So, Shirley was working in a computer store in [music] 1985. And on August 3rd, uh, she was supposed to open up the store at 10:00 a.m. Uh, it looks like she stopped and and got a drive-through breakfast and pulled into the the store. She parked, it sounds like, where she always parked and [music] and, uh, somebody had come into the store. It looks like she probably got up to to meet them and she got attacked near the counter. She was stabbed multiple times. You're listening [music] to 56, a Panelis County Sheriff's Office podcast. I'm Ricky Butler with Laura Sullivan and Ashley Culie. And we are excited to have Detective Ron Charmer's back with us on 56. And he actually was our first guest ever. Kicked off the whole thing and helped us uh start this podcast. So, we're always happy to see you and have you back, Ron. Thanks for coming. Uh last time we talked about your career in Reno, how you got here to Penllis, and then we towards the end we kind of got into some cold cases. Uh, one of which y'all had just kind of blown the lid off of, which was the Opal Wheel case. You'd had an elaborate ruse and found a suspect and made an arrest. And since then, the case has really come to a full closure with sentencing recently. So, we're going to kind of recap that and talk about it, and we're going to get into some other cases that are heating up uh in the world of of cold case. We were wrapping up uh the Opal Wheel case kind of last time. You kind of had the big breakthrough. If you could, Ron, just kind of let's just walk through that case. um as briefly as you can so we can kind of get some of the new ones cuz that we've had a lot of coverage on this was an incredible case. Um really good stuff all around. So tell us about that case uh briefly. >> Let's started February 8th into the night morning of February 9th 1987. Opel Wheel uh was a 82year-old woman living over in the Leman area by herself. Uh somebody broke into her home. They cut the telephone lines. Um they came in through the rear door. It looks like they probably armed themselves with a knife. They confronted her in her bedroom and ultimately there was some form of a physical altercation that cost her her life. She was strangled and she was beat um during that fight. She was courageous enough to pull out a chunk of suspect hair and and those hairs were recognized even in 1987 before DNA. They were collected as potential evidence. Uh they were looked at microscopically against a lot of other suspects over the years. And then in early 2003, Mike Ring had submitted those for DNA. We came up with a DNA profile, but it never matched anybody. Uh, fast forward to 2021, we performed a genetic genealogy investigation on those hairs and ultimately identified uh one of three brothers as being the suspect. And one brother early on really kind of stood out. One was deceased, one was already exonerated. Uh, his DNA was already in the system. And uh so ultimately we met with him up in Mississippi. He was living in Mississippi and had a a quick interview with him and he denied knowing her, made several excuses for why he was not in that neighborhood at the time of the murder and for uh several years around the time of the murder. And obviously we knew that not to be true with the hairs. And ultimately we made an arrest on him and um he sat in our jail for a few years until we finally went to trial just a couple of weeks ago. And what was the result? >> Luckily, the jury saw that he was guilty. They took about an hour and a half to deliberate and find him guilty. It was very, very quick. Um, it was it was a very good case. The state attorney's office, you know, Molly Goodwill and Alex Bedaro prosecuted it. They >> they did a really good job. They put a lot of effort into it and I think they had a very compelling uh argument. They did a really good job presenting the evidence. And so, I think it it made it a little bit easier on the jury. But, you know, again, it's very thankful that the jury could see that case for what it was. And so, yeah, we're very happy with the outcome. It's >> a testament to everybody's work on it. I think >> is it hard to present a case like that when there's so much science that has to be explained to a jury? >> I think a little bit. Um, I think more importantly in that case is, you know, I mean, it was >> um what I guess we're talking almost 40 years. And so to be able to bring those witnesses into court and have them testify and be able to to recall things and and present those things and you know a lot of those people are a little bit past their prime, you know, 40 years later. And you know, so all those witnesses did a fantastic job. And uh I think that was really the challenges is is getting everybody there and and being able to present the evidence. >> Yeah. So, um, obviously that means a lot to I know she doesn't have a ton of family left, but there's still enough, you know, that are that it's got to be special for everybody that worked on a case to be able to bring that to a successful conclusion. Can you just talk about kind of just the the general mission behind what motivates uh your team and um and just what it means? >> Yeah, I mean, you know, in her case, uh her she was very close with her niece. She lived across the street from her brother and and their her brother and his wife's child was very close and she really was a champion of the case for many many years and and made sure that it wasn't forgotten at the sheriff's office. Um and and I'm happy that before she passed away, she knew that we had identified a suspect. Um she wasn't around for the arrest. Unfortunately, she passed in between, but uh she knew that we were going to make an arrest. We identified a suspect and then her daughter had really taken over for those last few years and she was present in court and she watched the entire trial and she was there for it and so it was impactful. There was a second victim that was very similar circumstances about 4 days later that has always believed to be related to the Opal Wheel case. Uh unfortunately we have not developed enough evidence to to charge him or anybody else uh for that case but her grandchildren were also in attendance and watched and they believe firmly that he's responsible for for their grandmother's murder as well. And uh so you know I've spoken with that family as well and and they are satisfied that Michael Epnus is going to spend the rest of his life in prison. And although he was not officially charged with their grandmother's case, they find um at least some peace in knowing that there's an accountability with who they believe killed their grandma as well. >> In that case, it was you said it was close by to to Opel's house or just similar circumstances. >> It was almost identical circumstances. 4 days later and about 7 miles apart. >> Okay. And you just can't you can't put them there. >> No. And really, you know, I'm very hesitant to assess responsibility until I can prove who it is. I certainly am not willing to rule anybody out or any circumstances out. Um, but there's a lot of similarities to it. And as a matter of fact, the second victim was attacked while she was in bed still. She never even got out of bed, which I think, you know, maybe attributed to the the fight that Opal Wheel put up is that the suspect, if it is one in the same, recognized that the first victim put up such a fight that he wasn't even going to allow the second one to get out of bed and just attacked her while she was still in bed. And uh, you know, so I I think there's a good chance that those are related, but again, we we're still u we've exhausted almost every item of evidence that we possibly can. We're still looking at a couple of other pieces of evidence just to make sure that there's nothing else there and and we won't rest until we've exhausted everything. But >> what what kind of life had he been living between the homicide and when you guys found him? >> Sure. >> Was he fine upstanding citizen or >> for the most part? I mean, he uh had left our area a few years after the murder took place. Uh he did get married, had children. Uh which is always interesting to me on those uh those individuals who have children in between being held accountable for serious crimes like that by all the councils. Children shouldn't existed if if they would have been arrested earlier on. And so that's always an interesting dynamic to me. >> Um but he had chased his uh he had some domestic issues with his wife. He had followed her out to California for a little while. And uh you know that relationship was not real good. He had been arrested a couple of times, but still nothing that had been serious enough to get him into the the national database, which is why our DNA never matched up. So, for the most part, uh he had some alcohol issues, some alcohol-related offenses, and some domestic offenses, but really nothing of of significance, and especially later in life, really nothing of significance that we're aware of at least. >> And and um there's a lot of really cool science uh behind this case. We got into that in our first episode. So, if you want to learn about centmorgans, >> centmorgans, yeah, >> uh, and all the science behind genetic genealogy, go back and give episode one a listen with Ron because we kind of took a a pretty, um, deep dive on it. But, um, there are a couple other cases I think that our our, you know, business is picking up on. You've been trying to work, um, a little bit on. Uh, and I just wanted to to we want to talk about those the best that we can. Um, I think a a a case that is uh is really um about to be red-hot is the Trener homicide uh from 1985. Um that was a case that we did talk about um the first episode, but u back to that scientific process that does take some time and you've been working that. So talk to us about uh the homicide of uh Shirley Badger Trener in ' 85. >> So Shirley um was working in a computer store in 1985. She was well ahead of the game. It was learn a bit computers up off of 19 up north north county and she only worked one day a week, but she genuinely uh had an interest in computers and so she liked to read about them, learn about them, and uh so she enjoyed working at this computer store. She worked on Saturdays only. And on August 3rd, 1985, uh she was supposed to open up the store at 10:00 a.m. Uh it looks like she stopped and and got a drive-through breakfast and pulled into the the store. where she parked it sounds like where she always parked and opened the store and uh put her breakfast out. The way the business was set up, it had kind of a front area where all the the software is on the wall and computers are there kind of the commercial side of it and then there was a middle section of the building which was a classroom. They had it set up with multiple computers and people could sign up and take computer classes and then the back part of the room was sort of an office and storage. And uh so she was in the classroom portion it looks like eating