I'm not going to argue with you. >> It's illegal. I have not done anything wrong. >> Put your Put this down. You're not putting this back on and you're not leaving. >> Yes, I am. Like, go where my stuff is. I didn't do anything. >> You're trying to leave and that's not happening. >> On March 4th, 2024, a loss prevention officer at a Kohl's in Florida watched a woman conceal merchandise under her jacket and walk out without paying. What followed was a 21-minute detention that raised real questions about consent, custody, and the limits of a Terry stop. The officer's authority to detain her came from Terry versus Ohio. That 1968 Supreme Court decision allows police to stop someone short of a full arrest when they have reasonable articulable suspicion, not proof, just specific articulable facts pointing to criminal conduct. >> Like the Sephora and everything. Uh >> So, she was at Sephora? >> Yeah, there's a Sephora inside of Kohl's. I was watching the cameras. I saw that she had a bag like underneath her jacket, which I thought was strange. I started to watch on cameras and and I saw that she would select items off the shelves, put them in the bag. The bag was getting bigger and then eventually she exited the store without paying. I confronted her and said, "Hey, I'm loss prevention with Kohl's. I'd like you to, you know, give me my stuff back." She feigned ignorance. I don't know what you're talking about. Man, get away from me. I don't have nothing. I said, "Why don't you just give me the stuff back? We'll trespass you, you know, you're on your way." She said, "I don't have anything. Get away from me." And then she she ran from Kohl's over this way. She went into Firestone here and her bag was very full at that time. >> Mhm. >> Um matter of fact, that's that's what I have on video here of here. You can see her bag is so so full. >> Okay. >> And then when when she came out of the bathroom there, I didn't follow her into the bathroom. I just waited, you know. And then when she came out, her bag was flat like a pancake. >> Okay. >> And so obviously I knew something had to be going on in the bathroom. >> stuff you recovered from there? >> Correct. Correct. So, she ran to Merlin and she was detained or how what is whatever's going on over there. >> So, you you already you already moved the stuff over there, right? >> I Huh? >> You already removed the stuff, right? >> No. No, this bag is just as is as I found it. >> Okay. >> I didn't do nothing with it. I just came outside that way we don't disrupt I didn't want to disrupt their business. >> Okay. Oh, then okay. >> I didn't go through this yet, but I know it I just took a peek, and I seen a couple things of clothes like that, so I know I know what's in there. >> Uh you want um since you have a moment, do you mind pulling them out? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, let me just save this real quick. >> All right, cool. >> Hello, ma'am. Hi. >> He was following me, chasing me across traffic. >> Okay. Probably cuz maybe you had stuff that didn't belong to you. >> He's accusing me of that now. I didn't do anything wrong. >> Okay. >> He said >> So, if nothing happened >> I said you can trespass me, and I said that's fine. You can trespass me. >> Okay. >> I said I've been walking today. >> Did you want to talk with me outside? Just so we're not in the middle of a doctor's office. >> I called my husband because he would not stop following me. Like he he like chased me all the way across the street. I had to like run through oncoming traffic to try to get away from him. >> Understood. Yeah, so we're we'll make it right, whatever's going on. Um first and foremost, so I like to um stay safe, and so he the guy who is following you, he called us. Um and then I guess did you also call us as well? >> Yeah, but I don't know if I didn't get routed to the right place or what. >> It it did come through, but >> I hung up when I got in here. The lady let me in here, and she said she would call the police, and I said okay, and they said I could sit down. >> Yeah, so it did come through. >> Hello. >> All right. Um so first first and foremost, uh I just want to make sure everyone's safe. Um >> Yeah, so could you walk me Can you Can you escort me away from him somewhere he can't follow me anymore? >> So, he is not here. So, he was here, and he's over at Firestone now. Um because I guess that's where you were, and um it was believed that maybe some property that was in your bag might be in there. >> I have no have anything >> So, that Um so, there was mention that you mentioned him that you're armed and maybe that's just because you were scared. Um so >> It wasn't because I'm scared. I do I can shoot I I do I don't want to go reaching in my bag >> No, that's okay. >> I can take it off. I can hand it to you if that