Yeah. I mean, you've been through a lot. >> Yeah. >> You you you and your whole family has her and don't get me wrong. >> Her her family. >> She has. >> You know, your whole >> It was her that died, man. It was her. >> At 34 years old, John Carter would find himself at the center of one of Fairfield, Ohio's most unsettling mysteries. What began as the disappearance of his fianceé spiraled into a years'slong investigation that eventually revealed far more than a worried partner's story. Detectives sitting across from him quickly came to believe they weren't facing a desperate husband, but a man hiding something far more chilling. On August 14th, 2011, Fairfield police dispatchers received a call that would trigger a 12-year legal battle. Carter had been in a six-year relationship with Caitlyn Markham, and the two had recently become engaged. But that warm summer night, Caitlyn vanished without a trace. Caitlyn was known as a creative, vibrant soul. She was only weeks away from graduating art school, and her future seemed set. That future ended abruptly when she disappeared. From the very beginning, suspicion turned toward Jon. He had been the last to see her alive around midnight, and elements of his account raised doubts. Between 2011 and 2023, Carter was questioned in over seven interrogations, each more unusual than the last. Portions of these interviews released by the Fairfield Police Department, show a man who rambled endlessly, yet repeated the same storyline almost word for word. In those early sessions, he painted a picture of a happy relationship and shared plans of moving with Caitlyn to Colorado after graduation. He described their final night together, a trip to the fair, time at her home with a friend, and then after the friend left, a simple goodnight kiss before he went home. The following day, when Caitlyn didn't respond to calls or messages, Jon claimed he rushed back to her house in a panic. Detectives, however, weren't convinced. The investigation stalled for months until April 2013 when Caitlyn's remains were discovered just across the Indiana state line, wrapped in a tarp and left in a creek, her death was ruled a homicide. Though the exact cause couldn't be determined due to decomposition. With confirmation that they were dealing with a murder, investigators pushed harder. By September of that year, John was back in the interrogation room. He had already undergone two FBI voice stress tests off camera and failed both miserably. >> Hi, Don. How are you? >> Come on in over here. I got you a chair right here. >> You want water in that or anything? >> Water will be fine. >> Okay. All right. >> What? How's it going? >> I mean, >> busy times of year. >> Yeah. I mean, I like I was just telling her, I got a lot of stuff going on. You know, I have to this funeral on Sunday and I just got a new job at Miami Oxford. So, >> doing what? >> Uh, maintenance for their power plant. >> What's your status right now? I mean, you got a girlfriend and >> I do. I do have a girlfriend now. Um, what's her name? >> Her name is Kayla. Uh, we met about a year and a half ago. >> Mhm. >> And, uh, there's a there's a degree where this kind of thing happens. I feel like, you know, there's no there's no book, there's no proper way of handling it. >> Sure. So the way I feel is um let me can I can I kind of explain to you what happened after the fact? So >> So after the fact I fell apart. I was in my house for months. >> Depression. >> Yeah. Very intensely. So I didn't eat for two weeks after my mom finally got me a quarter pounder and uh I we were doing one of the searches and I out on the side of this hill and just like I'm going to put it in. I'm just going to see what happens. And I I started eating and then actually I I really started eating like I devoured the thing. But it was just like, you know, as I'm falling apart and and everything around me seems to be completely ridiculous, I get to a point of the lowest low. And uh there was a particular instance where I'm driving down Pleasant right here. This is Pleasant. is right here. >> I was driving down there and uh I mean I I got to a point where I was I was ready to go. Like I didn't I don't want I didn't want to be here. I got to be completely honest with you. >> I drive across I drive across NIS and a uh what I assume to be a drunk driver or somebody just going really fast going about 50 or something like that blows through the red light, blows right behind me. And I remember that at a certain point, I guess instinctually or something, I gassed it. Like I went faster and I instinctually p pulled myself out of it. And uh it kind of clicked in my head like I I want to live like I want to be alive. I want to exist in this world. And >> with or without her, I'm still here. And uh after that I got to a point where it was just like I need to focus on making my life better and focus on you know just kind of maintaining a degree of okay. >> By most accounts John wasn't just doing fine in the months after Caitlyn vanished. He seemed almost carefree. Friends and neighbors described him as living his life with little visible concern. Caitlyn's family, meanwhile, was heartbroken when Jon distanced himself from them shortly after her remains were discovered. Even before that, he had rarely joined in the searches or efforts to bring her home. When asked why, John always had what he claimed was a reasonable explanation. Um, so I started going out with friends and things like that and uh I came across Kayla uh when I was going over with my friend Amber to our friend Sarah's house and uh we just started talking and stuff and I really wasn't expecting to get into a relationship necessarily. I just was kind of I mean honestly I was feeling really lonely but when I met her it was just >> pretty good at >> Yeah. and and she had this really wonderful understanding, you know, she was just like, you know, if she if she came back, you know, I understand. I I can go, you know, she because I was already telling her, you know, right off the bat, like this is what my life is. This is what's going on. And she had this understanding that I wouldn't have expected from anybody. And I I just didn't want to lose that. >> So, this was six months after >> six, seven, yeah, somewhere around there. Yeah. >> Did you go on any searches with them? I went on I went on some search parties. I I did the first few like a whole I did every one I could >> and then I went um and then Texas Equa Search came in and I started doing those and then they started telling me that I couldn't because I I'm sorry. Give me a second. >> That's fine. >> Because if I found anything then then it would be horrible and they didn't want me to do that. >> So they suggested >> that I that I stop searching. I didn't feel comfortable putting up the flyers because I can't I had a lot of trouble. Every time I saw her picture, I would just cry because I missed her so much and I couldn't do the flyers. So, I had to do something. I'm sorry, man. >> That's fine. Let's move up. You heard that you heard that uh her body was found. >> What What was going through your mind then? Um, I didn't want to cry in front of the ironically in front of the police officers. So, I tried to keep it keep myself, but I was with my mom when they told me. So, I confided in my mom more than anybody. >> So, I went to her and I I fell apart again. And um few days later, I fell apart in front of Kayla and I did not want to do that. Mhm. >> And and by falling apart, I mean I literally fall to my knees and I can't move. I can't feel. So I So I I just I focused on myself. I I couldn't I know that sounds selfish. I don't know. I I feel really bad about that. But I focused on myself and I tried to make myself better so that I could be okay. And I'm sorry. >> That's fine. That's fine. Have you been over to the where she was found? >> No, I don't want to go there. I don't want to I didn't want to even acknowledge the day she went missing this year because I don't want to remember her for that. I don't want to I don't want to go to that place and be like, "Oh, this is where she died. That's wonderful. Like, why would I want to see that? Why would I care about that? Like, I just >> I just want to remember her birthday and I want to remember >> good things. >> I don't want to remember that. I don't want to know anything about that except for the fact that whoever did this is not here. That whoever did this is either dead or in jail or >> Tell Tell us your theory. >> I have I mean, I'm I guarantee you thought about it. What What is >> I've I've thought about it, but the only thing I can I I don't know. I don't know how she got there. I don't I don't speculate how she got there because I don't I try not to think about that [ __ ] I try not to put those images in my head. I have no idea what she went through and I don't want to imagine what she went through. >> Do you know where are you familiar with the area where they found her? >> My dad has property um in Laurel >> which you can take because I I know that it's on 129 or off 129 or something. >> 121. >> 121. Okay. That's the one that leads you like to Batesville and stuff, right? or not Batesville, but uh um starts the B. >> Batesville. >> Is it is Batesville? Okay. >> Yeah. And my dad would go that way occasionally, but usually, you know, because he lives in Ross, he takes a totally different way. But I do know, and my dog was bought right off that road um by a family, their last name, Master. I'll be honest with you about some things and my experiences with these type of situations