There is a man in this recording who has been telling the same short sentence for most of his life. He is seventy-two years old. He has never been charged with anything like this before. yourself? I didn't do it. I didn't know her. I can't tell you what I don't know. How you explained blood on I can't. He says it again about twenty minutes later, and again after that, and by the end of the afternoon he will have said it at least eight separate times. The problem is not that nobody believes him. The problem is the paperwork sitting on the table. The DNA profile obtained from this sample is approximately 1.9 trillion times likely that it originated from Julia That figure comes off a laboratory report, read out loud, in a room in central Florida. And the woman it connects him to had been dead for thirty-three years when he sat down. The road runs east out of Kissimmee, and it has not changed very much in the years since this happened. There is water on one side and low scrub on the other, and on a weekday morning there is almost nobody on it. On a sunny September morning in nineteen ninety-one, a crew of landscapers working that stretch found a woman's body lying in the wild daisies at the side of the road. She had been there a long time before anybody saw her. The barefoot body lay within feet of that busy road for about thirty-six hours, police estimated, in Florida, in September. The location goes into the file as Neptune Road, about half a mile west of Kissimmee Park Road. If you go looking for that junction today, you will not find the name. The road was renamed. It is Old Canoe Creek Road now. She was twenty-seven years old, and her name was Julia Sue Wilbanks. She had been slashed and stabbed repeatedly, and she had been left within feet of a road that people drove down every single day. There is one more thing that went into the file that autumn, and it is the only reason anybody is talking about this case now. Some of the blood on her clothing did not belong to her. The newspaper coverage at the time was short and it was not kind. She had been a cheerleader at the local high school, and by nineteen ninety-one she was using, and the write-up leaned on that harder than it leaned on anything else. Her father was quoted near the bottom of it, and these were his words. She was just a little girl who got a hold of something that wouldn't turn her loose. Just a normal child, until she got messing with that damn stuff. I guess that's the story. It is worth putting all of this on a map, because the geography does something that the words do not. Here is the stretch of road where she was found. Here is the last address anyone had for her, in Kissimmee, a few minutes drive to the west. And here — and investigators would not know this for another thirty-three years — is where a young maintenance worker was living at the time. He was close. The two of them were living in the same few square miles, in the same autumn. Nobody knew that then. Nobody had any reason to look. The detectives on it in ninety-one did the work. They knocked on the doors, they took the statements, and they collected the blood from her clothing and they kept it. There was simply nothing to compare it against. The technology to do anything useful with a small sample of somebody else's blood was still years away, and the men working the case knew that. So the file was written up, and boxed, and it went into storage, and that is where it stayed. This case sat in a box for longer than some of you have been alive, and the only reason anyone is talking about it now is that somebody kept checking. If you want more of these, subscribing genuinely helps us keep making them. Nothing about the morning of the twenty-first of April, twenty twenty-five, looked unusual to the man it was about to happen to. He was in the car with his wife. They were going to the grocery store, and then to a meeting, the way they did most days. He noticed the cars before he understood what they were for. In his own account of it, later that afternoon, he says the number of people there frightened him. We were on our meeting on our way to the grocery store in a meeting this morning when I got pulled over and I freaked when I saw how many people were there. The man being put into that car had worked for the same employer for twenty years. He was a maintenance man at a hospital — the shop that fixes what breaks, the trade you learn by doing it. He had retired not long before this. He was seventy-two. He lived up in Apopka, about an hour north of the road where Julia was found, and by his own description he was at home almost all of the time. His words for it were that he was home twenty-four seven, three sixty-five. side. On your left side. I was working at Eden Health in a maintenance shop and I was trying to bend a piece of angle and somebody walked in. I turned to look at him. I missed it and hit myself in the head and with a with about a threeb sledge and I walked up front and my wife had come to the office to bring me my phone and when I walked by the director's office he said, "What happened?" I said, "My wife hit me." There is one more thing about