makes you more comfortable. I can take my jacket off and hand it to you. >> Okay. Now, do you have any weapons currently? >> Okay. >> I said that because I was terrified and obviously he didn't care cuz he kept following me. >> Yeah, understood. Um would I be able to search your bag and make sure? >> Yeah. >> Check for any stolen items or >> I can pull this out so you can see my concealed permit. >> Well, um do you have the weapon on you? >> No. >> Then I'm not too concerned. Here, um here, we'll wait by my car. It's a nice safe area here. Um So, he's nowhere near here. So, I He's right across the street. >> me across the street once. Like, what's to stop him from >> He's not So, I've I I know him. Um because he works at Kohl's and he >> So, he >> chases a woman. Like, I had several old men ask me if I needed help. I had people like >> Um so, let's start with the bag thing. So, uh you said no weapons and no stolen property in your bag or anything like that. >> Nope. >> Okay. Is Is it okay if I search it and make sure? >> Yeah. >> And your jacket? 218. Thank you. All right. I'm right outside the front door. Well, other than this, how how's your day? How's your day going other than this craziness, right? >> first scary encounter with a man in my life. >> Oh, boy. >> I'm out walking to my errands. I went into Kohl's to look for something and I am walking out. I'm like almost out of the parking lot. This guy is running after me. Like, I don't know who he is. He's like in that >> Is it okay if I take your ID out? >> I was going to tell you absolutely. Yeah, it's out and >> Okay. >> Um Uh well No, cuz you don't need that. >> Okay. Well, as soon as uh it's determined whether a crime was or was not committed, um I will get that. >> commit a crime. >> Well, we're going to find out. >> I don't have anything on me. I don't I did not commit a crime. >> Okay. So, I'm just saying that because that guy's accusing you of it. >> Yeah, I know, but I don't have anything on me. I I didn't I did not steal anything from there. >> So, so we're going to check the cameras at Kohl's and if it's determined that you did, then I will get your ID. That's how that works. Okay? >> Okay, so I can leave in the meantime. >> Nope. You're detained, not allowed to leave. If you try to leave, you'll be arrested. >> you detain me when I haven't committed a crime? >> Because someone Excuse me. >> him of a crime and you're not detaining him. >> One second. He had a phone call. Hey. >> Are you done? >> No. It's possible. Um but go to a Firestone, so we we first have to confirm whether a crime was committed or not. The bag that she had uh was full of stuff before she went to Firestone. Upon leaving Firestone, it's empty, so it's believed that items were discarded inside of Firestone's bathroom. So, go over there, um take pictures of the bathroom. Um just take pictures whether there's stuff in there or not. Um recover the property if any. Then we got to go back to Kohl's, watch surveillance, go from there. Um So, at the end of the day, loss prevention um accusing her of stealing and then >> someone not saying you did >> that Okay. Yes, I did. >> So, you're not leaving. If you leave, you're going to go to jail right now. So, you're staying right here. >> That's how it works. >> No, it's not. I already explained that to you, right? >> I know my rights and I have not done anything wrong. You cannot detain me. >> Someone will accuse you of a crime. >> I'm accusing him of a crime and you're not detaining him. >> So, he's called security? >> It doesn't matter who he is. You cannot harass people. You cannot put your hands on people. You cannot chase people. I'm a female. >> We're not holding court in the streets right here, okay? This is how it's going to work. You're going to stay here until we figure out what's going on. >> You know that that's illegal. >> So, okay. I'm not going to argue with you. >> It's illegal. I have not done anything wrong. >> Put your purse Put this down. You're not putting this back on and you're not leaving. >> Yes, I am. Let go of my stuff. >> No. You're trying to leave and that's not happening. Until we figure out what's going on. Let Let go of the jacket. Let go of the Let go of the jacket. >> There's nothing in it. >> You have no right to leave right now and you're not leaving. So, you're being detained until we figure out what's going on. >> Oh my god. Oh my god. I know my [ __ ] rights. You guys are going to be in so much trouble. >> Okay. Well, you're being detained >> please let go? How far am I going to get with [ __ ] cuffs on? >> I don't know. >> Calm down. Seriously. Calm down. >> You're the one who got uncalm and it's on your purse. >> Yeah, cuz you're trying to leave. >> Is your body camera on? I was trying to put my jacket on. I wanted my stuff back. He