is that I've learned over the years through my experience to never be shocked about what someone may tell you. >> The stereotypical TV monster or you know there's always all these TV shows about people disappearing and bad things happening. There's always this evil person lurking in the background. Every story doesn't have that theme. Okay? There is plenty of situations where things have happened that had a very unhappy ending. It doesn't necessarily mean there was ill effort along the way. >> Okay? So, I'm just going to be honest with you and not to be offensive toward you, but I would tell you that I would not be surprised if conversation today that you told me something that had not been talked about yet simply because you had a intimate up close relationship with her. Okay. >> You're with her all the time and to our knowledge the last person that I can say saw her. because there's no evidence that we've uncovered that there's anyone else. It doesn't mean that's not so. >> Okay. It just means that we don't have that evidence at this point. Would you be interested in as far as your involvement or I should say participation with regard to an investigation to once and for all be done with it? What do you mean? >> Well, I'm not asking you to erase your memories of someone that you love, but I'm asking you, you're here today as a result of police investigating something. >> Are you ready to be done with that? >> I would like the person who did this to be caught. That is what I want. I don't want to just be done. Like I like I do. There's a part of me that, you know, just like I just don't want to come here anymore. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to talk about this situation anymore. But this is what I have to do to find out who did this. And this is important to me. And that's why I'm here. That's why I'm talking to you guys. I I know from before what these are like, what these conversations are like. I know what I have to go through for this [ __ ] And I'm sorry, part of my language. >> Don't worry about it. But I'm I'm here and I'm doing this and I'm talking to you guys about this and I'm taking all all this in >> because I need to find out who did this so that I can actually go out and live a life so that I can know and rest easy that the person who did this is in whatever hell they need to be in. I know you've taken a polygraph before. >> Yeah. And I really would prefer not to. >> Okay. Let me Things are a little bit different. Okay. With them. Like I said, this was this was the the disappearance. >> Mhm. >> When And I can tell you, we do it ourselves. We won't we don't send you to the FBI. We do it our >> They they came here. I mean, and they did it two more times. I've been through it three times, man. I really >> I think what you did take was a a voice analysis. >> Two of them were voice dress analysis. One of them was a polygraph. >> And I'm going to be completely upfront with you. >> They're [ __ ] And the reason why I believe that they're [ __ ] is because they kept telling me that I was being dishonest and I sat there and told them the truth. And I'm not going to go through that again, man. I'm not going to do that. I'm telling you everything that I know and I'm telling you that this is the truth and that thing does not tell you what the truth is. I I agree with you. You know, I mean, you're you're sitting there and you're you're seeing that stuff. You know, you're saying, "Hey, I'm I'm being honest." And you were saying, you know, maybe that in my mind I I did send her a text, you know, I really thought I send her a text, you know, and there's a discrepancy whether there was, you know, I understand where you're coming from on that. >> But besides all that, that text message has nothing to do with this. >> That text message, right, >> was me going to bed and I'm sending her a message. Like, that has nothing to do with this. Regardless of whether or not I sent it, it it has nothing to do with this. >> I I have, you know, the whole the whole storyline that I told you and the fact that it was it's cooperated call all the people involved. All of it is cooperated. This is what I did. You like they looked at my computer and looked to see if I was watching shows. I'm assuming they, you know, looked at my records. They looked into everything. Like the whole point was to find out what I was doing at that time. >> And I'm here to tell you what I was doing at that time. That story is not going to change. Those those words are not going to change. I'm not going to say anything different. I don't I don't have anything different. I'm telling you the exact series of events that occurred. Again, the polygraph does not tell you anything. It's not going to give you anything. It's not going to help you with this investigation because it has already said that I was being dishonest. And when the FBI did this, they told me things about this case that they said I was being dishonest about that actually now that she is found is complete [ __ ] >> For nearly half an hour, John went on about how pointless lie detector tests were, mixing in comments about family tensions and shifting relationships. Once the conversation wound down, detectives had nothing concrete to keep him there. In the end, all they could do was hand him a business card and suggest he reach out when he felt like talking again. The interrogations John sat through in 2015 and 2016 brought nothing new, no fresh details, no cracks in his story, only mounting frustration for investigators working the case behind closed doors. Still, police weren't about to let it go. Then in 2023, John agreed to another round of questioning. In hindsight, it wasn't the smartest move. A lawyer would have served him far better. >> Um, like I told you over the phone, there's a few things we want to go go with you with. Uh, like I said, this investigation is coming to a close on the prosecutor side of it. You know, I know you know that Fairfield PD was investigating it. The sheriff's office investigated it. I think me and you have talked once before. >> Mhm. And um there's just a few things that I still want to get your um your thoughts and your feelings on a few things. >> Um I know we're kind of texting your memory. It's going to be almost 12 years here shortly, but there again, um we're not trying to drudge up any bad times. >> I know. And that's that's really all it's this is to me like like and I'm not saying that it's all that what you're doing is to me. It's just that like >> that's kind of my tension right now. It's just like, you know, coming back through this again and again and again. So, >> right. And but there's times where, you know, I think I have a better I have a better handle now on know that talk to um some some people who were in your I guess your core group of people >> and uh you know, they told me some um I asked each person and gave me a story about Caitlyn >> and each one had a different story, but it was something it was how many how she touched their lives. >> Mhm. which was really kind of cool because each person told me something that no one else knew, >> right? >> Which was kind of cool. >> Yeah, that's right. >> It really was. And I have a better I think a better perspective how she was as a person and you know um >> Okay, that being said, >> um let's go back just briefly to when you were at the at the festival that night, you and Caleb on that Friday night. >> Okay, you guys go to the festival. um your thoughts on do you and in prior I'm gonna go back and forth when it comes to some of the statements you've given in the past. Um do you still feel in your thoughts and your feelings deep down do you still feel that um the person who would who could who had done this was an unknown person? Um, maybe that was kind of like you said, stalking or I think your words were u suspicious person that may have back in the day. >> I mean, honestly, yeah, because I can't I can't wrap my head around it being somebody I know >> really. >> That's really what it comes down to. >> Okay, so that being said, >> that's really all that I mean like and to tell you the truth, that's the only reason I'm giving that answer because I can't think of somebody that I feel strongly would have done something like that. >> We're not here to >> Yeah, I know. And and you got to understand like >> that's why I feel like this is all just like reminding me of everything and it's >> it's a lot. >> Sorry, >> dude. Don't don't you don't need no need no need to apologize. It really isn't. >> No, understand. It's a traumatic experience. >> Yeah. I mean, you've been through a lot. >> Yeah. >> You you you and your whole family has her and don't get me wrong her family. >> She has, you know, your whole >> It was her that died, man. Like it was her. >> Yeah. wasn't me and I feel guilty like she died. She doesn't get to live her life anymore and that's not fair. >> No, no, it's not. >> It's not fair. You know, that's one thing I've gotten from everybody who I've talked to and I I guess I have a better understanding of Caitlyn was um she lit up everybody's life for the positive and she is no longer here to do that anymore. >> I just like I said, like I told you over the phone, it would be different if she'd had a car accident. You can kind of move on because she it was an accident. This here was um this was purposeful. But I mean, on top of all of it, it just ropes me in. I am the statistic. >> Everyone looks at me and I am the statistic. So, I can't do anything about that. Everyone's already accusing me before I even look at