Is he being detained on a traffic violation? Y'all, he's not driving. I have the right to identify anybody in the vehicle. Only if you suspect him of of a crime. >> Registration is out on your vehicle. So, I could arrest you if I wanted to. >> Uh well, I don't think that's an arrestable offense. What happens if I don't sign it? Well, you're refusing to sign, you'll go to jail. >> No, my signature is not voluntary. I'm doing it because if not, you're taking me to jail. In this video, what begins as a routine speeding stop quickly turns into a constitutional conflict. The officer shifts focus from the driver to the passenger, demanding ID despite admitting there's no suspicion of a crime. Under the Fourth Amendment, identification generally requires reasonable suspicion, raising a key question. Can a passenger be compelled to identify themselves without a lawful basis? So, are you familiar with Penal Code 38.02? Yeah. What does it say? >> Very well. What does it say? You have an ID on you or not? You need to You need to lawfully arrest him. No, I don't have to lawfully arrest him. I can I don't have to. Is he being detained on a traffic violation? Y'all, he's not driving. It doesn't matter. He's being detained at at a traffic stop. I have the right to identify anybody in the vehicle. Only if you suspect him of of a crime. Does 38.02? That's what I'm I'm going to do is see if he has any warrants or anything for his arrest. >> Well, you suspect him of having any warrants? Could be, yeah. >> Well, you have to articulate your uh reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime. Courts have consistently held that a could be suspicion is not sufficient. Reasonable suspicion must be based on specific, observable facts, not generalized assumptions. You're You're breaking the law twice. >> Well, you You're talking to me, then. Yeah. Okay. He's a He's a passenger in a vehicle that that the law's being broken. Okay, you were speeding number one, number two, you're you're >> Allegedly speeding. Allegedly speeding. >> Allegedly. I thought you were allegedly 84 in a 70 is not allegedly. That's an allegation. I haven't been convicted of that. >> You're You're Uh registration is out on your vehicle. So, I could arrest you if I wanted to. >> Uh well, I don't think that's an arrestable offense. >> Yes, it is. Traffic violations like speeding or expired registration are typically non-custodial offenses. Arrest authority is limited and must align with state law and constitutional protections under the Fourth Amendment. >> The only The only two non-arrestable offenses speeding and open container, which you You have a speeding violation and and you you don't have an open container, but you do have expired registration. I can have this vehicle towed and you can be arrested. >> To To To be To be towed, I have to be convicted of the crime. You are convicted. You're driving a vehicle >> been to court. You're You're being Okay. Do you have an ID on you or not? >> Am I required to give it to You are required to give it >> Do you have a supervisor? I sure do. >> Okay. We'd like to talk to him. Okay. I'll I'll I'll I will let you talk to him and if I have to, I'll have him come out here. But yeah, yeah, I'm requesting a supervisor. Okay. All right, good deal. Hello. Hi. Hi. I pulled this guy over uh 84 in a 70 on on 119. Asked him for his driver's license and insurance and of course he's are you aware of Penal Code yada yada yada all this and that. Well, he's got expired registration on the vehicle. Uh asked the passenger for his identification. He wouldn't give me his identification at all. Uh he's asking for a supervisor to make location. They're asking for a supervisor to make location on a traffic stop? Yes. Where are they from? Uh San Antonio. I told him I told you know, I told him you know, that that you know, he's in violation of the law cuz he was speeding. He said, "No, I was allegedly speeding." And I said, "Well, you also have expired registration." And uh he said that uh that the uh that he hasn't been convicted of that. So, I there's nothing I can do about it. Are they uh >> I I have no idea. Some of It's two Hispanic gentlemen. Two Hispanic? Yeah, I told him you know, he could be arrested for for uh uh the registration and the vehicle could be towed. And he he sitting arguing with me and sitting there No, I can't do that and and uh that I need to have He's requesting a supervisor to make location. Okay. Let me call Chief, tell him what's going on, and then I'll call you back. Okay. All right. Bye. Okay, you there? Yeah. Okay. The guy didn't have an ID and uh he's refusing to cooperate with the traffic stop, correct? The The What What is going on is the the driver I went up I introduced myself, this Deputy Kelly, you know, blah blah blah, uh and I asked him for his license uh and insurance. And he handed me his license. He hadn't handed me his insurance yet and and then I asked uh I asked the uh the passenger, I said uh "Can I Can I see your Do you have an ID or or can I get your name and date of birth?" And he goes, "Am I committed Have I committed a crime or am I uh uh suspicious of committing a crime?" And I said, "No." I said, "But we check