him, and it runs underneath everything that happens in that room, so it is worth saying plainly now. He was an alcoholic and he had stopped drinking. Four years, the following month. He was going to somewhere between eight and eleven meetings a week, which is a great deal more than most people manage, and his wife went with him to some of them. He talked about the programme the way people do when it has actually saved them. yourself. That was my next question was the AA meeting at the church. Okay. And I go between 8 and 11 meetings a week. My wife goes with me a week. A week. How many meetings a week? 8 from 8 to 11. Monday through Friday at Waka Basics on Bear Lake Road. Monday night happy hour in Castleberry. Two, three nights a week over to Winter "God wises me." And that takes a lot of time to develop that. Mhm. It's been four years. If you work the program, it'll work for you. You can't just go to meetings and say, "I'm sober." Yeah. His neighbours in Apopka were asked about him afterwards, the way neighbours always are, and they said the things neighbours usually say. One of them, a man called Gerald Lamm, put it better than most. He described him as outgoing. He described him as jolly. He said he was a nice fella and that he did not know what had happened, and then he said something people rarely say about a murder defendant. At eleven forty-four that morning they put him in an interview room in St. Cloud with a bottle of water and a folder he had not opened. He folded his sunglasses and set them on the table. Two detectives came in and sat down with him. For the first ten minutes, nobody mentioned a body at all. For the first ten minutes of that interview nobody does anything at all. They talk about his job and his health and how long he has been sober, and he is comfortable, and he is answering. Then one of the detectives puts a sentence on the table that he will not be able to move for the rest of the afternoon. I don't have any answers for you, Gene. I don't believe that. Okay. We wouldn't be sitting here talking to you about this. I know there's a side of the story. Okay. I know you have a side of the story. Everybody has one. Like he's saying, there's a reason why we're here talking to you today. Okay? Your blood was on her. That cannot change. The percentage is 1.6 trillion to one. There's not even a trillion people in the world that we cannot get away from that you can't get away from. Right? So, I know it was a long time ago. Things right? But like I said, we know you were there cuz your blood was there. Watch what he does with that, because he does the same thing with it every single time it comes back. He does not ask who she is. He does not ask when this is supposed to have happened. He goes straight to the sentence. And I know that you've been wanting to try and talk to somebody about this. Okay, now's your opportunity to finally let it out. Okay, and finally get it off. I don't know what you want me to say. I know nothing about this. What? I know that's not true. So, if you're saying you don't know nothing about this, how come the blood was there? I don't know. I don't know that it was. You're telling me it was, but if I wasn't there, how's my blood get there? Good question. That will never change. Like I said before, we're not here to lie. There's only one person that does. I'm going to show you something our good faith. You may think in your mind they may be bluffing, right? I want to prove you can read that detective just said that's what we just got. Come on. You need to know what happened. I do not know. I don't know how my blood is there. I didn't know. woman. You may not own her. That might be true, but there was some type of connection My wife and I was arguing over her daughter. And I put my gun to my head and said, "If it's going to keep being like this, I don't care to be here." I set it back down. I left. I come back in to get the gun because I figured she'd do away with it. She did. I went to work. I went in the maintenance shop. I think it was a Sunday. They were closed. Don't ask me why, but you're not allowed to smoke in the building. I come outside to smoke. Sheriffs were there. She had found my car. She was in the parking lot, too. They come and got me. The that her daughter always had to have her nose in it and I was trying to explain to my wife how pissed off I was about it and I know some of the statements you made to those deputies. Okay. I don't remember. You said I can't tell you what really happened cuz if I did I wouldn't be it because of this? No. I just told you what that was about. Her That is three times in eleven minutes, and it is the same construction each time, almost word for word. The detectives change the angle. They try the victim, they try the science, they try his memory. It does not matter which door they come through. The sentence is waiting for them. I don't know anything, sir. I can't tell you what I don't know. I appreciate that. Did you help her? I don't know anything about her. That's where the problem was. Your blood I noticed you've been looking at the About forty-seven minutes in, one of them tries something else. He has