them. >> Yeah. >> Before they've even met me or know me, before they even have heard the truth or what the truth actually is. And I'd love that peace of mind. I'd love to know the truth. I'd love to find out what happened. There's one there's there's thing there's something that you have to have in your own mind though is that being said people can people going to have their thoughts but um you know you've not been charged anywhere. Only thing we're doing is asking questions. >> I know >> at any point in time you get walk out that door and we're glad we're glad we're glad you I know that what you're going through. >> There was a moment there was a moment when all of it happened and I realized that I was not getting a hold of her no matter what I did. I called her dad. I called her mom. I called her >> until after you found that you she's missing. >> And there was a moment where I felt. I couldn't hold myself up anymore because it was loss. It was >> overwhelming. >> Tremendously so. And and to a point where it was so tremendously overwhelming that it was unforgettable. And whenever I have this, >> whenever we do this, >> it brings that moment in. >> And it doesn't matter what you say. It doesn't matter what you do. It brings me to this moment where I am in front of her house not knowing where she is or what I can do to help her or or keep her here or figure out where to go to find her. >> Mhm. >> And bring her home. And it was I had nowhere else to go, no one else to call, no other thoughts, no other opinions, no one else was guiding me. No one was telling me what to do. And even now, I have no one to tell me what to do or what to say. >> There's no there's no book. There's no script for this, but brother, there isn't. There's no script for you to to say, John, this is what you're supposed to do. This is how you're supposed to feel. I'm currently being told by my wife that I should bring a lawyer to these things, that I should do those things. And I'm not doing that because I don't think, first of all, I feel like I've already [ __ ] myself. If I if it came down to me needing a lawyer, I've already been here enough without one that it really doesn't matter what I say. I also know for a fact that I don't have anything that I can say that's going to make it seem like I did something except for obviously the polygraph situation which I don't fully understand and I don't I don't get why that happened or why it's like that >> but beyond that like I don't have anything I can say I don't have anything I can do or make you think that I did something because there is nothing there. There's nothing and I just >> Let me ask you let me ask you a question. That being said, do you feel and I I think I know the answer to this. Do you want me to keep looking? I told you that. Let me ask you ask a question. I told you this two years ago. It's been two years since it's been you talk last. I told you I was going to keep looking, didn't I? >> Yes. >> And where we at? >> Still looking. >> Yes. >> Keep going. Yes. >> Don't stop. >> I'm not. >> I'm looking you in the eyes just like I did last time. Do it. >> I am. That's what I'm here for. I told you I would never stop. That's one thing about me. I I I can't I'm too stupid to stop. >> And get the righting person. >> That's why that's why I'm asking I'm ask we're asking you to ask questions about because there's some things only you know. >> Okay. John's eagerness for investigators to keep searching seemed to vanish the moment the focus shifted back to him. Detectives pressed on his repeated insistence that he had looked for Caitlyn's phone during his search, even inside her car. But there was a detail in that account that didn't sit right. And the officers were quick to call him on it. >> If you can remember and and in big detail as possible, describe to me when you get to her car, you put the keys in. You put the key and you unlock her car or specific key fob. You unlock her car. What did you do? Look, look, look. Just looking for her phone. Just looking for her phone. >> Probably opened her driver's side door and looked through the center console. >> Okay. Did you go to the back of the car, Annie? I mean, I know you're probably >> No, I I really don't think so, but I may have like opened it and looked, but I or maybe I dug. I I don't remember. >> Okay. >> I really don't remember. >> Okay. >> I'm sorry, man. Dude, just no for you to apologize. We're here. We're here for the truth. >> But I want to get it. I want to give you the truth. I want to give you what I remember. >> I want you to I can I show you a photograph of her car. >> Yes. >> Okay. Now, I want you tell me these are both these going to be pictures of her car from the inside. Okay. Now, these are photographs of inside her car. Okay. Now I'm gonna These are Tell me if that looks like her car to you. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> That looks dirtier than I remember. >> Well, you know, you guys are young and she's she's going to school working two jobs and you know this is that's required for you. Okay. That's the out couple shots of the outside of the car. Okay. Now, here's my question to you. Caitlyn was about what? 5 foot three. >> Mhm. about 130 lbs maybe. >> Mhm. >> Okay. What do you notice about this photograph? >> That is far back. >> Yeah. >> Maybe I moved them when I was looking for the phone to look under the seat, but I I don't know. I really don't remember, man. >> Okay. Well, look look at both seats. Look at this is the passenger. >> They're both They're both back. So maybe probably like if I moved this one then moved that one and then moved them both back to look around. It's very possible. >> Well my question is that you know I mean would you have moved those seats because I I talked to the investigator who took his photographs and we actually even talked to the tow truck driver. He said we didn't we only thing the tow truck driver said he goes we pulled up onto the back. We backed it up. We drug it up on the skid or the you know the back the roll back and we stuck it in the garage and and that was that. He goes, >> "So my question is this. Both those seats been moved back like that. Is that is that alarming to you?" >> That is Yeah, that's weird. That's very weird. >> And this is the back seat when I'm showing you here. I mean, that's I mean, she's she can't reach those pedals from there. >> No, probably not. >> I would say not. I mean that that's that's a big question to us is like who in the hell is our car beside who in the hell is in that car besides her because she she she she ain't driving from the back seat. >> Well, like I said, I mean either maybe I looked through the car, but I I I hadn't driven her car recently. No. >> And you really don't remember if you I mean you said you don't remember >> the console, but >> yeah, I mean I don't remember. >> The console you're for sure about, right? >> Yeah. And likely I probably would have moved the seats up and back to check underneath or between the seat or you know to see if I could shake the phone loose from between the seat there. I mean like that. It's something I have done with my own car. I've done it with >> we all have >> you know. So yeah, maybe I did pull them back and forth. It's a high probability, >> you know, but I I definitely did not move or drive the car. I mean, now now you see why we we wanted you to come in. I mean, these this is this is troubling to me. >> That's strange. >> It is very strange. >> But like I said, I didn't move or drive the car at all. >> Okay. I was going to ask you mentioned ear earlier about um and I'm sorry again. I have not worked on this case like Paul. So, uh, I don't know. All you had mentioned that you and Caitlyn there was some tension or something that that >> it was it wasn't like a fight. Not at all. Um, what it really came down to was, um, Caitlyn was a little bit frustrated that I wanted to keep my night going. >> Okay. >> While she just went to bed, >> okay, >> but I basically kind of treated it like, uh, she'll get over it, >> okay? >> You know, and that that was the tension realistically. It was just just that I was just like she'll get >> So it wasn't like a argument? >> Not at all. >> Okay. >> No. No. Like I said, she was just disappointed that she had to be >> doing school stuff and here I go hanging out with friends and >> Okay. Then how did the the documents thing work? How did that >> I basically just got there and was like this is all of Caitlyn's stuff and you know >> they had a fire pit in the back but it was like slightly raining but I was just like I'm burning it. >> She burned it. >> I mean that's really what it came down to. >> I see. And she gave those to you before she before you left. >> Again the tension was there but she's handed me this stuff. We're still going to Colorado. There is no change there. >> Okay. You know, like everything is still exactly as it >> everything going as planned >> pretty much. Yeah. >> Another inconsistency soon surfaced. John told investigators that during the window when Caitlyn was likely killed, he had been at home watching three episodes of White Collar. But when detectives pulled his computer history, they uncovered something that didn't quite match his story. >> So, I did find something interesting. So, the the there's two three episodes three episodes of White Collar. Um, season two, episode 12, episode 13, episode 14. You said they're about 45 minutes a piece. Is that right? >> Okay. Then later in the day, I guess after you've gotten up, uh, you look at the plot summaries for the same >> No, I