This is Grant Harden, a 50-year-old police officer hiding a horrifying secret. Grant has been apprehended on suspicion of murder, but as it would later transpire, his crimes and behavior were so bad that in his interrogation, he tried everything he possibly could to escape. On the 23rd of February, James Appleton had pulled into a parking lot on Ganridge Road to take a phone call with his brother-in-law. Suddenly, a loud banging sound was heard over the phone and the line went dead. A passerby had spotted a white Chevrolet Malibu parked behind James's car that immediately sped away after the loud noise. When the passerby went to check on James, he was lying dead at the wheel with a gunshot wound to the head. Gateway, Arkansas is a small town of 400 people, so the owner of the Chevy was quickly determined to be Grant Harden, a 50-year-old police officer who had lived in this town his whole life. Later that night, Grant's vehicle was stopped at a police roadblock after taking his family out for dinner, and he was quickly brought in for questioning. But unfortunately for everyone involved, Grant's experience in law enforcement would prove to make this interrogation one of the most excruciating and difficult that Arkansas police had ever had to deal with. I'm Detective Chamberlain. I know we haven't Grant James Chamberlain. Okay, yeah. Uh I think Did you used to be a police officer somewhere or I recognize you, but I wasn't 100% sure where I knew you from, but somebody said that you used to be a police officer in Gateway or something like that. Okay. The interrogation begins casually as Detective Chamberlain opens with questions about Grant's career. As they're both police officers, he assumes he can strike an immediate middle ground with him, building trust between them and hopefully getting him to relax so he'd give up information easier. A strategy that he'd soon find out had the opposite effect. Grant is then read his rights, but decides this is where he's going to start making it difficult for the detectives. Here's the thing. I want to talk to you about what what you've done today, okay? Can you just take me through when you woke up this morning to when you got stopped by the police out there in What's the name of that road that you're on? I'm sorry. Game Ridge. I'm not going to say anything after I've been read those rights, yeah. Okay. Well, I don't know what's going on. I'm kind of sickly and don't know don't know what I'm here for or anything. Up until this point, Grant hasn't been told what he's been brought in for and states that he's feeling sickly given the circumstances he's been put into. Given his disturbing body language, he may also be feeling exposed and somewhat inferior due to being the suspect of a case instead of the detective for the first time in his life. So, you don't want to explain what you've done today. Did you Is there a reason behind that? What was the first thing said? I have the right to remain silent. Okay. So, you're telling me that you don't want to talk to me right now? Okay. Cool. Hang tight right here for just a few minutes, okay? As is normal in a case like this, the detectives leave the room for a few minutes to talk about how they're going to handle the interview. And not only does it give them time to formulate their approach, but it also gives the suspects time alone to worry about what could be going on and form anxiety regarding their situation. At the same time though, it may also give the suspect a moment to collect their thoughts and generate their own story and approach to the interview, putting the detectives on the back foot instead. By the way, I'm Detective Cordero. I think we've met once before. Probably so. Yeah, I think so. Okay, so I I I don't know if I scared you at the beginning or or what, but that's why I was trying to and I can't You see You see the position that I'm in. I can't tell you why you're here, but at the same time I I need to rule you out into something. Does that Does that make sense? When the detectives reenter the room, they try an obviously different approach. This time attempting to set Grant at ease, stating that they just need to clear him from any wrongdoing and then he's free to go on his way. Many people would, at least subconsciously, be inclined to open up a little more in an attempt to get out of there as soon as possible. But Grant has other ideas. Would you be willing to talk to me about your day knowing that I need to rule you out of something or I got I'm just If you didn't do anything wrong today, you have nothing to worry about. Yes, I I would have lied to you but before Yeah. the rights are read. So, not knowing what's going on. Yeah, and you understand that's the tactic. We have We read those rights to everybody who comes in here. It's not just you. It It happens to everybody that walks through this room and talks to us. As a former police officer, Grant is fully aware of all of this. He knows everybody that's interviewed, innocent or not, has to be read these rights, which essentially completely invalidates this as the real reason that he isn't talking. He's just using it as an excuse to refuse to talk and possibly to even stall for time. I guess my question is this, knowing what I just told you, I guess if it was me and I was, you know, if I was in your position, I'd be like, "Hey James, I did this. I was at Or Grant, I did this. I was at, you know, here, here, here, and here." And I would just be done with it. But at this point, like I can't clear you from this because you could still be potentially be a suspect. I don't know if I'm not explaining it right or what is going on here. I just have to Once the Once the rights have been read, I have to act. It says I have the right to be silent. Yes. Okay. Just tell me this. I know you're a police officer before, right? You're You're a police officer in in Gateway? It's an easy yes or no. I I'm being silent. Well, I can see that. We can do this all night. I mean, it doesn't bother me. You're going to continue to be a suspect until I find out otherwise. Okay. Unfortunately for the detectives, Grant is exercising perfect form within this interrogation. Refusing to talk greatly hinders the investigation as