her breakfast and uh somebody had come into the store. It looks like she probably got up to to meet them and greet them and she got attacked near the counter. She was stabbed multiple times. Um and uh it appears that ultimately she collapsed near that counter and then the suspect appears to have drugged her to the back middle room to get her out of view of anybody passing by the storefront. Uh it looks like the suspect probably cut himself during the commission of that stabbing. There was a excuse me [clears throat] a pretty good blood trail throughout the store um that was inconsistent with her blood. You could see where the the person had gone and and locked the front door and switched the open sign to closed and went through the store in a few different areas. Really nothing was taken which was really unique. Um her purse was emptied out but some money was laying on the ground. The cash register was untouched. The owner of the store said nothing was missing and uh ultimately the suspect stole her car and fled the area in her vehicle. Uh later that night, her daughter happened to be in town uh to visit her mom, couldn't get a hold of her mom. The store was closed. Uh they ultimately filed a missing person's report. Uh the daughter was staying in Tampa and on her way back to Tampa, she as she's getting on Courtney Campbell Causeway, she sees her mom's car parked on the side of the road and so she notifies law enforcement. >> Wow. And that was about the time that uh the owner of the business had come back to the business and discovered Shirley murdered in the the middle area of the office. And so uh kind of two scenes going on at one time and really >> Yeah. And so that's sort of kind of what led up to everything. >> And that was on a Sunday. >> Saturday. >> But it was but it was the same day later the same day that her daughter discovered and then the owner came back to the store. >> Yep. >> That's luck with her spotting her car. Like what are the odds of that? Well, >> although I think there was some suspicion by some people that it wasn't luck. >> Yeah, I I think you know there was definitely the daughter had come over with a couple of male friends um to visit and so there's I think been some question about whether those males were involved and whether the daughter was involved uh it really to me although you know good detectives don't like coincidences this wasn't really that out of the normal. I mean they didn't drive through a Walmart parking lot and find the car parked in the parking lot. It literally is just right off the side of the road. uh you know at court the entrance to Courtney Campbell that anybody would have seen it as they're going over Courtney Campbell. She just happened to recognize it as her mom's car and again you know I I I try not to rule anything out. Everything's a possibility but I think the circumstances weren't such that it causes me great concern. Mhm. [clears throat] And then uh so the scene at the store, I think, did I remember? Do I have this right? That the sheriff was on scene that day as a as a deputy. Is that Am I thinking of a different case or is that this case? >> Yeah, I think you're thinking of a different one. I don't I don't think our sheriff was involved in this one that I can recall. >> There was one that that his name was >> What was the cold case that he was that >> those are some serial killers >> gotten run over a couple of times? Okay. I could not remember. Couldn't remember. But so that's that's interesting. So, multiple scenes going on at once. Um, and then obviously, so it sounds to me though like the evidence, the blood evidence that was not hers was was what kind of drew the most attention back then. There wasn't any evidence in the car that was an indicator an indicator or or what was the deal? >> Yeah. No, I'm not even sure they recognized the blood evidence as being suspect blood back in 1985. To be honest, there's really they swabbed it, they collected it, but not a whole lot was done with it until again about 2007, I believe, is when that blood was submitted. And it had degraded over time. And so, we got a partial DNA profile that's not COTUS eligible. We can't just enter it into CODUS and see who it belongs to. There's just not enough information. >> Um, but uh, yes, I'm not really sure. I mean, really, reading the reports, I'm not sure they recognized it. I don't know if they thought it was maybe uh blood that was dripping off of the victim that transferred onto the suspect or what, but it was fairly obvious that it was uh like I said, you can follow him really through the business and see exactly what he did. It was clear that he had cut himself and >> so you could look at the crime scene photos and figure that all that out. >> Yes. And the when they entered that blood in 2007, uh was that just a result of having some new technology to to run it through or or was there something happening in 2007 that prompted that? >> No. Again, you know, the sheriff's office has been pretty committed to cold cases throughout the years. That commitment's been renewed by a sheriff called Terry obviously uh over the past several years. He's invested a lot of resources, money. Those uh testings are not cheap. It's [clears throat] very very expensive to have that stuff analyzed and and have the genetic genealogy investigations, but there there's been a long commitment long before I ever got to this organization to the cold cases. And so I think it was Mike Bailey was working cold cases at that time and he saw the evidence the way I saw it and and recognized it was likely suspect blood and had it tested and again just you know what the matter of by that time in 2007 what 20 plus years had passed and and so we could only get as much information as we could get from the blood and um but that's the benefit again of the new kind of the new DNA as I like to refer to it the snip profile the degradation isn't as impactful on the snip DNA And so we can um sort of look at it from a different perspective and still do the genetic genealogy. And even in that case, we're having some challenges getting a snip profile from that suspect blood, but more work in that. >> Were there any other um potential suspects that were identified when uh when the case was fresh or or or through the years? >> There's a couple of things going on. There's obviously um the husband of the victim appears to have been in an extrammarital affair. um that woman, the mistress for the husband had a roommate that generally fit the physical description and uh although the husband and the mistress had a really very good alibi, they were out on a boat with several other witnesses that day. Um the roommate was supposed to go, did not go and uh you know, nobody could really account for his whereabouts. The mistress said, "Oh, he was sick on the couch in his pajamas when I left. When I came home, he's wearing the same pajamas and he's still on the couch." So, you know, he was a person of interest. Um, his apartment wasn't very very far from where the car was recovered. It was a few blocks away. I mean, it's further than I would expect somebody to would walk, but uh it not an overwhelming distance away. >> And you said he mentioned a physical description. Had somebody seen something or >> So, there was a one person uh several people during the canvas. There was more than one person that remembered seeing an individual that was just hanging out out front for at least an hour before the computer store opened up. And and so there was a description of that person. Um you know, kind of a typical 510 to six foot white guy with dark hair um and some clothing description, but there was somebody that caught the attention just because they were just loitering out front for for a period of time. And again, you know, they they said he showed up around 9:00 a.m. or at least he was first noticed around 9:00 a.m. and and the store wasn't scheduled to open till 10:00 a.m. And so, uh, that that individual was always somebody that was never identified, but was thought to potentially have some involvement. >> So, did you guys think that it was because it didn't look like they stole anything, but it was specifically like she was targeted? >> Yeah. What's interesting is the purse was taken. So, the purse was emptied out. Um, but the purse was missing and the only thing taken were the keys. The the cash register was left alone. Like I said, the loose cash that she had in her purse was left alone. And then the owner of the store was living in the back office. He was going through a breakup at the time. Again, he had a really good alibi as well. He was down at the wagon wheel um flea market selling computer stuff that day all day. And so he was not really a suspect in it. But he was living in the back office and he said he had a bag of clothes and that bag of clothing had gotten emptied out, but the bag was missing as well. And so, uh, it was a little curious to me what else might be going on or what else might be taken that he would need an empty purse or an empty bag for since, you know, nothing was stolen. Uh, none of the software was taken, none of the computers were taken. And so, uh, I'm not really sure, you know, and that's kind of the mystery. But, you know, unfortunately, the two owners of the store are deceased as well and have been. So, there's, you know, nothing I can do to really to talk to them anymore about if there's anything else or, you know, anything nefarious going on. But, >> so, what's the latest uh on this case? What steps have you taken since you kind of picked it up? Um, which I think you already started when we talked last, but what's what's new? >> Yeah, so again, we're just uh we're developing that SNIP profile. um uh you know that profile has finally worked. It's been frustrating. Uh even though the degradation doesn't affect it too much, it's still challenging sometimes to get a profile. And and in this particular case, our partners, DNA Labs International, I called and said, "Hey, we've got a profile." And and I made the mistake of notifying everybody. I was very excited. And uh I come in and Monday morning, I have an email saying, "Sorry, your profile did not work." And I was like, "Uh, you guys called me Friday. What happened?" And I said, "Yeah, we shouldn't have called you Friday. Uh it didn't work. And so they went back to the drawing board, they worked on it again. Uh, some new kits have come out. I mean, it's an evolving science. It really is. And they continue to perfect their kits. A new kit came out. So, we decided to wait a couple of months until that kit was validated. Uh, they reran that kit and and ultimately they were successful in getting a snip profile and and so we're in the process of working a genetic genealogy on that case right now too to see whose blood that is at the scene. >> That's great. And then that'll be another another one uh >> another story for Inside the Star. another press release. Yeah, >> that's just really awesome. I mean, and