didn't. >> It's on your computer. >> I mean, I don't I don't know why I didn't look up any plot summaries. >> Yeah. I mean, so later in the day, um, I'm sorry, I'm converting this from the military time, but about 3:17, you look at the plot summary for episode 13, which is the one that you watched the night before, which just like maybe >> I don't I don't remember doing that. Did I look it up on IMDb? Like I don't I don't normally do that. So I don't know why. >> Yeah. There's So there is a synopsis basic plot summary uh for episode 13. >> Okay. >> And then a plot summary for episode 14. Um and that bothered me. I'll be honest. That kind of bothered me a little bit because uh in some of your viewing it kind of made sense because like maybe you're about to watch episode 10. I'm talking about like before like a few days before >> and so you looked at a plot summary for episode 9 and that kind of makes sense. We all understand that. What happened to episode? >> But it was weird to me that you would look at like a synopsis for something you had just watched a few hours earlier. >> Yeah. I don't remember doing that. I didn't do that. I slept and I mean it cooperatingly slept. You can ask my mom. I was asleep. >> Well, I I can tell you this. According to your phone records, okay, you made a phone call at I believe it was 2:24 that day. >> Papa John's. I don't know why you call Papa John's because you're going to be there shortly anyway. >> Okay. >> But there again, you call Papa John's. You also uh text message uh Nate Iden. So he one of your friends back then. >> Yeah. >> And I think you also text Katie Harris. >> Okay. >> And it was all prior to the 4:30, >> right? And this would have been at about 3:30 or 3:20 somewhere around there. And uh I'll be honest, John, it just it it was odd to me because I don't normally would look at a summary for something that I just watched like a few hours before. >> Yeah. I again don't know why it pulled up a plot summary, but it could be from me just like clicking back, you know, like exiting out of things, going back or or something like that. I mean, that could have easily been why, >> but I don't I don't generally look at plot summaries even days later. I just watch the previously on thing, which >> okay, >> those have. So, all of those episodes have previously on White Collar. >> So, I don't look up plot summaries. I don't know why that was on there, >> but maybe again it's because I had clicked back on it. Maybe there is a missing point where I did like look at my computer, talk to people. I I really don't know. And I'm honestly, you know, at a certain point, I just don't have an answer for you. >> Okay? Cuz like, so for instance, this is like at 3:17 that day. Um, you know, your computer basically has this IMD website which is u and I just I just plug this in and it takes you right here and this is this is the episode episode 13. This is the plot for episode 13 which uh which is what according to what you told Paul and I just and and what your computer says you know was what happened just a few hours before. Um, so when I see like synopsis, I'm like, "Oh, a synopsis of what?" I'm like, "Well, I thought John just watched that just a little while later earlier." So, >> well, and there's also a likely situation. Um, so wait, are these all in chronological order here? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, here I I'll show you, John. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't mind showing you this. I mean, >> yeah, we're not we're not hiding anything here from brother. So, this is obviously there was uh you're exactly right. There was a lot of porn, too. There's tons of tons of porn. There's there's tons of porn. So, I haven't put any of the porn on here. Okay. >> No, that's that's a given. >> What? This is But this is the Wag Collar episodes that you were uh talking about. Um so, and >> and this is at 3:00 a.m. or p.m. >> No, this is uh so this is in the morning. So this would be about um your computer shows activity at about you know 139 140 and then you watch some episodes of white color. Okay. And you told me they're about 45 minutes a piece. Okay. So you can see there's like time gaps between here and then uh then there's like a break in activity and then again yes like you said there's porn. I mean, whatever you got up there, >> probably looked at porn or whatever. >> That's porn. And then sprinkled in there are like these plot summaries. >> Okay. So, if I was waking up, I probably looked at porn and those were probably part of the like either I was clicking out of something or I was um like going through stuff. I mean, it could have just simply have been an accidental click. It could have been anything, but I wasn't reading pro plot summaries. >> Okay, >> they were just either I was obviously watching it the night before. I got on it the next day and these things were probably either still up on my computer and I moved around things to get to what I was doing there or what. I don't I don't know. But I didn't look at any class or read any. >> But you remember watching these? >> I remember watching those the night before. Yeah. >> Okay. >> All three of them. All three. I never specifically watched. >> I think it was like 12, 13, and 14. >> Okay. >> That's what I think your computer says. >> Was this normal to to go home and watch like I mean, were you kind of seemed like a night owl? >> Yeah, I stayed up late a lot. >> Okay. >> I'm sorry. Do you have to Okay. Okay. Go ahead, Paul. Thanks for >> That's okay. >> I wanted to try to figure that out. That still kind of is weird to me, but >> I don't I don't have an answer for you, though. I don't know what I don't know computers that well, either. >> Okay. Well, yeah. Actually, we had talked about this earlier and I I it is it is mega upload. So, you uh so how so mega upload was the the site that you use? >> Yeah. But I mean a lot of times especially with like synopsis and stuff there are they are like linked to each other and like if you click on the one thing then it'll it might open up both of them but I you know and I maybe was clicking out of something and it opened that up. Um, sometimes when you have the videos themselves up still, like as a background thing, um, when the thing is over, it'll automatically open. So maybe when I woke up the next day, it just finished the episodes and opened it. I don't know. >> Okay. >> But I can't explain computers to you. I have no idea. >> Okay. All right. All right. >> I can tell you what I know. And I know that I didn't look up those plots. I don't remember doing that. >> Okay. >> But that that's what I do know. >> Okay. All right. All right. All right. And did you go to Did you go to bed after watching this? You don't You don't remember? Okay. All right. All right. And you had to click on one at a time. Is that what you told me? >> How long would it take to download something like that? >> A while. A little while. >> So, a 45. No, no, it's too epic. Once you start like sometimes the videos are choppy and if you like sit there and let it load cuz it's streaming, you just let it load a little bit, it'll start working. So sometimes I would do that. Just kind of wait it out. But sometimes not. Sometimes they just worked. >> Yeah. I'll be honest with you, I'd never heard of White Color before. >> It's a really good show. >> I'd heard of it is but it's been a long time. It's it's uh it was on USA right few years ago. Okay. Okay. >> Good. Need a bathroom break? >> No, >> just I I mean I do eventually got to go back to work soon. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> We'll try to hurry this up. Um let's go back to her your guys' cell phones just briefly. Uh her phone goes goes dark at 12:06. never comes back on. >> Mhm. >> Your cell phone doesn't go dark. What we call we call dark. We call it goes inactivity at 12:04 and there's no activity for the next 14 to 15 hours. Is that unusual for you to >> No. No. I don't like sometimes, especially at that hour, >> there's no one texting me. >> Okay. >> And there's no one. And I don't look at my phone, especially at that time. I don't even know if I had a Facebook yet. like I didn't really look at my phone that often unless I got a text or I got something >> because we had someone look at the phone records back in the past and they said that was unusual for you to be receiving a text. Well, I mean there again even you at your own admission said you thought you sent Caitlyn a text at 4 in the morning saying good morning. >> So it was not unusual. You think it was unusual for you to be that many hours without any messages or phone calls or >> I mean I was already at the friend's house that I planned on being at and Caitlyn was in bed as far as I knew. >> All right. Have you talked to any of your buddies about what we talked about? What we talked to them about? me be like, "Man, >> I mean, I talked to Matt a little bit, but I >> John Palmer. You talk to him any Mike Palmer? >> Let me throw this at you. Okay. Saturday night, August 13th. Okay. Um, you go to your party with every street, burn the documents, correct me if I'm wrong, any point in time, and you come back to the house. >> Okay. We have um information that um this is from two different people that I will tell you the story. Two people are walking down the street and at approximately between what they say is 1:30 2:00 in the morning >> Mhm. >> they see or they hear they hear two cars coming and they are juveniles at the time. >> Mhm. And um they're scared to death because they are juveniles and you know how fairfield py how fairfield PD is with juveniles at that time of night. >> Mhm. >> It's late night and they see two cars pull up and um they hide they hide behind a tree, >> some evergreens that were in the area. They see two cars pull up and the two cars, the lights are blacked out. >> Mhm. >> And they see a red Ford Focus. >> Mhm. >> Pull into the driveway at your residence, 5101 West Sciota at the time, right? >> Mhm. >> And that was your address at the time, right? It was up with mom. and they see a darker blue four-door sedan right behind the Ford Focus. >> The red Ford Focus pulls into the driveway. Garage door opens up. Uh they see the car pull into the garage. Garage door shuts. The blue car stays on the street. >> Okay. Well, there's a problem. >> Okay. >> I didn't park in the garage. Okay, >> let me finish the story then. >> Okay. >> Um they um blue car stays out stays out on the street. Between five and 15 minutes later, garage door pulls back open. Car pulls back out. >> Mhm. >> Both cars are still blacked out and they go back the same way they come. Coming down west towards how you know the west side comes down towards your house. And they do they see the two cars. >> Red car pulls out, blue car turns around and they go the same way. They come back out heading back towards West Side, >> heading towards that would be what? River Road. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Same story they they've told they told they were heading and they were going to a party that night. Mhm. >> They were going to a party to go meet some girls and they said they are positive what they seen that night. >> Mhm. >> Now they >> I can't go ahead. >> Go ahead. >> No, no, no. You go ahead. I told you I told you the gist of the story. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I have my story. That's where I That's what happened. What I did >> um I don't park in my garage. I parked in the driveway every night. Mhm. >> Um, and I don't know what to say beyond that. >> Few details could have been more damaging to John's story. The teenagers who came forward had first spoken to police back in 2013, not long after Caitlyn's remains were discovered. Realizing they might hold the missing piece to a homicide investigation forced them to admit to officers and to their parents that they had snuck out of the house that night. When questioned separately, both teens gave nearly identical accounts, right down to the make and color of the vehicles they saw. They described cars with their headlights off pulling toward Caitlyn's home, then later slipping back into J's garage in the same manner. That doesn't sound like an evening spent binging a TV crime drama. It sounds like someone acting one out. And they were pretty and they've got a third person backing them up that he took them to the party and picked them up in close proximity to your house. The third person and they were like, "Oh [ __ ] that was that was weird." Cuz they thought they were going to get busted by Fairfield Police Department when in doubt it was a red Ford Focus and a blue four-door sedan. >> I I don't have anything for you. Those people I don't know what to tell you. That's not I told you what I did and where I was. I was at home the whole time. >> They were pretty certain about that, John. >> That's fine. >> And the time does match up with the computer. I mean, it's uh like you said, uh the you know, that time when I was showing you uh the time that these people say that you arrived >> is is consistent. Um >> I didn't go anywhere. >> I stayed home. You stayed home. I got home and I stayed home. And in fact, my stepdad uh would wake up ridiculously early to do work and he got up pretty early that morning to do work and my car was there in the driveway. Steve and my mom both parked in the garage. >> Okay. >> And they were both both of their cars were in there. I never parked in my garage. So that story is already flawed on top of the fact that none of that happened. None of it. >> Okay. >> I went home. I got inside. I watched my shows. I did porn. I laid down. I went to bed. >> Okay. >> I mean, that that is pretty much what happened as far as I can remember it at this point in my in this whole situation. Mhm. >> And uh I don't have you feel free to bring the witnesses in. I I don't know what to tell you. There's no more I can prove to you. >> They've already they gave statements. They gave statements back. And I mean, this is not something new. >> It really isn't. This is something they they did their statements um back in the day of of shortly after um Caitlyn's body was found because they didn't put two two together until like they were like, "Shit, that's what we seen that night. Okay. But I don't know I don't know who what they saw or who like I I can't tell you anything beyond that. >> Okay. >> There there was no blue sedan. I don't know whose blue sedan that could be. I don't even know >> who out of your friends was driving a blue sedan. >> Uh as far as I know there was Jeff who drove a blue Ford Focus but >> Yeah. But >> nobody else. No. >> And I didn't leave after I went home. >> You were home that whole time in the morning. >> Uh after the party, I'm pretty sure. >> I'm pretty sure. Yeah. >> You're pretty sure. >> Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, obviously, it's been years down the line. I understand that, but I didn't leave. I didn't like go drive my car somewhere, >> right? >> No. >> Jeff said he had he was seen you guys at the festival. I guess he showed up after work. >> Mhm. you guys I guess you worked there for the the big drawing at night. >> I wanted to try it. >> I don't blame you. Um and this is Jeff talking that he said hi to you. He he said he you seemed kind of out of sorts and he said um he I guess he said hi to you and you didn't say hi backwards which is unusual Jefferson because you guys are like you I think you would say that core group of guys. >> Okay. and that you didn't say hi to him. And he goes, "There was you can tell there was something wrong between you and Caitlyn that night." He said, "And I >> was she was frustrated that I >> to the point, dude." She says, "To the point, he says, to the point, dude, that it looked like they were going to break up." >> And I was like, "Damn, that's that's pretty I mean, I know what some other people have said that there was tension that night, but to the point you guys breaking up." >> No. No. >> So, Caitlyn wasn't having any second thoughts about moving to Colorado? >> Not that I'm aware of. No, she not that she had made me aware of. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, as far as like anything like that, if if she felt that way or if it seemed that way to him, that's all fine. But I was >> his observation. >> Yeah. I was not aware of that kind of tension or anything like that. Mhm. >> Caitlyn, I remember, was like already just kind of tense and frustrated, but all of that again had a lot to do with her getting ready for school to be over, for us getting ready to move. And there was just a lot of like things building up around that and just But the plan was still the same as far as I knew. Everything was exactly the way it was supposed to be going at at that particular time, right? So, >> did Caitlyn get frustrated with I mean you're now like you I mean you become a glass blower and you know you seem to have found your way and in life and stuff but at the time I think you were kind of bouncing around and and working as and she seemed to be I mean just my limited experience she seemed to be really motivated >> very artistic very driven >> working. Yeah, I think she was probably worried that I wasn't going anywhere or doing anything, but >> at the same time, like >> I had I still had drive. >> I still had an ability to to get things done. And for the most part, while she was in college, I was helping her through a lot of that stuff. Like, yeah, her dad paid for a lot of her groceries and stuff, but like I was a part of her life. I helped her through college. It wasn't just like I worked my ass off and I kept working >> and it wasn't just the money for me. That was for us and she knew that. >> Right. >> So, but there was was there tension sometimes over maybe having a little different >> No, we didn't have we didn't necessarily like I helped her but we didn't depend on each other for money. It wasn't like, you know, I was constantly completely flat broke, but I mean, no, it wasn't like it wasn't like we were fighting over that >> over money. That really wasn't ever a big deal. >> No, I didn't. I I wasn't thinking money. I was thinking more uh you know, sometimes one person has, you know, they want to get something out of life that's different than than the person they're partnered up with. >> No, I wanted to do art as well. I wanted to be a part of that idea too, but it, you know, no, it wasn't, it wasn't like that. >> Okay. Was you ever sleeping hard? >> Someone I thought someone had told me that you were um you had brought some you would write poetry every now and then. And a couple other people said you were writing a book. You are are you are you a writer? >> I wanted to I wanted to and no, not really. I mean, I like to write sometimes as like a hobby and sometimes I would write poetry for right >> Caitlyn or if I was really hard up and feeling bad, I could use poetry to help me kind of escape and um yeah, occasionally I would write stuff. >> So, you you ever talk about writing a book? Yeah, I had an idea for a book where a guy would and that honestly happened the idea for the book happened