been listening to this man talk about recovery all afternoon, and he knows that the ninth step of that programme is making amends — going back to the people you hurt while you were drinking, and putting it right where you can. So he asks him whether there is anyone he still owes that to. And the answer comes back in the exact language of the thing that saved his life. we got to figure this out. You battled that anger and fear the last 30 years when this happened. Okay. You've made amends in every other way and then corrected every other thing about your life. But we haven't made amends and fix this. Okay. It's time that we can take care of this. I don't have amends to make here. I don't know where I didn't do it. I'm sorry. I got Now, you don't have to be sorry to us, the problem is the But I did not intend on shooting myself. Why you put a gun to your head? because I was trying to get her to see how upset I was. That's going like a thousand%. There have been many, many arguments over it and she wouldn't have listened. So, I thought if I did something drastic, maybe she'd stop and listen. Did she stop and listen? Years later, after we got sober. So, right then and then or shortly thereafter, that didn't change anything. No, because I still drank. The wife drank. Nothing changed until almost four years ago when she damn near died. Right. The daughter sent her a message that said she was doing her homework for her step work and the daughter called. She said, "I'm doing homework right now." Daughter texted her said, "Let me know when you have time for me." For two freaking years, the daughter hadn't got in contact with her. And when she did, she said, "You know, I have to go to counseling over this." I said to Cindy, and well, she called. I said, "That was something really cool to your mom. When you know what she's battling with, you got to be the victim on it." Last time she's even come around There is one more thing he does not know while all of this is going on, and it changes how you hear the whole conversation. He believes he is talking his way out of a misunderstanding. But a judge had already looked at the file that morning, and a judge had already signed an arrest warrant with his name on it. He was never going home. there is contact. That's the only way. that's what we're dealing with right now. And like I said, this has been presented to a judge. Judge signed an arrest warrant for you. So the judge is looking at the evidence and he has everything. They're not talking to us. He's looking this is this gentleman's blood? This is his DNA. Where was his DNA? What DNA? Where are the different types of DNA?" Blood. Okay. Where was the blood on the victim? be. That's how you know. I'm trying to think. I didn't have anything to do with anything. Then who had, sir? Then who had that? You didn't have nothing to do with anything. Who had something to do with it? I know nothing about it. I don't I didn't hurt her. I don't know who did. And you're saying you don't know how your blood got on her? Yes, sir. I'm saying that. Okay. Nobody's going to leave you. Okay. Nobody's a juryy's not going to believe me. Okay. A juryy's going to think he's saying or through his attorney, he's going to say A, B, and C. And they're going to go that's not plausible. It's not like she was wearing your shoes. She was wearing your socks. Okay? She may have stolen it. Okay? You may have thrown it out and she found it and put it off. Do you understand what I'm trying to say to you? I understand what you're saying. I've to you? I understand what you're saying. I've cleaned up a lot of [__] in the last four years. I can't clean out what I don't have anything to do with. I can see you waiting on I can see it in your eyes and it's weighed on you for this the entire time since this An hour and ten minutes into the afternoon, one of the detectives stops arguing with him and starts reading. What he reads out is not a summary and it is not an accusation. It is a laboratory report, and it is written in the flat, hedged, deeply boring language that laboratory reports are always written in. That is exactly what makes it land. Nobody in the room raises their voice for this next part. The DNA profile obtained from this sample is approximately 1.9 trillion times likely that it originated from Julia Wilbanks and Gene Stuller. Remember there not even a trillion people in the world. Couple millions but not trillions. Gene Stuller cannot be excluded as contributor to this DNA profile obtained. The chance that an unrelated person chosen at random from the general population would be included as a contributor to this DNA profile is approximately one in every 930 septillion individuals. There's never even been subtillion amount of people on Earth. That's why we're here. That's why we're here. This is your chance. I was just about to say that this is the opportunity right now to finally lay out everything cuz your blood ended up here and like he just said your blood's not going to fall from the sky. You're not it's not going to come out of your mouth like saliva. Something happened to cause your blood to end up on her right here. Her right