it's it has to be so interesting to go back and, you know, kind of retrace steps the detectives have taken previously just to kind of, you know, walk through the case and and figure the ins and outs and be able to pull something like this off is just so awesome. >> Um, >> that's truly a testament to the detectives before me. Obviously, it's, >> you know, I can only go out and do so many interviews. I can only go out and and recreate. I mean, I'm really reliant upon the forensic people's work back in in the day whenever this happened. And you know, you think about it and and of course DNA wasn't even a thought at that time in 1985 or even in 1987, but yet they were still swabbing blood. They were still collecting hairs and uh they did really a fantastic job. The detectives did a really good job interviewing people and talking to people. And so it's really a testament to them. I mean, it's if they don't do their job, then the chances of me picking it up 40 years later and coming up with anything is really slim. So >> and um you know the other piece that's that's so interesting just talking about technology is over the years I know we have and the reason I asked you about you know what was happening in 07 was just every time we've gotten new technology you know if there are still case agents remaining from those cases they couldn't quite figure out they're always jumping at the chance to to use that technology I remember uh when I first started it was a story we always talked about in forensics when uh former sheriff he rice was actually a detective they had a fingerprint off of a murder of a cab driver that was uh just pushed into a ditch and every time we got new fingerprint technology that he would run it. They actually ended up finding the guy because, you know, as the technology came or as more profiles were uploaded nationally, they're able to get those hits. So, it just speaks to the passion that of course these investigators have when they're working these cases. >> Yeah, there's no doubt. It's a matter of fact and Sheriff Gary's been good to me. you know, I've learned uh so much about genetic genealogy and really the snip DNA that I was completely unaware of before I walked in the door here and and he's allowed me to go back and and help Renal PD on some other cases and excuse me and uh you know on so on my time off I've been able to apply for some funding to to help pay for some cases in Reno and uh we've got a couple and and one of the prerequisites for uh the funding for genetic genealogy is familial DNA testing and on and murder from the early 2000s out west. Um, we've identified a possible suspect on a murder out there. And really, that's just again attributed to, you know, the sheriff's office, the knowledge I've learned here. And then again, those are a couple of cases that have always stuck with me. They weren't my cases, but they happened during my time in homicide. And >> I'm looking back now going, we had, it's very similar to Shirley Trener. You know, there were stabbings where the suspect cut themselves, bled all over the place. We have ample DNA. It's just not matching anybody. And now that I understand the genetic genealogy component of it, I understand uh how to find some funding for it and understand how to do that investigation, the Reno PD's allowed me to to help them out on the weekends and on my Friday day off and as a result uh we're we've identified, I believe, a suspect. We're just waiting for some confirmation on a a case from the early 2000s and they've got genetic genealogy working on another one and and hopefully we'll get that person identified as well. So the the tenacity is there whether it's out west or whether it's here but usually the first phone calls I make are to you know Mike Ring was very very involved in a lot of these cases all the way through his career as a major and and I called Mike Bailey and I've been filling him in on the Shirley Trainer case since he was the one that got that DNA working and so I think it's very important to to keep those people who were so passionate about these cases. >> I'm still thinking about them. >> Yeah, for sure. Sure. >> So, another case um that we have here um I know there's not a ton of detail on compared to these others, but is the uh 77 murder of Molly Newell. Tell us about that one. >> Yeah, that's a really interesting case. It was left open. Um we actually had a serial killer that was primarily on the east coast and then started coming over here to the west coast and uh committing crimes. And again, detectives did a really good job. Molly Newle was a girl that was uh she was dabbling in prostitution over in Tampa and she had last been seen over in Tampa off of Dale Mabberry. Um a couple days later we find her shot over off of Gandandy near the towers. Uh not a whole lot of leads to go off of. She shot with a 22 caliber and and that's about it. She had a Waffle House napkin with a what looked like maybe a room number written on it and and that was about it. There wasn't much to go off of. And uh the case went cold for investigators until the early 1980s when Gerald Stano was arrested over in Daytona Beach uh in for uh the murder of a prostitute. Another prostitute had been cut by him but escaped and called the police and that kind of led to them arresting him and then led to the discovery of the the homicide victim. And uh as a result he confessed to a couple of other murders. Uh he was sentenced to prison. uh did some time there. What motivated him, I'm not really sure, but uh he apparently liked the attention that he got. And so he started calling a detective from the Daytona Beach Police Department and uh started confessing to some more uh victims. And one of the victims was Molly Newell. And uh so it looked like that case was was pretty solved. And then there were some allegations uh from some co-workers of that lead detective who said that uh he was really feeding Gerald Stano with information that Gerald Stano may not have been responsible for these murders. And so the sheriff's office here, we left that case open uh just out of the abundance of caution that maybe somebody else was responsible for it. And it was a case I picked up because I was curious and and started researching and Gerald Stano was an interesting individual. Um he ultimately uh confessed to I think it was 40 plus murders and he's a suspect in like over 80 murders they believe throughout the eastern seabboard. Um and uh so I kind of picked it up to start looking at it again and try to figure out why the case was still open on our end of things since he had confessed to it. He had given some information about picking her up off of Dale Mabry. Uh talked about the alibi lounge which was near the Waffle House. So, when I started doing some research, I saw that that's where she had last been seen. I thought, well, that's pretty specific information. Um, and really just kind of recreated the timeline for it, especially with these allegations from a coworker. I spoke with the original detective who said, "No, I was that guy's supervisor. I held him accountable for work he wasn't doing, and so he retaliated by trying to claim these things." And I don't know where the truth is. But, uh, I spoke with our detectives, our original detectives, and and spoke with his lawyers. He uh was executed by the state of Florida back in 1998. Um so he's dead and gone. His lawyers had the ability to talk. There's been books written about him. I talked to the some of the authors who had spent hours interviewing him just to see what else they could tell me about him. And he's just really an interesting individual. He he claimed to have had a sp a split personality. I don't know if he did or did not, but he claimed to be uh, you know, kind of this meek guy until the girls made him mad and then he would call uh his split personality that he Old Red and Old Red would come out. When Old Red came out, you know, a girl was going to die. And um, by all accounts, he confessed to, I think it was four murders in Pasco County, as well as Molly Newell. Uh, you know, I found it interesting. our detectives asked him about a couple of other unsolved cases at that time and uh he declined responsibility for those. So again, if this was somebody who was supposedly motivated by, you know, trying to embellish on how many murders they had committed, uh he had the opportunity to embellish a couple more and did not take credit and then ultimately we solved those. The sheriff's office did solve those other cases and they were not him. And so, you know, I kind of just uh took it on and started rebuilding, looking at the timeline of events. And when I really started looking at it, uh, by the time a task force had been created here with Pasco County, uh, St. Petersburg Police Department, Hillsboro County with us, and so, uh, when they got word about Gerald Stano and his confessions, they all decided to literally jump in the car the next day and drive out to Daytona and take turns interviewing him. So, there was really no time to feed him with information. The detectives at the time said, "I never sent anything to Daytona. there's no way he could have known uh anything about our case because nobody would have had the information to give him and he gave very specific information about the murder. Um he was able to describe uh where he had placed her body and uh it was very very specific. And then a couple weeks later he was brought out here and he drove around with Pasco County and pointed out where he had dumped several of their victims and then jumped in the car with our detective and directed our detective to where he picked her up. Directed him down Gandandy told him to go over the bridge said right past the towers pull over here to the right you'll see these little wooden jetty out there and this is where I put her in these bushes. this is what happened. And uh that detective, even from the photographs, wasn't 100% sure where she was recovered. And so he had to call the original detective out and say, "Hey, where was she?" And he pointed to the exact same location that Stano had. And so when you looked at all the circumstances, you know, all of the victims between our Pasco County ones and ours were all killed with 22 caliber bullets. They were all either prostitutes or go- go dancers or uh you know, in some form or another in that lifestyle. And uh so it really just it all fit it all fit with exactly what he was saying. And so you know we ultimately spoke with Sheriff Galter and presented him with what we learned and and with the testimony of all the different people involved and uh uh you know although I think uh Molly's family believed that Gerald Stano was responsible for and probably thought that the case was closed you know ultimately we we came to the conclusion that we could officially close that case and and close that one as well attributing him to Gerald Stano. So, >> you don't think of them even as cases that maybe it's all there but just needs