everybody that you know, we have the right to check anybody in the vehicle to you know, just to see if you know, to identify yourself number one, see if you have any you know, any if there's any issues or whatever. Warrants or whatever." And uh he said, "But have I committed a crime?" And then the guy said, "Well, you're aware of Penal Code such and such and such." And I said, "Yes, sir, I am." And uh he said, "Well, you need to you need to read over that, you know, a little bit better or something." I said, "Well, you also have committed a you know, uh a violation with expired registration." And uh and I I said, "You So, you You guys are being detained on a traffic violation and that's why I'm asking for you know, identification from both of you." And he then he goes to say, "You know, I'm alleged I I You know, you're alleged you know, I'm not be I haven't been convicted of the of the speeding violation." I said, "But you you do you know, have expired registration." He said, "But the The passenger's not He's not driving the vehicle. Why do you need his identification?" And I explained it to him again. He goes, "Well, I need your supervisor to come out here." Well, supervisors are off and Chief said I'm not coming out. Okay. Uh get Mr. D or Brandon out there with you? Uh-huh. Uh Chief says cuz at the time I I I got the two males. And tell him to make sure the guy has an driver's ID. He He the driver gave me his identification. I ran him and he's clear. Uh Okay. But there you know, he's being a you know, the passenger's not cooperating, you know, they're driving 84 mph in a 70 mph zone. So, but the passenger's not uh not uh cooperating. Okay. Well, the passenger's technically Well, we can request, but he doesn't have to. Sure. >> Okay. Uh You Tell Tell the guy he's going to be cited for an offense. And this if he refuses to sign, tell him I'll take him to you guys over to the magistrate. You're under arrest. Okay. So, if he refuses to sign the citation, then then arrest him. Here, another officer acknowledges a key point. A passenger is not required to identify themselves without a lawful basis. This directly contradicts the earlier claim of automatic authority. Right. And tow the vehicle and give the passenger a ride back to the office and let him sit back. Okay. All right. Tell him, you know, you're waiting You're getting the whole still waiting on a supervisor or whatever you want to do. Okay. But how far out is Major from you? Uh he's in Cuero. Okay. Where's uh D at? Marsville. He's actually probably closer. >> Yeah, well, my I mean, he's on his way. Okay. So, are you Uh Tell him you're you've been on the phone with supervisors. There's no supervisor on duty at this time. Uh-huh. Is that Uh make sure your cameras are all rolling good. Yeah. Uh tell him, you know, you got the alleged uh speed or the speed. Uh-huh. We have uh expired registration. Yeah. Is the insurance good on the vehicle? >> I I don't know. I hadn't got his insurance card and I I you know, I I've just got you know, got on the phone with Right. Well, I told Ask dispatch to radio with you and confirm his insurance. Okay. 1216 County, can you confirm insurance on that vehicle? 1216, insurance is confirmed expired May 16th, 2018. Received. Are you there? Yeah. Okay, yeah. Chief agreed with me. He said it was him calling. If he refuses to sign the ticket, hook him up. Uh-huh. If PC affidavits on him, you know, he used the speed and expired registration. Make sure you get good pictures. Okay. Take him in. Uh tow the vehicle. Have the passenger ride with D to the office. Okay. And to the office and tell him to get somebody there to pick him up. Okay. Cuz you know, if they refuse to sign, which is a promise to appear, we got to take him in and give him a magistrate right away. Okay. Uh Now, I thought that if if you uh were asked to identify yourself, you had to. Only if there it's in commission of a crime or an investigation. Okay. Because he's just sitting there as a passenger, he doesn't have to. Okay. All right. Now, if the guy said if you go to tell the vehicle and the guy says well, I don't want to register him. Well, I can't do he won't identify himself, so I don't know who he is and if he's got a valid out-of-state driver's license. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Good deal. All right. Call me back when you need me. All right. Bye. All right. Bye. All right. This is going on. I uh pulled these guys over 84 in a 70. Approached the vehicle, introduced myself. Told him you know uh so he handed me his ID. He never gave me his insurance card. Uh so I asked the passenger, "Hey, you know, do you have any identification on you? Or can I can I get your name and date of birth?" And uh he kind of sits back in the corner and he's like, "Am I committed of a crime?" You know, and I was like, "No, sir, you're not at not at this time, but we do you know, we do check everybody in the vehicle and make sure they don't have any local warrants or anything and you know." He said, "Well, do I have to I I said, "Well, I'm asking you to identify yourself. Can you identify yourself?" And then I asked the guy the driver, you know, he's "Are you familiar with penal code 36 whatever, you