searched my jacket. He searched my purse. Listen. >> I I understand. So, >> You searched my jacket. You searched my purse. It's windy. I wanted my jacket back on. That's it. You're the one who got violent. >> trying to leave the scene and that's not >> trying to leave. >> You just told me you were leaving and you were putting your jacket on and walking away. What are What are talking about? >> Okay. okay, understand. I understand. >> Okay. Thank you. So, what we're going to do, I'm going to have you sit on this bench. And then once we're and then we're going to play the waiting game. >> Can you please take these off of me? >> No. >> They're hurting. >> They're not meant for comfort and >> I didn't do anything wrong. They are hurting me. I have >> Okay, so how about this? How about you work with us cuz we're being nice to you. >> You weren't being nice to me. You weren't. >> But if we can all agree to be nice, I will you please take them off? >> I'll get down and notch. >> I wasn't yelling. I never yelled at you. >> Then say Yeah, actually you did. But that's irrelevant to right now cuz it's not a big deal. But let us figure out our job and figure out what's going on here. And if nothing happened, you'll be on your way. >> And then you're going to be [ __ ] sued for doing this to me. >> what you need to do. >> Yeah, because I know you're illegally holding me. >> Okay for now. That's fine and dandy. All right, let's go sit over here on this bench. Let's go sit over on this bench. >> I would like my property, please. >> Come sit over on this bench. >> please put the property on the >> to sit on the bench or in the car? >> No, I want to sit on the bench. >> Okay, then let's come sit on the bench over here. All right, so I'm going to read you your rights now. >> I didn't do anything. >> And I'm going to take your ID out. >> I didn't >> And I'm going to run your name. That's how that works. >> I didn't I did not steal anything. I don't have anything This is illegal. >> Doink. >> This is illegal. >> No, it's not. >> Yes, it is. And and if you don't I'm not surprised you don't know it because a lot of officers don't understand the law though. >> There was someone that came from Kohl's and I we're investigating a theft there. Um and basically just wanted to get a quick statement and then like, yep, that's what I saw. Um and just So whenever we get a statement is I have you like raise your hand and say, yep, I'm telling the truth and all that. So um there's just like a little spiel that I get from you if that's cool. Um it's easiest for me Do you have your ID handy? You're any relation to Mike Jim Caston? >> Yep. You know Mikey? >> Yep. >> What's cool Mikey? >> That's cool. >> And Paul and my other brother Joe. >> Very cool. Yeah, and then you probably know Marion then maybe? >> I've heard the name but you're talking I haven't seen Mike in 16 years. >> Oh okay, so it's been a while. Yeah. But yeah, he's still around. He's building houses in the area. >> Yeah, he was a beast in high school dude. >> Yeah? >> Yeah, he's a beast. Mean dude, he was a mean ball hog. >> Yeah, right. >> [laughter] >> So, what did you observe and we'll go from there? >> Uh she came running in. Didn't say a word, went straight to the bathroom. >> Okay. >> Locked the door. We heard rustling. And then we heard the toilet flush like three times. >> At least three or four. >> Yeah, it was like three or four times. So, I don't know if she flushed some extra stuff down the toilet. And then she stuffed what all the other stuff down into the trash can. >> Yeah, she she jammed all in the bag and then uh she acted like she was on her phone. And she acted like she was calling the police. And she was saying that I'm really scared right now. Uh this guy keeps following me. And then she left our door. She I he wasn't here for this cuz he went She left our door and then she went >> And just if if you don't mind just so I'm like I guess properly doing the way I'm supposed to do things. >> Yes, I swear. >> Would >> [laughter] >> Would I be able to get like a separate statement from you right after him? You would like the same thing where I >> Oh okay. >> Would that be cool? >> I don't care. It's up to you. Whatever makes it easier for you. >> I guess that's that's what they want me to do. That way it's not I don't know. I'm sorry. I didn't want to be rude in any way. >> [laughter] >> Uh yeah. >> All right, so she she went in the bathroom, uh heard rustling. She uh flushed three or four times. Then what did you see? >> Uh she walked out like he was saying it was like she was talking on the phone like she was talking to somebody and she went out here and got confronted by that I guess someone that worked over at Kohl's that had followed her over here. >> Okay. >> And they were like a little bit of banter back