. >> Why? Why? Why? >> Cuz I work during the day. It has to be at dusk. >> Yeah. I will give you time off midday to go swim. >> Wait. Seriously? >> Yeah. Take your lunch on the water. >> We haven't uh I don't care. It's recorded. >> That's I mean that's impressive. Like I see people doing it. There's no way. >> Absolutely not. But um >> I really enjoy working out to be honest with you. Sounds crazy, but I do and I always have in my entire life. So, that's kind of um my release, you know, that's probably why I don't have to take medication because, you know, like seriously, like it keeps you healthy and keeps you your mind straight. And I I just really enjoy it. I I miss running. I used to run a lot, >> but man, as you get older, like it just takes your knees out, >> man. It beats you bad. And I I wish I could, but you know, there's other other things that you can do to replace it, but I really enjoy that's that's kind of what I enjoy. >> Yeah. Good stuff. >> Yeah. Well, it's evident. >> Oh, thank you, sir. >> You look ripped. >> I'm not going to fight with you. >> Are you hitting on me? Especially the left bicep. >> Left bicep. Left biceps. The best one. >> Torn. >> Right one. Yeah. >> Don't I don't recommend tearing anything. >> It's not fun. >> Well, Jim, we appreciate you coming on. Uh, we really uh you were you were a target for a while. So, you've been a target before, it sounds like, but this is a target. >> We didn't steal. >> Yeah, we didn't shoot at you or anything. >> I'm ready, though, so we appreciate it. I can take any one of you. >> I guarantee you can promise. >> If anyone wants to get more of Jim, they can come to our sheriff citizens academy where he features prominently at least at least three days out there. So, >> he is our training leazison. >> Yeah, it's it's it's a great it's a great thing. >> Yeah, it's but it's important. It's great. I know the public enjoys it, but I know our members listen too and and to get some insight from training and maybe have some more respect for who's teaching them, who's in front of the classroom. Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's important. So Laura, if somebody wanted to give us feedback about this episode or just otherwise stay engaged with 56, how would they go about doing that? >> Uh, they could email us at let's 56pcset.com. That's ls56pcset.com. >> And we are on Instagram, uh, standalone at 56 podcast spelled out on Instagram if you want to keep up with us there. So uh, with that, thanks everybody for listening. We'll talk to you next time.