On November 9th, 2024, officers responded to an active credit card fraud report at a luxury mall where the suspect was still on scene reattempting a purchase on the stolen card. This footage raises four distinct legal issues worth examining. >> Perfect. Perfect. And you swear everything you told me is true? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> All righty. And um what time did you last use it? Do you remember? >> Last time I used this party car was last night at the Latin market, but >> Okay. But did you have it here? Do you think you had it? >> I did have it here. >> You did have it here, but somehow you So, I lost it either in the parking lot cuz when I got out of my car, my wallet was still and everything fell and I remembered. >> All right, perfect. Uh, you have just give me one second. Let me uh figure out. Okay. How do we know for sure that that was her that made it? >> So, so they only had one declined credit card and it was her. >> Gotcha. I guess one of the saleserson told you. >> Okay. >> Correct. The store manager told me that this was the only declined credit card. Can you just get the store manager for I don't want to walk in Spooker or or I don't know if he's in real quick get call to him right quick and then we'll I'll try to make contact with him. >> Hey, how's it going? >> Good. >> Store manager. Yes, sir. >> Okay. So, tell me your part. So, what how did you get involved? So, um, the client that you just spoke with that report, she came into the store and said, "I just had a charge for this amount, $3,70, uh, that I declined." Like, I got a fraud alert on my on my thing, and I declined it, and it happened here in Louis Vuitton. So, someone had stolen my card, and then they came to the store. >> Okay. >> At like literally moments before she walked in, we had just declined a transaction for that exact amount. Were you a part of that transaction? >> I was not. >> You was not. >> The client advisor uh was her. She's in there. Um and so then uh we put two and two together and realized that uh this was the same person. Additionally, the lady you just spoke with, >> the client gives a name when they come into the store, they check in. The client that stole her card gave us the name. >> Okay. >> Right. When the card declined, she shared, "Oh, I'm in a hurry. Never mind. I'll just come back later. And she quickly disappeared. Um, and then they just stood right over there, her and another guy that was not with her in store. So, he came over here and joined her here. Then after some time, she came back in and now she's in the store uh reattempting her purchase. >> Gotcha. Do you see the young lady? Can you point her out to me? >> Yes, absolutely. She's uh the wearing the black dress with the tattoo on her left arm. >> Gotcha. So, obviously her Gotcha. Gotcha. What are they? So, what are they trying to do now? Do you even know? >> They said that they wanted to look at a bag. We pulled a bag out of the window. We we uh we've got one of our managers helping her. Who knows what the situation is. >> Gotcha. Got it point of sale. Um normally if a client is just tapping their card and we don't take possession of their card, we actually don't have to check identification any longer. But in this situation, EPA is going to make sure that when they go to pay with a card that we ask for ID, make sure that we check it, right? So, likely that will stop whatever kind of foolishness they're doing. >> Yep. So, uh yeah, I mean it's up to you guys. You guys can continue on with the whatever sale y'all are doing or um >> or I could just intervene. So, it's up to you if you guys want to >> want to just go on or whatever or I can do whatever. >> We'd like to just continue on peacefully and sort not cause a scene. Get to a point of sale. Look, if the guy pulls out a card and it matches his ID and it goes through >> Yeah. for that transaction. >> I I can't hear anything, right? If what happens, I think it's going to happen is when we go to ask for ID, they're going to be like, "Oh, uh, >> I'm like, man, I had to run and go get it, man." I was like, "It's been a day. >> Holidays are coming up." >> That's right. Yeah. >> There you go. No, never. Not once. >> Yeah, that's it's never happened to me. It's never happened to me. Usually the criminal's long gone by the time >> I'm just worried about >> Yeah, I know. They probably have like a card reader where like >> what's up, man? What's up? What's up? >> What's up, man? >> What's your uh phone number here or your >> Perfect. Perfect. And you swear everything you told me is true. >> Yeah. Yeah. Everything. >> That's all I know. >> Looks good. It looks like they're coming out, so I don't know if they uh they got It looks like the transaction went through, so there's no issue. Okay. Perfect. Perfect. >> All right. Thanks. Give me a call. >> Yep. Excuse