to be wrapped up. So, I I I didn't know that was a thing. >> Yeah. No, and it was pretty wrapped up really. They did a very very good job. It just was a matter of you know, this allegation came out with this coworker and again there were some concerns and uh you know, so rather than allowing somebody to falsely confess to murder and us close it and not look, we decided to leave it open and continue to look. And that's what we did. We just continue to look and and reinvestigate it and and reprove that it was really Gerald Stano that did it. >> Yeah. >> What's so interesting to me about that? Like it's it's disgusting that they're excited to tell you all the things that you know all the people that they killed and where they killed them and everything, but in some ways it's it gets some closure for some of those families maybe that don't never would have known otherwise. It's It's like such a weird catch 22. >> Oh, for sure. I mean, people can only spend so many lives in in prison and can only be executed for so many cases, but you know, it really is important, I think, to the family to be able to hear the story and understand. And, you know, I I'm not sure. I know the word closure gets used a lot. I'm not sure that that exists, but I think accountability exists. And I think you know the family having the opportunity to explain and understand rather uh you know the explanation from the the suspect about why and and what transpired at least to the best of you know their willingness to tell the truth. I think there is power to that. I think families, you know, imaginations can run wild and when your family member or loved one's a victim of a violent crime, I think you can imagine some pretty horrific things and and sometimes they are horrific details, but at least know what took place and understand what took place. I think helps that imagination from running too wild. >> Yeah, >> it's amazing these days to think about somebody who killed 40, 50, 60 people. I mean, that just doesn't happen in in the 70s and 80s. When you were first telling me about this, um, I couldn't remember the name of the serial killers. So, I looked up Florida serial kill serial killers and there were like 50 of them in that time period. I couldn't even narrow it down from the information you gave me. >> Yeah, Florida was off the hook. There's no doubt about it. I've I've looked at a couple of different serial killers here and I'm just like, what was going on? It was in the water back then because it is out of control. There was no doubt there was some craziness that took place. >> And there are serial killers like that these days, right? >> Well, I you know, I certainly don't know. I mean, obviously, uh, they're finding serial killers from back in the day. I don't know if if uh you know, somebody's actively going out there and doing things. I mean, obviously, >> you know, technology has improved and and ring cameras and surveillance cameras. I mean, it's definitely uh it's a much tougher business to go commit homicide. >> Like in the Trener case, if that guy had been lurking out there, there would have been seven different cameras that caught him. >> Yep. For sure. For sure. And potentially cameras, you know, leading away from where the car was abandoned and, you know, see what else we could have done. I mean, there's Yeah, it definitely uh was a lot more challenging as far as the evidence capabilities. You know, DNA didn't exist. You know, there's blood type and fingerprints uh going back into the 80s. And so, yeah, there's definitely uh been a lot of advancements that favor the homicide detectives versus the murderer. [laughter] >> Yeah. You know, um you obviously uh inspire us with the work you do. So, we've been trying to up the Annie a little bit on on, you know, increasing awareness with the public on our some of our u all of our cold cases. Um, but particularly some others I we're going to talk through. But I Ashley, if I could put you on the spot, you just kind of talk about what we're doing uh on social right now uh each month with some of these cases to kind of help raise their profile and and always, you know, looking for tips that could help uh our cold case, >> of course. Um that's one of my things that I've done recently that I'm really really proud of. Um, so we out of all of our cold cases, the unsolved uh murders and then missing persons, uh, I worked with Ron and uh, Detective Glenn and got all of their like we had a discussion because I was trying to figure out how can we um, get some light to all of these cases because actually I was on Facebook and I saw someone post about Kelly Rothell that it was her birthday and just they were doing their own like awareness of her case and I was like we should be doing that. We should be doing something to remind people of these cases and uh we ultimately came up with birthdays cuz it's not exactly uh happy to go with the date that everything happened. So, we've gone with birthdays. And so, the last day of the month, we post about all of our cases um with victims that or missing persons or unsolved murderers um their birth date. So, and uh we've been doing that for a few months now and uh I feel like it's been pretty successful. We've had some good feedback >> about it and um I'm just proud to be able to put that information out there and hopefully it leads to, >> you know, leads or more information, >> anything. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, um a couple of those if you're ready to just roll through some of these that we have and and these are um we're going to start with with homicide cases, but these are the ones that we really have a decent amount of information on >> and ones that that Ron is working on. We also have two other cold case detectives and >> please put Tom on notice. We would like to get him on to talk about his cases, but [laughter] >> I tried to get him to come today. Yes, >> these this is the official shout out, the official uh summoning. So, [laughter] >> so these are >> these are ones that you in particular have worked on. >> These are cases that Ron has knowledge about. Yes, thank you for clarifying that. So, uh the first one is a 1961 Jane Doe. Tell us about that. >> Is that our second oldest one? Uh, probably probably 1955 is the oldest and so I think 61 is probably the second oldest and I think we touched on that in the original podcast and and before I go too far, you know, kudos to Ashley because when she came with to us with that idea of celebrating the victims, I was a little disappointed I didn't come up with it. I'm pretty victim [laughter] centered and uh it was a great idea and I'm so appreciative of it. I think that, you know, that's what the families really want is, you know, the reminder that, you know, we're still looking. So, >> it was a great idea and very good job on on your part, Ashley. So, um, but yeah, no, the Jane Do61, uh, like I said, I think we talked about it earlier on. It's a woman that was found on March 4th, 1961. She was, uh, in Tampa Bay, kind of near the Oldar Power Station, just uh, sort of east of Safety Harbor, north of Courtney Campbell in that little area. Uh, she had a cinder block tied to her ankle. She had a injury to her forehead, and uh, that was about it. Um, she had dentures. Uh, she didn't have any earrings. She had a couple of scars on her abdomen and her pelvic area and and that's about all we really knew. She was wearing a one piece bathing suit and uh she's never ever been identified. Um, we've tried over the years to get DNA from her. She she was uh buried in a poppers uh cemetery. Uh they exumed her body in the late 90s to try to get DNA. Um we still have her bones at the medical examiner's office. Uh, her bones have been sent to the FBI, to the University of North Texas, to FDLE, to our lab, just everywhere to try to get DNA, and nothing has ever worked. Um, I actually sent her bones to Aram uh because they've had some success. They were able to get uh some bones from a person who went missing off the Australian coast in the ocean 100 years earlier. They were able to uh get DNA from some bones. And I thought, well, if they were successful with that, maybe they'll be successful with Jane do 61 and sent them bones, did not work. Sent some more bones, still did not work. And uh so we kind of put it back in the box. And then again, as I was talking about earlier, you know, the uh kits have improved. Um the really kind of my the person I go to, my expert is a gentleman by the name of Danny Hellwig. He owns uh and started Resolve Forensics out in Utah. And so I've worked with him and he's really been a big source of my knowledge. I have spent hours on the phone, you know, just asking him questions and uh we talk fairly regularly and he keeps me uh apprised of all the new changes. And so he's been calling me saying, "Hey, send me those bones. I want those bones, Ron." And we've he's like, "We're we're making great strides." And so, you know, and I told him like, "Danny, this is the first time the sheriff's office would use you. I want it to be successful. I don't want it to be another failure. You know, I want us to to start with a success and not a failure." And so finally I said, "Okay, let me ask." And that they said, "Yep, go ahead and send him out there. We'll pay for it." And we sent him out and he called and he said, "Hey, good news. We actually are getting some DNA out of those bones." He's like, "We're going to test some more bones and try to get a little bit more DNA and see what we can do." And >> uh so they were uh processing that again. And last I heard, he says, "I I if we can get it to work, we'll get it to work. We do have some DNA." And uh like he's wow. >> So I'm very hopeful. I'm very very hopeful that what they're doing out there is is a gamecher quote unquote from Danny Hillwig and uh hopefully we'll be successful and then we can do a genetic genealogy investigation and see if we can't you know try to figure out who she is and and recreate her life. So >> go from there. Yeah. How was she found? Like a boater or something. Found her. Yeah. >> Yeah. She started to unfortunately, you know, she started to decomp even with the the weight holding her down. She ended up surfacing and so a boater found her and and notified Tampa PD actually and it was kind of a right on the border. Is it ours? Is it theirs? And and we took it and have maintained it since. >> Yeah. So what is that? Do you what can you tell us about the process of trying to get DNA from bones? Are they are they taking pieces of the bone? Is there a process they're doing with it? Like what does that look like? >> Yeah, there's definitely some bones. There's certain teeth that are better. There are certain areas of the skull that are better for DNA. Um, unfortunately for her because she was buried for almost 40 years and we exumed her, her bones were not in good shape. Obviously, our water table is very high and uh so her bones were not in good shape. But yeah, that's what