after Caitlyn passed away because the idea behind the book was that a person would lose somebody very close to them just like I did uh because I write my experiences, you know, I can't write something I don't know. and then um discover that in their dreams they're able to control the way that uh the future goes by going back into their dream and kind of trying to fix things. And there was a point when uh I was debating whether or not I wanted him to be able to go back and save the person he had lost or if that he had to accept the fact. And those just I just have thoughts. It wasn't ever written down as far as I know. >> Kind of like science fiction almost something. >> Yeah, I like I like sci-fi a lot. >> It sounds like a So, what was the So, the premise of the book and you said this happened after Kayn went missing, >> right? Okay. So, you came up with the idea afterwards, >> okay? And >> the idea you go in to try to fix >> the dream portion of the idea happened before Caitlyn. Okay. >> Because I h actually had a dream where this whole Matt comes into the room of my h of my apartment at the time, Matt Roamp, and he's like, "Check it out." There's like this rip in the space and I go into it and there's this woman and she goes, "I'm going to tell you how to travel through time." She grabs me and pulls me through the water and throws me forward and I land in my preschool like looking at myself and I'm like, "Whoa." I start talking to myself, saying, "This is going to happen to you. this is going to happen to you and then I wake up >> and it was just such an impactful dream that it made me want to write something that had to do with that. The idea behind not a time machine but a the fact that you can go into your own consciousness affect your dream which your dreams affect your day. >> Mhm. >> Right. If you have a scary dream you start off scared. >> Yeah. you know, so you change time by going through your own consciousness. And that was the whole idea and premise. And then the loss um idea came after Caitlyn because I was trying to use that particular type of writing for that reason >> and to to kind of work through what had happened. >> Yeah. And uh and I maybe have written like a couple of starters but nothing that actually unfolded into anything real >> because we I I gotta bring this up to you. I gota bring it up because I had heard that you were writing a book about um people mysteriously disappearing. >> Okay. So then that the book continues. >> Okay. >> Because he's been affecting everything in everyone's in his own brain and that affects reality. This causes you to jump through and please bear with me. >> Oh yeah, >> I'm following so far. So far. >> So the idea is is that universes are created every decision we make. >> Mhm. >> Each person creates the universe that goes along with their choices. Even animals >> right or left. >> Exactly. You know, so in that because you're doing these dream things and it literally you're going back in time to the dream of that consciousness and affecting everything for the following times after that dream. So the current era person goes back to before time affects a dream that then affects the trajectory of the future which is the alternate universe or the alternate choice. And this person goes back into his own head over and over and over again to a point where he starts bringing himself out of the realm of the decision making. You know, we started adding decision after decision which leads down to this path where the earth and everything around it wants to correct itself. And in order for it to correct itself, it has to evaporate. And so what happens is that all these people start losing their minds because they're they're on the fringe part of reality, the fringe re the fringe dimension where it's almost gone. There's almost nothing left. And so they start to lose their minds. They force people to leave them alone and back away. Again, this is part of a catharsis for me. Like when you're in trauma, it's what you want. you don't want to be around people. You don't want these people to talk to you, ask you questions, all of that stuff. So, it's just kind of like a cathartic kind of the earth is trying to correct itself and make things better. Um, or at the very least to transfer these people to a safer place, but it seems so violent coming out. And I'm also very into the idea of an inconceptual reality where we don't fully understand or grasp everything around us. However, with this, I'm trying to create this kind of conceptual idea that there's an edge. There's a point where you can't really change time. You can't change so many things >> before it starts trying to fix itself. >> Um because reality is fixed. Mhm. >> You know, reality happens and that is it. Shouldn't be able to change it. And that was why I wanted to come up with a retaliation for going over this uh theoretical border. You know, if we if we figured this out, if we figured out time travel really, then you know, there's got to be something that goes, "This isn't right. This isn't how the world works." At least that's what I was kind of going with. Mhm. >> And so, yeah, people would like lose their minds, leave me alone, and then they'd run into a room and they'd either burst into flames and their clothes would be on fire or they'd just simply disappear and their clothes would be just sitting on the floor. >> The end game >> like like in like the Avengers, they disappear. >> Yeah. It's like a snap, but it's really it's really random, >> you know? Like it's not supposed to be understood. That was part of the the whole story >> was that you weren't supposed to understand why you weren't supposed to be at the end of this movie and go, "That all makes sense." You're supposed to be at the end of this book or this movie. I call it a movie because that's how I see it in my head. >> But you're supposed to approach the end of this thing and go that I don't understand that. And that's okay. That was >> Yeah. You have to be okay without the understanding part of it. >> Yeah. So that was the whole point of those stories and that idea. >> Do you think this was your way with dealing with or or some of this thought process was how you dealt with Caitlyn's, you know, >> a lot of the thinking was Yeah. Um sometimes I would even write poetry and it would be just about the loss and how she's just suddenly gone and I don't know how to handle it. >> Mhm. You know, >> when you go when you go back though, are you thinking that you need to change things, things that you wish you had done differently or? >> Uh, no. And like I said, when I when I wrote that idea in that book behind it was like, do I let him save her and they move forward through the story or do I let him move on? And that's why I never really wrote it because I didn't know what to do. Like I wrote the first few parts, but >> So you think in the book you could go back to save her? Is that kind of what you're >> you? No, not necessarily. I think that in the book it was going to be an attempt to go back and save her. But ultimately, I don't think I would have wanted it to. >> I want to be as close to myself as possible. So I mean, I I can't believe that I could. Okay, let me I know we we had talked about this earlier, but the the car that the Paul talked to you about the statement that these people had made. No, not that. Your your red Ford Focus. >> Anybody else borrow your car back then? >> Not that I'm aware of. >> Anybody else drive a Red Ford Focus? That was your in your friend group? Uh yeah, there was one person, but I don't remember his name and he wasn't around very much. >> And Blue Sedan, the only one that you can think of is Jeff Rutley. >> Jeff's. Yeah. >> Okay. Not any of the other guys. Mike Palmer, John Palmer, any of the other guys? >> I cannot remember now. >> Okay. Um >> I just remembered that Jeff had a a blue Ford Focus because I had a red Ford Focus. Ah, so that makes you remember >> that just helped me remember it. >> Ford focus. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So the best of your recollection, you went home that night and watched White Collar episodes. >> Mhm. >> So the the statements about the the red, you know, the car returning and leaving. >> Yeah. I watched White Collar. I went to bed. >> All the stuff I had said before. I did not leave. I did not leave. >> Um, yeah, forgive me. I know I'm going over things I know you've probably gone over, but your phone also was something that I know was examined >> back then. Um, you deleted text messages between you and Caitlin. What was that? >> That was that was an utter and complete horrific accident. The idea was again, I'm not great with computers. I'm not at all. >> Um, and what I had done, the way that the phone worked, I went to just delete a few messages because it said it was going to start deleting all of my messages, if I didn't delete some so that I could receive messages. I had been receiving massive amounts of messages about Caitlyn, about everything. Mhm. >> So, as those started coming in, I started worrying that Caitlyn's messages would start to get deleted. So, I went through and carefully tried to select each one. And then when I pushed the delete button, it deleted all of them except for ones that seemed to be like pocket saved or something. I had like a handful of ones left behind, but it almost deleted every other one. like and I don't know why but I had given the phone they had all of the information. I had not deleted it before I gave it to them the first time and I really didn't mean to do that and I know what