me. >> You mind if I talk to you guys first, Regent? >> Sure. >> You mind if I talk to you guys? >> Yeah. So here, let's get out of the way. So earlier, were you here and made a purchase on a credit card on American or tried to make a purchase? >> No. >> No. You weren't just here a little while ago and tried to make one and it got declined? >> No. >> So not you? >> No. >> Are you sure? Where are you at but for here? >> I just got here not too long ago meeting up my man. >> Gotcha. Gotcha. Just a little while ago, you weren't just in there tried to make a purchase for $3,000. It got declined. You walked out and then he joined you while you were standing over here. >> I've been like you've been right next to >> Yeah, but I've known him for a while and I don't know. What are you trying to get to? >> Okay, so they just had a purchase here. Okay. >> Wow. >> Not not just >> I get a little I get it. That's what I'm trying to explain it to you, but you just interrupted. I was >> the first time I spoke in such a way. >> Right. You just asked me for what was it getting to and I was trying to explain this the situation and then you interrupted me. So I'll wait. >> Right. Right. So that was what I was trying to get to. Okay. So just a little while ago there was a purchase that was made here at Louis Vuitton. Okay. It was you with a card and then it got declined. Okay. And so what they just told me was it was you that made the purchase and then you exited the store. Stood over here >> looking at a bag. >> Yeah. looking at a bag. >> I came back. I met my man. Came back. >> Right. Right. Right. So, >> that's what I'm was getting to, right? You just said a little while ago it just >> I was here looking at a bag walking around. >> And did you use a American Express or Airlines card? Advantage card? >> No. >> No, you didn't. >> No, I didn't. >> Okay. Do you have your ID with you? >> What is this for? I'm confused. >> Because the the card that was used in that transaction was stolen. >> Oh, no. I don't have a card. I don't have my ID. I literally just came here to meet him. >> Okay. So, were you here before? Again, to back to that other question, were you here with when he was not here? >> Yeah. I was in here walking around. I looked at a bag and that was it. And then I left and I met him. >> So, during that transaction there, like I was saying, that bag you tried to purchase? >> No, >> you did not try to purchase it. And you did never hand it. So, the cameras the camera's there and the transaction was not. Is that not true? cuz I want you to please be completely honest with me cuz it's not a big deal. >> No, I tried to use my card, but I did not get >> So, now we're getting more of the story here, right? You see what I'm saying? So, >> okay. >> First Investigative Detention Authority under Terry versus Ohio, an officer may briefly detain a person based on reasonable articulable suspicion alone a significantly lower threshold than probable cause that does not require certainty of criminal conduct. Before making contact, officers had four independent sources of suspicion. A victim report real-time store manager identification. A check-in name matching the stolen card holder and electronic records confirming the decline charge matched the stolen card number exactly. Under Illinois versus Gates, probable cause is evaluated under a totality of circumstances standard. That threshold was cleared before the officer spoke a single word and crossed into probable cause for arrest once the suspect began providing inconsistent statements. >> And then you told me that you did not make a transaction. And now hold on, hold on, let me finish. Then you told me that you did not make a transaction at all. But then now you just told me that you just used your card. >> All right. So we're getting So let's get back to the real story. Okay. >> What's going on now? >> I just told you the card that you tried to make a transaction cuz I want I'm just going to be completely honest with you. Okay. >> My card. >> No. The car that you tried to make a purchase. >> I only have my card. So >> Okay. Do you have your ID with you? >> No, I don't. >> All right. That's >> So you have nothing with your name on it inside your purse? >> I have my card. Yes. >> Okay. Can you take it out for me? Sure. >> You have any other cards inside of there? >> No. >> So when they look back and try to see that the purchase that you tried to make earlier, will it say this card on? >> It should. It didn't go through. So >> So will it Well, it's going to it registers, right? So everything that that you do, all the transactions are obviously kept in the computer system. I'm sorry if I'm boring you there. No, I'm just I >> Okay, so is this going to be the card? I'm gonna ask you one time. >> Okay. And honestly, I'm honestly honestly will probably get you a long