they'll do. They take the femur is another one and that's what we've tried multiple times where they'll cut a section of the femur apart and uh actually uh do the the DNA magic, put the powder in and try to develop that DNA profile. And and again, it's just been unsuccessful so far. And and we'll see. I mean, just to hear him say that they're getting some DNA and then they're adding to it is is great strides considering, you know, what all the other labs have told me, which is there's just nothing there. >> It's amazing. These days, we wouldn't bury a body like that, a victim like that, would we? We would we would keep the keep the bones as evidence. >> Yeah. I don't honestly I don't know. Oh, I'm sure the medical examiner's office would probably keep the the body until um they get them identified and you know, I don't know how long they keep them for or if they would store them >> um you know, in a cooler until they get them identified. I'm I'm really not sure what that process looks like. We would obviously collect samples and and work the samples. We've had a couple of unidentified human remains cases. Um, we had one just what about a year and a half, two years ago that lasted about a year and uh, we got him identified through Florida's familial searching kind of like what I was talking about out in Nevada, but we ran a familial search getting ready to do genetic genealogy on him and uh, lo and behold, we we found a relative and did some research and was a able to find out who he was. He was from Massachusetts, kind of like uh, you know, our last unidentified human remains case. And, you know, nobody was really looking for him. Nobody had filed a missing person report. a little bit estrange from his family and and so we got him identified. He'd only like I said he only been unidentified for I think around two years when we got him identified but >> very cool. >> That was by Bay Pines. >> Nope, that was the first one. Yeah, this one was actually down by Fort Doddto um kind of by the Penellis Bayway. >> Got it. >> Okay. >> Um from 84 we have John Oliver >> Brigal. >> Tell us about him. >> Yeah, so it's an interesting one. That's one I've just just started looking at and really what drew my attention I was uh cruising the internet uh one morning uh you know getting settled on the day and saw a cold case from Ohio and uh started reading the uh report and interestingly enough a gentleman who was kind of a car uh part salesperson um back in the 1985 uh was staying at a Holiday Inn up in Ohio. uh he ended up being murdered in the Holiday Inn room and uh his car was recovered uh down here actually in I believe it was Readington Beach and I thought well that's kind of interesting you know and I started looking at it and I remembered that we had a case where uh one of our murder victim's cars was taken to Ohio and started researching and and remembered it was John Bgal and started looking at his and all of a sudden his was 1984 December of 84 uh that uh he uh was a gentleman he homosexual. He appeared to have somebody staying with him. Uh as a matter of fact, there's a pillow on the couch in the crime scene photo. Somebody looks like they're sleeping on the couch. Um neighbors kind of talked about somebody staying for a little while and uh he's found beaten and murdered in his house. Uh his car is gone. Uh they start researching his credit cards in ' 84 and his credit cards are uh sort of in the South Florida area, Fort Lauderdale, and then all the way up to Ohio. Um they used his credit card to stay at a Holiday Inn, uh which I thought was an interesting little tiein. Uh then his car uh was taken to a salvage even though it was a year old at the time. Uh some suspects took his car to a salvage place in Dayton, Ohio, which was not far from where the murder took place in that 1985 cold case. Um they tried to sell the car there. The person wrote down the license plate, thought it was suspicious, and called the police. Uh they got a general description, but that car has never ever been recovered. So, I assume that they probably found somebody who bought the car and parted it out or whatever they did with it. Um, but uh the case kind of went cold. We really didn't. Again, talking about video, you know, back in the 80s, it's not like it today where we would be pulling video from those credit card transactions. Uh, we got a suspect description from uh the person that stayed at the Holiday Inn in Ohio and then we got a suspect description from the person trying to sell the car. And that's about all that we've really had to go on since. And so I don't know if there's any linkage to it or not to what Ohio has. I've spoken with the Ohio detectives uh about the Bgal case. And um right now, you know, David Villave over at Aphus is running Prince through and looking at the two suspects that they've identified in Ohio for us. And I've started reviewing that case and uh again, I'm starting to see blood where I don't think I should see blood. So I'm not really sure if it's suspect blood, but um it's it's not where I would expect victim blood to be. And so, uh, >> when was that blood collected? >> Uh, it looks like it was collected. Um, I need to go through and really, uh, research again, kind of like we talked about in the first one, I kind of start with the photographs and I start looking at the scene and trying to interpret the scene from my perspective. And >> again, you know, that's always a good sign when I'm starting to see blood. Good sign for me when I see blood that, uh, uh, I don't think it should be. I don't see why the victim would be where the blood is. You know, I'm hoping it's not just transfer from the victim and I'm hoping that our suspect's bleeding from something and hopefully it's his blood. And uh so we'll see. We'll see what's been collected and I'll dig into it a little bit deeper and see if there's any connection with these Ohio folks or if it's completely random. And if it is random, hopefully it was at least the the push I needed to start looking at it and and see if we can't figure out whose blood that is, if it is in fact foreign. >> You just ran across a random article on the internet. Put that connection together. >> Yeah, it was crazy. I was like, "Oh, I'm always interested in what other people are doing to solve cold cases." And started reading and when I saw Readington Beach, I was like, "Well, that's really weird." And then I started looking and uh our victim just lived on the other side of the bridge from Readington Beach and Semol. And I was like, "Well, this is pretty weird." I mean, it's a few months apart, but you know, and then when I saw the Holiday Inn connection and that our people stayed at Holiday Inn, I was like, "This is this is really weird." I don't have any idea if it's related or not, but again, you know, good detectives don't like coincidences. >> Something's got to be meant to be there if you just happen to see it. >> So, we'll see. We'll see where that takes us as well. >> So, just a quick question about your personal process because you got me thinking about it. So, like when you look into a case, um you mentioned you'll look at the crime scene photos to kind of see what you can pick up from it. Do you do that like before you actually read the about the case like read the reports? Do you look at the photos first or do you kind of what's your process? >> Yeah. No, I I always start with photos. Uh I want to analyze. I don't I really don't want to hear or read anything. I don't want to adopt what somebody else's perceptions are. >> Uh so I usually just start with the crime scene, start looking. It's it's really one of my favorite things to do. I like to try interpret what happened by looking at a crime scene, by looking at blood. I mean, some crime scenes are not as challenging as others, of course, but um you know, especially when there's beings, stabbings, etc. that have taken place. It's very interesting to me to try to recreate what the suspect did, where the victim was, how things transpired, and then what again, I'm always looking for blood where I I shouldn't find blood and and see if, you know, we can come up with suspect blood or uh something else. And so, I start making my list after going through the photographs of what evidence I want to test and what things I want to make sure were tested. And then I'll start reading the reports. Then I'll start looking at uh uh what's been tested, what the witnesses have to say, and kind of go from there. And I mean, to me, it's it it takes a cold case and makes it fresh in my mind. I'm looking at the photographs like I'm walking through that scene today. And so it makes it a fresh scene. And then I start reading the reports about what the canvas showed like, you know, we're canvasing him today. I mean, that time doesn't change any of that. I just can't ask those follow-up questions that weren't asked. But uh for the most part, like I said, the sheriff's office has done a good job historically and typically I find my answers and and now I just apply the the new technologies uh to those old cases. And even when we talked the first time, I think I told you guys one of the biggest limitations of genetic genealogies, I had to have DNA extract. And if I didn't have extract, I couldn't do it. And even now that's changed in the last several years. Danny Hellwig and DNA labs. Those two, you know, it's two separate people, but labs we've used, they're both certified labs. They've been certified through the government. So, we can actually ship evidence to them now. So, now instead of having extract, I can ship them a bloody swab or a shirt with blood on it. They can do their own extract process and actually now process it. So, I mean, even that's changed just in the couple of years since I was here last. And so it's it'll continue to evolve and it's really my job just to stay on top of that evolution and know what the capabilities are and continue to try to do my part to stretch those capabilities. >> Wow. >> Richard and Sally Smith, >> tell us about that. >> Yeah, so that's an interesting it's a double homicide uh from it was really uh Labor Day weekend of 1989. Um by all accounts I'm pretty comfortable saying that they were killed on uh Friday, September 1st, 1989. and uh you know I don't know obviously the motive we don't know who did it but uh he owned an electrical company and electric engineering and and would do electrical work on homes and and large commercial buildings and by all accounts he had some financial issues. Uh it looked like he was going through uh the possibility of selling his business and and selling the building his business was in to to try to get out of these financial woes. Uh and so I don't know if that played into it or didn't play into it. Um both him and his wife were obviously murdered. I don't think it was at the same time. Um I think one of them was killed first and I think that the killer waited for the second one to show up >> and then killed that person as well. And