it looks like. >> Yeah, it looks I mean I'll be honest. I'm looking real aware of that but there's nothing I can do about that. It was a complete and utter accident. >> Right. Right. Yeah. I mean it they I mean again not knowing the case well as Paul I mean that was one of the things that stuck out to me is >> I understand that but at the same time like I said they had the phone there was nothing deleted when they originally had my phone the first time they took it. That was literally that day. They had my phone for hours and they didn't copy anything. >> I didn't make that mistake. I made the mistake of accidentally deleting it before they could make a decision to copy everything. >> Okay. And it was an accident to that you deleted. >> Absolutely. >> Kayla's messages. >> Absolutely. Because I did want to go back and read them. I did want to see them. I had messages from her going way back. >> So you I mean you accidentally deleted her whole >> everything. Everything but the ones that pocket dialed saved. >> Wow. >> I'm telling you, every message was deleted. And then and then they wanted to come to me and say, "Well, why weren't these messages deleted?" I can't explain why those got saved. >> I don't know why, but almost every other message I had was gone. I had like, you know how it shows the whole screen of messages? I had this many messages at the top of my screen, >> right? >> A lot of them got deleted and I did not do that on purpose. John insisted that nearly all of his text messages with Caitlyn had been erased. That turned out to be far from the truth. Investigators discovered that the only missing messages were those exchanged in the final hours before her death, a detail that raised serious suspicions. Many came to believe that those last conversations held evidence of a blowout fight or even the end of their engagement. Friends close to Caitlyn later revealed that she had been confiding in them about wanting to leave Jon. She reportedly felt cornered, admitting she no longer felt drawn to him, that his substance use pushed her away, and that their goals in life no longer aligned. She even expressed strong second thoughts about moving to Colorado with him, the very plan Jon clung to in his retelling of events for more than a decade. Is there anything else? >> Couple more things when it comes to >> I know about CL Farm. How many how many you how many people have you taken out there and on that route to your your dad's your dad's place out there? >> Just a handful. >> Just a handful of people. >> Yeah. And like >> the core group of people. >> Yeah. You >> mean that was probably your special place? Is that a special place for you? >> No. >> Your friends? I mean, well, I mean, >> it was fun to go out there, but that's because it was a lack of supervision. >> Was the only reason we went out there. Nobody was there to watch us smoke pot. >> But who' you take out different? Let me ask you. >> I've taken a few people out there. Matt, Jeff, I mean, almost everyone different times. But, I mean, to tell you the truth, like I said, I pretty much always used a map because it was always confusing. It was always confusing to drive through Indiana. >> But I also would just use my dad's directions at the same time sometimes if I remembered it cuz he would drive out there and then I'd be like, "Oh yeah, I went out there not that long ago. I could remember." But for the most part, yeah, I was didn't really go out there that often. It's like especially by myself. I didn't like going out there by myself cuz one time my battery died. Twice I've had a shotgun held to me by a neighbor who thought I was breaking into the property. Just not a big fan of >> your own your your dad's property. >> Yeah. >> Oh, so and they just didn't recognize you or >> Right. Right. Because it's my dad's property and I also didn't spend a lot of time there. So he did not recognize me very well now. >> Okay. You can understand why that. I mean obviously I know where Caitlyn's remains were found. I'm aware of it. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um I mean it's out there in Indiana. It also seems to me again Paul knows this case a lot better than me. Uh I think the reason why he's asked you about the circle of friends is it it doesn't seem that there would be a lot of possibilities of of of this type of crime, you know. uh >> outside of like immediate friends. Is that >> outside of of a small group of people? And then the body is found in Indiana. Um that doesn't seem like that would be some random random person or random crime. I will tell you this, John. >> It's not my job. >> All all your court group friends I've talked to and I mean all of them have all said the same thing. Caitlin's not open that door just for anybody. So I mean the whole the whole adage of who then >> yeah I don't know you know >> I don't know >> that's that's what they say you asked me my speculation I told you I don't know >> and that's what I mean I always wanted to know how you felt >> even to this day because sometimes >> hindsight's 2020 you know it's been 12 years >> I just you still but what you're asking me is not just do I think that somebody I know killed her do you're asking me do I think my friends killed Yeah. >> And how do I answer that >> truthfully? >> I mean like I don't know who to >> deep down deep down. I want to know what John >> Have you looked into John Harris who recently killed himself because I've always wondered about him and I don't feel like anybody's ever really done anything about that. I don't understand why and I don't understand a lot. >> Understand? But I don't know. And I don't know who to point a finger at. >> I've dug. Trust me. But I mean, how do I get that answer? How do I come to that conclusion? Is it a feeling? >> I don't [ __ ] know. >> I I'll take anything I can get. I'll take your feeling because you are the >> the only feeling I I've had one feel I had a feeling about John Harris for some [ __ ] reason and I don't know why. >> I've had a feeling about everyone at one point or another. Yeah, >> understandable. >> And the finger has been pointed to everyone >> and sometimes >> but that's the other thing >> unfairly. But that's the other thing. I don't I don't have an exact answer. What you ask me what my thoughts are? I mean that I don't I don't know. >> Thoughts and feeling. I mean because I know >> I'm giving you everything. >> Thoughts thoughts is one thing. Feeling is another is something else sometimes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And maybe again maybe I'm a I'm blurry on my morning before I left for work but >> because some things but I didn't go anywhere. I didn't go do anything. And I had nothing to do with Caitlyn going missing or not being there. And that that's what I can tell you. >> Mhm. Well, I mean, she did go missing, but then her remains were found. So, I mean, it's it's worse than just missing. >> I had nothing to do with her murder. Do you do you need me to say that? Because I did not do anything to her to kill her. >> I think that's the first time I ever heard you say that. I did not kill her. I did not murder her. I did not take her. I did not do anything to to threaten her life. I did not have an accident. And to tell you the truth, if ever there were an accident, I would never be able to hold that in. I would not be able to look you in the eye right now. And I can tell you that 100%. I did not do anything to hurt that woman. I loved her and I had a life planned with her. And I was not about to lose that. And the fact that I even managed to get to this part of my life to what I can do now is something I never thought I could do. I am sorry for the indiscreances and this and the things that you're seeing with my computer, with the phone, with the witnesses who apparently saw me leave a garage that I don't park in. But you see, but you see why. But you see why. >> I can see why you're asking the questions. >> I just want you understand. >> I can see why you're asking the questions because you have to cover everything. But what I am telling you is what I know to be true. >> Right. >> 100%. >> Right. Well, and I think we've talked about the stuff >> that I've looked at that I'm like, "Oh, that." >> Dude, do you feel like I may have even helped in your understanding of it or do you still feel totally lost? >> I think you No, I'm I don't think I'm totally lost. I think you've gone over and given me an explanation, your explanation. So, I mean, and you helped me understand what I'm seeing. Um, I mean, the text messages still bother me, but you've given me an answer. You've given me an answer to that. Okay. So, I I you know, I don't I mean, unless you're not telling me everything, then the answer is is what it is, right? I I'm I'm glad that you've been cooperative. I'm glad you come in and talked with us. Um, >> well, and I >> there's a lot of things that I I'm I'm sure you wish I wish you you probably wish you had those text messages so you could say, "Look, Mike, right here. >> Here. Here they all are. I would totally give them to you." Basically, I would really prefer not to have to do this anymore. Now, I understand if there's some sort of indictment that I'm going to have to go to court um or something of that nature. Is that likely? >> Like I told you on the phone, >> um I think it was Chelsea Johnson case, the one in Fairfield, the the prosecutor's office, we have we have we I'm a deputy sheriff. >> I remember you saying that that you you would put it in and then they might not do anything for a while >> because grand juries