and forth outside and then they kind of took off and then I guess she had ditched all the merchandise or whatever she stole. >> And do I back up or what? >> Okay. Did you guys see that stuff or was that found later? >> It was found later after she had left. We had after another officer had pulled up we had found it in the trash can pulled it out. >> Got you. Was that found with the officer or >> I'm not sure actually. I'm going to >> But you just know of that property was found. >> property was found cuz I like you said I had left the front seat back door. >> Got you. And did you notice was she carrying anything with her? >> When she walked in you could tell that she had it. Like her purse was hanging out from under her >> coat. >> Okay. >> And when she came back out >> Like there was no noticeable purse. >> No noticeable like when she came in it looked like she was carrying a whole lot of stuff. When she left it looked like she didn't have nothing on. >> Got it. I'm not using the phone right now, okay? >> I have I'm Look. >> You know >> Look under my sleeve. >> you. But we're not using the phone right now. >> my sleeve up. >> What's wrong? >> Pick up my sleeve. >> Which one? >> You have this you have permission to pick up my right sleeve. >> reason? >> So you can see that I have >> Okay. Do you need you want EMS to come check you out right now? We have no problem doing that. >> No. All I need to do is check if you can corroborate what I'm saying if you look at my sleeve. >> sleeve. But it's fine but you're not calling anybody to come over here. So go ahead. >> anybody. You can watch me do it. >> Okay. >> I can do it. >> Would you like EMS to come check you out for your blood pressure? >> No, that's not my blood pressure. >> Would you like them to come check you out for >> Thank you. >> Okay. >> I'm not calling anybody. He knows what's going on. >> Cool. >> Can you please press it? Can you please it I just >> let you check your phone. >> I just got an alarm that it's really high. >> Okay, which one? >> I don't need EMS. >> It would probably be in your best interest to bring my phone back over here. >> No, it's not going to happen right now. >> It's too far away from me and you're denying me of my personal medical device. >> Was it Harvard or Stanford? Which one was it? >> You can't do that. It's illegal. >> Actually, we can. And I actually should be taking that purse off of you right now, but I'm going to leave it there for right now. >> take it off. >> Okay. Well, lean forward for me. You cannot have access to this right now. >> Oh, you it's >> Is it Is this going to be able to go over your head or you want to take the Let's take the cuff off first. Stand up for me. Could you stand up for me? >> No. >> I can probably loosen them for you a little bit, too, if they're too tight. Okay. Well, I would I'm going to take that off of you, so stand up for me. Don't make this more difficult than it has to be. You can't have your purse right now. >> Why? >> Stand up. >> You need to give me back >> I do not need to give that back to you right now. >> It's >> You can put it out of my reach, but it needs to be on the camera. >> but you're not going to No, it does not. Stand up for me right now. >> I'm not arguing with you. Stand up. >> a seven on it. It's a medical device. >> EMS come check you out right now. I'm not going to argue with you. Stand up. >> provide healthy care. He is denying me my rights >> for my medical device. He has it too far away from me. >> Why are you making this more difficult than it needs to be? >> on? >> It is on. Yes, it is. >> I want it this on the camera. >> but you need to stand up so I can remove that off of you. >> Because when you >> Stand up. >> are in trouble for denying me my medical device. >> told that 3 million times. Never happened once cuz I do my job properly and I do it right. >> If you do your job properly, you would put the phone closer >> You know what you did, and you're in this predicament for a certain reason. >> You can hold the phone while you stand back and that would be >> Listen. Listen to me. This That's irrelevant right now. Listen to me. Before you do anything, I'm taking you Listen to me for a second. >> No, I want the camera to know that he's squeezing the handcuffs hard on purpose for no reason. >> the handcuffs off. I'm holding your hand about to take the cuff off. >> You're squeezing the handcuffs onto my wrist and there'll be red marks when they come off. >> I'm taking this cuff off but before I do >> I'm not going anywhere. >> You do not go anywhere or do not flail. >> I'm not going to flail. >> Okay. >> I might lift up my hand so your your your camera can see that he squeezed it so hard that I have red marks. >> Stay still for me a sec. >> I did because I'm innocent. I didn't do anything