so it's very very interesting. Again, I'm also just sort of starting on that one. It's it's interesting. That's a there's a gentleman that calls me from Tallahassee that went to high school with Sally Smith and it's always bothered him. And so he calls and calls and was calling me during an opal wheel and and call and you know I kept telling him look I promise you I'll try to get to it. I'm busy with these other ones and uh it's you know the old squeaky wheel gets the oil. He uh continue to call and continue to call and I finally uh got to a point with Opal Wheels case and prosecution that I could start looking at that case and I've started reading it. He still calls me and I keep having to tell him I'm having to step away to look at this or stepping away to look at that. But uh uh he calls me about once a month and uh we're looking at it. It's interesting. Uh, you know, some of the names, there's a very influential family out in California that, uh, their name is on all kinds of buildings out in California that I'm used to going through. And that name popped up in the report and I was like, I wonder if it's related. And sure enough, they're a big development family. And they were out here doing some development as well. And it is the same family. Wow. >> Um, you know, not that they're suspects in this or anything else, but he had done some electrical work for that developer and everything else. So, like you said, it just it's always interesting to me when I find linkages to my old life out west out here. And so, you know, we'll see. We'll see what happens on that. Again, the crime scene is definitely very interesting on that one, too. And, >> uh, again, there's a little bit of blood where there shouldn't be blood. And so, we'll see what that is. If that's, you know, transfer from, you know, contact with one of the victims or if, uh, the suspect sustained some type of injury. I'm not really sure. But, you know, we'll continue to see. And really, it's so much of it's about the evidence and so much about it's the analyzing. So, I put a lot of a lot of effort into that, processing the crime scene, looking at what's there and what I can take from it and and go from there. There's no shortage of suspects on that one. There's a lot of weird people, a lot of uh weird things going on around their house. And so, it's >> how how are they killed? Is that something you can say? >> I don't I we have not released that. I What's interesting I can tell you that they're killed differently. >> I can tell you that much that they're both killed different methods. uh were used on on both of them. Um so it's pretty interesting. Uh but yeah, I don't we'll hold off on saying how right now. >> And uh where where were they located? Like where is their home located? >> Their home was located on Drew Street over kind of near the Clearwater Thresher Stadium. Okay. Sort of over there. >> And then just obviously um you did mention that it's pretty obvious they were killed at different times just based on being different parts of the house or >> Yeah. I just I think there definitely different parts of the house and just at least the way I see it. Of course I could be wrong. Um but you know just the way I see it uh you know there was a lot of mail dropped at the front entrance. So to me it looks like uh somebody was surprised coming in the front door. Um the way that the victim was found that was in the back of the home um it took a little bit more time. I think I don't think that being able to control both of them and there's really no indication that you know they were trying to control both at the same time. And so it's it's interesting in that that sense that I really do feel like uh that person was there for maybe a little bit of time and and did harm to one of them waiting for the other one to come home. And that you know may point towards motivation as well. you know, if if one person specifically was targeted, you know, maybe that points to us at what that motivation is. So, that's why I sort of am talking a little bit in code about it. You know, it's a little bit confusing, but I mean, I think that that could uh could point us in a certain direction. >> Do you think that there's a possibility that the one was targeted and the other one just happened to come in at the wrong time? Yeah, I kind of think that one was targeted and and one wasn't home and one was home and uh so the first one got killed until the the targeted one got home is sort of my feeling for it is is that >> um like I said, I could be wrong, but I just think through the circumstances and the way it looks, it looks like that the suspect or suspects got there and and uh murdered one of the parties and and then waited for the other party to get home and then uh took action as soon as they walked walked in the door. >> Wow. >> About how old were they? >> Uh he was older than she was. Uh I don't remember their exact age right now, but I think he was a little bit older. I think he was in his 40s and she was in her 30s. >> Okay. Yeah. And have you know have a person that you know knew her that is just still hanging on to the case is interesting too. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it's definitely as a matter I mean if he listens to this but he called me and called me and called me and I started like so what was your relationship anyways? Why are you so curious about what's going on? Yeah, >> I'm pretty comfortable based off of, you know, his explanation. >> That's a valid question. >> He's just uh somebody who cared and and I think he cared for her in the past and and you know wants to see justice for her and her family and I think his motives are pure. >> Yeah. Um so moving to missing persons, uh which really is doesn't necessarily mean that they they weren't murdered or whatever. It's just we got we got nothing. >> Got a body. >> Yeah. So there there's a couple of those that you've been um following up on. um uh from 2012. Uh Raymond Rup, tell us about that one. >> Yeah, so I I think Raymond Rup was murdered. Um he's just a bodyless murder. Really? We have him characterized or classified as a a missing person, but I think there's some evidence to support that he was murdered. And uh uh that's pretty interesting. He lived up off of alternate 19 up in the Palm Harbor area. Uh, same thing. He had some a roommate who, you know, said he had left prior to um the missing person or the murder and uh I think he's a a pretty strong suspect in it. I've done some interviews and there's definitely been some some statements made. Uh we're lacking a body. So, that always makes things very challenging. Bodyless homicides are very hard to prove when you can't explain um how they died. Uh sometimes you know this we have the benefit of 14 years passing but of course there's always question you know the defense always likes to say you know what are you going to do ladies and gentlemen of the jury when Raymond Rup walks through that back door you know and you know if they look or you know they're like oh see if you looked you don't know that he's dead and how can you say he's dead and you know and so there's there's definitely some challenges to proving that somebody was murdered and how they were murdered and uh that that's definitely an interesting case. there were some checks that were cashed uh after his death and uh you know suspect was in possession of some checks after his death and again I've I've done some interviews in the last couple of years that's sort of pointed towards a suspect. Um I've actually called that suspect is not in our state anymore and um we actually had our suspect arrested. he was breaking the law in another state had him arrested and and uh we were able to collect some DNA items and and further some testing and uh so far that hasn't uh given us the evidence that we need to to prosecute yet, but uh I think that one's headed in the right direction as well. >> That's awesome. Uh Robert Webb 2015. >> So Robert Webb was one that uh he is not an obvious homicide. Of course, he's a missing person and so I certainly can't tell you what happened to him, but there was some suspicion about his roommate and and you know, he I think struggled with some substance abuse and he had some um very awkward behavior, a history of some very awkward behavior. I mean, at one point, uh the neighbors talked about how he was cleaning house and emptied all the furniture from the the house out onto the front porch and was wearing nothing but a t-shirt and nothing on the lower half. And so, uh, you know, I don't know to what level, um, whether it was, uh, potentially drug induced or or what mental health issues may have, uh, been there, but what really was bothersome is as he was being reported missing. Um, the roommate said that he had just gotten a brand new chrome bicycle and that Robert Webb had taken off on his chrome bicycle and then never came home. And and we had some video surveillance of him at a couple of different stores. Um, and uh, when he was being reported missing, there was a chrome bicycle in the living room. And so the family was always very suspicious about that, that he had taken off on this chrome bicycle. And there's the chrome bicycle sitting in the living room. Um, and so they had a lot of questions and rightfully so. Um, there were some other interesting aspects. There was nobody owned a car, but yet there were some fresh tire marks and some mud in the backyard. And so that raised some suspicions and um, it was one of the first cases I really looked at when I got here. And I've talked to to his uh I think estranged wife. I don't know if they were ever divorced. And his uh daughters and uh very very sweet people, very understanding, very caring people. And uh ultimately I started to investigate it and and found uh some video of those transactions and confirmed that the chrome bike he was on that day was different than the chrome bike that was in the living room. It was not the same. came. So once I brought that uh to the family, that I think uh eased a lot of their concerns about the roommate. Uh the roommate had uh told investigators that uh they had a bunch of firewood in the back and that somebody had come by to pick up that firewood, which was the uh tire marks in the mud. Um but nobody had ever found that person. Uh I was able to find that person, talk to him. He corroborated that story. Um the the sheriff's office called forensics. We luminolled the entire residence which looks uh for blood will fluores with the presence of luminol and so we processed their entire househ looking for evidence of a crime scene and found none. >> Um so by all accounts I'm really not sure what happened. We did a bunch of uh cellular telephone mapping and uh where the last area of the phone was. I would we're not really sure why he would have been in that area. Family can't explain it. Um, but uh I'm relatively comfortable at least the roommate. I interviewed him and he's been nothing but cooperative from from day one. And