a whole and completely prevents the detectives from making progress, all well being completely legal. This is why detective Chamberlain is starting to appear visibly annoyed and decides to take a break from the interrogation as letting emotions take control in an investigation like this can be extremely dangerous for the detectives. But, once again, this time alone can also give the suspects the chance to come up with a plan. Hello. Hey, I need to go. You need to go where? Home or get ready for work in a little bit. Okay. Well, just have a seat. I'll get I'll get you a flight. Okay. All right. All right, thank you. Hey, Grant. Yes, sir. Now, I'm going to ask you to want to talk to me, Grant. What's going on? I'm just ready to go. Okay. And I'm not I'm not ready for you to go yet. So, you're not going to be able to go. I've got other things that I'm doing right now. So, Well, I I just want to I just want to go. Okay. You're not going to go. Okay. Yeah, no, you're not going But, I'm wasting time. Okay. Perfect. Thank you. Oddly enough, in many other investigations like this, now is around the time where an officer may attempt to come to a decision regarding the suspect. The interview is obviously at a complete standstill and no progress is being made in any direction. The standard protocol would be to either gather the information needed to charge the suspect for a crime or release them based on a lack of evidence. But, whether the detective thinks he can extract more information or if it was an ego-based decision, Grant is told to stay and continue the interrogation. The police then try to take some time to piece together more of the story, talking to witnesses to try and place Grant at the scene of the crime. Despite his silence being perfectly legal and acceptable, it greatly increases the detective's suspicion towards him. Suspicion that's only heightened when Grant's wife says that his only alibi was that she thought he was spreading grass seeds at the time of James's death. All signs point towards Grant, and Detective Chamberlain goes back in for round three. Uh Detective Cordero is talking to your wife right now. I talked to her a little bit. So, I've kind of got a timeline of where you were and where you weren't today. Um we all know what happened, okay? I'm not trying to get you in any trouble. I'm not trying to get her in any trouble. You got a little daughter 16 who needs her parents, okay? I don't know if you've had a problem with this guy for a while or and this was an accident or you maliciously chasing him down or or what happened. But if I don't get your side of the story, I won't ever know. We're writing a book. You got chapter one, you got chapter two and chapter three. Chapter one is what happened today, what started out today, how your day started. Chapter two is what led up to the incident, and chapter three is you telling me about what happened to lead you up to that. I know you went to eat you know out tonight. I know what you said at dinner. I know that you went to Lowe's afterwards. I know I know everything, but I don't know what caused the incident. And if I don't know that, I've got to assume the worst. I'll let you think about it. And I'm I'll give you one more chance here in a few minutes, and I'm not I'm not going to talk to you anymore. I'm going to stop Well, what happened? I know you know. We have witnesses that put you there. They physically ID'd you. The two cars that drove by Look, man, I'm not I I just want to know why it happened. I'm going to sleep good tonight regardless. I don't think you will. At the time of the murder, when the two cars were parked up beside each other, the man in the white Chevrolet waved to the passerby pass before the gun was fired. As they passed, they were able to get a good look at the driver. And unfortunately for Grant, it was Andrew Tillman, another resident of the small town who had known him since he was a child and was hence able to undoubtedly place him at the scene of the crime as the gun went off. Both Grant and Chamberlain know without a doubt what happened to James, but Grant also knows that his only chance of escaping is to continue to remain silent and pray that they can't gather the evidence they need. The detectives are now forced to try almost anything they can think of to get movement out of Grant, starting with allowing him to see his wife and daughter in hopes that it will invoke some sort of emotional reaction within him and get him to talk. Your wife is about to leave. She wanted to get home before she left. Are you good with that? Yeah. What do you think? What do you think? All right. I'll be back in a few minutes. Thank you. Thank you. Unfortunately, even this doesn't work. So, instead, Detective Cordiero decides to return alone with a more calm and sympathetic demeanor in a second attempt to build trust with Grant. Often, male suspects are more likely to build a subconscious connection with female detectives due to them often thinking that they're less threatening and more understanding. Realistically, this is the last option the detectives have. All right. Wait a minute. Thinking about laying down up on that desk, but it's awful hard. Yeah, I don't know if you'll be any more comfortable up there than you would you are now. Can you help me understand how we got to this point? I don't know. You don't know? May I remind you on patrol and running into you one night? Help me out on a call back then. Oh. And way back in the Gosh, almost 3 years now. Well, how? 2 years Yeah, I was so sorry. wrong about that. Yeah, something like that. You guys are always good to help us help help me, too. Yeah, absolutely. You were right there, you were always there right there, man. Cordiero opens up with an anecdote about how Grant apparently backed her up on a case 3 years ago. Even though he doesn't necessarily remember it, this will give him the idea that Cordiero will be even more sympathetic and helpful towards him as he's done her a favor in the past. It also allows them to continue reminiscing about their time on the force and the people they've worked with, further strengthening the subconscious bond Grant will be creating. I just don't understand how we got to this