wrong. >> Sure. >> And you're manhandling me. >> I'm not manhandling you. >> And you're refusing to give me I was just getting my hair out of my way. You're refusing me access >> You're right, I am. To your property. That will save your life? >> Yes. >> EMS is coming right now to check you out. >> about it? You must not. >> You're right, I'm not a doctor. >> And that's why >> That's why EMS is coming to check you out. So please sit down. >> problem. That's why I told you nicely >> That's fine. I got you. EMS is going to check you out. I'm not arguing with you. You're not going to have your property right now. >> I didn't say I said you can hold it. >> So right here on the vehicle it's not going anywhere. >> I know it's too far away from me to be effective. >> Okay. >> That's why I said you can hold it. You have my permission to hold it. >> I I don't I don't I don't >> I know you don't want to because you're you would like to deny me life saving my medical device. >> Okay. >> You could be reasonable and you could be holding it in your hand right now. >> No, you can be reasonable too not do certain things but I'm sorry. >> do anything. >> Okay. >> Okay, that's fine. I don't need any medical attention. >> We're going to use ours and check you out. >> I don't need any medical attention. I don't want medical attention. >> We're going to check you out. >> I don't want medical attention. I I want you to explain to him how the CGM works. >> They're not here to do that. I don't >> on his body camera. Nicholas, will you look at my phone? >> Are you with her, sir? Okay. How do you know her? >> She's my wife. >> Okay. Well, right now she's being detained for what's going on. >> For what? >> For theft. We'll explain everything to you. Where are you parked at? >> I I got dropped off. >> Okay. Well, for now I'm going to have you wait over there somewhere by the sign. Just wait for me right here. >> Where's your phone? Cuz I detect something >> there, but >> We need she can't have that right this second. Unless you can you can you can have it before we leave. Just we'll just finish up doing what we need to do, okay? >> Yeah. >> So, if you wouldn't mind sitting either inside or wherever you want to wait. Yeah, I just had them check her out, um but I don't She thinks I'm trying to harm her or something like that. I'm not. I'm just trying to have her checked out, so >> Well, what is she being detained for? >> For theft. >> From here? >> No. From Kohl's in Hamden. So, I'm I'm Yeah, I'm just being frank with you, man. Um I know I know it's hot out here, so you want to you'd rather wait inside or somewhere? >> No, I just want to make sure she's okay. >> Yeah, she's okay. All right. So, we'll be with you in a few minutes. Just if you don't mind hanging out over here. >> So, hold my phone and and stand near me cuz >> Can you Would you mind moving away cuz I don't I understand she's your wife, but I get it. She's not going to go anywhere without you knowing. I will I will be coming with you, okay? You mind if I just grab your information real quick? Is that cool? So, that way I can if I have to call you or something, I can give you your phone. >> Yeah. >> All right. >> Are you okay? >> I No, they're not allowed I didn't do anything wrong. >> Well, let it play out, okay? Get your test, and just relax. I'm going to be around the corner, all right? >> Can you take my stuff? >> Not yet, but you can. Not yet. >> Why? It's all right. Just let it go. They're going to do what they do. >> This is her husband. He's He's cool. >> This is really tight. >> So, this guy uh the guy with the green shirt, he was following you? >> guy? >> Yeah, so he was following you, um when did you notice him starting to follow you? >> Um >> Goodness. I get so nervous sometimes, dude. >> Follow the guy? >> Must Yeah, I guess so. This is my supervisor. I'm sorry. I'll talk to him. Hey. Open up. for you. Um my shoulder over the shoulder. Thank you. >> The LP officer saw her select items, watched the bag get heavier, and saw her exit without paying. She then fled across active traffic when he confronted her. That combination clears the Terry threshold easily. When the responding officer arrived, he asked to search her bag. She said yes. Under Schneckloth versus Bustamonte, a consent search is valid when consent is voluntary, and voluntariness is judged by the totality of circumstances, not whether the person knew they could say no. Here, consent came before handcuffing in a relatively calm setting with no overt coercion on camera. The search was clean. The bag was empty by then. She had already disposed of the merchandise inside a Firestone bathroom, but the consent itself was legally sufficient. Probable cause doesn't have to arrive all at once. Under Illinois versus Gates, courts look at the totality of circumstances