again, I think he was really only a suspect because of the concerns of the chrome bike being in the living room while they're reporting him missing that he was gone on the chrome bike. But >> um you know, the roommate had actually just received the chrome bike as a Christmas gift when uh Robert borrowed it and took off with it and just never brought it back. And so we've done a bunch. I' I've tried to pull all the found bike reports from that time frame hoping that if uh you know Mr. Web decided to stop the bike and go swimming and something happened to him swimming or or whatever would have happened that you know give us a search area. Um haven't really found any reports that have uh you know identified that bike. We didn't have a serial number but you know at least by the description and and so we've done a bunch of work on it. Uh still haven't found him. Stayed in contact with the family. Uh, every once in a while the family will comment on your guys' stories. I see them comment. So, they're obviously very keen and and and paying attention to what we're doing. And so, it'd be really nice to to find him and uh be able to explain to the family what happened in that particular case. >> So, the the last one we wanted to chat with you about um you've been kind of active on uh recently, which is uh Joseph Phillips from uh 2018. So, tell us about that one. >> Yeah. So that's really another very interesting one. I guess they're all interesting, but uh Joe Phillips uh is a gentleman that was uh from really North Dakota. He lived in North Dakota. He had some ties to Ohio. Um he had come down here to go to school in the Tampa area. He was an older gentleman. Again, I don't recall his age, but I think he was in his 50s. Um he had a service dog named Danger that he always had with him. Um, and so he started staying at a home through I don't know if his biological brother, I don't think so. They referred to each other as biological brothers, but I don't think that they were biological brothers. But he had friends that were living over in Tampa and uh they were all supposed to move down here together. Uh, the brother Joe Phillips and then the brother's fiance. Um, well, as they're leaving Ohio, they get pulled over. Uh, they have a gun in the car. They end up going to jail except for Joe Phillips. The brother and and the fiance go to jail. Um so Joe Phillips says, "Well, I'm gonna still continue on down to Tampa." He drives to Tampa and says, "Hey, do you mind if I stay here still?" Those guys are up there. And it was the fiance's brother's house over in Tampa. And so they allow him to stay. Uh it's kind of a weird house in the sense that uh the owner of the home has a flooring business. most of his employees live there. Whether they're sleeping, you know, on a air mattress or whether they have a truck out in the the yard that they're sleeping in or a motor home, but there's several people living on this property. Most of them are working for the flooring business. Joe Phillips is the only one who's not working for the flooring business. Uh, but he's here for several months and then one day they decide to go out to to Gandandy Beach together. Uh, there's a couple of truckloads of people go out to Gandandy Beach. Uh they say Joe Phillips is out kind of doing his own thing with Danger the Dog and uh meeting people and when it's time to go uh they're getting ready to load up in the truck and that Joe realizes he's missing his iPhone. And so Joe doesn't want to leave. He's concerned that all of his schoolwork is on his iPhone. A lot of his life is on his phone. So they claim that they help him look for the phone for about a half an hour and then they say, "Look, we got to go. We got to work in the morning. It's time to and they get him and the dog in the truck. They drive back over to Tampa. When they get back to the house, Joe is very upset about it and uh they decide they're going to give Joe a ride back over to the beach and drop him off so he can look for his phone. Um we did a lot of cell phone records. He comes back over to the beach at about uh I think it's about 2:00 a.m. if I remember correctly. Generally, he gets dropped off and uh the person who drops him off heads back to the house in Tampa. And >> him and the dog or just him? him and the dog. Okay. >> And uh about four or five hours later, there's a woman driving over Gandandy that sees danger the dog running. Uh doesn't see anybody around, is concerned that danger is going to get hit by a car. So, she pulls over and actually gets danger. And again, kind of weird circumstance. She puts danger on a Facebook uh page for found pets. Joe Phillips's ex-wife out in Colorado happens to see danger on Facebook. Says that's Joe's dog. Joe was supposed to fly to Colorado, didn't show up. Nobody's heard from Joe. And so she calls and reports him missing. And and so we start an investigation pretty quickly and pretty early on. Go over to the house in Tampa, start looking. No obvious signs of a crime scene. Nothing real real obvious, but ultimately Joe was never found. And so there's some suspicious circumstances in the sense that uh the person who's living at that house committed suicide in I think it was 2020. Uh the other person who took Joe over to the beach, uh lo and behold, about 7 months before Joe went missing, uh this man's girlfriend went missing up in Ohio. Uh he came down here and uh last year, Ohio finally charged him with her bodyless murder. Uh he had told a bunch of people that uh she had died and that he had burned the body and gotten rid of the bones. And so obviously that's the last person that was seen with Joe here in Tampa 7 months after uh his girlfriend, longtime girlfriend went missing and ultimately was murdered. And so he's obviously somebody we're looking at. Uh we we went up to Ohio and and interviewed him during his process, his his court process up in Ohio. >> Uh he acknowledges I was with him. I'm the one that drove him over there. Uh it was just him and me. I dropped him off. He was alive and well. and I went back to the house and I have no idea what happened to him. And again, it's a pretty small window. It's only about four hours from the time he gets dropped off until the dog is found that Joe's missing and his body's never been recovered. Um, you know, I I think that Joe likely had especially when you uh combine that with what he did up in Ohio, I think there's some probably some pretty nefarious activity taking place. I don't know whether, you know, Joe was killed in Tampa and and brought over here or if something happened on the beach or or what took place, but we're obviously looking at that. I'm hoping that that gentleman, we did a bunch of interviews while we were up in Ohio uh talking to people and uh you know, this gentleman happened to uh talk about his girlfriend quite a bit, but didn't really talk to too much about Joe. And most of those people out there knew Joe's brother, so they're kind of aware of what happened, but again, not quite the missing piece that we really needed. And so, we're still working on that. We're still hoping somebody will come forward. Obviously, uh the news in Ohio, the Cleveland area were blowing us up because it was big news. This bodyless murder and the missing woman up there, uh was big news. And you know, when they found out he was tied to a missing person down here, they obviously had a lot of questions and were very interested in what was going on with our case as well. >> And you mentioned um just working on uh locating the phone or like phone you said something about phone records. >> Do you are you able to verify that his phone actually was missing and like stayed there or >> not really? >> No, we couldn't really find a whole lot on his phones. As a matter of fact, one of the things that bothered me is right, you know, if my phone goes missing and we're all at the beach together. >> Probably the first thing you're going to do, right, is call my phone, right, and see if we can hear it or if somebody else found it, they're going to pick it up and, you know, when I have found phones, I just hold on to it because I know somebody's going to call it eventually. Yeah. >> And like, yep, I found your phone. Where do you want to meet? >> Nobody ever called his phone. And so that was kind of a red flag to me. I felt like that was >> Yeah. How did you help if you didn't do that? >> Correct. Yeah. So, I think that's a little bit suspicious. And so really we tracked the other phones, the other parties that were there. The there's really the two guys. There's the guy that committed suicide and then there's the guy that uh brought him back to the beach. And those two are communicating during the drive over, which is weird. There really be no reason for them to be calling each other when we asked him about those telephone calls. He he said he couldn't recall. He thinks he was just asking for directions, >> but he had already told us he had entered the directions in the Apple Maps. And so, you know, there's there's some definitely some some odd answers to that. And so yeah, did Joe's phone has never been found. We don't know where it is. It was turned off that afternoon and never found. So I don't know if the phone actually did go missing. I don't know if that was all just a fabricated excuse. I'm really not sure. I mean, the other people that were there all talked about that as well. And and so I'm not a big, you know, a fan of grand conspiracies. And so I think there may be some truth to some of that for all those people to have the same story. Um, but you know, and now that those parties are dead, uh, we've tried to reinter those people and they they're maintaining the same story as far as what transpired. So, I really do think it was probably something once they got back to Tampa that triggered this. But, >> so, but you can say for certain that he did leave the beach and go back to Tampa. >> By all accounts, there's several witnesses that say that he did that. Yeah, there's there's no shortage of people that say that. And then we even when he gets dropped off later, I think we do have some video of the truck coming back from the beach. >> Okay. >> Um so yeah, I I think it's I do think it's consistent. Obviously, somebody took the dog back over there. I assume that they brought Joe with them, you know, but >> yeah. >> And none of them report I mean I know they probably didn't have like any connection to him, but none of them reported him missing. It was who saw the dog on the Facebook post. >> Yeah. No. though Joe was having some issues that uh with some property being foreclosed upon and so he was dealing with some legal issues not of his own uh doing but just some legal real estate issues and again he was supposed to fly to Colorado a couple of weeks after this and he never got on the plane he never showed up which was very unlike him you know he had paid for the ticket but didn't use it never asked for a refund and he just vanished into thin air that night >> but