ways, right? Because we've already got a little bit tripped up in the truth. >> I'm telling you, I just don't understand what is happening right now. >> So, the like I told you before. >> All right. I want you to be >> completely So, there's about 400 cameras throughout this this mall. Okay. In Nordstrom, there's cameras. Okay. All >> right. You know what happened in Nordstrom? >> No, I don't. >> Okay. >> So, there's cameras all throughout Louis Vuitton as well. Okay. >> Okay. >> All right. And when you present a card, >> right, >> when you try to make a transaction, it is logged. >> Is log what? >> Log O G E D. >> Right. Yes. >> Okay. So, did when you tried to make that purchase for that bag? >> So, again, so I'll explain this for someone's card was stolen. Okay. you get a uh the person who the card belongs to gets notification from Nordstrom. All right. That a purchase was made for $1,000. A little over $1,000. Okay. Ne sorry, Louis Vuitton gets uh the person, she gets a not another notification that someone is using her card at Louis Vuitton for about $3,000 for a bag. Okay. Like I said, there's cameras all over this mall. Every inch of this mall is is is monitored by the camera surveillance system. Okay. Louis Vuitton, the person who the the card belongs to, she gets to Louis Vuitton just a little while ago, alerts them of what's going on. Okay. Obviously, they're able to backtrack and log see every transaction and purchase that is made. Okay. So, young lady here, there is um who they identify. There's only one decline transaction today for that same amount and it matches the card number that it was used for that transaction matches the victim's uh stolen credit card. Okay. And unfortunately they identified you as being the person who used that card during that transaction. And during that transaction, she said they they're saying that she said that told them that her name was who is the card owner. You get what I'm saying? >> So, >> and after she hold on one sec, let me let me just finish this one sec. >> So, after she le, you know, makes the transaction, she comes out of the store, stands over here, and then that's when you come and join her. >> That's not true. That's what happened. >> That wasn't true either. So that was that was earlier and then you guys go back inside. >> That's not what happened. >> Okay. >> Officers with you. >> When was when was she supposed to leave there? >> That that the exact time I don't know the exact >> but again that that that kind of >> kind of well that kind Well, how do they know that she >> don't know whether or not there's a conflict? >> Well, there is no conflict because it kind of it matches exactly what what they were saying. She was in there but hold on. She was in there by herself looking at a bag which is exactly what she says, right? She says and then she kind of changes the story. She didn't she first she says she didn't make a transaction then she says she did make a try to make a transaction but it was decline right then she leaves out and you guys come back again with you which is exactly what they said >> okay so you just said you guys come back you want to correct that >> well you I should say she comes back with you so you weren't you weren't a part of the the original thing at all whatsoever so you you weren't a part of it whatsoever but it gets to my you know and the stories match up she was in there by herself try to make a transaction using the victim's stolen car and then you come with her when she lose out she bit you whatever happens you guys meet up whatever y'all go back inside or you go inside with her at that time so you had no involvement in it whatsoever all right so yeah we'll get that >> very patient speak and I'm afraid speak because you accuse me of interrupting you so let me know when you're ready >> go ahead whenever you're ready to talk >> okay so I met her someplace belts and it took us about 20 minutes to get in there. >> Right. >> Right. You keep saying that I was either we or us. And so that's not really what Down what you're saying is she went in there as Laura and she used somebody else's card and she used it downstairs at Nordstrom's >> downstairs or upstairs. Where's everyone? >> Okay. She used this that card also as Laura over at Nordstrom's >> that that I'm not too worried about right now. We're worried about the Louis Vuitton. So it's two different incidents here. two different institutes. >> Okay. So then I go in there and she's been kind of hitting on me to get a bag for a little while. So then she's giving me this [ __ ] that I've been going couldn't give her a bag. And the reason why I said [ __ ] is because I'm totally against spending this much money in a bag. So she talks me into it and I do it. So now that's just because of my own principles. I never spent this much money on a bag or whatever. >> So