as they accumulate. The full picture here, LP's direct observation, the flight, the empty bag, and two independent Firestone employees corroborating the bathroom disposal built a rock-solid foundation. The subject argued repeatedly that the officer couldn't hold her without proof of a crime. That's a genuine misunderstanding of how the law works. A Terry stop doesn't require proof. It requires suspicion that is reasonable and articulable. Proof is what you need for an arrest. When she physically tried to walk away, the officer stopped her. That intervention was lawful. Florida v. Royer establishes that a person detained under Terry is not free to leave until the officer releases them or probable cause for arrest materializes. Both happened here. She was then handcuffed. At that point, the detention crossed into a de facto arrest, and that's exactly when the officer read Miranda. Miranda versus Arizona requires the advisement before any custodial interrogation. Before the cuffs, she was in a Terry stop. After, she was in custody, the timing was correct. Everything she said after that point, every denial, every accusation, every threat of a lawsuit, was said voluntarily, without being asked a direct question. Miranda protects against compelled self-incrimination during interrogation. Choosing to keep talking is not protected. It's just talking. The charges confirmed on camera were three. Florida statute 812.015, subsection 7, grand theft in the third degree, a felony for merchandise valued between $750 and $5,000. That's the anchor charge. And everything else flows from it. The second charge was resisting a merchant during retail theft under Florida statute 812.015, subsection 9. She told the LP officer to get away from her and ran across traffic to avoid him recovering the property. Florida courts have held that verbal refusal combined with flight satisfies the resistance element. The third was resisting an officer without violence under Florida statute 843.022. She verbally declared she was leaving, put her jacket on, and started walking. That's not a misunderstanding, that's an obstruction of a lawful detention. No violence required for this charge, movement and declared intent are enough. Grand theft third degree in Florida carries a maximum of 5 years in state prison and a $5,000 fine. Run consecutively with both misdemeanors, total statutory exposure reaches 7 years. In practice, a first-time offender on this charge typically receives probation with adjudication withheld, meaning no formal felony conviction on the record if completed successfully. What changes that calculus is what happened in the bathroom. Flushing merchandise three or four times and dumping the rest in a trash can is not a spontaneous decision. It's evidence of planning and consciousness of guilt, exactly the kind of aggravating conduct that gives a prosecutor reason to push harder at sentencing. The officer handled the CGM disclosure correctly. When she said her phone monitored a medical device on her arm, he offered EMS. She declined. An officer's medical obligation to a detained person is satisfied by offering qualified medical personnel. Offering and being refused closes that legal question entirely. The officer gets a B plus. His Miranda timing was right, his consent request was clean, and he maintained verbal composure for 21 straight minutes of someone telling him he was breaking the law. One deduction. The Harvard or Stanford remark was sarcastic and unnecessary. Minor, but visible. The subject gets a C. She was actually smart in the first few minutes. Consented to the search, disclosed her concealed carry proactively, gave her version clearly. Then she shifted to a strategy of sustained verbal resistance that added charges without helping her legal position at all. Three things to take from this. First, flight is never neutral. The moment she ran across traffic instead of stopping for the LP officer, she handed investigators a piece of physical evidence they wouldn't have had otherwise. A bag that entered a bathroom full and came out flat. Second, silence is a right that costs nothing and has no downside. Everything said on that body cam is admissible. She was never asked a question that required answering. Invoking the fifth at the start removes the risk entirely. Choosing to keep talking is a decision, not a reflex. Third, the side of the road is not a courtroom. Arguing that a detention is unlawful to the arresting officer doesn't make it unlawful. It just creates more audio of you talking. The place to challenge the legality of a stop is a suppression hearing. That's where the argument actually counts. Let us know if there is an interaction or legal topic that you would like us to discuss in the comments below. 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