the but the [clears throat] time frame back to your question though the time frame between them returning and The dog being found was very short. >> Very, very short. >> And they never said, "Hey, he never came home." That's what I mean. >> Yeah. >> Yes. No, everybody says they never saw him again. And nobody really did know him. And again, they're all working. And that's what they say. We're all working. We're all living our own lives. He's kind of an odd fella. And >> uh we don't know. We know that he was with us when we brought him back home. I went to bed and then I never saw him again. And so I don't I don't know what happened. >> Yeah. weren't concerned cuz he was just kind of right >> in and out kind of not temporary is how they viewed him. >> Yep. And he didn't even work with them. So >> yeah, >> there was really no reason to >> to do that. Yeah. >> Right. >> So the guy in Ohio, he freely admitted that he killed his girlfriend and dismembered her and got rid of the body >> eventually. I don't think he just freely volunteered [laughter] it, but yeah, he'd uh he had talked to several people. I mean, when I was in Ohio, I talked to several people that were like, "Oh, no. He told me he did this." And I'm just like, did he talk about Joel Phillips by any chance? He seems to talk about the girlfriend a lot. And uh I so I'm really not sure what uh their case was all about. Again, the bodyless murder takes it a little bit of time, but he had talked a fair amount about what he had done. And then I think he ultimately did admit I think what he ultimately told Ohio I wasn't investigating that part of it of course but I think he told them that she overdosed and then he just panicked and that he had put her on a burn pile for a couple of days and burned her body till there was nothing but bones and then picked up the bones and and discarded those in a river. But uh my understanding from Ohio is they searched that burn pile and I guess he's very very good because he picked up every little tiny bone. They didn't find one single bone. So, I I I struggle with my understanding of his version. Maybe I don't understand it correctly, but I think his version's not uh probably the truth in Ohio. Um, so, but yeah, so he ended up getting uh I think he plead guilty to a manslaughter and uh misuse of a corpse or something to that effect and he ended up with more time than he thought he was going to get, but I think he's going to do about 14 years up in Ohio or something. And so, we we'll continue to work. We continue to talk to people and uh see what we what we can figure out. >> You got anything else for him? >> No. What? Any anything else you want to share? >> Anything else in the hopper? >> It's it's always a difficult balance, I'm sure, because you want to release details that might spark somebody's memory even if it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. But you can't give away certain things because there are some things that only the guy who did it would know. So >> yeah, I know. Yeah, there's >> obviously tactical some juicy details, but >> fresh cases it's much more important. I mean, for me and my personal belief is that with the passage of time, I think it's less important to hold back that information. Um, you know, and I'm I'm fairly open and I tell people all the time, you know, when anytime we don't release, you know, how somebody was killed, it's not because it's some big secret. It just helps us to vet information that's coming in. You know, if we know that somebody was shot to death and and somebody calls in and says, "I heard Larry saying how he stabbed that guy." You know, I'm not going to ignore it, but >> it's probably not going to be as big of a priority as opposed to if somebody calls and says, "Hey, Larry's got a 9 millimeter and he was talking about how he shot this person and I know a 9 millimeter was used and that that's that's probably a lot more valid." So, I mean, really, it just helps us navigate. And I think with the passage of time, I don't think that that information is as important most of the time. might just but once you've released it, there's no bringing it back either. And so I think uh >> if there's some benefit where I think that it's something really unique, uh then I would share it because I think the benefit outweighs, you know, releasing the information. But, you know, in most of these cases, there's really not I don't see the the overwhelming benefit of of saying whether somebody was shot, stabbed, or beat to death. It just typically isn't, you know, going to make a difference. Either somebody has information out there and they're going to call me with it, or they're not. So, I have a question. Um, we have a couple of missing persons that they're just lost at sea. >> Um, what what are we what do we do there? Is it is it just hoping that maybe someone will say they found that like we >> Do you know what I'm trying to say? >> Yeah. [laughter] No. >> I've tried >> it's hard to post those sometimes. >> No. you know, >> and what would be left after 20 or 30 years even? I mean, >> I'm like, is there a 1% chance they're on an island somewhere going to get a bone or Yeah. >> Yeah. No, I don't think I mean, I think the likelihood is is slim that those people are still alive. Obviously, I think, you know, there's a greater chance that at some point some skeletal remain will wash up onto a shore and, you know, so it's important that we have DNA so that if that happens, we can, you know, identify who the belongings belong to and and, you know, recognize that at least we're starting to recover some of them. Um, those are very challenging. And uh um you know obviously at the time there was a lot of effort to to do search and rescue for those people and uh they were not found and eventually those search and rescue efforts turn into recovery efforts and then they turn into you know we've done what we can do and >> um so you know th those ones are really really challenging and and there are a lot of those. As a matter of fact I remember I was relatively still new to Florida and I started reading those. I'm like I'm not taking my boat like any further than I can swim to the shore. It's a little scary. >> [clears throat] >> So, >> um it's been good for me personally because I have a very uh new healthy fear of getting too far out there and having something happened. But yeah, no, those are really challenging and um you know, all the missing persons ones are very very challenging. It's, you know, you just don't know. I I joke all the time and say missing people in Nevada all end up in a mine shaft and I come out here and everybody out here is eaten by an alligator. I mean, everyone's just like, "Oh, they must got eaten by an alligator." I'm like, "How many people get eaten by alligators out here?" I don't know how many [laughter] people end up in mine shafts in Nevada and I don't know how many people end up eaten by alligators out here. But >> you just don't know. You really don't know. And I mean obviously it's uh it's challenging especially, you know, you talk about, you know, Mr. Web and it's like, man, was he a victim of a crime? I'd really like to know that. You know, Raymond Rup, it's a little easier. I I feel very comfortable saying he's a victim of a homicide and we just haven't recovered his body. Uh Mr. Webb, not not so much. As a matter of fact, with some of the odd behavior leading up to his disappearance, I actually kind of default the other way. I don't know what he did. I don't know where he is, but I mean, he definitely engaged in some really odd behavior. And I don't know what happened to him. And so, those are just really challenging because there's only so much you can do. You can only search, you know, and >> you know, I mean, even Robert Hillefrey, the the gentleman that we found, you know, in the submerged car, I mean, I don't know how many times I gone up in the helicopter. I've searched, you know, looking at Google Maps for bodies of water. I felt pretty comfortably had driven into a body of water someplace, but it just, you know, and it really took, you know, the help of of a citizen who liked to looking in bodies of waters for submerged cars. And I mean, how many what did he look in >> hundreds of little lakes before he finally found the right lake? And so, it's it's really really challenging sometimes. And it's genuinely a needle in a hay stack. And so when you talk about people lost at sea, I mean, it's a needle in a really big case. >> Last seen on a spacew walk like good. [laughter] >> I know. >> Just as complicated. >> I just feel bad because I'm like, what do what do you guys go off of there or you just it's just kind of we hope maybe something will come along or >> it's pretty obvious, I think. >> I know. It's just it it's sad. >> Yeah, >> definitely for the families. >> Yeah. No, it is very very sad for sure. >> Yeah. Well, Ron, thank you for coming back and spending some time with us. we just we know we just everybody loves the cold cases and and learning the intricacies of them and of course having this conversation you know always increases the possibility that somebody hears it and we and we jog that memory and of course um you know remind families and friends of of those involved that we're still um looking and talking about it. Um I do want to plug that uh on our on our external website panel sheriff.gov um under the I don't think we have the fancy links for them but we do is at panel sheriff.gov SL >> missing-persons. Okay. And then unsolved-murders. >> Yep. So, if you go on there, it's under the law enforcement tab under investigative um operations, but you can find it there. Uh there's information, these folks names, dates of birth, uh and just some information if you want to do some reading. There's not a ton of detail like we've discussed on some of the cases here, but there's still information there. So, uh just know that here we are always uh Ron and Tom, the mysterious Tom who works with Ron and never likes to talk about it. third cold case detective. >> Third cold case. Yes. >> Who is >> John Syers? >> Sireers. Yeah. >> Who also said he wouldn't come on the podcast, but if you can twist his arm a little bit. >> He said several times. He said >> he's never going to do it. So, >> but those three guys are are working tirelessly to whether it's from random leads in a newspaper article from Ohio they're seeing online or or whatever it is to, you know, just try to bring uh closure uh and accountability. I think as Ron prefers, accountability um in some of these cases. So, uh thanks again for coming on. If you do have any tips, leads, if we've jogged your memory today, please uh give us a call at 582-6200. But if you want to specifically give feedback about the podcast, how might they go about doing that, Laura? >> Uh they can uh email us at let's56pcset.com. [music] That's56pcset.com. [music] >> And we're also on the Graham 56 podcast spelled out. You can connect with us there. Thanks for listening.