I go and I buy the bag. It has nothing to do with the previous stuff and I can't really tell. Are you saying that she was alone and she was popping in and doing all these things? >> So yeah. Yeah. So once again, yes. So earlier today she was by herself again. She was by herself >> earlier today in here like 10 minutes apart. >> Wait, I wanted to do that. >> So earlier earlier today, what time? Don't know. Not of an issue, right? She was in >> to me because I know what her time is. >> Well, she just by her What is the big issue? Like what are you trying to Because? Because by her by her own Hold on. By her own by her own is an issue. She said she was in there by her Okay. Actually, you don't even need to be here. Actually, so you can go ahead and leave. You don't need I mean, there's no point in me even talking to you cuz you were not a part of this whatsoever. Just like you you wanted me to clarify with the week. So, you are you are not involved in this whatsoever. My issue is with her. >> All right. >> So, right now, you're being detained. All right. For an investigation, okay, that's what's happening right now. So, right now, you're not free to leave at whatsoever. Okay. All right. >> Why? >> Cuz I, like I said, I'm conducting an investigation >> into the theft. So, that's what's going to happen right now. Okay. So, what I just need you to do, just stay right there. Don't move if you want to. You can you can move against the wall there or whatever to get out of the way, though. Okay. >> Hey, is uh are they able to have the cashier? Cuz I I don't want to leave her by herself. just the the person who was did the transaction and this transaction. Just come out right quick and talk to me. All righty, ma'am. We're going to go out to my police car. Okay, cuz you're under arrest right now. >> Second Miranda timing. The officer declared arrest at the 16-minute mark triggering the requirement under Miranda versus Arizona that rights be advised before custodial interrogation begins. Rights were not read until approximately 2 minutes after the formal arrest declaration. That gap creates a suppression window for any officer prompted statements made in between. However, the suspect's phone call admission I just found it was spontaneous and unprompted, placing it outside Miranda's scope and making it admissible as a voluntary statement. The physical evidence, meaning transaction log, surveillance footage, and check-in records is entirely unaffected by any Miranda challenge. Evidence collected independently of custodial statements cannot be suppressed on Miranda grounds. >> I think I'm not being mean. I think I've been actually very nice to you. Probably too nice to you. >> I appreciate that, buddy. When you grab my arm, I see who you are. >> I'm sorry. Come on. >> I'm going in the car. >> Uh, yeah. >> Why? >> Favor. Turn this way. You have anything on you? Any weapons, guns, knives, anything like that? >> No. Am I going to jail? >> Probably. So, >> for what? >> That's what happens when you steal. You go to jail. >> I didn't though. Okay, if you still want to stick with that story, okay, if you still want to stick with that story. >> Third, the found property defense. The suspect claims she found the card and simply used it, framing the act as opportunistic rather than criminal. This argument fails on two independent legal grounds. Under theft by appropriation, using found property with intent to deprive the owner constitutes theft. Knowledge of non-ownership is established by the card holder's name on the card itself, removing any good faith defense before the argument is made. More critically, the suspect provided the victim's name at the store's check-in system, an act requiring knowledge of the card holder's identity. That single act elevates the offense to fraudulent misrepresentation at point of sale and adds a distinct charge. Fourth, inconsistent statements as evidence. The suspect gave three materially different accounts in one conversation. First denying presence in the store, then admitting presence, but denying a transaction, then admitting an attempted purchase, but claiming it was her own card. Under federal and state evidence rules, prior inconsistent statements are admissible as substantive proof of consciousness of guilt. She also denied having identification, then produced it from her purse during processing a second false statement documented on body cam. At no point did the suspect invoke her fifth amendment right to remain silent. Every statement volunteered, every correction offered, and every denial later reversed became part of the evidentiary record working directly against her at every stage of prosecution. >> Uh, so I'm going to read you your rights in just a moment here and going to ask you more questions just like I told you before. Um, honestly goes above. >> All