there. Okay. It was right here on her shorts. That's a fact, right? Proven by That's a fact, right? Proven by evidence, right? That's not going to change that. It will not change. So in your mind, well, it could be an error. No, we had this tested several times, especially when we checked you out and It is worth slowing down on how they got there, because the answer is not one breakthrough. It is people refusing to close a box for thirty-three years. The blood from her clothing went into a national database back in twenty twelve, and for thirteen more years it sat there matching nobody. What changed was not the sample. What changed was the number of ordinary people who spat into a tube for a hobby, and put the result on a website. Genealogical analysis does not hand you a suspect. It hands you a family. It tells you that whoever left that blood is somewhere on this branch of this tree, and then human beings do the rest of it — the census records, the old addresses, the process of elimination — until the branch narrows to one man who was living a few minutes from her, in the autumn of nineteen ninety-one. How often do you and your wife go to Keller Barbecue? Oh, at least a couple times a week. Okay, we've been watching you and we collected your DNA for comparison for this and then it was a match with those numbers that I just read to you. Okay, this is how we got here. And that wasn't cheap. Take it from me. It's not cheap. So Gene, we know something happened. Okay, it's time to give yourself some closure for this. By March of twenty twenty-five they were fairly sure. What they did not have was his DNA, and asking for it would have told him they were coming. So they did what police in this position do. They followed him, and they waited for him to put something in a bin. According to the police account of it, what they recovered was a drinking straw he had used and thrown away. since this year some months to be able to identify it and get it tested and get us in the direction of you and then we start looking into you. Okay, this guy's got no history, nothing, right? Couple DUIs, a drug charge, that's it. And then we go, we do some surveillance on you and we collect the sample of your DNA. that we get it tested by the same lab that's tested these shorts and the blood that happened from this incident and it's a match. Yeah. They didn't say it's a partial match. You said what? And they didn't say it was a partial match. The amount of match they're talking about not that many humans ever born. You heard the numbers. Yeah. like something happened between the two of you that resulted in your blood ending up on her. And the only person that's going to be able to give us what happened is you. I can't give it to you. Okay. Okay. Evidence doesn't lie. And that's why I'm in here because I need to figure it out how that's possible. I don't have an answer. I keep saying I So, we can agree that you lived in CMI in 1991, right? Probably. Yeah. And I know for a fact that this woman lived in CMI in 1991. You mentioned you had a cocaine problem back then. This woman had a cocaine problem back then. You mentioned that you had some interactions with sex workers back then. No. Well, police said you got you got laid in a sex club. Oh, mouseet trap up in Orlando. Okay. Like dated some of the people that worked there. Well, went out with him. You could technically call them sex workers then if they provided you services for money. Okay. This woman was a sex worker. I don't know that she worked there. She more or le as far as I know worked He does not know any of that until the detective decides to tell him. And when he does tell him, he tells it slowly, in order, like a man laying out a hand of cards. You could technically call them sex workers then if they provided you services for money. Okay. This woman was a sex worker. I don't know that she worked there. She more or le as far as I know worked the streets, but she also frequented areas like McLaren Circle, which you said you frequented. No, I said I went once and then was sent back in. Okay. Because I got stopped on the way out. You went there with the intent to buy cocaine. Yes, sir. And she also used cocaine. You said you had an alcohol problem, right? That caused you to have blackouts. I have blacked out drinking. Yes. And the fact that you cannot explain how your blood ended up on a this woman's shorts. You don't think that be could be because of your drug and alcohol use? That maybe you had some sort of blackout? Maybe you were with this woman one night. When I blacked out, I was mostly at home and lived in Orlando where I live now. U there was a 10-year period where I didn't go to meetings, but I was sober What is remarkable about the next hour is that it does not break him. He does not get angry and he does not stop talking. He starts offering explanations instead, and they are all explanations for the same thing — how his blood could be somewhere without him. A fall in the garage. A gash in his head he only found the next day. That maybe you had some sort of blackout? Maybe you were with this woman one night. When I blacked out, I was mostly at