know, blah blah blah?" And then I noticed that there the registration's out. So, you know, I tell him you know what the kid the kid kept arguing with me saying you know, "Well, I'm not you know, under arrest or I'm not you know, suspected of any crime, so I don't need to identify myself." I said, "Well, actually I said, sir, you're you're in violate you're in with two violations." I said, "One for speeding." He said, "Allegedly speeding." He said, "I haven't been committed of that yet." And I said, "And you're driving a vehicle with expired registration uh which is an arrestable offense, so I could arrest you for it." And uh he goes, "No, that's not an arrestable offense." And I said, "Yes, sir, actually it is." I said, "The only two are non-arrestable offenses are speeding and open container." Well, he kept arguing with me arguing with me blah blah blah. Driver's license and insurance I don't know. I I want to speak to your supervisor. Can you have him come out on location?" So, I called Carver, told him what was going on. And he told me to have one of y'all make location. And uh Well, uh if the guy refuses to sign the ticket, he said arrest him. And since the other guy didn't uh identify himself, tow the vehicle and have that guy uh take him back to the office and just let him sit there until he gets a ride. Uh as far as the passenger, no, if there is my understanding is if there is no they are not crime true. True. True. That is true. It is true. >> For the passenger. Yeah. Yeah, he doesn't he doesn't have to identify himself. I'm just going to go up there and say, "Look, you're going to get a citation for this." If he refuses to sign it, then he said put one of them in your car and one of them in mine and haul them in. This moment highlights a clear admission. The passenger had not committed a crime and was not suspected of one, reinforcing that any demand for identification lacked constitutional justification. Yeah, cuz you you you told him that by signing this because of Yeah, promise Yeah. All right. All right, sir. I need you to sign here across the top. It's not admission of guilt, just stating you contact the court on or before uh the 22nd of February. All right. It's a good question. Mhm. What happen if I don't sign it? Well, you're refusing to sign, you'll go to jail. I go to jail. Yeah. Okay. So, what I'm just trying to get across, my signature is not going to be voluntary. Going to be under threat >> It's just a promise that you're going to contact the court. That's what that's what your signature is is promising. My signature is not voluntary. I'm doing it because if not you're taking me to jail. Okay. That's the only way. That's the only reason I'm signing this. You're you're you're you're signing saying that you're going to go to court on or before this date. That's what that's what your signature regardless if you want to sign it or not, that's what that signature is for. Yeah, just just for the record, my signature is not voluntary and I'm signing this because if I don't sign, you take me to jail. That's what you said. >> What you're doing when you sign that is you're promising that you're going to go to court regardless if you volunteer it or not. Well, I'm saying my signature is not voluntary. Uh my signature says I'm going to go to court. Yes. But my signature is not voluntary. Well, that that is a ticket. I don't I don't understand what you're saying. What What I'm trying to say is you're making me sign it because if not I go to jail. No, I'm asking you to sign it. It's up to you whether you want to sign it or not. It's under Yeah, it's under threat to arrest and coercion. I mean, if I don't sign it, I go to jail. That's That's the only reason Well, if you don't go to court, you go to jail. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but right now if I don't sign, I go I go to jail right now. Yeah, so the basically all this is saying is you're going to go to court. If you don't go to court, then you get a warrant and you go to jail. You're hearing, but you're not listening, sir. So, you're saying you're saying he's saying that if he if he doesn't sign it, you're threatening to take him to jail. No, I'm not No, what I'm saying Okay, he would go to jail and be magistrated because either way you're going to get magistrated. Sure. Okay, so either way it's either do it now or do it later. However you want to do it. Either you go see a judge now You either go see a judge now or you go see a judge later. So, it's however you want to do it. Okay. All right. Here's your ID. Uh There's your citation. All right. This is a courtesy card. All right. Like I said, you got you you have until the 23rd of at 9:00 a.m. to contact the judge on the charges that you're being charged on. Okay. Slow it down and have a good day. This encounter shows how a routine stop can escalate when legal limits are misapplied. Under the Fourth Amendment, officers need reasonable suspicion to detain or demand ID, and the officer admitted that standard wasn't met for the passenger. It also reveals confusion about arrest authority for minor violations and citation procedures, highlighting the importance of understanding constitutional boundaries.