right. So like I was saying, right? So obviously first I come to you right very nicely, right? Ask you just questions of what happened, stuff like that. At first you told me that you weren't in Louis Vuitton earlier and then you told me okay maybe you were there and then you told me um what did you tell me that you didn't make a purchase there then you finally came and say that you did make a purchase and then it changed to you okay you use your card and all that stuff right so let me tell you this I've been doing this for a long time right over almost 10 years right so it's not my first rodeo it's not the biggest crime of the century right it's still a felony crime right obviously I'm not there just because I just want to come over here, right? >> I obviously know what happens, right? Like I told you, there's cameras everywhere. Everything is logged. So, I'm we're not I'm not dumb or slow, right? >> I'm pretty good at what I do, >> right? So, I've already told you what you did cuz I saw it with my own eyes on camera, right? So, I'm not naive it. So, please don't try to challenge my intelligence, right? Cuz I know what happened, right? I don't know why you would even lie about that. So, we'll start over. Okay. We'll start over. We're start over. Just We're going to forget the past. We're going to start over. Okay. >> She's going to go to jail. Yeah. Especially that's >> Is that a bad crime? >> It's a felony crime. So, yes, it is. Uh >> is it does it go by the amount that they try to >> Yeah. So, well, there's a couple things. So, one, it's a felony theft, right? Cuz $1,000 of theft that she was actually able to deprive you with, that is a, you know, a felony crime. Um, so over $728 or whatever it is now, that is a felony and obviously the thousand is over that. So that and then there's another charge with unlawful use of a stolen credit card, right? But yeah, she is you know the felony crimes though she is uh you know going through on that. So all right, >> no problem. >> All right. >> So yeah, she she admitted uh through all of it. The investigating officer receives a B+ for a methodical evidence first approach patient interview technique and clean separation of the companion male's legal exposure. The sole deduction is the 2minute delay between arrest declaration and Miranda advisement. The female suspect receives a D for three contradictory accounts, a false denial of identification, and an unsolicited custodial admission without once invoking her right to silence. The companion mail receives an A minus for a consistent timeline and appropriately contesting any implication of shared criminal involvement. Three takeaways. First, a declined transaction is still a log transaction. Second, invoke the Fifth Amendment the moment a felony investigation begins. Third, using a found credit card is theft under United States law and the card holder's name establishes knowledge with no good faith exception. Let us know if there is an interaction or legal topic that you would like us to discuss in the comments below. Thank you for watching. You want to call? You got to >> Is there any way you could take this off of me or loosen up a little bit? Maybe. >> Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. >> Okay. How do I do this? >> You're going to kind of swing your arms out or whatever. >> I'm going to call him and my mom after. Okay. >> Say it again. >> Can I call him and my mom after? >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> Babe, I'm sorry you're on speaker right now. I'm really sorry for all of this. You know, this is going to happen or else I would have never did this. >> I'm not your call. >> What? >> I'm not your one phone call. >> What do you mean? >> I said it clear. >> What do you mean, babe? You can't call me. >> No. >> Are you serious? >> Yeah, I'm going home. >> What about everything? >> I don't tell you, man. Up. I mean, you're you're running around stealing [ __ ] with credit cards. >> I didn't mean to. I just found it and I it was decision. >> Yep. It was. >> They're taking jail. >> I don't know how I can help you. >> You can't help me bail me out tomorrow. >> No. >> Seriously? >> Yeah. Call your dad. >> They can't help me, babe. >> You have to. It's a family issue. But they don't have it to help me. >> You got to deal with it, >> Mom. >> Yeah. >> All right. Don't freak out, okay? But I got arrested. You're taking me to jail. >> What? >> Stealing the card. I'm going to I'm going to need you to bail me out tomorrow. I'll give you the money, but I won't know anything until tomorrow, I guess. >> Okay. Just text it to me. But >> I can't I can't text. Like I'm in handcuffs right now. This is my only >> All right. Bye. >> I'll put our phone in. >> Cool. >> All right. Uh do me a favor. Step out. You're going to go with this officer here. So just listen to what he means.