home and lived in Orlando where I live now. U there was a 10-year period where I didn't go to meetings, but I was sober because of my wife cuz her first husband was a alcoholic. Okay. But in 1991, you were not sober. No. Off and on. In 1991, you were using drugs and alcohol at the same time. I would imagine then yes. You would imagine? I Yeah, I drank and I because I was going to NA and AA. Is there a lot from that time period that you can't remember? No, I can probably tell you where I worked and what I drove and But how about when you weren't at work and when you weren't driving? When you were out enjoying your weekend off or your nights having some drinks, having some cocaine. I very sleen drank out. Too expensive to drink out. I drink at home. This last That's where we were drinking before we got sober. And when the drinking comes up, it stops being a defence and starts being a problem, because a man who cannot account for his own evenings cannot account for that one either. Somewhere after the second hour something in him gives, but it does not give in the direction they need. He is not about to confess. He is about to cry, and the reason he gives for crying is not guilt. It is that he genuinely does not understand how any of this is happening to him. the shorts she was wearing when she was stabbed 17 times and dumped on the side of a highway. I don't have a side of the story. Okay. Just wanted to give you an opportunity if you had a side to air it out. I don't have a side of the story. Because that, like I said, that's the story that we put forward to the judge. That's the story that the judge signed an arrest warrant on. That's the story that your parents are going to hear, that your wife is going to hear. It's the story I'm going to tell them if I have the opportunity, which is what? To make a phone call. My wife know what's going on. He told me I would get to do that. Oh, okay. I understand. So that's the story you're going to tell them that your blood ended up on a murder victim's shorts. A murder victim who stabbed 17 times and dumped on the side of the highway. And you can't provide any explanation of why? That's what I will tell my wife. Yes. control of Chief Gerby and is now being kept in and of premises and courage. I'm sorry, no Gene Stuller in the control of your hereby request the court's permission to obtain a DNA standard from Gene A Stuller via vehicle swab and obtain Stuller's fingerprints for the continuation of the investigation in violation of Florida State Statute. Florida State statute 784.04 subsection 2 seconddegree murder and Florida State statute 406.123B disturbing a dead body or clothing article nearby and whereas a copy of which is incorporated in herein attached hereto the fact establishing the grounds for the application being set forth in the affidavit of detective decl or either of you which such lawful assistance as may be necessary and A They tell him he is going to be booked into the jail. He asks about phone calls. He talks about his wife, and about the fact that he has been at home almost every day since he retired, and there is a stretch in here where he sounds less like a suspect and more like somebody describing a life that has just ended. know there's a possibility that you'll spend the rest of your life in prison. Yes, sir. That's what I'm figuring right now. You seem very calm for a person who's being accused of a violent murder. Like not shocked. I don't know what to do. I'm scared as hell. I don't know. My insides are like this. not know what to do. I hear you're saying that, what to do. I hear you're saying that, but that's not the reaction that I'm seeing. Your body language isn't showing that. Your body language is speaking with someone used to be acting. Well, I've seen people who are accused of things they didn't do, and they're it's a different reaction. Not all of them have the same reaction, but it's very different from the reaction that you're having now. The reaction that you're having now is one of content. Like it finally caught up with you and you've just given up and you have nothing to say. Not surprised, not angry, not confused, just content. No, I'm not content. I'm scared as hell and I'm worried for my wife. You're telling me that I'm there. I'm But you admit that you did drink and you used cocaine and you weren't always working. Yeah. So on those nights and weekends where you were not at work and you were drinking and you were using cocaine, how was your memory then? Can you remember every one of those nights? Can you remember the final? No. So, is it possible that you met up with this other cocaine user? Maybe you guys hung out together. Maybe it was just an acquaintance. Maybe she tried to sell you drugs. Maybe she tried to steal your drugs and maybe something happened. Maybe there was an argument. Maybe there was a fight. Maybe she stabbed you first. But there's got to be a reason. There's got to be an explanation for how your blood ended up on her shorts. I don't have a clue. A girl does not ring a bell. I'm sure I would remember that crap. I would hope you'd remember it just because of how intense the situation