do what grand juries do. What they do is we we we present everything we have to them and especially to get it because none of this is there's not even a case number for this at the prosecutor's office. So, we get it on the record because if somebody does come in at some point in time, there's no record of [ __ ] >> You see what I'm saying? There's we get it on the record, but let the grand jury hear all the testimonies that we have. >> And they will either indict or they what they do, well, they'll kick it back or they'll do they want to indict nothing. They'll call what's called a no bill, which is mean the case is still pending till further investigations are done. >> So, that's what happens. >> Okay. >> So, that's that's basically that's where we're at with this. Like I was telling your uh telling your your fiance or your your wife is that um the reason why I was kind of pushing for this because I've talked to all your friends one one last time talk to you for this very reason we did we'll be here today. >> I greatly appreciate it but I have to write up my report of what we found and these last questions that we have and basically and I'll write it in my report. I will submit this to the prosecutor. Um, and we will go he will go from there. I mean, he he'll say either he doesn't have to present this to the grand jury if he doesn't want to. >> He can say yes, no, or continue researching. >> So, he's got me he has the he's the prosecutor. Well, and I'm I'm going to say this um finally at this point. Um you may find discrepancy, but you will not find any evidence for me. And I can promise you that because I was not involved in Caitlyn Markham's death in any way. So I just want to make sure that that is >> or the disposal of her body >> or the disposal of her body or anything to do with her disappearance or anything surrounding the incident that we are discussing today. The only thing I had to do with it was that I loved her and I was in a relationship with her and that was it. That we were connected. That's it. And beyond that, there's nothing else to find on me. >> Okay? >> And that's what I I really want you to be clear on that because I can promise you, you're not going to call me in here or you're not going to have a grand jury bring me in because of evidence existing. >> On March 22nd, 2023, John was indicted by a grand jury, the result of a mountain of circumstantial evidence built over more than a decade. As you'll see, he was caught completely off guard. And his reaction makes it clear he wasn't prepared for the secret he had carried for years to finally surface. You >> okay? >> Yeah. >> Comfortable? >> Yeah. >> Has it started? >> Yeah, I think so. I think >> before we get started, we have to read your murder warnings. Okay. >> Okay. >> So, I think Mr. Regal here, you met Mr. Regal before? >> Yes. Yes. >> Knowing these rights, do you wish to talk to me without having a lawyer present >> for the time being? Yes. >> Okay. >> What's happening? >> Um, this is what we call I think you would and I know you were probably a avengers fan, wasn't you? This is what we call the endg game. The end game is um we went to a grand jury. You know, your mom testified before the grand jury because we want her to have her say and input in that grand jury that proceeding and the grand jury has u indicted you. >> Why? >> They not because they don't they feel that there's enough probable cause that this case proceed further to the common police court. >> Okay. So they believe um they have permission that we had and uh they you've been indicted and >> for what? >> Murder. >> I Okay, but what evidence? There's nothing. >> There's you're you're thinking of there's evidence has got to be uh fingerprints. Uh >> no, I mean >> I mean there's there's things called circumstantial evidence. >> Okay. Okay. And there's a lot of And I mean, you've already talked about the circumstantial evidence, the red flags. That's circumstantial evidence. >> Okay. But I have nothing to do with her death or disappearance or any of that. So, >> that being said, that being said, >> okay, I'm listening. >> We are we are at the point in time now to where this is where u you need to come clean with what everything happened that night because here's here's the thing, dude. Dude, I'm telling you the whole your the whole stories that you've been giving the the inconsistent stories you've been giving them being the police department, the media, and everybody else since 2011 has come to a point now to where no one's believing the story. Okay. The whole story about the the unknown suspect or individual who was at the the uh at the the festival following you and Caitlin to her house, I >> no one's believing that. Okay. >> They didn't believe it when when when you first come out with it. >> Okay. But that was just like a thought. I mean, like you asked me my theories and I gave you my thought, but I don't >> You told No. No. No. No one asked you that question. That's the question you gave to the 911 operator day one. Okay. >> Okay. >> So, that >> I thought I thought maybe that could be a possibility, but I'm not saying that's my story. I don't know what the [ __ ] happened. I have no idea what happened. That's not a story I gave you as an excuse or any other thing than just there could have been any reason. And I thought maybe that would be the most likely scenario because it seems unbelievable to me that anyone I know would do that to her. >> Okay. >> But I'm not I'm not I haven't made any lies. I haven't told you anything that didn't happen. So maybe my stories are different sometimes here and there. >> Sometimes, >> John. >> But but there's >> you have your story has evolved constantly over the past almost 12 years >> because it's been 12 [ __ ] years. >> Yeah, but your story is not this. It's never the same story twice. That's the best part about all this. It's never the same story twice. >> What are you talking about? What part is inconsistent or different? You should you you filled out. Do you remember filling out a a a form early on like >> Yeah. Just writing down everything that >> writing down everything you talked about the events of that day and it's like tell us about Caitlyn and you wrote she is kind she has a snaggle tooth. You remember that form that was >> vaguely vaguely. So you wrote down a whole sequence of events uh from the day before and the day after the um in August and it and you have events that just like they couldn't have occurred like they couldn't have occurred like you know about your mom coming back from David's bridal and you had all of these other things happening and then you called the police like John like I read through it and I went through it and I read read it and went back over it and this is this is right after it happened to me. >> Okay. Can I I I >> say what you got to say, brother. >> I don't I don't have anything new to tell you. So, if we're just going to sit here and question me or question >> or expect or expect me to let me get this out to you, okay, let me let me tell you what this this is where this is where I'm going to tell you >> something to do with her death or disappearance. And that's really >> right now as of right now. As of right now, okay, if you want to tell us what really happened that night, I'm willing to listen. The prosecutor, the prosecutor is willing to listen. No, but we don't want to hear no more of this nonsense of but this un this this unknown suspect following you guys. >> I'm not giving you that. Okay, that's not that's the unknown suspect following me thing. Okay, fine. What I have been telling you and what I've been trying to say is I have no clue what happened to her. What I what I did what I said, "Okay, then then we're done. >> I'm fine. >> I'm going to need I'm going to need to get my lawyer." Yes, please. >> Okay. >> Yes. Because you'll be gone. >> Can I please have a full phone call? >> Yes. When you get to the jail. >> All right. Um John, it's 4:58 p.m. Okay. Okay, I'm going to put down 458. Attorney requested. >> I can't believe this. >> Well, you need to believe it because it's happening right now. >> Well, I mean, but what you're doing is like it's literally No, what you what has happened, what has transpired is just it's unbelievable because I really have nothing to do with any of this with what you're what you're accusing me of. I have nothing to do with it. >> John, look, >> I didn't I didn't have >> He's invoked. >> Yes. Look, you you've invoked your rights, okay, at this point. So, we really can't go any further. Understand? >> Fine. >> Okay. So, I'm writing it down at 4:58 p.m. And should we stop the interview at this point? >> Yes. Yeah. >> John Carter's trial quickly morphed into one of Ohio's most dramatic courtroom battles in years. Initially facing two murder charges, he ultimately accepted a plea to involuntary manslaughter. essentially admitting guilt in exchange for a lesser offense. Despite a push from his defense for probation, the judge made his stance clear. Carter showed no remorse. As a result, the judge imposed the harshest sentence allowed under the law, 3 years in prison. It might sound startlingly lenient for taking a life, but here's why that sentence exists under Ohio law. Involuntary manslaughter is treated as either a thirdderee or in some cases a firstdegree felony. In most situations like Carter, the punishment range tops out at 3 years unless multiple aggravating factors are present. This explains why despite the gravity of the crime, the law capped his sentence at such an unexpectedly short length.