point. And me, neither. You're on the top. I was ready to go to bed. I don't believe you. Me, too. Me, too. I don't know if we could do that. You just talk to me. Well, I just have to Since you read those rights, I have to stay I have to do the right. Well, what What's the difference? You know the difference. Regardless if something happened or not, and if it did, if it was an accident, well, tell me. Like, help me help help me help you. Like, I want to know what I can do or what happened today to maybe explain it later. I don't know what happened today. I just need to You know, people are going to have questions. Your family. I know I have questions. Well, exactly. So, so why can't we figure this out together? Cordiero is making a conscious effort to use inclusive language such as we will figure this out together. This and her open and expressive body language are both techniques she's using to make Grant feel more relaxed and as though he's part of the solution, not the problem. She's also making every effort to be nice to Grant in hopes that maybe he'll finally open up to her or at least give her a way in. We can start from the very beginning. I mean, I know you probably slept in cuz you work nights, but I work nights. Personally, I worked nights for almost 4 years. I understand how that sleep schedule is. Yeah, our sleep's all And so messed up. Did you sleep in today? Yeah. I bet you did. You could have got to work tonight, huh? Yeah. Yeah. What time did you get up? Around noonish. Around noon? That's usually about the time I got up, too. Did you watch anything good on TV? Usually, that's what I do. I eat and watch TV. I will put myself up a little bit. Anything good? Same old stuff. Oh, yeah? On TV. You watch the same episode? Like, do you have a specific TV show you would wake up and watch? I only watched the show my wife always has it on. I can't remember what channel it's called, but now TV Land. Oh, okay. I haven't really watched any of that. I don't even I couldn't even tell you what it was about. Does your wife like that? Oh, yeah. I I think she's been watching the stuff, but I don't Yeah. It might not be about the case, but finally, Grant is talking and Cordero has found her way in. If she can keep the flow of this conversation up, she might be slowly able to extract information from him even without him knowing. Talking about specifics such as TV shows and sleep schedules, even that could lead to catching him in a lie and placing him in certain places at certain times. But most importantly, she's building a connection with him and continuing to let him talk, which increases the chance that he either slips up or decides to make it easier on the detectives and answer a question. But predictably, as soon as Cordero started asking him to talk about the case again, he shut down once more, refusing to answer any more questions and staying silent. I think you have a lot to live for. Beautiful family who I've had the privilege of talking to. The way I look at it is if you're a man, men face their mistakes and they own up to them. Mhm. And they figure out what happened and figure out how to solve it and move on. Like I said, I'm I'm honestly here to help you and I want you to understand that. I wouldn't spend my time in here with you if I didn't and that something happened today that needs to be explained. Did you make a mistake today? Even after reminding him of his family, Grant doesn't move an inch. Again, realizing that his only chance of being let off is to not speak and hope they don't find anything. I like you. I like this fellow that was a detective here. I don't know if they I don't care about any of that but and stuff I just don't know how to how to I've never had this happen before and well, I'm going to turn you in for something. So, I don't I don't know if you don't care but I just don't know how to how to I think how to be silent so you don't end up looking like a jerk. No, you're not. In fact, honestly, you are far from that. You're very polite. Don't you know why you're here? I appreciate you guys and I'm just going to kind of get a lawyer. Yeah. It's up to you. What? You can get Obviously, something's going on and I need one. I just want to hear your side but I want to get a lawyer. After hours of almost pointless back and forth, Grant finally asks for a lawyer, meaning the detectives can no longer question him and concludes the interrogation. But this is far from where the story ends. Between this interrogation and the final court hearing, Grant and his lawyer both realized that there was simply no way he was going to be released scot-free. Not only was there a man at the scene of the crime who all but saw him pull the trigger, people were also starting to realize that he'd actually either been fired or resigned from three different police force jobs before becoming the chief of police in his hometown. So, on October 16th, 2017, he pleaded guilty to the first-degree murder, but refused to reveal his motive, leaving each member of James Appleton's family without closure to this day. However, as Grant was being prosecuted, a shocking revelation was made that turned him, a murderer, into a senseless monster of a human being. As his DNA was being taken, they realized it was already in the system under an unknown name for a crime committed almost 20 years ago. In November of 1997, a teacher at Frank Tillery Elementary School went to the teachers' lounge bathroom, only to be met by a man brandishing a gun that forced her into a stall. The man then raped her and fled, taking care not to touch anything or leave evidence behind, except semen left on her clothes. Local police did everything they could to identify the perp, but after 20 months of effort, the investigation went cold until 20 years later when Grant Harden's DNA was found to be a perfect match. And because Rogers police had obtained a John Doe warrant back in 2003, allowing them to arrest an unknown suspect and bypass the statute of limitations, he was hit with the 14-year sentence for his on top of the 21 years for the murder of James Appleton. And as such, Grant Harden was sentenced to 35 years in prison, meaning that he'll likely live out the rest of his life behind bars.