probably played You're telling me that I'm there. I'm You're telling me that I'm there. I'm telling you I wasn't. I don't know what to do. What good is it going to do me to kick and scream and cuss and carry on? I've learned to be a little better than that. It won't do you any good, but that is the most common reaction for someone accused of something this violent when they know that they're innocent of it. In my head, what I've learned to believe is this will work out the way God wants it to work out. That's the spirituality that I've learned through the AA program. Things take care of themselves. It doesn't do me any good to kick and scream. And then, right at the end of it, one of the detectives says something that almost nobody who covers this case has bothered to play you. He is not performing and he is not bluffing. He tells this man that for months, while they were watching him, he had been arguing the other side of it with his own colleagues — that this did not look like a cold-blooded killer to him, that there had to be an explanation, and that he had been looking forward to hearing it. watching you a long time. a long time. And in that time, I had several conversations with other detectives, and I said, "This guy doesn't strike me as a cold-blooded killer. There's got to be an explanation." I was so looking forward to this day that we finally get to bring you in and I get to hear your side of the story. And that's what I'm disappointed in, that you have no side of the story, right? And now I'm left to deal with the evidence we have, which is you're just a cold-blooded killer. The end. Not the ending I was looking for. He was arrested that afternoon and charged with second-degree murder, and with disturbing a dead body. He has not been convicted of anything. He is awaiting trial, and everything you have heard him say is a denial he has never taken back. Two days after all of that, detectives brought in the one person who had known him the longest. This part of the record runs for nearly two hours, and as far as we can tell, nobody covering this case has used a second of it. That is a shame, because the most useful thing anybody says about Gene Stuller is said by his younger brother. man. That's a strong woman. She is. So anyways, just to give you a little backstory. Absolutely. And I have four sisters. I'm sure you're aware of that. All right. Uh I can tell you this right now. My sisters know absolutely nothing. Yeah. I And you pick the right person cuz I do know him. I know him very well. We live together. I've seen things and but uh the thing about it is on this case what's happening here. I am oblivious. Okay. And I will tell you why. I met a wonderful woman, got married, had two children with her, was with her for approximately 15 years, and then she died in 2001 of cancer. I raised my two children till two when they grew up and left, and then I met a wonderful woman who you met yesterday who for some strange reason adors me and married. And so, you know, Gene would come in and out of my life during that time. So, as far as, you know, 1991, September, I can tell you exactly what I was going through, and I had no clue on any of that. But, for example, August 5th, He is not there to defend him and he is not there to hand him over. He spends most of it doing something harder, which is trying to describe an ordinary older brother honestly to two men who are investigating a murder. He talks about growing up with him. He is careful, and he is fond of him. Yeah. 10 years apart. Yeah. Almost exactly. My birth today is his birthday. week. Mine was mine was last Tuesday or 8 days, you know, 10 years, eight days. So, I mean, I mean, he was my he's my big brother. I mean, I never had a brother and I was happy to have him. And we you know, brothers, things happen. Of course, we're brothers. I know. I understand exactly where it come from. But, you know, we you know, if he had a problem and he needed my help, I'd be there to help him. But I didn't get a lot of calls who, you know, except, hey, can you pick me up in jail and I need a ride or hey, I'm moving. Can you help me move? You know, something like that. Uh, in 2004, my house was destroyed by Hurricane Charlie. Uh, I used his OCD in my advantage. We're packing everything out of the house and putting it in a one of those things that are dropped off in your driveway and you can put them in their Storage unit. I can't think of the name Storage unit. I can't think of the name of them. I rented when I got the last one in Orlando. I dropped it off. So now I'm taking everything out of a three-bedroom, two bath garage house with just me and my two children. And And then he tells them about their father, and about a sentence their father used to say to him, and it lands harder than anything the detectives manage in two and a half hours. He says his father used to tell him that at least he had one good son. He says he has never repeated that to Gene. You can hear him decide, in real time, that he is going to say it anyway. he kept saying to Gene when he would see him, you know what happened to your grandfather? Don't let this happened to you. So, he was very disappointed in Gene. And he would say to me, "At least I have one good son." And I've never told Gene that, but it hurts me because I mean, I get chills in my arm. But uh when I was saying goodbye to him Monday, he grabbed my arms and he squeezed tight and he looked at me and I went, "Dad, you don't have to say anything." And he gave me a big hug. And that was Yeah, that was it. So I He's just very disappointed that he's even in this situation. Yeah. I mean, of course, any parent would be I mean, this is his only son. Yeah. Um he said so his kind of worst years was 87 to 94. Yeah. And that's when he was like relapsing pretty bad. So he's trying to keep clean and drinking relapse. 88 was the worst. That's when the crack got involved. Okay. Um you know you kind of knew him back then. You've seen him. How bad do you think it was for him? Like how bad was he acting back then? and someone in their neighborhood had a Rottweiler but it was always in the fence when yell he was went to somebody and was having some beers with the neighbor and he was walking through the field and that Rottweiler was out ran across the field attacked him. He said he threw up his left arm. Rottweiler grabbed a hold of it. Of course, the Rwaters trying to pull him down. And he told me, he says, "I knew if I went down, I was dead." He says, "Dan," he says, "I punched it in the head as hard as I could, and it would not let go." He said, "So, the only thing I could think of was this." He stuck his thumb in the Rottweiler's eye and killed it. He went back and he went to the neighbor. The person on the says, "I'm sorry, but I had to kill your Rottweiler." And he went home and the guy's yelling and screaming at him, he went home and while he was bandaging up, the police came. The guy called the cops on him and the cops were just like, you know, "Hey, we understand." Yeah. And uh but that neighbor kept harassing him about killing his dog and making threats. Luckily, his lease was up and he left that neighborhood. But, you know, he think some things something like that. So, he's he did what he had to do to get that dog Late in that interview they ask him the question everybody asks a suspect's family. He does not say his brother did it, and he does not say his brother did not. What he offers is a guess, and he labels it a guess himself. you what I know. And as far as what Gene was doing during those times, I was involved in my own life a lot. Mhm. Yeah. I mean, so what kind of involvement do you think he could have played in this cuz somehow his blood ends up on her? I don't if he didn't do it, he knows who did. I mean, that's my speculation. Because if his blood's on or his DNA Yeah. That's the only two things I can think of. That's the only two things. Okay. Let's see. If he knows who did it, say he was there for him at least. Do you think he would have helped get rid of the body if he thought he had trouble? I do not know. I do not know what his mindset during those years were. I do not know anything like that. I can't speculate on that. I don't want to speculate on it. You ever talk about Cyclone? What's that? Did he ever talk about Cyclone? What's that? Did he ever talk about Cyclone? No. No. No. I know in the early 80s as far as going out drinking. I had been with him at this brass rail in the Starlight, but that was when he first came here because he liked to go to those type of bars There is one more thing about that interview, and it is the reason it exists at all. Before he came in, word reached him from the family that Gene's wife had got a public defender, and that nobody was to speak to the police. He got that message. He had already made the appointment. And he drove to the station and sat down with two detectives anyway, and the reason he gives for it is four words long. It is not any chance. And I'm sorry I'm getting upset, but that's I came here to tell you what I knew and what was there. I was asked not to come here. I was asked not to come here by his wife said that they has obtained an attorney, public defender, and not to speak to the police. What was she worried you'd tell us? I have no idea. But this is all I heard. This was from one of my sisters. And I said, I've already made the appointment to come here. And I said, and I told my sister why I said I would come. And I am a man of my word. If I'm saying I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it as much as I can. And it's because I asked you, I want my parents left out of this. I will come and I will talk to you. I will tell you anything you want to know which I don't know much but I came here to tell you and I've been honest with you but I just would like my parents to be left out because they do not need this. They are healthy. They still have their minds and it isn't going to be much A jury will decide what happened on that road in nineteen ninety-one, and it has not happened yet. What is already decided is the part nobody argues about. A twenty-seven-year-old woman was left at the side of a road outside St. Cloud, and she stayed in a box for thirty-three years, and somebody kept checking. Her name was Julia Sue Wilbanks.